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View Full Version : Better electrode material? - Gold, silver, titanium, etc... plated, not solid



ElectricSquid
08-28-2008, 12:31 AM
I'm looking toward better electrode materials. Gold is the firat one that comes to mind. Used in most high grade computer connections for it's superior conductivity.

Yeas, i know solid gold electrodes would cost an arm and a leg, but DUH, we're using electrolosis, the same thing you use to gold plate jewelry. It would be easy for us to gold plate our electrodes.

So how well do you think it would hold up to say... white vinegar and 12amps?

Since we're on the topic, what about the same with silver?
The plating material could be obtained from pure silver CPU heat paste ($16 a tube).

...and what about other materials like titanium (though I'm not sure on how to plate that substance)

1973dodger
08-28-2008, 02:16 AM
From what research I have done, you can go to www.enviromentalchemistry.com to find the conductivity rating for the periodic table of elements. Silver is the most conductive of all the elements, then copper, then gold, then aluminum, and so on. Though a few in this forum may disagree with me, I have found you can use just about any conductive element, except aluminum, for your cathode electrode, because of a phenomenon of "cathodic protection", which repels the effects of oxydization. Research this for yourself to see which works out the best for you. Nickle plating would probably give you the best of both worlds, protection from oxydizing and fairly decent conductivity, or you could just play with gold or silver plating to see what works best.

1973dodger

JojoJaro
08-28-2008, 04:05 AM
If you read the pdf on the Chemistry and Manufacture of Hydrogen (in one of the threads here.), you will find that electrode material conductivity has very little to do with the amount of production.

Production comes from a 2 step chemical process that depends on the electrolyte concentration.

There are 2 kinds of resistance in the cell. The Physical resistance due to the conductivity of the electrodes and the spacing of the plate. Then there is the EMF resistance from the electrolyte. The Physical resistance is very very negligible compared to the EMF resistance. Replacing your electrodes with one of lesser resistance will have a very very very very miniscule effect on the total resistance.

The only purpose for using exotic maetals is for corrosion protection. Stainless steel serves that purpose admirably and economically. There is no reason to use other exotic metals.

1973dodger
08-28-2008, 04:25 AM
If you read the pdf on the Chemistry and Manufacture of Hydrogen (in one of the threads here.), you will find that electrode material conductivity has very little to do with the amount of production.

Production comes from a 2 step chemical process that depends on the electrolyte concentration.

There are 2 kinds of resistance in the cell. The Physical resistance due to the conductivity of the electrodes and the spacing of the plate. Then there is the EMF resistance from the electrolyte. The Physical resistance is very very negligible compared to the EMF resistance. Replacing your electrodes with one of lesser resistance will have a very very very very miniscule effect on the total resistance.

The only purpose for using exotic maetals is for corrosion protection. Stainless steel serves that purpose admirably and economically. There is no reason to use other exotic metals.

Jojojaro,

I see you have moved up in the world, congradulations on the mentor status. My therory concerning the electrodes are; the less resistance, the less heat , as well as the less volts required to push the current. What are your thoughts?

1973dodger

JojoJaro
08-28-2008, 05:05 AM
Jojojaro,

I see you have moved up in the world, congradulations on the mentor status. My therory concerning the electrodes are; the less resistance, the less heat , as well as the less volts required to push the current. What are your thoughts?

1973dodger

Mentor status means nothing. They automatically promote you after you've posted 100 times. Even if it is 100 questions, you're still a mentor, go figure.

According to the PDF paper, the electrical resistance due to the physical resistance of the components (electrodes, wires, plates, plate spacing) is extremely minimal compared to the EMF Resistance provided by the Electrolyte for electrolysis. The heat comes from the EMF resistance. The Physical resistance is very small.

Sure, in theory, you will get less physical resistance with exotic metals,
but it is so insignificant a difference that it won't matter. The conductivity of stainless steel is relatively low already. Using exotic metals just won't get the resistance down that significantly. It's not worth it.

sp1r0
08-28-2008, 06:57 AM
Mentor stat still looks pretty cool... The only thing I can comment on here is that when using two different metals (I am using copper and SS316), if you hook the metal you don't want to oxidize (copper in my case) to the negative all will be good. The oxygen (-OH) is attracted to the positive and the (+H) is attracted to the negative. No oxygen, no oxidation.

EdCaffreyMS
08-28-2008, 10:20 AM
I had also consider Titanium for plates, and was wondering about it. I keep a lot of 6AL4V titanium in the shop (60% aluminum and 40% Vanadium). Most etchants such as acids and chlorides will not harm Titainium, but due to it's high cost, and the unknowns of introducing it into a potassium Hydroxide environment has kept me from trying.
From my experiences with plated materials, I suspect they would not work very well. Gold plating processes only use about 5VDC/300ma, and if plated materials are introduced into a bath environment with voltages higher than that, the plating is quickly eaten away, leaving you with the base material.

I'm certainly no expert on these issues when dealing with HHO, and can only speak from my experiences with the materials I mentioned. There could easily be something I'm missing or don't know.

Boltazar
08-28-2008, 12:36 PM
Has anyone mentioned Graphite and its capabilities yet or is this a bad idea.

1973dodger
08-28-2008, 03:28 PM
While SS has many good qualities, it has many poor qualities concerning electricity. There should be ongoing experimentation with other types of electrodes. Titanium is considered very good as well as carbon. I see no harm in bench testing any of these elements mentioned.

1973dodger

Painless
08-28-2008, 03:35 PM
Has anyone mentioned Graphite and its capabilities yet or is this a bad idea.

I have been giving some serious thought to graphite too, it is used in fuel cells and as an electrode in steel melters.

c02cutter
08-28-2008, 03:46 PM
Don't use 6AL4V, I have and the aluminum breaks done in the electrolyte. I'll post picks of it when I get home. Titanium should be pure if used. Turns into swiss cheese.

ElectricSquid
08-28-2008, 08:01 PM
There should be ongoing experimentation with other types of electrodes

1973dodger

I agree, even though the benifit might be minimal, every little bit counts.



I have been giving some serious thought to graphite too, it is used in fuel cells and as an electrode in steel melters.

ooOOhh http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/shocked.gif you said steel melter electrodes



What about in truck batteries? (not gel / deep cycle, just normal batteries)
I've heard about people using batteries as HHO generators, electrodes and all. Brings on an idea http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/think.gif

Since there is acid in batteries, and electricity too, wouldn't it be safe to @$$ume that battery electrodes/plates/connections would be perfect for our uses?

If so, what the hell are battery inards made of?

ElectricSquid
08-28-2008, 08:02 PM
Don't use 6AL4V, I have and the aluminum breaks done in the electrolyte. I'll post picks of it when I get home. Titanium should be pure if used. Turns into swiss cheese.

Thanks for the heads up. That just saved me a few bucks http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/wink.gif

ElectricSquid
08-28-2008, 08:13 PM
www.enviromentalchemistry.com to find the conductivity rating for the periodic table of elements

1973dodger

I think you spelled the link wrong or something.
...but I found the exact page you were refering to. Here's the link, and thanks, that's a usefull site.

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/electrical.html

Stevo
08-28-2008, 09:46 PM
If so, what the hell are battery inards made of?

Lead and Lead Oxide. I'm not sure this would be very safe.

countryboy18
08-28-2008, 11:50 PM
i dont care if it is not safe i have to find out it car batterys have any thing good inside to use. any tricks on how to get the acid out and not kill my self? thanks

scrode
08-29-2008, 12:47 AM
tip it over?:eek:

ElectricSquid
08-29-2008, 08:16 AM
tip it over?:eek:

http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/uglystupid2.gif LOL

I'm not sure how to get rid of the left over acid in a dead car battery, but just tipping it over on the ground is not the greatest idea, since eventually those chemicals will filter through to the ground water, and further down the line, into the lakes, streams, and rivers ... where we get our drinking water.

Stevo
08-29-2008, 08:26 AM
http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/uglystupid2.gif LOL

I'm not sure how to get rid of the left over acid in a dead car battery, but just tipping it over on the ground is not the greatest idea, since eventually those chemicals will filter through to the ground water, and further down the line, into the lakes, streams, and rivers ... where we get our drinking water.

OMG! That is the funniest smiley I have ever seen! hahahahaha! Yeh battery acid hurts.

Painless
08-29-2008, 03:37 PM
i dont care if it is not safe i have to find out it car batterys have any thing good inside to use. any tricks on how to get the acid out and not kill my self? thanks

How about tipping the acid into a container that already contains an equal amount of a strong alkali?

scrode
08-29-2008, 04:04 PM
http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/uglystupid2.gif LOL

I'm not sure how to get rid of the left over acid in a dead car battery, but just tipping it over on the ground is not the greatest idea, since eventually those chemicals will filter through to the ground water, and further down the line, into the lakes, streams, and rivers ... where we get our drinking water.

I was just being a smartass.


How about tipping the acid into a container that already contains an equal amount of a strong alkali?
he's right
There is probably a way (alot of baking soda) to neutralize the acid. I'm not a chemist or even close but baking soda neutralizes small amounts.

Q-Hack!
08-29-2008, 05:17 PM
The backup power system I worked at in Germany had a room full of batteries. We had a very large barrel of Sodium Bicarbonate there just for emergency clean up. It works very well as a neutralizing agent.

ElectricSquid
08-30-2008, 01:52 PM
I was just being a smartass.


All's good. I figured as much.
Just figured I'd add the environmentally friendly message in there for others that may read that and not quite "get it".

HHOhoper
08-30-2008, 07:04 PM
As far as electrode material goes, my research has led me to believe that Platinum would be the material of choice. Anyone have a couple thou they wanna give me?

scrode
08-30-2008, 09:39 PM
All's good. I figured as much.
Just figured I'd add the environmentally friendly message in there for others that may read that and not quite "get it".
:cool: Yeah, I see your point :p

Kobudoman
09-19-2008, 11:33 PM
Hey guys,
I don't think the plating idea would work. One side would gain plating and the other would lose it. ( I forget which is which though). I work in the swimming pool industry and we've been using electrolisis to make chlorine for years. That's how the "salt water" pools work. We put salt in the pool and use a cell (that has ss plates in it) to brake it into chlorine and sodium. The thing is we have a coating on our plates called urridium (I think that's the right term) that protects them from getting eaten up by the chlorine. I'm presently trying to get hold of some used cells to see about possibly recycling the inards. I'll post the results if and when I can get hold of the old cells.

countryboy18
09-20-2008, 12:19 AM
there is platinum in your catalytic converter just cut it out and take out the platinum.

H2OPWR
09-20-2008, 01:23 AM
The best possible electrode would be a copper plate electroplated with platinum. The problem is the cost. a 6" X 6" copper plate with 1 micron platinum electroplate would cost in excess of $150.00. I am in the process of building a 100 plate cell using 316L stainless. While the stainless has much higher energy loss due to high resistance and high thermo loss I can not justify the difference of $15,000.00 in cost of the plates.

Q-Hack!
09-20-2008, 04:39 PM
I have been playing with Silver Nitrate as an electrolyte and discovered that it coats the plates with what I think is silver plating. I need to find some silver polish to test this theory.

Q-Hack!
09-21-2008, 05:06 PM
No such luck...

I did the old DIY silver polish trick by boiling a mixture of 1Tbsp. salt and 1Tbsp. baking soda in 1 gallon of water with a piece of aluminum foil at the bottom. Works great on my silver flatware... not so much on my tarnished wall plate.

I am not sure what the tarnish is, but it ain't silver. Whatever it is, its on there pretty good. I have to use an abrasive to get it off. Since it is some form of anodizing, I may just leave it and see how well it works over the long haul.