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hygear
09-19-2008, 04:48 PM
Hi,
New to the forum,but not to hho generator construction or tuning mods.I've built several cells and done all the mods possible to my 05 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi 4x4.
I'm wondering if anyone has located a source that sells wideband efie's.This is the last thing I can install on my truck to further my mileage gains using an hho generator install.I have a large tero cell design installed presently that has an output of around 4 LPM.
This forum seems to lean towards sensor and leaning mods,so I hope I might find someone that has located an efie that is compatable with wideband sensors.
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated,and also anyone needing help or advice regarding cell construction I'd more than willing to help.

Thanks HYGEAR

Painless
09-19-2008, 05:22 PM
Hi,
New to the forum,but not to hho generator construction or tuning mods.I've built several cells and done all the mods possible to my 05 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi 4x4.
I'm wondering if anyone has located a source that sells wideband efie's.This is the last thing I can install on my truck to further my mileage gains using an hho generator install.I have a large tero cell design installed presently that has an output of around 4 LPM.
This forum seems to lean towards sensor and leaning mods,so I hope I might find someone that has located an efie that is compatable with wideband sensors.
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated,and also anyone needing help or advice regarding cell construction I'd more than willing to help.

Thanks HYGEAR

Your ram has wideband sensors? Does it have the california emissions package or is the hemi that different from my 06 4.7 ?

hygear
09-19-2008, 06:37 PM
I'm not sure about the calif. emissions package if they're wideband or not.I'm starting to think the hemi is in a class by itself,and I'm also not sure if calif. package is the same for your 4.7.Have you checked your voltages to detemine what type sensors you have?If it's like mine you should be reading around 7vdc for the heater wire and 2.5 to 3.5vdc on the other two(the fourth wire is the ground)remaining wires.Any voltage over 1 volt with the exception of the one that powers the heater which would read around 12vdc if it's a narrowband will most likely be wideband.These are the voltages for my vehicle and may vary from others.

Painless
09-19-2008, 06:52 PM
Ok, if you have one o2 pre-cat and one o2 after, then it's not cali emissions. I was under the impression that my o2 was a narrowband, just from what I've read, I'll have to get under there and hook in a voltmeter.

Painless
09-19-2008, 07:00 PM
I just dove into my 2006 dodge ram workshop and service manual, it states under the emission section that the o2 sensor will send a signal to the ECM that is between 0 and 1 volts, this is definitely narrowband. Not sure why you are finding a wideband in yours?

I take it you allowed the o2 time to warm up before reading?

hygear
09-20-2008, 12:07 AM
I just dove into my 2006 dodge ram workshop and service manual, it states under the emission section that the o2 sensor will send a signal to the ECM that is between 0 and 1 volts, this is definitely narrowband. Not sure why you are finding a wideband in yours?

I take it you allowed the o2 time to warm up before reading?

I checked voltages with just ignition on,with the engine running (but not fully warmed up) and with motor running at full temp.Same results with little variance with each of the readings,also checked both precat sensors just to be certain.Yep it's wideband alright,also have friends on other forums with the same year truck and motor,all have widebands some 04's as well.Does your truck have 1 precat and 1 postcat or is it like mine with 2 pre and 2 post?
At least you have good news being yours is narrowband,the 0-1 volts confirms that.It may be that they installed narrowband on the smaller motor for some reason.
Afr's are apparently tricky to get around,if not you would see them listed on flea-bay and numerous other sites selling hho wares.I'm not the only one searching for these,a lot of people are waiting for someone to develop one that works.Until then I'm stuck with my modest 14-15% increase with hho and other mods I've installed.

Jaxom
09-20-2008, 08:51 AM
I looked this up on AllData because the concept of a 4-wire wideband didn't sound right to me. On an '05 Ram 5.7, having 4 O2's is an indicator of Cali emissions, Federal emissions trucks only had 2 O2's. However, according to my information, they both use narrowband sensors. Also, I have never seen an O2 heater that operates at 7 volts. They are always 12v circuits, and normally on their own fused circuit.

Are you sure your meter is accurate and that you had a good ground when you checked this?

hygear
09-20-2008, 10:47 AM
I looked this up on AllData because the concept of a 4-wire wideband didn't sound right to me. On an '05 Ram 5.7, having 4 O2's is an indicator of Cali emissions, Federal emissions trucks only had 2 O2's. However, according to my information, they both use narrowband sensors. Also, I have never seen an O2 heater that operates at 7 volts. They are always 12v circuits, and normally on their own fused circuit.

Are you sure your meter is accurate and that you had a good ground when you checked this?




Okay went and got new meter,engine running for 30 min.and ground wire run dircectly from the battery.So here are the voltages I got,Btw I have meter set to 20vdc.
1)white wire # 1 4.64-5.35 bouncing
2)white wire # 2 0.06 steady
3)gray wire 2.58 steady
4)black wire 2.64-3.25 bouncing

Check both precat sensors with little or no difference,also the sensors were just replaced 3 weeks ago.
Now these readings were taken with the sensors plugged in,I don't know if that makes a difference or not.
What I've read and been told just seeing the voltages on black and gray wires mean wideband unless I missed something(and I sometimes do LOL)
Jaxom let me know what your opinion is on these voltages when you have time.
Thanks HYGEAR

Jaxom
09-20-2008, 11:40 AM
My opinion is that they're odd. I make my living on this stuff and I've never seen a wideband O2 with fewer than 5 wires. The Wht/Wht/Blk/Gry is a standard color code for a 4-wire heated narrowband O2. The two white wires are power and ground for the heater circuit, the gray is sensor reference (PCM ground) and the black is signal to the PCM.

The white wires are resonable, some PCMs will duty cycle the heater circuit once the sensor is warm, which would explain the bouncing 4.5-5.5v on the one white wire. The 0v white is the heater ground.

The gray has a 2.5v bias which is strange, it should show 0 volts. The black should fluctuate .1-.8v higher than the gray, so it's pretty close. It actually looks like you have a bad ground on the sensor return circuit.

hygear
09-20-2008, 12:03 PM
My opinion is that they're odd. I make my living on this stuff and I've never seen a wideband O2 with fewer than 5 wires. The Wht/Wht/Blk/Gry is a standard color code for a 4-wire heated narrowband O2. The two white wires are power and ground for the heater circuit, the gray is sensor reference (PCM ground) and the black is signal to the PCM.

The white wires are resonable, some PCMs will duty cycle the heater circuit once the sensor is warm, which would explain the bouncing 4.5-5.5v on the one white wire. The 0v white is the heater ground.

The gray has a 2.5v bias which is strange, it should show 0 volts. The black should fluctuate .1-.8v higher than the gray, so it's pretty close. It actually looks like you have a bad ground on the sensor return circuit.

Well here's another kicker,the other people I mentioned that had the same year and set up have similar voltages if not almost exact,and not just one but several of us.
The other forum I'm on fuelsaver the administrator sells efie's and he and others also stated the voltages indicated wideband also.He's currently delveloping one that should be ready around december.There's another member of that forum well versed in tuning for hho who also confirmed I had wideband after I posted the same voltages.
I wish my knowledge of sensors was a bit broader but right now I'm stuck with what I read and others tell me.
Thanks for taking time to help out and if you come up with anything to help out it's greatly appreciated.
HYGEAR

candyman55
09-20-2008, 12:14 PM
Hygear,
I have been reading your posts on some of the forums, check out the guys at underdog racing development and see if they can help you. I got a AFR sensor calibrator for my toyota. Seems like they knew a lot what was going on. Just type in URD on google.

Painless
09-20-2008, 12:39 PM
Does your truck have 1 precat and 1 postcat or is it like mine with 2 pre and 2 post?

My truck has 1 pre and 1 post, 2 pre and 2 post is the cali emissions setup as jaxom already stated.

I think we need to also double check exactly how you are connecting your test meter when checking the voltages?

hygear
09-20-2008, 01:00 PM
My truck has 1 pre and 1 post, 2 pre and 2 post is the cali emissions setup as jaxom already stated.

I think we need to also double check exactly how you are connecting your test meter when checking the voltages?

I can understand where I could've made a mistake,but with over a half dozen others with the same voltages and the same vehicle I don't think we can all be making the same mistake.
Also my meter is brand new and has the same readings as the old one.Also they only has 1 neg. and 1 pos. probes.I'm taking the redings right from the wire with the pos, probe and have the neg. probe connected sraight to the battery.I soldered a needle on the pos. probe and insert that into the wire.Same way I did when locating the wire to the ECM when I was installing the map enhancer and it worked fine.
That's everything I can think of regarding the way I was taking my readings.Please let me know if there's another way check this.

Thanks for the help
HYGEAR

hydrotinkerer
09-20-2008, 01:32 PM
If you look up alldata code 172 step 3 it gives the voltages for the o2 sensor at 2.5 to 3.4 volts with 0-5 volt range. That just came off alldatapro online. Doesn't sound narrow band to me. It's also a 4 wire sensor. OH, I do make a living doing automotive electronics trouble shooting.

hygear
09-20-2008, 01:48 PM
If you look up alldata code 172 step 3 it gives the voltages for the o2 sensor at 2.5 to 3.4 volts with 0-5 volt range. That just came off alldatapro online. Doesn't sound narrow band to me. It's also a 4 wire sensor.

That's what I've been saying is those voltages tell the story because no narrowband has those voltages, 0-1 volt and that what all the efie's on the market are set up to do is to adjust beteen that range and more accuratly between 200mv-450mv to control leaning air fuel ratio.
Btw thanks Candyman55 for the urd tip I'll give em a call and see what they say.And thanks to all who are trying to help your time is appreciated.
Oh yeah forgot to ask,Candyman how's that big honkin generator coming? You got it cranked up yet?

candyman55
09-20-2008, 06:51 PM
It's coming, I decided to rebuild the housing. The Polyethelyne was to soft and when it got up to about 160 deg. I was a little uncomfortable with that, so I used 1" plexiglas this time. It should have a better temp range and I can see inside. I will post on my thread on the other forum with pics within the next couple days. :D :D

hygear
09-20-2008, 07:51 PM
It's coming, I decided to rebuild the housing. The Polyethelyne was to soft and when it got up to about 160 deg. I was a little uncomfortable with that, so I used 1" plexiglas this time. It should have a better temp range and I can see inside. I will post on my thread on the other forum with pics within the next couple days. :D :D

Good luck with your build Candyman55,Can't wait for your post on your results,hope it's a gas LOL

hydrotinkerer
09-20-2008, 11:35 PM
I looked up a:
2003 ram 1500 5.9 vin z
2005 ram 1500 5.7 vin d
2004 dakota 4wd 4.7 vin n

They are all wide band o2 sensors. All 4 wire sensors. All of this came from alldatapro.com
All voltages stated were 2.5 to 3.4 midrange.

Keith's Garage
09-21-2008, 09:50 PM
I agree with Jaxom, these voltages are weird. I have seen 4-wire AF sensors, but usually the wire color is different. The voltages look like they could be that of a wideband sensor, but without seeing the voltages on a labscope it could be hard to tell.
I would be willing to bet that you have a narrowband sensor. Sometimes, especially on chryslers (their systems can be bass-ackward), the computer will have a built in resistor, or some other modifier. Look at the amount that the signal wire is switching, it looks like a narrow band sensor. How much did the new sensors cost you. A wideband sensor is going to be a lot more money than a standard narrowband.

Keith's Garage
09-21-2008, 09:53 PM
I looked up a:
2003 ram 1500 5.9 vin z
2005 ram 1500 5.7 vin d
2004 dakota 4wd 4.7 vin n

They are all wide band o2 sensors. All 4 wire sensors. All of this came from alldatapro.com
All voltages stated were 2.5 to 3.4 midrange.

On Mitchell, it calls all 4 sensors narrowband. A good way to find out is to watch the current flowing from the sensor. the PCM uses current instead of voltage.

hydrotinkerer
09-21-2008, 10:01 PM
Hygear, I guess if your not in the "know" hard data escapes some people. I have customers that come in the shop just as unreasonable.:rolleyes:

narrow band .1 - 1volt range right?
wide and afr 0 - 5volt range right?

Just pick a late model dodge p/u(for example on previous post) look up code #172 and GEE to my surprise it gave the voltage range of the o2 at 2.5 to 3.4. How you came up with wierd voltage, different wire combo's still does't change the obvious. Thats the data that came off two differet versions of alldata.

I have looked at the data on my scanner and it gave the higher voltage.

One version of alldata called them narrow band. When you went in and looked at the troubleshooting tree the voltages didn't match narrowband.

hygear
09-21-2008, 10:23 PM
On Mitchell, it calls all 4 sensors narrowband. A good way to find out is to watch the current flowing from the sensor. the PCM uses current instead of voltage.


Well I guess the jury is still out on this,because Allprodata and Mitchell have conflicting conclusions on which type Dodge uses.
Does anyone know someone that's a tech or that works at a Dodge dealership that can confirm which type I accually have?I've tried to call before to get info and was turned down.
I know some of you guys think the voltages are weird but you have to remember I'm not an isolated case.As I've stated I've found 5 or 6 others with the same truck and motor and we all can't have weird trucks.Our voltages are almost identical and at least 2 of them have tried to install standard efies with both having the same results,didn't work.
It'll be interesting to say the least to see how this is going to pan out in the end.

Painless
09-21-2008, 10:25 PM
I'll get under my 2006 4.7 ram Monday or Tuesday and see what my O2 is doing. The service manual say 0.1-1.0v, but the proof is in the pudding as they say.

hydrotinkerer
09-21-2008, 10:35 PM
On Mitchell, it calls all 4 sensors narrowband. A good way to find out is to watch the current flowing from the sensor. the PCM uses current instead of voltage.

Since when do you measure current and not voltage out of an o2 sensor?? Are you talking about the heater circuit? What is the output of an o2 sensors current? 20-30amps:confused:

hygear
09-21-2008, 10:40 PM
I'll get under my 2006 4.7 ram Monday or Tuesday and see what my O2 is doing. The service manual say 0.1-1.0v, but the proof is in the pudding as they say.


Thanks for helping out Painless post us the results.

Jaxom
09-22-2008, 02:03 PM
Does anyone know someone that's a tech or that works at a Dodge dealership that can confirm which type I accually have?

I just talked to my best friend Robbie...he's a tech at the local Dodge place (Locklear Chyrs.-Jeep-Dodge.) He tells me that these trucks use a narrowband O2 which has a 2.5v bias voltage on the sensor reference. The 2.5-3.5v reading is really just a 0-1v range with a 2.5v bias.

If your output voltage is fluctuating up and down very quickly, that's another indication of a narrowband sensor. Widebands don't "switch" back and forth the way narrowband sensors do.....they have a relatively stable output. Also, Keith is right about the price...wideband O2s are expensive.

hydrotinkerer
09-22-2008, 02:48 PM
IF that was the case then your 2.5 bias + 1volt(maximum o2 voltage)=3.5 volts. Still doesn't come close to the 5volts that sensor is capable of putting out. Where does that extra voltage come from? His pockets?

hydrotinkerer
09-22-2008, 03:12 PM
You guys keep screaming in everyones ears they are narrowband. So what!, Then answer why they don't work with narrow band EFIE's. When your dealing with a sensor that works on 0-5 volts. These people don't care about voltage's or what kind of sensor. They just want their hard earned money and results. When some one comes up with a o2 sensor enhancer that works on higher voltage then there's no problem. Instead of looking at the code I gave, You ask someone that in all probability didn't have a clue. Instead they tell you all have narrowband sensors in camo. Good answer.

Jaxom
09-22-2008, 04:33 PM
Actually I have looked at the DTC chart, and nowhere does it say "wideband sensor." 5v is not within the sensor's output range, it's a pullup voltage applied to the signal circuit by the PCM. The chart specifically says that operating voltage should be between 2.5 and 3.4v. It will only read 5v when the sensor is either cold or disconnected. Once the sensor warms up, if the voltage does not drop the sensor is considered bad. This is mentioned in the heater circuit test step of the procedure. You should really read and understand something before you try to quote it as evidence against somebody.

Narrowband EFIEs won't work in this case because they are specifically designed to output 0-1v. If you designed a narrowband EFIE that allowed for the bias voltage, it would work.
"Higher voltage" is not the only issue with building a wideband EFIE. If it was that simple it would be on the market already. A wideband also has a different (non-pulsing, higher definition, and inverted) response curve. That means the whole circuit would have to be designed from scratch. That's not likely to be done by a company because it would only be applicable to a few specific vehicles...the potential sales for a make-specific unit wouldn't justify the costs to design and market it.

I'll be sure to tell Robbie how you feel about him. Being a UTI graduate and professional tech, I think he'll be quite offended.

Any more questions?

hygear
09-22-2008, 04:49 PM
[quote=hygear;13373]Okay went and got new meter,engine running for 30 min.and ground wire run dircectly from the battery.So here are the voltages I got,Btw I have meter set to 20vdc.
1)white wire # 1 4.64-5.35 bouncing
2)white wire # 2 0.06 steady
3)gray wire 2.58 steady
4)black wire 2.64-3.25 bouncing


I guess that would be my pocket,the first wire I tested the other day had between 4.64 and 5.35 and was not steady was bouncing back and forth.And with the engine not running,cold,ignition on and sensor unplugged its a steady 7vdc.
Btw for what it's worth the sensors I bought several weeks ago from the Dodge dealer were $57.59 each.

Keith's Garage
09-22-2008, 07:16 PM
Jaxom, you are completly correct. Thats exactly what I was trying to say in my last post, I just could not think of the wording.

Hydro,
On a wide band sensor, the PCM does not monitor the voltage coming from the sensor, it monitors the amount of current. This is why I asked about the current. Jaxom was correct when he said that the voltage on a wideband sensor varies slowly, this is because it is monitoring the current, not voltage. Please do not act like WE are stupid when YOU don't know what you are talking about.

hydrotinkerer
09-22-2008, 07:40 PM
If you read the previous post #21 I said alldata said they were narrowband and I said they had voltage like a wideband. In my over zealous frustration with this and other things(no excuse) I got insulting for that I apologize to all.

hygear
09-22-2008, 07:54 PM
Guys it wasn't my intention nor desire for several of you to be at each others throats in trying to solve a problem which is still my original purpose posting this thread.Your posts are starting to become to say the least hostile and this is in my opinion UNPRODUCTIVE.
I would rather see the thread die right here right now rather
than for this to continue,which would make any progress that was made for not.
Any further friction and I'll avoid the thread altogether.Sorry for my strong feelings on this issue,but correct me if I'm wrong(and I don't think I am)that's not what these forums were created for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Painless
09-22-2008, 09:39 PM
Guys it wasn't my intention nor desire for several of you to be at each others throats in trying to solve a problem which is still my original purpose posting this thread.Your posts are starting to become to say the least hostile and this is in my opinion UNPRODUCTIVE.
I would rather see the thread die right here right now rather
than for this to continue,which would make any progress that was made for not.
Any further friction and I'll avoid the thread altogether.Sorry for my strong feelings on this issue,but correct me if I'm wrong(and I don't think I am)that's not what these forums were created for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I couldn't agree more, I hate it when threads turn that way.

Actually, hygear, I think your answer may lay in the method I was planning to use to address my O2 sensor when the time came. I am planning to build a voltage adder. Basically, a small circuit with a 5v regulator followed by a fixed resistor to bring the voltage down to 1v, then into a potentiometer to adjust it to tenths of a volt. This signal would be wired in series with the O2 output, the result, a modified to lean signal.

hygear
09-22-2008, 09:56 PM
I couldn't agree more, I hate it when threads turn that way.

Actually, hygear, I think your answer may lay in the method I was planning to use to address my O2 sensor when the time came. I am planning to build a voltage adder. Basically, a small circuit with a 5v regulator followed by a fixed resistor to bring the voltage down to 1v, then into a potentiometer to adjust it to tenths of a volt. This signal would be wired in series with the O2 output, the result, a modified to lean signal.

When you tenths of a volt do you mean 100mv at time?Sorry electronics aren't exactly my strong suit.Also did you have time to verify the voltages on your truck today?I'm curious as to what they are.

Painless
09-23-2008, 07:57 AM
When you tenths of a volt do you mean 100mv at time?Sorry electronics aren't exactly my strong suit.Also did you have time to verify the voltages on your truck today?I'm curious as to what they are.

I'm talking about being able to take the O2 voltage and add a small amount to it, the whole band of the potentiometer from fully anti-clockwise to fully clockwise would be about 1v difference.

Measuring my O2 is on my list for today (Tuesday).

hygear
09-23-2008, 10:28 AM
I'm talking about being able to take the O2 voltage and add a small amount to it, the whole band of the potentiometer from fully anti-clockwise to fully clockwise would be about 1v difference.

Measuring my O2 is on my list for today (Tuesday).






Today I found a company that sells wideband efies(the ONLY one I've found),the unit has a 10 turn pot that goes from 0-5vdc.They don't sell a dual unit but the support tech said I can just use 2 units and control each one separate.Tech also said people were using these on the new Dodges with no problem.One thing he did say I liked was if it didn't do the job I can return it for a full refund(less shipping of course).The units are $50 each which is about as much as a narrowband dual unit costs.
I would like to get other opinions regarding this before I order one,but please guys without the friction.:)

Keith's Garage
09-23-2008, 11:21 AM
Painless, I think your idea of a voltage adder to the O2 is perfect. I have actually been working on that exact device.

Hygear,
The device that painless is talking about is just what you need. Also could you give us the link to the place with the EFIE for widebands, I am very interested in it.

Also, I apologize for the part I played in the friction on this thread.

hygear
09-23-2008, 12:29 PM
Painless, I think your idea of a voltage adder to the O2 is perfect. I have actually been working on that exact device.

Hygear,
The device that painless is talking about is just what you need. Also could you give us the link to the place with the EFIE for widebands, I am very interested in it.

Also, I apologize for the part I played in the friction on this thread.

Hey no harm,no foul and no apologies are needed,we're back on track and that's all that matters.A few times I myself have been just as guilty when in a heated disagreement posting a forum.I'm glad we chose to leave it behind and move forward to solving the problem at hand.
Speaking of which I agree that It's definitely worth a shot in the dark,seeing as the efie voltages are in the same parameter as the sensors,and the 30 day money back guarantee.I will say I know nothing about this company nor their business history,that's another reason why I wanted to pay a personal visit before I buy.If you decide to buy from them it's your own doing.
I did post the sensor question on the Hemi club forum,but these guys want to see how much gas they can waste romping their hemis,so I don't know what kind of answer I'll get.
Here's where I located the wideband efie.They're about an hour and a halfs drive from me and I may have a job further south next week.They said I can pick them up at their office no problem(save some shipping costs anyway).Btw these guys can custom build pwms up to 100 amps,but have a hefty price tag as well.

PWMPOWER.COM

Jaxom
09-23-2008, 01:14 PM
I want to throw out there also that I'm sorry if I got a little excessive with the attitude. I get riled up sometimes.

Hygear...the device you're talking about looks like it will work with a wideband O2, but I don't believe it's going to suit your purposes. It most likely will not pulsate the output the way your O2's do, and therefore will cause trouble codes and a check engine light.

Painless's idea about a simple voltage adder should work, as long as it's a floating adder (not referenced to battery/engine ground.) I'm not enough of an EE to design it myself, but I think that capacitors could be used to decouple a voltage divider from ground, with a Zener diode to keep the divider stable. The caps would have to be small to keep up with the O2's fast signal response. I just don't know enough to pursue it further.....it's an idea anyway.

hygear
09-23-2008, 01:50 PM
I want to throw out there also that I'm sorry if I got a little excessive with the attitude. I get riled up sometimes.

Hygear...the device you're talking about looks like it will work with a wideband O2, but I don't believe it's going to suit your purposes. It most likely will not pulsate the output the way your O2's do, and therefore will cause trouble codes and a check engine light.

Painless's idea about a simple voltage adder should work, as long as it's a floating adder (not referenced to battery/engine ground.) I'm not enough of an EE to design it myself, but I think that capacitors could be used to decouple a voltage divider from ground, with a Zener diode to keep the divider stable. The caps would have to be small to keep up with the O2's fast signal response. I just don't know enough to pursue it further.....it's an idea anyway.


I know what you mean when it comes down to electronics,I'm pretty much all nuts and bolts myself(mostly nuts according to the wife but what does she know LOL).
Sounds to me like I should wait and see what Russ comes up with before I drop another $100 into my system.I'm starting to wonder why Pwmpower is the only company selling wideband efies.A lot of folks are anxiously waiting for these and you'd think at least one person on Flea-Bay would be selling them.Since this mornings post I found somewhat bad ratings for Pwmpower on the OU power forum some guy had posted that they were terrible to deal with.
Anyway let's wait and see what Russ finds out and go from there,also still haven't got an answer regarding what type sensors from the Hemi club as of yet but will post it when I do.

Thanks for everbodys help with this!!!!!!!!!!!

hygear
09-23-2008, 05:49 PM
As I posted earlier that I left a post question on the Hemi truck club forum.I got 2 hits on it so far and the first guy said narrowband but not much else,so did the second guy and had a bit more to add.I had to send another post to this guy for clarification because he also said narrowband then something about adding on a wideband to get the information I need(your guess is as good as mine)and both guys said the O2s use 0-5v.
Sooooooooooo I guess we'll have to wait for the next episode to get the rest of it,and I will post when I get it.

Painless
09-23-2008, 06:12 PM
I have to apologise for not getting under my truck and checking out the O2 sensor today, I had big issues with the new cell I was trying to get built leaking. I will get to it!

hygear
09-23-2008, 07:14 PM
I have to apologise for not getting under my truck and checking out the O2 sensor today, I had big issues with the new cell I was trying to get built leaking. I will get to it!


Hey Painless no worries first things first and leaky cells come first,I'm in no great rush to solve this.Although like a good mystery novel I can't wait to see how it ends.

Thanks

hygear
09-23-2008, 10:26 PM
Well here's the best I could get from the Hemi worshippers club.Man and I thought the OU power forum was stuffy.If you're not out romping in your Hemi truck as fast as it'll go these guys want nothing to do with those of us trying to conserve fuel.Anyway here's my vage answer and probably all I'll get.

The voltage has nothing to do with either narrowband or wideband.

The Dodge happens to be a 5v system where many other vehicles are based on a 1 volt system.

Most stock pcm's use narrowband sensors.

If you need accurate measurements of A/F, your best bet is to get a wideband system with its own wideband sensor.



And here's the other guys intelligent answer!!!!!!!!!1


And now you know and knowing is half the battle.
This is my Hemi, there's many like it but this one is mine.



I've often wondered where Private PYLE went!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahahahahaha
I posted my voltages and this is what I got,go figure.:mad:

Painless
09-29-2008, 02:29 PM
Well, I just got under my truck (after finally sorting out my cell this morning), my pre-cat O2 sensor has four wires coloured Blue, White, and two Black (one might be gray?).

Looks like I will have to scrape some of the shielding off to measure voltage though, anyone any idea as to which wire I should work with?

Painless
09-29-2008, 02:32 PM
Just got under there again with a flashlight, it's definitely one blue, one white and two black.

My Ram is a 2006 4.7L by the way.

hygear
09-29-2008, 07:28 PM
Well, I just got under my truck (after finally sorting out my cell this morning), my pre-cat O2 sensor has four wires coloured Blue, White, and two Black (one might be gray?).

Looks like I will have to scrape some of the shielding off to measure voltage though, anyone any idea as to which wire I should work with?




Hey Painless Instead of having to scrape the insulation solder a pin or needle onto your positive probe and just push through the insulation so it just leaves a tiny hole you won't have to tape up.

Painless
09-29-2008, 08:07 PM
Now that's a good idea! I'll get measuring first thing in the morning.

Painless
09-30-2008, 10:30 AM
Here are the results for the O2 sensor on my 2006 Ram 4.7 v8, they were taken after the engine had reached it's normal operating temp:

Blue: 2.6 to 3.2 volts
White: 2.5 volts steady
Black1:19 to 39 millivolts
Black2: 8 to 10 volts

This was with HHO disconnected. I'm going to assume that blue is my O2 feed to the computer, black2 the heater wire.

If anyone with more knowledge can help here I would appreciate it. For example, what is the base voltage or bias the O2 signal is using?

If someone could confirm my thoughts about the blue wire or set me straight I will then go ahead and wire that temporarily to a voltmeter in my cab so I can watch what it does on the road with and without HHO.

Painless
09-30-2008, 10:56 AM
Reading back through the thread again, it looks like my findings match what Robbie the Dodge tech said. Base voltage (bias) of 2.5v with a 1v fluctuation.

I'm thinking that this is going to be easier to watch and read with an analog meter, digital makes it tough to 'see' the middle, if you know what I mean. Shame I don't have one and can't afford one right now either :(

hygear
09-30-2008, 11:33 AM
Reading back through the thread again, it looks like my findings match what Robbie the Dodge tech said. Base voltage (bias) of 2.5v with a 1v fluctuation.

I'm thinking that this is going to be easier to watch and read with an analog meter, digital makes it tough to 'see' the middle, if you know what I mean. Shame I don't have one and can't afford one right now either :(


The wire with the fluctuating voltage should be going to ECM with data.The Dodge forum guys said that Dodge sensors are narrowband,except work on higher voltage than other narrowbands.I wonder if an efie that operated on 0-5vdc would work.Standard narrowbands operate on 0-1vdc,but I guess if it was that easy someone would have an efie just for Dodge voltages.Just a thought.

Comments anyone?

Painless
09-30-2008, 12:12 PM
The wire with the fluctuating voltage should be going to ECM with data.The Dodge forum guys said that Dodge sensors are narrowband,except work on higher voltage than other narrowbands.I wonder if an efie that operated on 0-5vdc would work.Standard narrowbands operate on 0-1vdc,but I guess if it was that easy someone would have an efie just for Dodge voltages.Just a thought.

Comments anyone?

hygear, I'm still convinced that my voltage adder is the way to go. I'm going to build something that uses a 1.5v battery for simplicity, then when I'm happy I'll move up to a regulator and 12v from the vehicle.

With the battery, it will literally be: O2 signal -> Battery negative then Battery positive -> Resistor -> potentiometer -> (temporary volt meter) -> ECM

The potentiometer should be big enough to kill the complete 1.5v initially, then you can gently increase it and monitor results.

Painless
09-30-2008, 06:06 PM
I ran a test this afternoon with some recycled parts I had lying around. I put a single AA battery into a holder and wired it to a 10k pot, from the pot I ran one side to ground and the other to my voltmeter, which I also connected to ground.

The results were very encouraging, by turning the pot I could create anywhere between 0 and 900 milliv olts. Adding this simple circuit in series with the O2's output to the ECU should work great. It will also work well on systems that use a voltage bias, like mine.

Keith's Garage
09-30-2008, 06:23 PM
Hey guys. I finished the my voltage adder. It works perfectly. I will put the schematics up soon. this device will be exactly what you need for a dodge.

Painless
09-30-2008, 07:55 PM
I made a typo, will go back and correct it. The circuit will allow you to add between 0 and 400 millivolts. Can't see that you would need to add more anyway.

hygear
09-30-2008, 09:40 PM
I made a typo, will go back and correct it. The circuit will allow you to add between 0 and 400 millivolts. Can't see that you would need to add more anyway.


Got this from Mike at FUELSAVER.ORG after discussing narrowband higher voltages on Dodges.



Thank you. I've heard hints about biasing before, but I've never seen anything definitive on it. I'm sorry I didn't understand what you guys were talking about sooner. I haven't seen these before.

OK, now if Dodges are just adding a voltage bias, there's no reason the EFIE won't still work with them. Note that the EFIE will float on top of whatever voltage is being sent on the sensor wire. The white and green signal wires are not tied to ground in any way, so the efie won't care if there's a voltage bias added to the signal wire. Whatever voltage it sees, it will just add it's own voltage to it.

I think the biggest confusion this has caused is making us think that you were dealing with an AFR sensor. The next possible confusion is knowing which wire is the signal wire. That will be the one that's fluctuating, of course. But once you have located the wire, you can install the EFIE normally. It should behave like any other EFIE installation.

After digging into this further, I found I was mistaken on a point about oxygen sensors that made this biasing seem impractical. I thought the sensors were tied to ground through the body of the sensor.

These sensors, are obviously isolated from ground, and therefore can have the biasing added without obscuring the sensor's signal.

The EFIE will work fine with this scenario. You just need to make sure you select the wire that's actually changing. You will have another wire that supplies the 2.5 volt bias from the ECU, but it will be a steady voltage.

I apologize for taking so long to catch on to what you guys were talking about. And I appreciate the persistence you've collectively shown to get to the bottom of this issue.

I'd like to get some PMs from you when you have successfully connected your EFIE. Once I'm confident that we have this figured out, I'll add the appropriate notes to the installation instructions so that others, hopefully, will have an easier time of it.




That's good news Mike,I was starting to wonder if I was ever going to resolve this.Do you have any sugestions regarding how I would start to adjust the efie to my voltages?The blue wire that fluctuates between 2.5 and 3.5 I'm sure is the one going to the ECM.Is that the range I should start no higher no lower or different?




No, the bias doesn't change anything regarding the EFIE voltage. The EFIE will work exactly the same. The sensor is exactly the same too. It's just using 2.5 volts as it's "ground". If you were to measure the sensor between the signal wire and the voltage reference wire (instead of ground), you would see the same voltages we expect from an oxygen sensor.

So, we can add the same voltages with the EFIE. I would guess that you'll end up around 250 mv, but you might want to start lower than that, and make sure that you are getting gains at lower voltages before bringing it up. At some point you'll go too far and your mileage will plunge, which will mean you've gone too high.



Sorry for the monster post but I thought it might help with our Dodge Efie problem

Painless
09-30-2008, 11:53 PM
Thanks for sharing that hygear, its good to know that there are EFIE's that will work with biased O2's.

I just got under my truck in the dark with a lantern and cut my O2 signal wire (blue) I took a long twin core cable and connected one core to the wire coming out of the sensor and the other core to the wire going to the ECU.

Inside the truck I twisted the two cores together and attached the positive of my voltmeter to it, I then connected the negative to the ground in my cigar lighter.

I waited for the vehicle to go to closed loop and watched the voltage both with and without HHO. To be honest, I couldn't discern any differences. Perhaps I need to observe under load instead.

I'm driving my wife to baltimore tomorrow for a medical appointment, hopefully this will give me a chance to see the difference with HHO before I wire in my voltage adder.

hygear
10-01-2008, 05:38 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone that helped out to solve this Dodge O2s mystery.The guys on other forums are also thankful.I've been at this problem for two months now but in the end the solution is at hand,now I can move on to higher mileage gains hopefully.

Good job and thanks again
HYGEAR

Painless
10-22-2008, 10:46 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone that helped out to solve this Dodge O2s mystery.The guys on other forums are also thankful.I've been at this problem for two months now but in the end the solution is at hand,now I can move on to higher mileage gains hopefully.

Good job and thanks again
HYGEAR

Hygear,

Was wondering if you had any updates on this. Did you find an EFIE device that worked with our sensors?

Russ.

theramsey3
11-09-2008, 02:00 PM
you have a narrow band o2 and should be able to use a standard efie but you have to wire it in a series being signal wire to efie ground to efie positive to ecu wire