Newbie with Questions

[crew02]

Hi guys,

I found a guy localy that was running a hho generator, with good results, so I made one for myself.

1.5 quart container, 8 TBS of Baking Soda per Gallon of Distilled Water
2 - 3/8 x 6 inch SS cariage bolts, with 3 - 3/8 x 1 1/2 SS Washers, 3/8 SS Nuts in between each Washer, per rod
Rods are space so Washers have a 3/8 inch gap between them
One rod is grounded, and the other has +12 volts going to it when the engine is running.
On the top of the container there is a 1/4 inch air regulator, that has a hose going down into the generator, bout a 1/4 inch from the bottom.
The output hose connects to the container via a Automotive brake booster valve [ only opens with vaccum]. The hose connects to a small inline air compressor water seperator, and then to a vaccum port at the base of the intake.
The unit draws more than 5 amps, but less than 10 amps, as far as I can tell [ blows a 5 amp fuse, but does not blow a 10 amp, but it does get a lil warm]

My question is, I have not seen any gain in MPG, if not a lil decline.
What can I do to make this work better.
Also, on 2 occasions, I have had the unit loose 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches of water over a 20 mile drive [after the unit had been running a while]

Thanks for any info
crew02

[Strange81Z]

I'm new to this myself, but as far as the water loss, I'd think that it's overheating and possibly boiling this adding moister into you engine (or water seperator). Does the water seperator show any signs of this happening? I wonder if you are getting water into your engine, this causing you to loose any potential gains? Just throwing out idea's.

[Ronjinsan]

Hi

Please explain the "Air regulator" bit. If you are pulling a vacuum you will need a one way valve to stop water sucking back into you generator on deceleration. I dont understand the air regulators purpose! 8Tbs of baking powder is waaay over the top! I use 2 teaspoons to 1 litre and thats a lot. Look as though the gap is too wide between your plates, try using a 3 or 4mm spacer and reduce your electrolyte. You dont have many plates and you are not using neutrals, this all leads to heat and lack of production. My suggestion to you......go and do more research and start again if you are serious about getting this working. Have a look on youtube at all the different types you can build.....run around this site a bit too, but dont expect to be succesfull with some nuts and washers....you will need a bit more than that to get results! Cheers:D

[crew02]

Hi

Please explain the "Air regulator" bit. If you are pulling a vacuum you will need a one way valve to stop water sucking back into you generator on deceleration. I dont understand the air regulators purpose! 8Tbs of baking powder is waaay over the top! I use 2 teaspoons to 1 litre and thats a lot. Look as though the gap is too wide between your plates, try using a 3 or 4mm spacer and reduce your electrolyte. You dont have many plates and you are not using neutrals, this all leads to heat and lack of production. My suggestion to you......go and do more research and start again if you are serious about getting this working. Have a look on youtube at all the different types you can build.....run around this site a bit too, but dont expect to be succesfull with some nuts and washers....you will need a bit more than that to get results! Cheers:D

The Air Regulator is used to let a very small amount of air into the container, I read on water4gas.com about using a bubler for an aquairium to do the same thing. It is supposed to make it generate more hydrogen. What do you mean by sucking water back into the generator on deceleration? I have a one way valve on the output side of the generator, it opens with the vacuum of the engine, and you cannot blow threw it backwards.
I used the 8TBLS of baking soda because that is what the guy told me he was using with gains of 8 mpg. My brother built one similar to mine, using 5/16 nuts, bolts, and washers, and has gained 5 mpg.
Maybe you are right, and I need to start over. Just getting a lil frusterated with this, as I have been running this for a couple weeks now with no gains.

[crew02]

I'm new to this myself, but as far as the water loss, I'd think that it's overheating and possibly boiling this adding moister into you engine (or water seperator). Does the water seperator show any signs of this happening? I wonder if you are getting water into your engine, this causing you to loose any potential gains? Just throwing out idea's.
I'm new too, so don't feel bad if you get confused :) I'm confused too.
I added the water seperator and sir regulator over the weekend. On my normal drive to work, I get maybe a teasoon of water in the seperator. I could have been overheating the generator, but it wasn't hot to the touch, and I opened it up, and the water was only luke warm [ maybe 100'F at most].I thought I could have sucked the water into the engine, that is why I added the water seperator, as a safety precaution, I don't know if this was the right thing to do or not.

[Ronjinsan]

OK crew I see where you are going here......so dont get discouraged. Lets start afresh. Firstly if you are going to take the HHO direct to the inlet manifold you will need a strong container as the vacuum is very high. Secondly you dont have an air valve...that sort of defeats the object! LOL The container must be airtight...the vacuum will reach its peak and anything that goes out with it will only be gas! The one way valve sounds right, is there a way you can take your cell out and post a picture for us to see? The other problem is the amount of Soda you are using points to another problem somewhere, thats why I would like to see your cell! Lets get you going properly! Cheers

[gasmakr]

Well said Ron.....that much soda alone would cause a heat problem....once you get your generator sorted out think about moving your o2 sensor out of the exhaust stream so the sensor dosen't read all the extra oxygen in the air stream:) when the computer sees all that oxygen it thinks it's running lean and adds more fuel.

[crew02]

OK crew I see where you are going here......so dont get discouraged. Lets start afresh. Firstly if you are going to take the HHO direct to the inlet manifold you will need a strong container as the vacuum is very high. Secondly you dont have an air valve...that sort of defeats the object! LOL The container must be airtight...the vacuum will reach its peak and anything that goes out with it will only be gas! The one way valve sounds right, is there a way you can take your cell out and post a picture for us to see? The other problem is the amount of Soda you are using points to another problem somewhere, thats why I would like to see your cell! Lets get you going properly! Cheers
I will get some pics up as soon as I can get time to do so, work has me running in circles lately, lol.


Well said Ron.....that much soda alone would cause a heat problem....once you get your generator sorted out think about moving your o2 sensor out of the exhaust stream so the sensor dosen't read all the extra oxygen in the air stream:) when the computer sees all that oxygen it thinks it's running lean and adds more fuel.

Ok, how do I move the 02 sensor outward?

Again, thanks for the help. :)

[gasmakr]

as long as your engine doesn't have any oil blowby a simple o2 extender adapter is all that is needed. if you have oil blowby do not add the extender because the oil exiting out the exhaust will get stuck in the adapter and foul out the sensor.if you add the extender....or even if you don't wrap the sensor in aluminum foil that will draw heat around the sensor heating it up this will cause the sensor to think the exhaust is very hot telling the computer to lean out the mixture.:)

[crew02]

Well after a couple days of not being able to get on the site, here are some photo's of my setup. Please, tell me what I need to do to make this work.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO1.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO2.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO3.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO4.jpg

[crew02]

More Photo's

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO5.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO6.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO7.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/crew02/HHO8.jpg

[Stratous]

You put 8 tsp of baking soda per gallon and its pulling >10 amps? Something doesnt sound right. Did you leak check your unit, its possible that you have a leak and your HHO is not making it to the engine? I see the color of the liquid which indicates the system is operating.

[crew02]

You put 8 tsp of baking soda per gallon and its pulling >10 amps? Something doesnt sound right. Did you leak check your unit, its possible that you have a leak and your HHO is not making it to the engine? I see the color of the liquid which indicates the system is operating.

You can see in the one picture that I have a scale marked on the container. When I filled the unit, the water was at 1, witch was on a Sunday. Drove to work [ 18 miles each way, 36 miles total trip], 4 times, and had not used any measurable amount of water. Drove to work the 5th time, and still had not used any water. Drove home that evening, and all the sudden I used almost an inch of water. The only thing that was different than any other day, I ran a few errands that day before I went home.

With this installed I have seen a decrease in mpg, 16.5 to 17 mpg using the device, 19.5 to 21.5 mpg without the unit.

I had an inline fuse holder, that is between the relay and the unit. It didn't blow a 10 amp fuse, but would blow a 5 amp fuse, after the unit had ran 20minutes or so. I tried to figure out how to hook my multimeter up to check the amp draw, but gave up. I think I need to buy an inductive amp clamp to check the draw.

The first week I ran the unit, I did not have the air valve [bubler] installed, and after running the unit, when I would try to open the unit, it would still have vacuum inside of it. All the holes thru the lid have been silconed, and the one way valve fits very tight.

Again, thanks for any wisdom.

[Stratous]

Try going straight into the intake instead of through the vaccume. Perhaps you have created a vaccume leak which could cause a decrease in MPG.

[crew02]

Try going straight into the intake instead of through the vaccume. Perhaps you have created a vaccume leak which could cause a decrease in MPG.

So what you are saying, is to not hook it to the nipple on the manifold, but hook it into the air intake hose? Would there be a preferance as to where to hook it at [ closer to the throttle body or farther away] ?

[hmfdesigns]

from what i see i would say lose the baking soda and find you some potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide which works much better and increase your water volume with such a small volume of water you are going to have heatinf issues even with only 2 electrodes you are feeding each of them over 12 volts. it takes 2.4 volts to make hydrogen so anything more than that and you are wasting energy in the form of heat. Another thing is you want to feed it into your intake as close to the tb as possible, and you do need a bubbler but it is inline with your output to prevent any backfire from entering your chamber. Make sure you are sealed very well i pressure check my cells to 110 psi before they ever go out they will never see that but its better to be safe than sorry.
good luck with the project

[crew02]

Try going straight into the intake instead of through the vaccume. Perhaps you have created a vaccume leak which could cause a decrease in MPG.Can someone explain to me where I should be hooking up to. Above the throttle plate or below it?

[Stratous]

Run the hose into your air filter box, I am trying to make sense of your cell design. In the first two pictures I see a wet hose. What is that for and is it inside your cell?

[volomike]

from what i see i would say lose the baking soda and find you some potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide which works much better and increase your water volume with such a small volume of water you are going to have heatinf issues even with only 2 electrodes you are feeding each of them over 12 volts. it takes 2.4 volts to make hydrogen so anything more than that and you are wasting energy in the form of heat. Another thing is you want to feed it into your intake as close to the tb as possible, and you do need a bubbler but it is inline with your output to prevent any backfire from entering your chamber. Make sure you are sealed very well i pressure check my cells to 110 psi before they ever go out they will never see that but its better to be safe than sorry.
good luck with the project

Looked at your site. Other than what looks like a well-designed product, and the fact that this really isn't a fuel cell per say, I'd be nervous about the HHO line that runs from the back of the vehicle up to the front -- that's a lot of HHO that could get bottled up and perhaps go kaboom.

However, you help me here when you say that it takes only 2.4 volts to make hydrogen and anything else is excess heat. Got a scientific source on that one, or lab tests that you've done? This might be part of my electrolyzer heat issue. I didn't have a huge one, but I had a minor one. If you wire this unit direct to the battery, how do you convert 12volts into 2.4 volts? With a capacitor?

[crew02]

Run the hose into your air filter box, I am trying to make sense of your cell design. In the first two pictures I see a wet hose. What is that for and is it inside your cell?
Well, from what I could gather from the water4gas design that I found on the net, it was doing the same thing as their adujustable air bubler. As vaccum is applied to the cell, it sucks a small amount of outside air thru the hose, which was at the very bottom of the jar. This was supposed to cause more bubles and create more HHO.

I think part of the problem with the unit I currently have is that there is not enuf surface area of the ss to produce any gains.

When I get a better understanding of the design that you are running, I will try and build one of them, and hopefully see some gains,

[Wako216]

from what i see i assume stratous is talking about the hose with the brass fitting on top... it appears to be one way valve of some sort to let air get sucked into the bottom of the cell when under a vacuum, to create bubbles? I think i can kinda understand the principal of this but maybe it was applied wrong in this case cause doing this is only gonna defeat the purpose of your vacuum line and cause your car to run funny basically its like having an open or cracked vacuum line.. right stratous?

[Stratous]

If thats the purpose, then WTF were they thinking. You just created a vaccume leak in your vehicle. Thats bad and can cause poor fuel economy. Basically, your sucking air through the water into your manifold. That I believe would be considered a vaccume leak

[Ronjinsan]

OK Crew lets gether all the info so far and diagnose your cell! Sorry I was off but I couldnt get onto this damn site for a few days and thought it was shut down! I was particularly interested in this thread and wanted to see you get going. Lets look at the main problems a/ Your plate surface area as mentioned is definately too small. b/ The idea of getting gas from water is that you are breaking the molecular bonds to release the hydrogen and oxygen atoms, these gases are then sucked into the engine to assist the combustion....sooo get rid of the pipe that allows air into the cell! c/ The gaps between your elements are very large and will require more electrolyte to accelerate the electron flow....upshot of this = heat, dirty water etc etc. I need you to see to these problems first. Go and buy some switch plates or SS plates of some kind and make a decent array first....I'm not going to tell you how because I think we have that covered elsewhere on this site, but get at least 7 plates for a +nn-nn+ arrangement if you can or minimum 5! Keep the gaps between the plates to around 2 to 3 mm but even! Take a pic and post again. We have a ways to go ! ;):D

[crew02]

If thats the purpose, then WTF were they thinking. You just created a vaccume leak in your vehicle. Thats bad and can cause poor fuel economy. Basically, your sucking air through the water into your manifold. That I believe would be considered a vaccume leakDing Ding Ding, We have a Winner, lol. I knew this when I added this on, but did so because it was supposed to increase production of HHO. I made another one over the past 2 days, without the air valve, going with smaller bolts ( 5 / 16 ) and more wahers per bolt, and also closed the gap up to less than 1/8th". I put in 1 TBLS of baking soda for the 1.5 quarts of distilled water in the container. After 20 mins or so of running, there was very little bubling. The unit wasn't realy even warm. I made sure I had power and ground to the posts. I am going to get to Home Depot this weekend and pick up stuff to make a cell like you guys are running, with the plate arrangement.

[crew02]

OK Crew lets gether all the info so far and diagnose your cell! Sorry I was off but I couldnt get onto this damn site for a few days and thought it was shut down! I was particularly interested in this thread and wanted to see you get going. Lets look at the main problems a/ Your plate surface area as mentioned is definately too small. b/ The idea of getting gas from water is that you are breaking the molecular bonds to release the hydrogen and oxygen atoms, these gases are then sucked into the engine to assist the combustion....sooo get rid of the pipe that allows air into the cell! c/ The gaps between your elements are very large and will require more electrolyte to accelerate the electron flow....upshot of this = heat, dirty water etc etc. I need you to see to these problems first. Go and buy some switch plates or SS plates of some kind and make a decent array first....I'm not going to tell you how because I think we have that covered elsewhere on this site, but get at least 7 plates for a +nn-nn+ arrangement if you can or minimum 5! Keep the gaps between the plates to around 2 to 3 mm but even! Take a pic and post again. We have a ways to go ! ;):D As you'll see in my last post, I change the arrangement around, and had very little results. I am going to go the Home Depot this weekend, and try to pick up everything I need to put one together like the one's that you guys are using. Maybe then, I will get some positive results.

[jerryrig]

Hey that is the same kind of container I am using in my tests...LOL...anyhow, things look good, and it looks like you worked hard on the unit. I am new here too, but for the first part, I would ditch the washers and bolts all together. I tried washers and they were just stainless and zinc plated, they rusted before I even hooked the thing up to a battery. Try finding some true stainless steel. I hate to say it but the kitchen department at walmart is a good first bet. I did not like the idea using kitchen stuff at first myself, but I got over that real fast when I was not geting any results.

Even though those bolts might say stainless steel, they are not food grade stainless steel and I think that is the ticket. Stainless steel falls into different catagories sometimes and those washers and bolts I think would be the bottom of the "Stainless" steel lists. Try to think of something that you know no one wants to rust or go bad, hence kitchen stuff.....I have even thought of a grid system with stainless steel grates for BB-Q grills.

Do some homework on stainless steel and you will now what I am talking about. Hope this might help. Sometimes it is good to just stand back, scratch your head and start all over...if you are geting frustrated, take a couple days off working on the unit, kick back, relax, and go at it again after a few days. Clearing your brain from the project sometimes is the best thing you can do.:D

[Ronjinsan]

Hey thats great...now we can start work on the real thing.....at lelast you had a good learning experience. Like my Dad used to say "best way to learn is to make the mistakes first"...All the best