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1973dodger
06-27-2008, 06:23 AM
I am new to this forum as well as new to the HHO Revolution. Man this is addicting. So far I have wasted more gas than I have saved, going back and forth to Lowes, but I am hopeful all of this will pay off. I am very appreciative to all who have taken the time to record their experiences and respond to questions. I have been studying and researching for the past couple of months concerning how to build my cell, how to install it in my vehicles, an so on. Through all of my research, I have yet to find out which gas is produced off of the neutral plates, assuming oxygen is attracted to the positive plates and hydrogen is attracted to the negative plates. Does it depend on which pole the neutral plate is closest to?

Sincerely,

1973dodger

amwewa66
06-28-2008, 04:11 AM
The Anode (pos) produces oxygen and the Cathode (neg) produces hydrogen. The neutral plates are used as a voltage/heat reducer and produces the molecule to which plate it is closest to.

Here is a link that may explain it better. http://www.answers.com/topic/electrolysis

1973dodger
07-01-2008, 05:36 AM
Amwewa66,

Thanks for your reply. One interesting experiment I tried the other night, was to use a copper neutral plate, sandwiched between a SS positive plate and a SS negative plate and put it in a solution of DW w/ lye and applied current to it for 5 minutes max. Then I took the test cell out to disassemble and inspect. The result was, the side of the copper neutral plate which faced the neg SS plate turned geen with oxidization and the side of the copper neutral plate which faced the pos SS plate was clean with no oxidazation. Am I to take from that the oxidized side was producing oxygen and the side which was clean was either producing hydrogen or producing nothing? Any thoughts?

1973dodger

Johnh
07-02-2008, 04:32 PM
Thought i'd repost this here so a neutral plate search finds it JH

A Neutral plate is not really a plate with no current, the current is induced into the plate through the electrolyte. But the current must be flowing from + to - so neutral plates outside the + and - connections have no effect.

The Neutral plates make as much H and O as any others.

EDIT ... the side of a neutral plate closest to the anode becomes a cathode producing hydrogen and the other side becomes an anode pruducing oxygen .....

If you are talking about a 12 volt system -NN+NN- is not really ideal as you still have 4 volts across each plate the volt drop looks like this
-4N4N4+4N4N4-

We are looking for between 1.5 and 2 volts so -2N2N2N2N2N2+ is better. As Stratous said it really only takes 1.4 volts but that is under laboratory conditions with ideal plates and ideal electrolyte concentration and we probably cant achieve that in practice so aim for between 1.5 and 2

The other way to achieve this is with cells in series so we could have
-NN|.........|NN+ or -....||.......||.......||.......||......||......||. ...+ (........ is the wiring between each cell) and end up with the same result 2 volts across each plate.

There is one down side to neutral plates and that is if you put them in a cell with water all around them the current on the edge may bypass the plate and go straight from + to - heating up the electrolyte without producing any gas. This is why in the Tero the plates have gaskets all the way around and in some on UTube (see zero fossil fuels videos)they have filled up most of the way around with epoxy or something else nonconductive, just leaving enough room for the gas to get out and the electrolyte to get in at the bottom.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer
Regards
John

1973dodger
07-03-2008, 04:09 AM
thanks john for your information. it just seems odd to me that a neutral plate can attract both hydrogen on one side and oxygen on the other side. my understanding is that hydrogen has a positive charge and oxygen has a negative charge, hence the reason hydrogen bonds to the oxygen to make h2o, (since opposites attract) also the reason electrolosis works is you put a stronger charge in the water, both pos. and neg., which causes the h20molecules to split and attract the different electrodes respective of the opposite charge of each molecule. hence pos. hydrogen attracts to the neg. plate and neg. oxygen attracts to the pos. plates. so what i am having trouble understanding is how a neutral plate can have a neg. static charge on one side of the plate and a positive static charge on the other side of the same plate. perhaps, because it is a static charge, instead of a direct charge.

1973dodger

Johnh
07-03-2008, 02:53 PM
Think you will have to look at a hydrogen text book for help here.
I'll put my take on it, but I'm not a scientist or a real expert in this field only an inventor and tinkerer trying to understand it, so if anyone more knowledgable wants to dispute this feel free!

The reaction is much more complex than that its all about the water molecules closest to the cathode absorbing electrons to break the hydrogen bond and releasing Molecular Hydrogen and hydroxyl ions, and the water molecules closest to the anode donating electrons which releases oxygen molecules and hydrogen ions. The current doesn't appear to actually flow through the cell, the electrons are either adsorbed or emitted by the water molecules closest to that plate. as the hydroxyl ions and hydrogen ions are not gasses they remain in the solution so only hydrogen is released from the cathode and only oxygen from the anode.

As far as the neutral plate is concerned I think it is like any conductor in a series circuit - it is more negative on one end than the other. and in this case the sides of the plate are actually the "ends" of a very short conductor.
Regards
John

1973dodger
07-03-2008, 03:09 PM
just so you understand, i am not trying to be "hard-headed" about this. i just think the more we understand about the process and why it works, the more we can understand how to solve the problems which may arise.

sincerely,

1973dodger

timetowinarace
07-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Our designation of "neutral" plates in the hho community is not electronicly correct. They are not neutral. Using neutral plates simply creates a series circut. They have been termed neutral because there is no wire connected to them. However they are very much electricly connected in the circut. The term neutral has come from lay persons and has become a common term for series connected plates.

Designs that do not use neutral plates are parallel circuts.

dennis13030
07-03-2008, 03:44 PM
Our designation of "neutral" plates in the hho community is not electronicly correct. They are not neutral. Using neutral plates simply creates a series circut. They have been termed neutral because there is no wire connected to them. However they are very much electricly connected in the circut. The term neutral has come from lay persons and has become a common term for series connected plates.

Designs that do not use neutral plates are parallel circuts.

I agree. It's terminology. I'm an electronics engineer and I am OK with calling a plate inside the eletrolyzer that is not WIRED up as a neutral plate. I know the plate is biased because it is sitting in the electrolyte and between the anode and cathode.

It's sorta like saying that a secondary coil of a transformer is isolated from the primary. If it was completely isolated, it would not function. In this case, it just passes the AC component and blocks the DC component.

ELECTR0N3RD
07-04-2008, 01:43 AM
I agree. It's terminology. I'm an electronics engineer and I am OK with calling a plate inside the eletrolyzer that is not WIRED up as a neutral plate. I know the plate is biased because it is sitting in the electrolyte and between the anode and cathode.

It's sorta like saying that a secondary coil of a transformer is isolated from the primary. If it was completely isolated, it would not function. In this case, it just passes the AC component and blocks the DC component.

ok now im starting to get the neutral plate thing., pretty cool.