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cosimo
10-05-2008, 02:14 PM
I've herd all kinds of aditives to add in your electrolyte to keep from freezing. Does any one know what is the best and safest way to keep from freezing ?

M34me
08-10-2009, 10:19 AM
I'm surfing a bit here looking for the same answer. Apparently no one knows?

Makes me wonder if this doesn't have something to do with why the auto manufacturers aren't producing anything with HHO. Other than the Acura powered supercar, The Scorpion, I haven't seen this technology used mainstream.

dtots89
09-03-2009, 06:26 PM
what happens if you throw a little anti-freeze in there?

IM2L844
09-03-2009, 10:11 PM
The recommended concentration of KOH (28% by weight or roughly 2 pounds per gallon of distilled water) will not freeze in your home freezer, but I'm not sure about colder climates.

If you don't use that high of concentration or if you're still concerned, use denatured alcohol which is available by the gallon at Lowe's.

Here is a pretty good idea of how to use it:

8 ounces (1 cup) of denatured alcohol per gallon will protect against freezing down to about 10F.

16 ounces (two cups or 1 pint) per gallon of water will protect down to 0F.

24 liquid ounces (3 cups) per gallon will protect down to -15F.

and, 32 ounces (1 quart) per gallon will protect down to -30F.

rcflyn
10-04-2009, 11:18 PM
WOW, 2 Pounds per gallon, What kind of amp draw is that going to create on my Cell? I just started the HHO "Trial & Error" process this spring & have been seriously wondering about Winter coming up.
I've got a "Modified" version of a smack booster in my van right now. I'm only using about 2-3 teaspoons of KOH per 2 quarts distilled water and I'm drawing 15-24 amps (cold and warm).
I can't even fathium what TWO POUNDS per gallon would do to me.
I DO have a PWM, but its not installed YET. Too many Projects, Ideas and plans going on right now. But, I Guess I'd BETTER Get the PWM Installed if I've gotta start thinking about TWO POUNDS per gallon...


QUOTE=IM2L844;31988]The recommended concentration of KOH (28% by weight or roughly 2 pounds per gallon of distilled water) will not freeze in your home freezer, but I'm not sure about colder climates.

If you don't use that high of concentration or if you're still concerned, use denatured alcohol which is available by the gallon at Lowe's.

Here is a pretty good idea of how to use it:

8 ounces (1 cup) of denatured alcohol per gallon will protect against freezing down to about 10F.

16 ounces (two cups or 1 pint) per gallon of water will protect down to 0F.

24 liquid ounces (3 cups) per gallon will protect down to -15F.

and, 32 ounces (1 quart) per gallon will protect down to -30F.[/QUOTE]

rocky62
02-10-2010, 09:12 PM
What if you used window washer fluid? I do and I haven't had a freeze up yet. My hydrogen production I think is about the same. I hope it will not hurt my engine in any way.

twiget
09-02-2010, 12:43 AM
The more water is diluted by another substance, the lower freezing temp becomes, and the higher the boiling point becomes. You can illustrate this pretty easily by trying to freeze salt water. The more salt you add to the water the lower the freezing point becomes. Remember back in the day when you mom would be boiling water to cook spaghetti noodles, and she would dump some salt in the water? The salt wasn't for flavor, it was to raise the boiling point of the water. Hotter water means the noodles would cook faster.

If your HHO generator is running 28% KOH, then the freezing point of the water is somewhere around -13C (according to my math). I'd be more worried about the bubblier's freezing. When I build my system in a few weeks, I'm going to be adding some windshield washer fluid to the bubbler to make sure the freezing temp is well below 0C.

Here is a link to a quick tutorial on how to calculate the freezing or boiling point of a liquid: CLICK (http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Freezing-and-Boiling-Points.topicArticleId-21729,articleId-21699.html)

myoldyourgold
09-02-2010, 01:47 PM
Koyo, and what do you do with your bubbler? I would think mixing alcohol with KOH it would dissipate over a short period coming out with the HHO. Rubbing alcohol has got a large portion of water in it. I have not found any problem if the KOH is mixed to the max or at least stronger than usual. I have seen frozen reactors but never seen a reactor frozen solid where it pushed out gaskets or did any damage with stronger that usual mixture. It usually just stays slushy and takes longer to warm up and start making any volume of gas. I am talking of weather of -40º F or below. For long runs a PWM would be necessary. If the car is pluged in when not running and the reactor/reservoir is mounted in a warm spot for winter (I found this necessary) the only problem is the bubbler. In winter I have used a mixture of light oil and other chemicals in the bubbler. No water. To do this it requires a flash port on the bubbler and a normal flash back devise before the bubbler and a filter like device to keep electrolyte out of the flashback device. Be safe!!

mytoyotasucks
09-02-2010, 09:36 PM
I have never found anything for here in Canada for winter, I just take it out.
No HHO for winter.

And havnt installed it in my current car, just havnt had time.
And have not even opened my dry cell from last year, just sits in a bucket, but will clean an get ready for next year.(spring)

myoldyourgold
09-03-2010, 10:14 PM
You give up to easily. Not easy but possible.

keiththevp
09-04-2010, 02:29 AM
The cheapest and easiest solutions I found ...

use straight windshield washer fluid for the bubbler.

For the cell two options:

Use a high concentration of electrolyte (down fall you have to change the bubbler water more often)

Get a cheap 10-20 dollar underwater aquarium heater, build into tank, and plug in at night. (works great uses very little power but forget to plug it in and your screwed)

jwhhopower1978
12-02-2010, 11:29 AM
I plan to winter use my hho system and to regulate curren trow a digital constant current pwm.

To maintain water in liquid form on cold days the electrolyt needs to contine 14% naho of water weight to maintain water liquid dowm to -4 F / -20 C

20% should hold it liquid down to -22 F / -30 C

My question:

To protect my engine form electrlyte steam, Do 2 bubblers in series filled whit alcohol bases liquid
(whit a special filter in the bottom thats brakes the bubbles to mirco bubbles)

and one microfilter/flashback protector dry out the hhogas enough?

My dry cell is a 5N x 6 stacks in series and I plan to feed it whit 10-20amps, so the temp should not be warmer that 105-122 F on longer runs.

I have also a pump (1gmp) that helps to cool the elektrlyte.

And the gas do bubbel trow the water resivoar also before it leds in to the bubblers.

If I put the gas trow a nozzel and light it up, and the color is white/blue whitout yellowish... is the gas dry enough? (have not test it yet)

IF Im burning naho what color will that show?



thanks guys

astrocady
12-02-2010, 12:53 PM
I would think just some plain ole auto antifreeze in the bubbler would be fine.

jwhhopower1978
12-02-2010, 02:32 PM
The liquid in bubblers I´m not worried abote..

how abote the high concentrate of naho in the drycell maby up to 14-20% (to protect the aluminium inside my engine)

Do you think my system will provent that naho steam stays in the bubblers ?

or do you think I must ad some more filteration after 2 bubblers ?

astrocady
12-02-2010, 03:20 PM
Don't know about NaOH, put Larry told me once that he left an open container of 28% KOH outside all winter in Anchorage and it never even showed signs of crystallizing, let alone freezing solid.

jwhhopower1978
12-02-2010, 03:28 PM
I know all abote that..

But, is 2 bubblers enough to prevent water steam/electrlyte steam in to the engine?

Does 2 bubblers dry out the hhogas enough?

Sorry my gramma is bad..

astrocady
12-03-2010, 08:36 AM
2 well designed bubblers is plenty to remove the electrolyte and any true steam that might be present. However, since the bubbles are passing through water, I can't say the gas would be "dry". All visible signs of water vapor will be removed but the humidity of the gas is likely high.

jwhhopower1978
12-03-2010, 03:26 PM
Yes, understand.. my drycell is 5N whit 2,7v per cell so small amount moist will still by there. I think small amount of moist is only good for the combustion, water injection effect..

Main thing is to leave most of the naho in the bubbler.. I´m going to do a burn test and study the color of the flame..

Do anybody know the color of the flame if am burning naho?

I guess for winter use I have the alt. to mix less naho and mix in alcohol to the electrolyte.. ethanol, isopropanol base alcohol, correct ?

abe58
12-03-2010, 07:25 PM
Try Vinegar in the bubblier,it will wash any acid that leaks by. If your making steam your running your cell to hot. Turn your amps down,steam is not HHO.
Good Luck

jwhhopower1978
12-04-2010, 04:50 AM
thats right abe58, cell is running actually fairly cool it´s a big 32 plate, and I feed it whit only 10-15amps. Just want to be sure that most of the NaHo stays in the bubblers..

Yes, I have read abote Vinegar in the dryers/bubblers but to winter use whit subzero temp it´s going to freeze..

curious,do there exist eny other acid that do subzero temps?

I´m planing to fill my 2 dryers whit a mix of ethanol and isoprapanol

mytoyotasucks
12-05-2010, 10:20 AM
I have tried many combinations of things to combat freezing and have not found anything to work in Canada here.

Bill_rouit
01-06-2011, 01:49 PM
Check out this site, gonna help you :
http://dieselproducts.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php

myoldyourgold
01-06-2011, 06:08 PM
Heaters using the current produced by the engine will reduce the gain you get with HHO or even possibility eliminate it. Use heat that is normally wasted like the exhaust or the radiator coolant. If you are going to heat.

Bill_rouit
01-07-2011, 03:47 AM
I ment to use heaters while the car is not running. there are some heaters that do not take much power from the battery, and just keep the solution from freezing. i guess you dont need that while the electroliser is working.

myoldyourgold
01-07-2011, 06:02 PM
Bill your solution for when the engine is not running is a good one. I use a small one under my battery and it gets plugged in with the block heater. It runs off of house current though. I was talking about when the engine was running and below freezing weather. The reactor runs to cold, if it is an efficient one, under real cold conditions and you end up with little gain if any in some cases.

DUG-KOH
01-26-2012, 05:16 PM
Greetings

Being from the great white north I have done some research on freezing points

The attachment is what I have discovered.

I only considered KOH vs a couple of alcohols.

I would only use KOH or NaOH and 316 or 316L stainless

Doug

arigatou
03-28-2012, 01:47 AM
I've seen the frozen reactor, but have never seen a reactor frozen thrust washer or strong mixture, usually without any damage. It usually just stay muddy, take longer to warm up, and began to make any volume of gas.