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View Full Version : First off... which electrolytes NOT TO USE!



MikeP
03-29-2008, 07:32 PM
I'll compile a list of which electrolytes NOT to try, because they are harmful to yourself and other people.

1. SALT (Sodium Chloride) <creates small amounts of chlorine gas>

(msg me if you have a solution to add to this list)

alba
04-04-2008, 08:54 AM
I would like to know what is the consequences using salt..

bagrman
04-04-2008, 09:32 PM
one is that it will make up Chlorine gas,
2 you are putting salt residue into your motor to burn? Don't know the long term effects that would have.

MikeP
04-05-2008, 04:48 AM
Using Salt as an electrolye is not only bad, but also ineffective.

So far the best "safe" mix I have found is 8 parts epsom salts, to 3 parts baking soda, per 2-2.5L of water.

it is the most conductive, thus draws the most amperes, thus works the best.

Every spoon added increased the amps drawn on the plates. Up until reached the max.

reason
04-22-2008, 03:57 PM
Thanks for the tip Mike.how are you measuring the parts?

CaptainAwesome
05-11-2008, 07:09 PM
Using Salt as an electrolyte is not only bad, but also ineffective.

So far the best "safe" mix I have found is 8 parts epsom salts, to 3 parts baking soda, per 2-2.5L of water.

it is the most conductive, thus draws the most amperes, thus works the best.

Every spoon added increased the amps drawn on the plates. Up until reached the max.

I'll have to pick up on my chemistry skills, it's been a while since I studied it, but wouldn't using baking soda produce CO2?

Again, I'm not sure at this at all, I will really have to look it up but I'm gonna guess it goes something like this:

2NaHCO3 + H2O + Energy(electricity?) = 2H2 + O2 + 2CO2 + 2NaH
(or maybe = 2H2 + 2CO2 + 2NaOH?)

..and then in a second step the Sodium hydride (or like Na and H ions i guess) would produce some more H2, but I'm not sure what would happen to the Na in there :)

If no one beats me in explaining this I think I'll find the old books and try to figure it out.


Oh right, my point being, is it wise using an electrolyte that will make your car produce CO2 and if so, it's probably a good idea separating the H2 and O2 from the CO2 before it's combusted.

ENURO12
05-13-2008, 11:47 PM
Caustic Soda is perhaps the most commonly available and most effective. Their is another xxx E500 i'll find the full chem name.

Their are lots of side effects of Caustic Soda so follow the warning labels!

roller24
05-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Im using Ocean Water, it works very well, but I get hot after about 20 miles.
I have 12 SS outlet covers 6+ / 6- about 3/8 inch apart. Im using threaded rod as connectors and am experiencing excessive corrosion. the HHO production is rapid though. I went from 28 hwy to better than 30mph around town. I havent pinpointed the hwy mileage, but will post that later.

Im considering mounting the unit on the front of the car for air cooling.

hmfdesigns
06-24-2008, 12:54 AM
when using baking soda you are only making about 66% hydrogen and almost 30% carbon dioxide and even a littel carbon monoxide...not sure the exact figures anymore.

my tests have shown potassium hydroxide is by far the best and other than it stains clothes it does not really have an effect ...it does tingle a little if you touch it but thats a given with anything caustic

ELECTR0N3RD
07-03-2008, 03:59 AM
Using Salt as an electrolye is not only bad, but also ineffective.

So far the best "safe" mix I have found is 8 parts epsom salts, to 3 parts baking soda, per 2-2.5L of water.

it is the most conductive, thus draws the most amperes, thus works the best.

Every spoon added increased the amps drawn on the plates. Up until reached the max.
I'm not 100% clear on this sorry if i sound dumb but, why is epsom salt any different from regular salt?, what is it? i know women use it in a bath once in a while for there personal care, but how does it differ from regular sodium chloride? is it like sea salt?

Stratous
07-03-2008, 07:24 AM
Sodium Chloride (salt) releases Chlorine gas when used in an electrolyzer. Clorine gas is poinsonous, and is corrosive. Not that it would hurt you, but its not going to help either.

computerclinic
07-03-2008, 08:29 PM
potassium hydroxide, isnt that potash?
Where do I buy it, and what do I ask for when calling around for prices?

ELECTR0N3RD
07-03-2008, 08:38 PM
I think i will just stay with baking soda, or maybe try this "Lye" thing everyone is screaming about.

computerclinic
07-03-2008, 08:52 PM
Sodium Chloride (salt) releases Chlorine gas when used in an electrolyzer. Clorine gas is poinsonous, and is corrosive. Not that it would hurt you, but its not going to help either.

I figure that introducing the water into the engine and exaust will have enough of a long term impact to deal with, let alon having to replace gaskets and other seals along the way...Salt is good for the bench, but I would like to know about something that is going to be much more stable and safe for the engine as well as the generator.

Lye is getting alot of talk around the boards, but it is really harsh stuff....I guess it is all about compromises and good chemistry....

Can anyone tell me where to find Potash, and any potential hazards?

grytvikken
07-06-2008, 09:59 AM
what about the effects on an aluminium engine of some of the more popular electrolytes? this stuf lye wouldnt the gas produced have a nasty effect on the engine over a long term?

Stratous
07-06-2008, 10:12 AM
what about the effects on an aluminium engine of some of the more popular electrolytes? this stuf lye wouldnt the gas produced have a nasty effect on the engine over a long term?

the LYE doesnt leave the tank with the gas, and the bubbler will filter anything if it does.
If your electrolyzer is leaving the generator and making it through the bubbler to the engine, then yes you should be worried.

grytvikken
07-06-2008, 09:19 PM
ok just had caustic soda in the mind and seeing as though its so aggressive a chemical i was worried that pumping the gas created by it may have a corrosive effect on the internals of an engine.
so am i to assume that the properties of the gas produced is the same for any electrolyte used?

Stratous
07-06-2008, 10:05 PM
ok just had caustic soda in the mind and seeing as though its so aggressive a chemical i was worried that pumping the gas created by it may have a corrosive effect on the internals of an engine.
so am i to assume that the properties of the gas produced is the same for any electrolyte used?


No, some electrolytes release carbon monoxide, other release clorine. The point of the bubbler is to filter the gas as it flows through the water. From everything I can find, there are no negative releases formed from the use of NaOH in electrolysis. I may be wrong, but I cant find anything that says otherwise. So from that aspect, the only thing you have to worry about is getting the electolyte into your engine.

Bwanar
07-07-2008, 12:09 AM
This is about the cheapest place I've seen to get KOH. It is my favorite catalyst.

http://www.cosmeticgrade.com/Potassium-Hydroxide-p-595.html

goingreen
07-07-2008, 09:26 PM
I built a Smacks Booster....I had tried 8-10 other designs before swallowing my pride and buildins Smack's design...His design outputs 1.2 LPM at 18 Amps...by far the best I have achieved.
I have KOH and SOH and compared them. SOH (Roebic Drain Cleaner) actually gives us the best gas production at the same current draw as KOH. It took 1 3/4 tsp of SOH per gallon of distilled water to get the 1.2 LPM vs KOH took nearly 3 tsp/gallon of distilled and gave me .9 LPM at the same current draw (18 Amps)

By the way,
if you are looking for KOH, it's used by taxidermists and tanners. I ordered mine from here:
http://www.braintan.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=KOH1lb&Category_Code=Materials

lou
07-08-2008, 06:49 AM
I'm very new to this so I can't speak to efficiently of potash or SH in HHO systems. But I do work with potash and SH daily, and my first thought if either got into the engine would be I'll just have a cleaner engine. Now if I was to setup a dip tank and soak the block .... then we're talking something else entirely.

And are you guys buying the potash and SH premixed? I only use the bead/flake not much diff between the two.

computerclinic
07-08-2008, 08:10 AM
All the types of gasses, and of course the bits of water that make it into the engine have to take SOME kind of LONG TERM effect...I was just wondering what components will take the first hit, and how long of a period of time to check on things in there...Places I would think of right away would be the valve seals, gaskets, and the catalytic converter....But then again I am just bench testing with salt water till I get some KOH this week...can anyone point out other places I may need to monitor, and what time intervals I should check? I know Diesel may actually benifit from a bit of the water getting in there, but what about all the other flavors of gasses?

lou
07-08-2008, 08:21 AM
All the types of gasses, and of course the bits of water that make it into the engine have to take SOME kind of LONG TERM effect...I was just wondering what components will take the first hit, and how long of a period of time to check on things in there...Places I would think of right away would be the valve seals, gaskets, and the catalytic converter....But then again I am just bench testing with salt water till I get some KOH this week...can anyone point out other places I may need to monitor, and what time intervals I should check? I know Diesel may actually benifit from a bit of the water getting in there, but what about all the other flavors of gasses?

I would think regular PM is your best defense. I use potash & SH and mixed with a surfactant pressurized I make a de-greasing foam. I do this most every night. I can spray it on a wall and it will sit 30-45 minutes 6inches thick and eat/dissolve grease (I provide a service for restaurants). What I'm getting at is I've taken much the same mix and applied to my engine and undercarriage and let it sit for 30 minutes then rinse. No damage just clean engine.

timetowinarace
07-08-2008, 05:06 PM
Don't use glycol. Works well at first then foams up so gasses can't get out.

And may make you ill. It did me for a short time.

timetowinarace
07-08-2008, 05:10 PM
Don't use DMSO. It's not really a good catalyst without salt but I tried it for it's very high boiling point. It turned green and smelled like rotten eggs. It does this naturaly when organisms turn it to DMS. It has very low toxicity.

lou
07-08-2008, 05:23 PM
I'm thinking I'll need to wear my MSA mask when figuring this out :D

ridelong
07-16-2008, 07:05 AM
The best I have found is potassium hydroxide. I have been running it for a couple months, and it dosen't cause rust and gunk in my jar. Tried baking soda, in 2 days so much rust you can't see the electrodes. Sodium hydroxide is better, but still causes rust. It is SOOO much nicer to just add 1/2 oz distilled once or twice a week.

lukeoid1
07-20-2008, 09:20 PM
I think i will just stay with baking soda, or maybe try this "Lye" thing everyone is screaming about.

Another thing with baking soda I just found out, it degrades at higher than 140 degrees F. Sodium hydroxide (Lye) supposedly will take a temp of 300+.
I tried baking soda, but Lye works better in that:
1. cleaner plates, so less maintenance, and plates last longer
2. cleaner electrolyte, much much less of a problem here : (with baking soda, very murky after 4 days back and forth to work)
3. much better HHO production, IMPRESSIVE
4. less heat : Just got a pwm, but getting impressive production at only 5-6 amps!

I'm so pleased with the change, I think you will be too. You can get it at Lowes, and on tub will last a very long time.

As was mentioned elsewhere, always wear safety goggles with servicing. I keep a big bucket of water and a hose ready and close by when doing any work her for additional safety. Just be careful. Have a plan to deal with splashes and spills, and things will be good.

For the bucket of water, I'm going to start using water collected from my heat pump. Cheaper and less hassle than buying at the store.
GGTY!

gizzy
08-12-2008, 11:02 AM
:) Question about the lye electrolite??? How much do you put in to the gallon? I recently got a new generator and I certainly don't want to ruin it by using baking soda.

GOplayer
08-31-2008, 06:23 AM
My first road test using an improved version of the Water4gas type of HOD Generator (two of them hocked up on parallel) and Sodium hydroxide (Lye) 5 ml in aprox. 1 quart distilled water:
1: First 15 miles noticeable increase of power in the engine. Amp reader was on 5 amp Temperature was below 140F.
2: Amp reader was on 10 for the next 15 miles the HOD Generators heated up to 200F before I could pull over and shut it down.
3: No visible damage to the HOD Generator so next day I power it up again but got not a single bubble! Tested the current right in the generator itself and got the power there. Changed the water and tried 1 ml Sodium hydroxide then went up from there to over 5 ml again but no bubble.
Conclusion / question: If the electricity is present, water with Sodium hydroxide is there but no electrolysis taking place then what is going on? The surface of the electrodes got coated? Did the chemical composition of the electrolyte change under the increased temperature? Are the agents of misinformation using Sodium Hydroxide knowing that it can render an HOD useless once it heats up? Anyone experienced similar results? Any suggestions?

solo33
10-10-2008, 07:35 AM
Hi roller24
Do you have a current limiter on your H-generator? Sounds like your having thermal run-a-way problems. Go to youtube and put "zerofossilfuels" in the search engine. He has a pimer on PWM /current limiting. As winter gets here, we'll all probably have to add more elecrolyte to get the "cold H-generator" to put much HHO so a current limiter will be more and more required.

Klijanow
11-20-2008, 05:56 PM
iv been useing bakeing soda, its been working for me but i dont have a fixed amount to use per liter or gallon. how much bakeing soda would create the most efficient mix ?

HALS-GUNSMITHING
11-20-2008, 06:38 PM
Don't use backing soda it creates either carbon monoxdie or carbon dioxide and brown sludge. Use KOH or NaOh

screwballl
12-03-2008, 09:51 PM
Many newer cars are using a recirculation setup that recirculates a good portion of the carbon-monoxide and carbon-dioxide exhaust into the intake (mixed with incoming air to dilute it). The CO/CO2 mixing with the incoming air may produce long term carbon build up but these are internal combustion engines, its going to happen anyways.

As for salt originally mentioned, I live by the ocean and there is a known reaction between dissimilar metals. Usually if lower grade Stainless steel (usually used for switch plates and cheaper screws/nails) is used in close proximity to salt water and/or aluminum, it will corrode faster and weaken considerably.

h2gen
12-24-2008, 03:00 AM
I use Sodium Acetate, i.e. baking soda + vinegar.
See
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=v6TeilHHmow&feature=channel_page

Cheers,
h2gen

frls1666
02-23-2009, 06:29 PM
What is the best electrolyte to use? I'm building a torch not putting it in my car. So I just need the the best production of hho gas. I'v only used baking soda. not getting enough production. My torch is 38 plates 5" x 10" and i"ve put up to 100 amps to it. ishould be getting a huge flame and i'm not.:rolleyes:

H2OPWR
02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
What is the best electrolyte to use? I'm building a torch not putting it in my car. So I just need the the best production of hho gas. I'v only used baking soda. not getting enough production. My torch is 38 plates 5" x 10" and i"ve put up to 100 amps to it. ishould be getting a huge flame and i'm not.:rolleyes:

KOH is best for production but hardest to find and mose expensive. NaOH is second and easily obtained. It is just 100% LYE available at most hardware stores in the cleaning section. I use only KOH. I get 5% or so better production.

Latty

55blue
03-18-2009, 02:11 PM
Baking soda and vinegar just cancel each other out until you get a neutral solution. KOH and DISTILLED water works the best for me.
No gunk build up very little rust and good production. I am still working on a way to get better volume of gas. I am in the process of expanding my plate size and concentration, then will start on refining the e-lite to my needs.
I am not going to get into huge amperage systems.

chitown1234
03-18-2009, 06:15 PM
i know lye can do some damage if it get on your skin is koh dangerous also
also i never seen koh in plumbing section do they have it at lowes or home depo
________
buy property in Pattaya (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

Gary Diamond
03-18-2009, 06:26 PM
i know lye can do some damage if it get on your skin is koh dangerous also
also i never seen koh in plumbing section do they have it at lowes or home depo

Lowes does carry it, i never saw it at home depot

zachattack
03-19-2009, 04:56 PM
I have tried baking soda and citric acid with poor results. Moving to KOH.


Can't speak for every state in the US or city. But I have moved around a good bit being in the army and most hardware stores have stopped selling 100% lye because it is so dangerous.

But you can search the web for soap making supplies they will have NaOH and KOH for sale. Some sites are more expensive than the others.

Zach

drumacc
04-01-2009, 02:37 PM
I bought a jug 'o' Lye at Home Depot or Lowes a few months ago. I was with the rest of the drain cleaners. "Roebic" I believe was the brand name.

noelsingletary
04-02-2009, 11:23 AM
As a mechanic I know that anytime R-12 refrigerant which contains chlorine molecules is sucked into the intake of a running engine Flourine gas is produced and is extremely toxic. Salt produces Chlorine gas durinf electrolysis and would therefore produce Flourine gas at the tailpipe. I say NO to salt in any form.

Noel


one is that it will make up Chlorine gas,
2 you are putting salt residue into your motor to burn? Don't know the long term effects that would have.

Zolar1
04-06-2009, 12:08 AM
Salt will make Hydrogen Chloride gas, which explodes on contact with sunlight, assuming you have enough of it made.

It can also make chlorine gas (AKA Mustard Gas from WWI), which wants to react with everything under the sun, including YOU if you have an exhaust leak.

Baking Soda makes 66% H, 30% CO, 4% CO2, but only in the beginning. After using it for a while, it converts to Sodium Hydroxide.

Using baking soda does have a few advantages:

1) far less damaging to everything if you spring a leak
2) far less likely to corrode aluminum parts of your engine
3) reduces or eliminates the need for an EFIE (but you would still need a MAP/MAF mod)
4) is available almost everywhere
5) is cheap

To the guy using sea water:
Well there are a lot of other dissolved minerals/metals in sea water, and well as living organisms.
You're not using straight salt water.

Using Sodium Hydroxide yields two times (2/3H + 1/3 O) in a hydroxy unit. It also isn't as efficient as KOH, which also produces the same results but with lower amps needed. With either of these two, you need an EFIE, MAP/MAF mods, IAT mod, and CTS mods to reap the full benefit.

I hope this helps.

jdchrista
04-10-2009, 02:39 AM
Zolar1: How does baking soda negate the need for a EFIE, as opposed to KOH? I haven't heard this before.

FYI anyone shopping for NaOH: I've been to two Home Depots and two Lowes stores in CT and they no longer carry 100% lye products. They also look at you very suspiciously when you ask for Sodium Hydroxide by name. :cool:

My friend said he scoured the state looking for it a few months ago and can only find it locally in chemical supply warehouses where they scrutinize who's buying.

Painless
04-10-2009, 03:20 PM
Zolar1: How does baking soda negate the need for a EFIE, as opposed to KOH? I haven't heard this before.

FYI anyone shopping for NaOH: I've been to two Home Depots and two Lowes stores in CT and they no longer carry 100% lye products. They also look at you very suspiciously when you ask for Sodium Hydroxide by name. :cool:

My friend said he scoured the state looking for it a few months ago and can only find it locally in chemical supply warehouses where they scrutinize who's buying.
Unfortunately, the reason for this is that the junkies are using it to make drugs, hence it's removal from the shelves.

biodieselbarn.com is a good source of KOH and NaOH plus they ship very quickly.

nocolour
05-28-2009, 05:39 AM
I'm not recommended to use baking soda and salt (NaCl)

baking soda = Sodium bicarbonate = NaHCO3, Because it content carbon "C". You will get CO2 on out put.

Salt = NaCl, you will get Cl2 (chlorine), water become yellow and spoil the plate!!

I recommended to use NaOH and KOH, But my personal is using NaOH, Because I can get the pure NaOH easy than KOH. Try to get 99% pure of NaOH or KOH for best electrolysis performance!!!!

Be careful when using pure KOH or NaOH..!!!:o

HHO BLASTER
05-28-2009, 10:27 AM
Zolar1: How does baking soda negate the need for a EFIE, as opposed to KOH? I haven't heard this before.

FYI anyone shopping for NaOH: I've been to two Home Depots and two Lowes stores in CT and they no longer carry 100% lye products. They also look at you very suspiciously when you ask for Sodium Hydroxide by name. :cool:

My friend said he scoured the state looking for it a few months ago and can only find it locally in chemical supply warehouses where they scrutinize who's buying.

Where are you in CT? i'm in Southbury.

Gary

ejohnson44004
06-28-2009, 02:49 PM
I have the same problem. I have dissassembled my generator and found the plates(SS switch plate covers) all coverewd with a bronze colored film. I'm assuming this film stopped the production of HHO. I just tore it all apart to clean. I'll letyou know how I make out. Anyone have any other suggestions?

ridelong
07-06-2009, 06:36 PM
Check this out.
I think someone on this site suggested it before.

http://www.physorg.com/news165836803.html

Russ

Llew2_1
07-14-2009, 10:24 AM
I have been recomended by one site, to use Sulphuric acid diluted 5;1 as am elcrolyte. Any one got advive to offer.

JOHNM
07-26-2009, 08:46 PM
Sodium Chloride (salt) releases Chlorine gas when used in an electrolyzer. Clorine gas is poinsonous, and is corrosive. Not that it would hurt you, but its not going to help either.

if there is enough concentration of clorine gas it will kill you. there was a spill in las vegas and they evacuated 2 miles square and further down wind.

jm

Q-Hack!
07-27-2009, 01:43 AM
I have been recomended by one site, to use Sulphuric acid diluted 5;1 as am elcrolyte. Any one got advive to offer.

Sulphuric acid is H2SO4 so if you break it down during electrolysis you will end up with:

H2S04 --> H2 + O2 + SO2

or Hydrogen + Oxygen + Sulphur dioxide.

This means that it will smell like rotten eggs. All three components are gasses so you will have to replace your electrolyte as it gets used up, as opposed to both NaOH and KOH. Which leave the electrolyte in solution, so you only have to add more water.

pbt308
07-27-2009, 05:03 PM
Still sounds like KOH is the best solution. It relativley safe with a little common sense and very efficient.

Llew2_1
08-12-2009, 08:52 AM
To day I run my HHO generator for the first time. I was concerned that the SS case grounded to the car would not work. I am using the inside of the case as negative + 2 pairs of plates. The positive has 12 pairs of plates. It was gassing freely. Using Potassium Hydroxide 100 grams to 10 litres water. When the case is full it holds 20 liters.
I am planing on using a litre bottle, with the bottom cut off and HHO hose going in through the top. To measure output. Putting the bottle bottom first into a bucket of water and allowing the HHO to push the water out of the bottle. This should give me the volume flow, in Ltrs/min.
Anybody used this method of measuring the generator output.
Llew

Popsie
09-30-2009, 11:32 AM
With years of building under my belt I've found nothing better than KOH (potassium hydroxide ) and 316L. AAA chemical or eBay for KOH and www.sidecuts.com for 316L. I got 75 plates 5 inches by 8 inches for $95. They sell remnants annealed or not.:eek:

Helz_McFugly
09-30-2009, 11:34 AM
cool thanks. I use AAA chemical myself for KOH.

Welcome to the forum

Popsie
09-30-2009, 11:34 AM
works great for measuring output.

Casiovega
05-31-2010, 09:12 AM
KOH

So I work for CN Rail I haul 1000's of cars worth of Potash from Saskatchewan every year and I see piles and piles of this stuff laying around all over the place so i'm just curious is it just pure potash or does it have something else thrown in there to make it more reactive? Pretty cheap easy way to get ahold of some is to go down to the local train yard and dig some out of a pile lol just a thought if that's all it is ;)

I also know we ship red and white potash wondering if anyone knows which would be best to use if that's the case?

billyboy999
10-01-2010, 02:26 AM
I have no idea but I wouldn't trust stuff lying around on the ground... you could always bring some home and see how it fares.

Anyways, thought I'd contribute my 2 cents to this thread. I'm not actually trying to make an HHO thing but just interested in electrolysis in general. KOH is amazing - water remains clear, extremely conductive and electrodes (316L) only turn a little black which I'm guessing is due to high overvoltage/current and impurities. Too bad its dangerous to handle and eats glass.

Things not to use:
Sodium Sulfate
Potassium Nitrate

I'd read these were fairly inert but turns out they aren't. Both cause rusting, at least with 316 electrodes. NaSO4 is actually decent, but KNO3 is a terrible electrolyte in terms of conductivity, and hard to dissolve too. Better off using it to make some fun bombs.
Of course, stuff mentioned before goes without saying - Salt, baking soda, etc.

jwhhopower1978
12-02-2010, 11:17 AM
I plan to winter use my hho system and to regulate curren trow a digital constant current pwm.

To maintain water in liquid form on cold days the electrolyt needs to contine 14% naho of water weight to maintain water liquid dowm to -4 F / -20 C

20% should hold it liquid down to -22 F / -30 C

My question:

To protect my engine form electrlyte steam, Do 2 bubblers in series (whit a special filter in the bottom thats brakes the bubbles to mirco bubbles) and one microfilter/flashback protector dry out the hhogas enough?

My dry cell is a 5N x 6 stacks in series and I plan to feed it whit 10-20amps, so the temp should not be warmer that 105-122 F on longer runs.

I have also a pump (1gmp) that helps to cool the elektrlyte.

And the gas do bubbel trow the water resivoar also before it leds in to the bubblers.

If I put the gas trow a nozzel and light it up, and the color is white/blue whitout yellowish... is the gas dry enough? (have not test it yet)

IF Im burning naho what color will that show?



thanks guys

Georgboy
01-29-2011, 06:02 AM
I am planning on running two glass quart jars. My question is I read in a post that pot-hyd will eat away at glass, has anyone tried this? I will be installing the generators on a 1993 geo metro. The metro already gets 41 mpg. What do you guys think would be a good estimate on mpg improvement? Has anyone installed this unit on a 3 cyl. Motor before? It is a 1.0 liter . I am new here and I enjoy this thread already. I also have a 05 dodge 2500 that I would love to install a few generators on also. I noticed the adm. Has a 06 I would like to kick this idea around with you. Thanks alot guys.

lhazleton
01-29-2011, 05:11 PM
Potassium Hydroxide won't eat glass. It will, however, cause burns on your skin if you actually build one of those mason jar bombs & it explodes while you're near it.

Georgboy
01-30-2011, 07:54 AM
Can you explain how a dry cell works?

lhazleton
01-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Do some research. Anything you want to know is in here.

koya1893
01-30-2011, 04:13 PM
I am planning on running two glass quart jars. My question is I read in a post that pot-hyd will eat away at glass, has anyone tried this? I will be installing the generators on a 1993 geo metro. The metro already gets 41 mpg. What do you guys think would be a good estimate on mpg improvement? Has anyone installed this unit on a 3 cyl. Motor before? It is a 1.0 liter . I am new here and I enjoy this thread already. I also have a 05 dodge 2500 that I would love to install a few generators on also. I noticed the adm. Has a 06 I would like to kick this idea around with you. Thanks alot guys.

Okay, apparently you did some research and come to some half intelligent decision to install a system on your car. The other half, I consider "shooting in the dark". Those glass jar system are poplution to this community, they are nothing but a "bomb" waiting to explode and give our effort another reason for the general public to turn their heads away from this. Take another crack at researching other system. Here's a hint; DRY CELL...DRY CELL. If you are going to take the time to install one and enjoy the benefit, at least make sure you are alive to do so.

This forum is the place to learn. By the way, my 1.8 liter motorcycle engine yield 25% increase. You can tune to get 30-40% percent with a efficient DRY CELL and properly tuned EFIE. Yes you need to address the o2 system on your car if you have them. Taking in consideration your car is in early 90's it probably have narrow band and most likely it is a single wire one at that.

H2GenerationX
02-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Hey everyone! As we all know both KOH and LYE are very caustic, and pose a danger. Water actually will activate the lye when its on your skin. So ALWAYS keep vinegar opened, ready to use. It will neutralize the burn and stop the caustic soda/potash from continuing to burn. Having a gallon open next to my setup saved my skin on my hands and arm, when I had a hose disconnect on me.

H2GenerationX
02-08-2011, 12:44 PM
Bubblers dont work. Look at your hoses after the bubbler, hazy? Then there is still e-lyte vapor. PVC bubbler, lightly stuffed cotton over barbed fitting holes inside, filled with Activated Charcoal will remove 90% of vapor. Test it...you wont depend on a bubbler again. I went even further and put 2 on my system. The hose going into my engine is BONE DRY...no haze...just Hydroxy!!! Thats the point right ;) GOOD LUCK!!!

pwteng
04-22-2011, 06:12 PM
:mad: this is really bad it creates hydrogen and clorine gas not hho so your not getting the desired effects from the hydrogen because the clorine is sucking out the oxygen not only that but the clorine gas will etch your pistons and cylinders reducing the life of your engine expontially
my experience is a couple of table spoons of acid right out of an old battery works very well and boosts the amperage going through the unit

pwteng
04-24-2011, 04:24 PM
saltwater when energized produces H Cl yes chlorine gas and reverts back to salt when released thats like running without an air filter

fortwnty420
04-26-2011, 06:43 AM
I may be wrong about this because I'm still just learning this stuff myself, but:

Generally distilled water carries no current.. But, with the addition of some acid solution, it becomes an excellent conductor.

Adding acid to water causes the Ph balance to go up. I've done it countless times for pools and fish tanks..

Once you get the proper solution that is working for you.. no matter what electrolyte you use it is good to check the Ph balance of the water...

It is easy to check the Ph of the water. Get one of them pool tester kits.. About $6 at wal-mart. Just fill it with a sample of your HHO Converter water.. put a couple color drops in and match the water to the color chart. It will tell you what your Ph is. If you want your water more acidic.. you can raise the level up with the Ph Booster drops that come with the kit.

Of course in pools you can't use the little drops, but, in an HHO Converter you deff could.

The Ph Booster in those kits is used for fish tanks, so it is probably environmentally safe.. and only a couple drops will really boost you acid level up.. A couple drops will boost gallons.

TimCollins
09-01-2011, 06:41 PM
I read this online: "Potassium Hydroxide flakes have been used and recommended for use as an electrolyte in HHO generators. DON'T USE IT!! It will discolor your SS plates and decrease their production and performance,
necessitating dismantling and soaking in CLR for a day or two to clean them up for re-use. I recommend Sodium Hydroxide as your electrolyte. It works well, keeps the plates clean snd the electrolyte solution usable."

Is this true about discoloring and performance reduction?

What about lye as the author implies is a better choice?

Stevo
09-22-2011, 10:24 AM
I may be wrong about this because I'm still just learning this stuff myself, but:

Generally distilled water carries no current.. But, with the addition of some acid solution, it becomes an excellent conductor.

Adding acid to water causes the Ph balance to go up. I've done it countless times for pools and fish tanks..

Once you get the proper solution that is working for you.. no matter what electrolyte you use it is good to check the Ph balance of the water...

It is easy to check the Ph of the water. Get one of them pool tester kits.. About $6 at wal-mart. Just fill it with a sample of your HHO Converter water.. put a couple color drops in and match the water to the color chart. It will tell you what your Ph is. If you want your water more acidic.. you can raise the level up with the Ph Booster drops that come with the kit.

Of course in pools you can't use the little drops, but, in an HHO Converter you deff could.

The Ph Booster in those kits is used for fish tanks, so it is probably environmentally safe.. and only a couple drops will really boost you acid level up.. A couple drops will boost gallons.

Were you smoking a doobie while typing this? If you don't know what's in it, then why risk it? Please explain.

Stevo
09-22-2011, 10:29 AM
I read this online: "Potassium Hydroxide flakes have been used and recommended for use as an electrolyte in HHO generators. DON'T USE IT!! It will discolor your SS plates and decrease their production and performance,
necessitating dismantling and soaking in CLR for a day or two to clean them up for re-use. I recommend Sodium Hydroxide as your electrolyte. It works well, keeps the plates clean snd the electrolyte solution usable."

Is this true about discoloring and performance reduction?

What about lye as the author implies is a better choice?

You WILL get a layer buildup on your plates of the right kind if you do things correctly. This is actually a good thing. KOH has never caused any type of buildup that hinders production. Ever.

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1954&stc=1&d=1316701825

myoldyourgold
09-22-2011, 04:45 PM
Steve, have you ever checked the resistance on a virgin plate compared to a plate with a catalytic build up. There is a number of tests that can be run. Also have you tested the difference between a run plate with a build up that has been allowed to dry completely and then put back in service. Another test is using 2 plates 2 volts and an accurately measured electrolyte to see if there is any difference in amp draw when compared with different plates; with build up/without build up/dried/not dried etc. I think we would all be surprised with the results.

earlybird
10-08-2011, 06:32 AM
Has anyone tried ammonia as electrolyte?? It seems it has NH3 composition and is alkaline.

myoldyourgold
10-08-2011, 01:33 PM
Has anyone tried ammonia as electrolyte?? It seems it has NH3 composition and is alkaline.

Ammonia is a weak electrolyte. It's a molecular compound, and so doesn't break up into cations and anions. But any substance that produces ions in solution can be considered an electrolyte; dissociation isn't the only way a substance can produce ions. Ammonia is an electrolyte because it produces ions by the following reaction:
NH3(aq) + H2O = NH4+(aq) + OH-(aq)
Ammonia is a weak rather than strong electrolyte because this reaction runs both ways; ammonia reacts with water to produce ammonium and hydroxide ions, while hydroxide ions react with ammonium ions to produce ammonia and water. The reaction clearly shows that ammonia is a base because it accepts a hydrogen ion from the water.

There are number of people trying some combination of ammonia and other bases to increase the H content the the gas. Some have reported gains at low wattage and others have reported no gains. There are electrolytes that have ammonia as part of their make up sold even on eBay. I am just setting up to do some testing as soon as I can free up a reactor. My under standing is limited at the moment and the above information is not mine I give credit to who ever wrote its main parts and was taken form some of my notes so is not a direct quote. There is a lot of information out there so do a little research and then some testing. Others I am sure will be able to contribute much more in detail.

NaCl/NaOH
10-27-2013, 03:29 PM
Ok, I'm amazed that I have to do this in my first post/comment, but wow, chemistry sure isn't a strong suit here is it?


I would like to know what is the consequences using salt..
Hi buddy, I'm here to help!

Electrochemistry 101:
First off, NaCl - common table salt - is PERFECTLY FINE as an electrolyte, as is any of the strong electrolytes here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_electrolyte).
"Why?" I hear you ask. It is because of the nature of ionic solutions! Ionic solutions are comprised of two parts, the anion (negatively charged) and the cation (positively charged) When they are solid, IE not dissolved, they are solid, like the table salt you sprinkle on food. but as soon as you dissolve it in water*, they dissociate into an ionic solution like so: NaCl(s) → Na+(aq) + Cl−(aq)
Before you go crazy and call that chlorine a gas and sodium a metal, remember that they will still be salt if you remove the water. the same thing happens with NaOH, your favorite. NaOH(s) → Na+(aq) + OH−(aq).
"But the wikipedia says chlorine gas will be liberated" And that's true if you're working with molten sodium chloride, which you most certainly are not as you all would have died before you even melted any. You need to remember that you are working with water which will split long before the salt.
One more nail that I feel I must drive into this coffin is that I have used salt as an electrolyte in my basement for 2 or 3 weeks straight in a wet cell making rust. I tossed a few cups of salt into a big tub of water with a stainless steel cathode(iirc) and some iron weights as the anode with a 12v computer power supply doing all the hard work. When it was done I had a few pounds of Fe2O3 and Fe3O4 and no chlorine gas anywhere.

I must however point out something that the list doesn't mention, acids tend to like metals. For why I must point you to the reactivity series (http://images.tutorvista.com/content/metals-non-metals/metals-reactivity-series.jpeg). Let us just say that short of gold**, perhaps platinum, and sometimes even silver, mercury, or copper, pretty much all metals will react with most acids. Basically, acids are not optimal.
I must also point out why bases are better. The bases on that list i mentioned earlier all have a metal attached and because of that are less likely to react with the electrodes. Again, they also are ionic and do not participate in the reactions, they only facilitate them. Bringing back the reactivity series, the more reactive the attached metal is, the fewer metals it will react with (in an ionic solution).
Now for my favorites, salts. Salts are even less reactive than the other two since they are a metal that has already reacted with an acid, leaving little room to react. and like with the bases, the reactivity series predicts what else it can react with in solution, with NaCl being one of the less nasty ones.

This is only the beginning.
End of part 1

*They will dissolve in any similar solvent, but for practical purposes of this discussion water is the only solvent.
**Gold is the least reactive and can only be dissolved by aqua regia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia), a mix of HCl and HNO3.

NaCl/NaOH
10-27-2013, 05:20 PM
Myth Busting:

one is that it will make up Chlorine gas,

Sodium Chloride (salt) releases Chlorine gas when used in an electrolyzer
Chlorine gas: This doesn't happen when you're trying to split water. Ever. All because the ions they split into only act as charge carriers.


you are putting salt residue into your motor to burn? Don't know the long term effects that would have.
It does not matter in the least what the hell kind of electrolyte you get in your engine, they are all really bad for it, probably lethal too. Actually, I have no idea what happens when you get unnecessary stuff in your engine either, it probably ends up as a residue somewhere that cleaners aren't designed to clean, which is generally a bad thing. What I do know is that if you have a filter, IE a bubbler, than that will collect any random junk that comes out of your cell. If you still don't understand chemistry, than my telling you that water will absorb any chlorine or HCl gas that is [not] released from your cell probably won't help either.


Using Salt as an electrolye is not only bad, but also ineffective.
100% wrong. It is equally as effective as NaOH, as they are both strong electrolytes. The dude who claimed this mentioned "8 parts Epsom salts, to 3 parts baking soda, per 2-2.5L" as a better 'mix'. MgCl2 is also a strong electrolyte and a salt, but baking soda is most definitely not. As for mixing 'parts' of an unlabeled quantity, thats just useless. for instance: if I took this recipe and used .08 milligrams of MgCl2 and .03 milligrams of NaHCO3, still an 8 to 3 ratio, with 2 liters of pure water, I would have a less contaminated water than if I used tap water. If I used pounds on the other hand, I could make a pool work.


I'll have to pick up on my chemistry skills
Is that what you call them?


2NaHCO3 + H2O + Energy(electricity?) = 2H2 + O2 + 2CO2 + 2NaH
(or maybe = 2H2 + 2CO2 + 2NaOH?)
No,
NaHCO3(aq) + 2H2O(l) + e- -> 2H2(g) + O2(g) + 2NaHCO3(aq)
e- is your electrons which break up the H2O



...Sodium hydride...
Nice try, but "NaH is produced by the direct reaction of hydrogen and liquid sodium.[3]". not only that, it hates water more fiercely than sodium metal
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0yxIptnAls)

Oh right, my point being, is it wise using an electrolyte that will make your car produce CO2 and if so, it's probably a good idea separating the H2 and O2 from the CO2 before it's combusted.
1) The electrolyte and its parts never get to the cylinders, they barely make it out of the reactor cell.
2) Unless you have one of those rare pure hydrogen engines, you will ALWAYS make CO2, its a fact of the fuel.

NaCl/NaOH
10-27-2013, 05:22 PM
Im using Ocean Water, it works very well,
^^^This guy is living proof that salt works, take note.^^^
As it should. Just don't always use it since the dissolved minerals will eventually build up and you will need to clean it. Just use some seawater to start and switch to fresh.



Probably using mild steel or generic galvanized stuff, corrosion will happen there. Use stainless steel or aluminium connectors instead (if you keep using seawater of course).

[QUOTE=hmfdesigns;1215]when using baking soda you are only making about 66% hydrogen and almost 30% carbon dioxide and even a littel carbon monoxide
Not in electrolysis, you get CO2 if you mix it with acids, like vinegar. Coincidentally, baking soda, vinegar, and sodium acetate(one of the other byproducts of that reaction) are all electrolytes.


why is epsom salt any different from regular salt?
In a technical sense they are not, since you get a “salt” when you react stuff with acids, but in laymans terms they are very different. Epsom salt is MgSO4 and “regular salt” - table salt – is NaCl, a completely different molecule. Also, table salt is a better electrolyte than epsom's.


I figure that introducing the water into the engine and exaust will have enough of a long term impact to deal with
All the hydrocarbon, wait no, all fuels produce H2O. Except nuclear, but you guys aren't trying to time travel or pilot a submarine either(and those guys know all about electrolysis of seawater)

NaCl/NaOH
10-27-2013, 05:24 PM
As a mechanic I know that anytime R-12 refrigerant which contains chlorine molecules is sucked into the intake of a running engine Flourine gas is produced and is extremely toxic. Salt produces Chlorine gas durinf electrolysis and would therefore produce Flourine gas at the tailpipe. I say NO to salt in any form.

Noel
Oh dear God. NO.
Both fluorine and chlorine would react with the metals in the engine system, it will even react with your catalytic converter. Some may escape unreacted, but enough to kill you? Who has died that way? As for your comparison of electrolysis to combustion, I can't see how they are remotely similar.
Also chlorine doesn't come off of water electrolysis.


Salt will make Hydrogen Chloride gas, which explodes on contact with sunlight, assuming you have enough of it made.

It can also make chlorine gas (AKA Mustard Gas from WWI), which wants to react with everything under the sun, including YOU if you have an exhaust leak.

Baking Soda makes 66% H, 30% CO, 4% CO2, but only in the beginning. After using it for a while, it converts to Sodium Hydroxide.

Using baking soda does have a few advantages:

1) far less damaging to everything if you spring a leak
2) far less likely to corrode aluminum parts of your engine
3) reduces or eliminates the need for an EFIE (but you would still need a MAP/MAF mod)
4) is available almost everywhere
5) is cheap

To the guy using sea water:
Well there are a lot of other dissolved minerals/metals in sea water, and well as living organisms.
You're not using straight salt water.

Using Sodium Hydroxide yields two times (2/3H + 1/3 O) in a hydroxy unit. It also isn't as efficient as KOH, which also produces the same results but with lower amps needed. With either of these two, you need an EFIE, MAP/MAF mods, IAT mod, and CTS mods to reap the full benefit.

I hope this helps.
I am facepalming with the force of 100,000 suns. No, that is so entirely incorrect it is making me lose faith in humanities ability to even convert oxygen to carbon dioxide. I'm sorry I'm picking on you but God damn this is wrong.
Ok, when HCl is in water it is known as hydrochloric acid or muriatic acid, a sidewalk cleaner they sell by the gallon at home ****ing depot(and is an electrolyte). When it is not the the water it is a gas, just a gas. no explosions occur on contact with anything, even sunlight, ever. HCl gas is one of the things that comes out of volcanoes and a thing idiots on the news claim planes are afraid of with those(but it hardly does any damage, the real danger there is the ash clogging the engines up).
Already covered chlorine, doesn't happen, and chlorine is most definitely not mustard gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_mustard), the difference between the two is a fistful of hydrogen and carbon with a sulfur on top (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sulfur-mustard-3D-balls.png), and if it reacted with everything why does it last in the ground and water supplies for months after use before it breaks down?
Baking soda does not do that.
1,2) Just no.
Seawater guy via idiot: while true, its still full of salt.
Sodium hydroxide doesn't work that way.
This doesn't help at all, it gave me a ****ing migraine.


baking soda = Sodium bicarbonate = NaHCO3, Because it content carbon "C". You will get CO2 on out put.

Salt = NaCl, you will get Cl2 (chlorine), water become yellow and spoil the plate!!
*head desk*
I am entering the downward spiral of depression here.
You contain enough iron to make a nail and a bunch of carbon and oxygen, but if I dissolved you in water a rusty steel nail would not appear no matter how hard I drive the current. Ok, that was too grim. How about.... oh I don't know. My point is that even if something contains something, it doesn't automatically make something else. NaHCO3 is an ion carrier and nothing more, it won't react. Same thing with all aqueous salts.

NaCl/NaOH
10-27-2013, 05:54 PM
I have been recomended by one site, to use Sulphuric acid diluted 5;1 as am elcrolyte. Any one got advive to offer.
That is a viable option, but be sure to use parts that can withstand it.


saltwater when energized produces H Cl yes chlorine gas and reverts back to salt when released thats like running without an air filter
Nope.


Generally distilled water carries no current.. But, with the addition of some acid solution, it becomes an excellent conductor.
1) Always. 2)Yes, depending on the acid.


Adding acid to water causes the Ph balance to go up.
Other way, pH drops in acidic solutions.

TL;DR
Chlorine, CO2, etc.: never will get it from water electrolosys.

Now that I've responded to the most blatently incorrect notions, I'll settle down on this thread. I'm not trying to knock on the things everyone is using, just trying to prevent bad science. Also I'm on a quest to build a jewelry torch with a MOT based power supply.

petergrote1911
10-29-2013, 02:52 AM
Can not recommend Baking Soda as Electrolyte.
But Soda Ash works very well. ( Availabe for Swimming Pools )
Another Option for a none caustic Electrolyte is Potassium Carbonate.

petergrote1911
10-29-2013, 03:06 AM
Can not recommend baking Soda as Electrolyte.
Sodium Carbonate ( Soda Ash) used for Swimming Pools, works much better.
Also Potassium Carbonate is a good none caustic Electrolyte. Or a 50\50 Mixture of both !

Akito
10-29-2013, 10:25 AM
ahh Im confused how is r12 entering the intake @.@
Its in a 100% separate system. And why would anyone put r12 into the air its against the law ?_?

NaCl/NaOH
11-01-2013, 02:36 PM
Preliminary experiment results:
Unknown alloy aluminum, Epsom salt(MgSO4) @ around 1.5 cups/gallon, and dumb car charger @ 12v/6A settings (the system pulled <2A and ran at 15-16v)
Anode is heavily pitted after a few hours, cathode is less pitted with a black coating adheared to where the surface of the water was.

Granted the water was not at all clean, full of rock dust and some bismuth lumps.

Not a reccomended arrangement at this time.