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sp1r0
08-20-2008, 04:27 PM
Had this first part of the cell done now for 2 weeks.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/ultimateroadwarrior/IMG_0299.jpg

Since then, I've been working on a coil winding jig to make the remaining copper coils. It took me 2 hours winding the first coil by hand. And afterwards, it did not have enough "stretch" for the gapping material (.015" fishing line) so it could fit over the tube (Now I use it as a 6ohm power resistor...). With the jig completed, I was able to make the same coil in about 5 minutes. To adjust the ID of the coil I just added regular copy paper around the tube (.005") till I got the desired total diameter. Actually got it right the 3rd time. Now I have 2, 6ohm power resistors!

After researching, and also thanks to some members (Jaxom, sm0kin) here, I am expecting a "solenoid" effect. That is the ionized water will be forced along the magnetic lines. I am anticipating more HHO production from this effect. This effect is know as Electrohydrodynamic propulsion. A mouthful, but it has actually been around awhile. I knew nothing of this effect. My initial concept of coils inside of tubes originated from the need to increase the surface area to it's physical maximum allowed by easily obtainable sources (pipes, coils, screens, etc.). I figured plates are good in one dimension (X plane) so how could I gap in a second dimension (Y plane), and hence the sp1r0 cell.

This now has become a prototype to study the electromagnetic field effects of pulsing inductors with different frequency's. This is a totally different concept than pulsing the tube themselves, which only limits heat buildup.

I will be doing initial testing this weekend as I have almost made the coil winding jig fully automatic. Initially, only tap water will be used, so all the videos you see in this thread, HHO production will be WITHOUT an electrolyte. Eventually, when the final stage is completed, I will remake the cell and test with only distilled water... I believe it will lengthen electrode life, especially since there are two metals in the electrode.

Unfortunately I have no PWM as of yet. That is also in the works. So all initial testing will be 12VDC from a truck battery.

I will keep this thread updated as I progress. All suggestions appreciated!

HYDROTEKPRO
08-20-2008, 05:11 PM
That's lookin' like a monster HHO producer.

And you're right, there's a bunch of information related to EMFs used to make HHO production much more efficient!

I want to suggest using one tube as positive, the other as negative, with the copper coil in between them electrically insulated, but energized with the same current, either connected directly to the positive, or the negative tube! Albeit perhaps difficult to accomplish, I believe it'd be a very worthwhile trial!

Excellent idea btw!!

sp1r0
08-20-2008, 07:03 PM
That's lookin' like a monster HHO producer.

And you're right, there's a bunch of information related to EMFs used to make HHO production much more efficient!

I want to suggest using one tube as positive, the other as negative, with the copper coil in between them electrically insulated, but energized with the same current, either connected directly to the positive, or the negative tube! Albeit perhaps difficult to accomplish, I believe it'd be a very worthwhile trial!

Excellent idea btw!!

The coil itself is not magnetic wire, but if you look close it is insulated from the surrounding tubes. I wrapped it with, I think 100lb test fishing line. It provides a gap of about .015". There is a little movement of the coil in between the tubes, but not more than .005. Its very tight fitting, that was the 3rd attempt, and even it was not perfect because I didn't cut the right length of wire! It's about 1" too short of the 12" tubes.

I have many tests in mind as far as polarity, but each coil will have it's own PWM. Here's a couple:

1. All tubes are -. Coils pulsed + (both ends of the coils will be connected to +). Resistance will be through the water. (I expect this to be THE producer, but we will see)

2. Tubes alternately charged - and +. That is: the center tube is -, next tube +, and so on. The coils will again be pulsed, this time either end of each coil will be + and -. Resistance will be through the coils and some through the water. This setup will generate the strongest EMF.

How do you think I should measure EMF? Should I just have a superfine piece of wire riding next to the electrode and measure the volts? The higher reading will lead me in the right direction as far as PWM frequency for each core. It's gonna get complicated when I get to the second coil. It'll be a wave riding another wave...

HYDROTEKPRO
08-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Even though the coil is not magnetic, running current through it WILL produce an EMF (Electro-Magnetic-Field). This EMF, being concentrated right in the HHO production zone (between the tubes) could make for a whopper of a result of HHO production vs. amps. I would make sure to run current through it (the coil), some how, since this is what makes the EMF!

And pulsing currents at different frequencies? If this is done right, it would further increase HHO gas production.

And, if you want to step the EMF play, wrap the outside tube with bare coil, and just insulate over the whole thing. Wrap it with Saran Wrap, a motorcycle inner tube or something. And, make another bare coil to go inside of the inside tube, fully in contact with that tube as well!!

It looks and sounds promising, but there is no substitute for actual testing.

Keep it simple. Simple solutions are better than difficult and complicated ones!!

And keep us posted!:D

computerclinic
08-20-2008, 08:29 PM
Presonally, I would purchase some of the SS wire on a spool for your experiments SP...The copper wire will mess with the results because as it deteriorates in the electrolyte, it will change the overall chemistry of the solution and foul your experiment results...Just a suggestion...I like the design concept though..looks like a huge ammount of surface area for production and not many places for the bubbles to stick around...

sp1r0
08-20-2008, 09:40 PM
Presonally, I would purchase some of the SS wire on a spool for your experiments SP...The copper wire will mess with the results because as it deteriorates in the electrolyte, it will change the overall chemistry of the solution and foul your experiment results...Just a suggestion...I like the design concept though..looks like a huge ammount of surface area for production and not many places for the bubbles to stick around...

I do have SS316 wire .064". Wasted $45 on it. Turns out it is tempered steel it is a very strong metal and when you try to wind it to a certain ID or OD, the spring effect of the metal makes it unsuitable for winding to an exact tolerance. I am actually thinking of copper tubing and distilled water only in the future... way in the future, all this stuff is gonna take alot of time and money.

Q-Hack!
08-21-2008, 02:43 AM
I think there was another thread that talked about using different metals in the electrolysis process. I don't remember for sure, but I believe they were stating that you can use softer metals as the cathode as long as you use SS for the Anode. Not sure how that applies to your cell design, since you are coiling the copper, but seems to me that even if you pulse your signal; using copper could work, as long as it is on the cathode side.

Course I could be completely backwards on this...

computerclinic
08-21-2008, 12:00 PM
I do have SS316 wire .064". Wasted $45 on it. Turns out it is tempered steel it is a very strong metal and when you try to wind it to a certain ID or OD, the spring effect of the metal makes it unsuitable for winding to an exact tolerance. I am actually thinking of copper tubing and distilled water only in the future... way in the future, all this stuff is gonna take alot of time and money.

One way to get around this is to use some MAP gas and heat the wire while it is wrapped tightly in your jig. The metal wire will have a small ammount of carbon deposit and a bit of discolorisation, but the end result is a good coil similar to what the copper will provide.

This also leads me to a question---Has anyone used a cold weld material submerged in the electrolyte such as JB Weld? I was considering its usage in a generator housing to help seal up a few spots, but im not sure if it will contribute to making "muddy water".

sp1r0
08-21-2008, 12:03 PM
The plans for Run your car on water recommends using JB Weld. I also use it all the time at work for small fixes. I would recommend it over common 2 part epoxy.

Jaxom
08-21-2008, 01:16 PM
This could make for some interesting effects on the fluid flow within the cell too. Ever heard of magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion? It's basically the same as the electric motor theory: when a magnetic field and an electric current are applied to a conductive material, motion will be generated in that material in a direction perpendicular to both. Since the electrolyte is conductive, you will be creating fluid movement within the cell. It may be possible to use this effect to circulate fluid through the cell and thereby help control temperature or even help extract the HHO more efficiently.

sp1r0
08-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Can't wait for testing! I am stuck at work dreaming of this thing. I need a PWM dammit! I dont want to burn the coils up. I am ordering the parts for zerofossilfuel's PWM (alt-nrg.org) tomorrow. Next weekend I should have some results and observations. I spent alot of time on this coil winding jig, I should've thought about a PWM. I'm off to dream about electrohydrodynamics...

sp1r0
08-23-2008, 03:34 PM
OK, did a quick test today with the first completed stage of the cell I posted in the first post. I submersed the cell in regular tap water after making sure the coil was not shorted to either of the tubes. Hooked it up to a battery with 12guage solid wire and got huge sparks like something was shorted (thinking back, it may have been an inductive spark). Removed the cell and double checked for shorts. None. Measured the resistance between the tubes and the coil while in the water at 6 ohms, which means it should have only been drawing 2 amps. This spark was more on the order of 20-30amps. Anyway, I proceeded to hook it up for about 10 sec's through another coil I made (just a quick 6 ohm power resistor). It was making a gurgling sound. Took it out and found out that non-insulated wire will not work. Copper oxide formed on the coils and shorted it to the SS316 tubes. My attempt to attract the Oxygen Ions to the SS316 tubes by hooking up the tubes to the negative battery terminal didn't work. I figured if the copper wouldn't oxidize it would be ok. Did I get the polarities wrong? I know that current flows to the negative but here's the dictionary.com definition of an anode:

anĀ·ode

1. the electrode or terminal by which current enters an electrolytic cell, voltaic cell, battery, etc.
2. the negative terminal of a voltaic cell or battery.
3. the positive terminal, electrode, or element of an electron tube or electrolytic cell.

Maybe you see why I am slighlty confused. Do I have it backwards?

My initial concept putting coils in between tubes was to make more surface area and I believe if the coil was made from SS316, I would have been successful. Here's a couple pic's from the test: copper oxide, conductive.

Initial formation of cell.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/ultimateroadwarrior/IMG_0299.jpg

Oxidized copper after 10 sec.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/ultimateroadwarrior/IMG_0307.jpg

Closeup.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/ultimateroadwarrior/IMG_0309.jpg

sp1r0
08-23-2008, 03:56 PM
Next test will be magnetic (insulated) wire, but I am not impressed with the HHO production with just the 2 tubes (without the coil). and I doubt a 6 cell concentric tube cell will be any better. The gap is just too large at .125". I will probably save these tubes for when I come up with a way to successfully wind ss316... I may go back to my SS316 12 plate cell (2"x12"x.0625) gapped at .045" and come up with some sort of coil system around it in an attempt to make the ionized water "flow" along the electromagnetic lines. It will still be a sp1r0 cell though, as it will incorporate at least one electromagnetic coil.

One more experiment b4 I commit to my old plate cell, is to pulse a coil under water made from magnet wire. This supposedly generates HHO too? (according to run your car on water .pdf)

countryboy18
08-23-2008, 06:16 PM
i am a clyndrical cell out of copper wire and the same corrosion happend only to one of the wires and not as bad to the other. you should try it again just change the +and- around.

HYDROTEKPRO
08-24-2008, 03:18 AM
If you wrapped the outside of the outside tube with a 316 coil nice and tight, and put another 316 coil inside of the inside tube, nice and tight, would this not give each tube new electromagnetic properties?

sp1r0
08-24-2008, 10:06 AM
This morning I was thinking that there had to be a short with sparks as big as I was seeing when I was hooking up the cell. I decided to put thin strips of paper between the coil and tubes, and it worked. Measured resistance of about 9 ohms. Ran it for 3 minutes straight 12VDC, everything was cool to the touch after disassembly and the coil was not crudded up with oxidized copper. This time I made the copper coil negative, and the two tubes positive. I need to get my hands on an ammeter so I can measure current. Check out the video I made. First time on Youtube, so forgive the out of focus for the first half. Half decent production for such a small cell, I think. You can tell in the video there's pressure building up when the bigger bubbles finally make it to the surface...

The Inner tube is .652ID, .750OD and the outer tube is .995ID, .1.125OD. With the coil in between it effectively doubles the surface area, which I figure to be (37.5x2)+(28.3x2)=~132sqin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVrfI7UV0pQ


And the coil looks much better...
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/ultimateroadwarrior/IMG_0313.jpg

sp1r0
08-25-2008, 04:18 PM
Going to resume testing when I receive some .010" thick silicone adhesive teflon tape which I just ordered. I'll use it in 1/8"x12" strips to isolate the coils from the tubes. The fishing line is good for separating the coil vertically, but not horizontally against the tube. By this weekend, I should have this 1st stage straightened out, ready for the 2nd stage. I think I'm on top of the 20% learning curve...

sp1r0
08-25-2008, 04:18 PM
If you wrapped the outside of the outside tube with a 316 coil nice and tight, and put another 316 coil inside of the inside tube, nice and tight, would this not give each tube new electromagnetic properties?

Gotta hold off on the SS316 wire. It's a whole 'nother headache man...

Nat Hat
09-01-2008, 12:46 PM
just make sure everytihng is firmly planted before you juice this thing. Looks similar to a launcher sylinoid me and a friend made. That expirement ended with the inner pipe being lodged nearly four inches deep into a tree that was about sixty feet away. Mind you we were using steel and the end result was likly due to its magnetic properties, but just the same be cautious.

sp1r0
09-02-2008, 01:44 PM
Thanks for the heads up :D

FuzzyTomCat
09-02-2008, 03:35 PM
The Inner tube is .652ID, .750OD and the outer tube is .995ID, .1.125OD. With the coil in between it effectively doubles the surface area, which I figure to be (37.5x2)+(28.3x2)=~132sqin.



Hi sp1r0,

As we all know Oxyhydrogen (HHO) gas is created only from the surface area of the "metal" of the anode (+) oxygen and cathode (-) hydrogen.

I thought you might like the surface area formula for wire -

[ 2 x Pi x radius x length = sq.in. ]

example - 100" of .035 dia wire

2 x 3.14 x .0175 x 100 = 10.99 sq.in.
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Note - You can also use this formula for inside and outside tube or cylinder sq.in. surface area calculations
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Best Regards,
Fuzzy

sp1r0
09-04-2008, 03:10 PM
Yes, I knew about those calculations, and I'll use them when I'm finally done. I just wanted conservative #'s for now. The coils at least double the surface area. The coil in the first pic's in the thread is ~32ft long. The following coils for the next parts of the cell, will be 47ft,62ft, and 81ft long. I will not wind these by hand like i did the first. So...

Update: Got my .015 teflon tape to isolate the coils from the tubes, and it works great since it's self adhesive. My coil jig is being upgraded... Originally I made it to be wound by hand, but one day at work I got an idea. Now I have upgraded it using automotive windows motors. They run off of 12v and are high torque. Next week I should have the electronics for 2 high current variable voltage regulators for the motors for speed control. One motor will wind the coil on the tube. The other motor will guide the wire onto the tube. I'll start another thread on making a coil jig if anyone is interested.

sp1r0
09-13-2008, 10:37 PM
New vid's on youtube for the coil jig. Too tired tonight to post anymore. Tomorrow stage 2 of the SP1R0 cell. 1 more coil, and one more tube, and another vid on HHO production.