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Painless
10-10-2008, 10:31 PM
I noticed that several people have started discussions, within other threads, about water injection. I wanted to try and bring this altogether under one thread so we could maximise our information sharing.

Even if you're simply interested in utilising water injection but don't have anything to contribute at this point, please post so we can get an idea of how many are interested in this.

I'm going to start by saying that I built a system which I installed today using a coffee jar and an air stone. I think though that I need to move it to a higher vacuum area.

I also found this link which is very interesting and discusses various techniques:

http://waterfuel.100free.com/water_injection.html

Let's get together in one place and share our information and experiences of WI.

kerry k
10-11-2008, 12:53 PM
I have been using water injection on my turbo cars for a long time. Cools the intake charge. The set-up I am using is little or no cost.
Parts:
Cold start injector from a 80's Saab, VW, or Bmw.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/k2nk/turbo_151.jpg
In line fuel pump and relay
Windshield washer tank
I have mine set up on a pressure switch to come on at 12 psi boost. On a N/A car I guess you can use a microswitch on the throttle body.

Painless
10-11-2008, 02:00 PM
Nice setup, thanks for sharing.

I have mine hooked up to use vacuum from the throttle body of my truck, but its just not pulling enough to move any vapour.

I'm thinking I either need to hook into the manifold vacuum or setup some kind of forced injection before the throttle body.

Is yours a self build or a kit? Can't see too much detail as I'm at my sons football game on my blackberry, is your injection point in the air system or direct to manifold?

resago
10-11-2008, 03:36 PM
what about using those ultrasonic mist devices?

Painless
10-11-2008, 04:28 PM
what about using those ultrasonic mist devices?

Yes! I had the same thought. Wondering if they would pump out enough?

kerry k
10-11-2008, 08:24 PM
Nice setup, thanks for sharing.

I have mine hooked up to use vacuum from the throttle body of my truck, but its just not pulling enough to move any vapour.

I'm thinking I either need to hook into the manifold vacuum or setup some kind of forced injection before the throttle body.

Is yours a self build or a kit? Can't see too much detail as I'm at my sons football game on my blackberry, is your injection point in the air system or direct to manifold?


what about using those ultrasonic mist devices?

No kit, Just junk yard parts except for the pressure switch. Normally I run a mix of 20% methanol 80% h2o except when I am on the track then I run straight methanol.
Installing the cold start injector is easy. Just drill a hole large enough to slide the injector tip in and 2 pilot holes for a couple of sheet metal screws. I used a piece of fuel line as a gasket. Has not leaked yet even at 26 psi boost. The injector wiring is easy. 12 volts on, doesn't matter which wire is positive. As for placement I have mine 6 inches before the throttle body to ensure complete atomization before it reaches the intake.

Clayne_b
10-19-2008, 04:31 PM
I have it on my 92 cummins. it makes a big difference on my exhaust temps, and i think it gives me a little more hp, ive had it on my truck for a while now and have absolutly no complaints, i got mine from snow performance. it is regulated off of boost pressure. and is fully adjustable from like 5 psi to like 25 psi.

Painless
10-19-2008, 10:36 PM
Been thinking about other ways to make water injection work and still remain simple, here's what I came up with:

RamAir Water Injection

1) Mount a funnel behind the grill of your vehicle, where it will get a good strong stream of air as you drive.

2) Attach a hose to the end of the funnel and lead this to your water-tight container.

3) Run the hose through a barb and down to an air stone sitting in the water.

4) Run a hose barb from the top of the container and run this to the air intake.

Theoretically, air being forced into the funnel should accelerate and create positive pressure through the air stone, forcing water vapor and air through the barb into the air intake.

Issues I can possibly see:

1) Too much air pressure might just send floods of water into the air intake, this would need to be experimented with before attaching to the intake. Maybe run the outlet hose out of the hood and to the bottom corner of your windshield so you can see what kind of water ejection you are getting. A sponge in the top of the water container might help here.

2) Some kind of filter might be required between the funnel and the water container to prevent blockages.

Definitely going to try this setup as soon as I get my extenders on and have affirmed my mileage gains with just HHO.

Any thoughts?

Stevo
10-10-2009, 11:22 AM
No BS. Pretty simple installation as well. I use two 32 oz. polycarbonate containers with 2 inlet silicone inlet hoses and one main 1/4" output hose from each.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2655/4009644334_5be015e95d_o.png

Stevo
10-10-2009, 12:08 PM
Here's a video showing the units in action:

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For all those who cannot see the video: http://tinyurl.com/yjjs2ap

Helz_McFugly
10-13-2009, 11:20 AM
great work Stevo. Im going to give it a shot.

Stevo
10-13-2009, 03:04 PM
great work Stevo. Im going to give it a shot.

Thanks. Be sure to use 3% isopropyl alcohol by volume to help the water vaporize much quicker. I use two containers because one container drains too quickly.

Supplies

I found the containers at Target in the sports bottle section for $5 each. They are made from Naglene-like material and come with a silicone lid seal. I then used a drill press to make a perfect 3/8" hole in the center and threaded it with a large tap then screwed in my 3/8" x 1/4" NPT pipe fitting. The bottom of the container is a hydrophilic sponge from Home Depot and the blue silicone tubing came from Petsmart. After all that, I simply cut my sponges to size (slightly oversized keeps them from floating) and punctured a hole halfway through each piece for the silicone hose to be inserted.

Make sure everything is well sealed. I need to apply some Goop to the outer parts of the bottle where the hoses enter to help seal the containers a tiny bit better. I did slightly undersize those holes so that the silicone tubing would fit tightly, but I would rather know for sure that it's sealed.

Also, a venturi might be hard to find on your vehicle... For me it's simply the charcoal canister line out. Once you find one, YOU will have to keep from jacking the MAF sensor reading so you need to route the canister input tube to a place in the intake arm AFTER the MAF instead of before it. The output tube can just be the venturi vacuum entry point wherever that is... If I could see the engine in front of me, I'm sure I could provide better detail.

Other thoughts

I can very easily set the base ignition timing (not dynamic), but you will probably not be able to do that so easy or even at all. One other thing you can do is drop to a lower octane fuel. My success has been with upping the base ignition timing 2 degrees and using one fuel grade below what is normally suggested for that setting. So my settings look like this:

18 BTDC + 89 octane

Helz_McFugly
10-13-2009, 03:43 PM
I cant really tell what yours is doing and where all your hoses go and how exactly it works but Ive got somewhat of an idea. I think Im going to get a small air pump that runs off dc, like for a live tank in a boat rather then use vacuum to create bubbles. I have a perfect spot for it on my intake. I moved my MAF sensor. It about 4 inches away from the throttle body now, it was right up on it. I did that for my HHO.
So can you make a sketch of how yours works?

You video doesnt work BTW

Stevo
10-13-2009, 04:19 PM
I cant really tell what yours is doing and where all your hoses go and how exactly it works but Ive got somewhat of an idea. I think Im going to get a small air pump that runs off dc, like for a live tank in a boat rather then use vacuum to create bubbles. I have a perfect spot for it on my intake. I moved my MAF sensor. It about 4 inches away from the throttle body now, it was right up on it. I did that for my HHO.
So can you make a sketch of how yours works?

You video doesnt work BTW

Here is a sketch:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2655/4009644334_b8ddcf433b_o.png

btw- you might want to ensure that you have Flash player enabled in your browser to see the movie. Anyone else who cannot see the movie, pls let me know. It's well worth the 2 minutes to watch.

Stevo
10-13-2009, 05:26 PM
So this is the way you could route yours:

----------->WVI>
-----------^-----^
]MAF]==^===[^ThrottleBody[

the insert at the ThrottleBody is the venturi which will have lower pressure than the intake arm due to faster moving air. This means that airflow will move through the WVI chamber, through the sponge and towards the ThrottleBody. No wasted electricity or moving parts needed. Sorry for the dashes and ASCII art. iPhones suck here :\

spicerman
10-15-2009, 09:32 PM
Stevo

I love it!! Its simple yet effective! ........Help me understand.

I have a question about the siphon and primer tubes. Does one go into a third container, to refill the 2 canisters, as they empty? And the other is the air intake to the canisters. Is that black "F" shaped fitting special, like a venture that draws water from the fill container???? Does your refill container have to be higher for the siphon to work?
My vacuum ports are not centrally located. The PCV and the fuel canister ports are both on the side of the engine. (Chev. v8) I could drill and tap a 1/4 NPT fitting right next to the throttle body for more even distribution.

Any special reason for using silicone hose??

Good job!!! :D Jesse

Stevo
10-18-2009, 10:28 AM
Stevo

I love it!! Its simple yet effective! ........


In the picture above, the F shaped tee is actually just there for siphoning so the two horizontal hoses are not hooked into anything. See first attachment.

Now for the Venturi portion... I am wondering where the fuel canister output is routed. Don't even waste your time with the PCV unless for some reason it is routed to the throttle body. Here is a bit of reference on the Venturi effect:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Venturifixed2.PNG/300px-Venturifixed2.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

I would imagine that the throttle body has some sort of vacuum routing, but I wouldn't know as the last Chevy I owned was a '67 C-10 pickup with the 289 small block. Carburetor had a Venturi I believe.

Stevo
10-18-2009, 11:24 AM
Here is what you could do if you have to deal with a MAF sensor (see attachment).

spicerman
10-18-2009, 11:51 AM
If the "F" tee is there for nothing .....why use it??? Are they both just open to the air?? The term "siphon" implies dealing with liquid. So I thought one tube would used to refill/replace water being drawn into the engine. How do you refill the water canister as it empties out??? You didn't mention in your earlier post where you got the siphon tee.

Thanks!!

Helz_McFugly
10-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Im going to attemp it. thanks man. Might be a week or so. I just got my HHO system all put together yesterday. I wanna see my gains from it first.
I have no clue if my car has a venturi or a charcoal canister. its an 08 charger 3.5 liter V6

Stevo
10-18-2009, 09:01 PM
If the "F" tee is there for nothing .....why use it??? Are they both just open to the air?? The term "siphon" implies dealing with liquid. So I thought one tube would used to refill/replace water being drawn into the engine. How do you refill the water canister as it empties out??? You didn't mention in your earlier post where you got the siphon tee.

Thanks!!

It's purely simple I promise you. :)

So there is an F, right... The top most horizontal tube is placed in a glass of water. The second one down, you apply a small amount of suction for a second until the water reaches that tube and then stop. Siphoning will do the rest. So yes this system does work of siphoning when refilling only and that's the only reason I used a tee. Now, as far as why it's even there at all?... hmm -- it's the air inlet tube and the only way for air to enter the bottle/chamber down through the sponge(s), pick up humidity/vapor and exit the bottle then to the intake manifold via the throttle body.

My design requires no opening of the bottles, ever, unless you need to work on something inside. Matter of fact, I need to refill them right now. :D

Stevo
10-18-2009, 09:12 PM
Helz,

Look all underneath and around the throttle body area for any vacuum hoses. I am interested to know what that shiny little body attached to the throttle body is. That might be the area you are looking for. BTW - this would also be the perfect place to inject HHO as it's as close to the throttle body as you can get.

spicerman
10-18-2009, 10:13 PM
Yesterday I installed my new mini-boiler. Its clamped to the top side of the exhaust manifold. Its a 2"x2"x6" thin wall metal tubing. I made the first one out of 1"x1"x6"x1/8" wall tubing and it didnt do the job. I had some slugs of hot water spiting out. We'll see what this one will do.

I was injecting water directly on the throttle plate. I did gain 2+ mpg.

I eliminated the nozzle and rerouted the water down to the boiler. (1 oz per min) The steam is routed up to the place where the nozzle was via a 24 in piece of 3/8 tubing. Tomorrow will be my first run.

My last tank of fuel I used the VOLOFS2 + 1 LPM of HHO and got 22.8 mpg (156 mls. and filled using the same pump) I have 17 mls on this tank so we'll see how it works

Helz_McFugly
10-19-2009, 08:22 AM
Helz,

Look all underneath and around the throttle body area for any vacuum hoses. I am interested to know what that shiny little body attached to the throttle body is. That might be the area you are looking for. BTW - this would also be the perfect place to inject HHO as it's as close to the throttle body as you can get.
thats the trottle possion. its whats turning the butterfly falve in the throttle body. Ill try and look under it and see if theres any vacuum lines going to it but from what I can see now, it doesnt.

Helz_McFugly
10-19-2009, 10:53 PM
ok ive figured out how to setup a venturi port. Im still unclear on how all your vacuum lines are run and what you are talking about poking a hole half way through the line thats in the sponge??? Ide need a drawing to figure it out. I cant decode your explanation man

spicerman
10-19-2009, 10:57 PM
Stevo..
According to the drawing that you referenced to, that showed the Air box, MAF sensor and throttle plate .... Shouldn't one of the air inlet hoses (siphon hoses) be taking the air form after the MAF , then into your canisters and to your engine. If you suck too much air that bypasses your MAF you could trigger the check engine light. It happened to me. Maybe in a small engine like the 1.6Ltr. its OK
What ever works!!

Stevo
10-19-2009, 11:12 PM
Stevo..
According to the drawing that you referenced to, that showed the Air box, MAF sensor and throttle plate .... Shouldn't one of the air inlet hoses (siphon hoses) be taking the air form after the MAF , then into your canisters and to your engine. If you suck too much air that bypasses your MAF you could trigger the check engine light. It happened to me. Maybe in a small engine like the 1.6Ltr. its OK
What ever works!!

Hehe... huh?! That drawing was simply to show the vacuum path.

http://hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1378&d=1255879507

Yes, the low pressure side is the canister inlet tube and the high pressure side is the canister output tube. The canister for that drawing would be different than my current setup as the air drawn through the canister has already been metered by the MAF sensor and the canister would have to be completely sealed, so no vacuum leaks at all.

[MAF]--->IntakeArm----->[Canister]------>To Venturi

On My D16z6 there is no MAF, only MAP :D :

IntakeArm----->[Canister]------>To Venturi-->[MAP]

I don't have to worry about that BS. The air entering the Venturi pipe comes in before the throttle plate (approx 1/3"). Tune-ability that's why I bought this experiment car in the first place though I haven't actually done any tuning to this one yet.

spicerman
10-19-2009, 11:43 PM
Stevo

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I appreciate your patience. Your video kinda showed that but was hard to see. Simple is GOOD!

Thanks again :o

Helz_McFugly
10-20-2009, 08:15 AM
I think I got it now.

spicerman
10-20-2009, 11:25 PM
Thanks Helz !! :D

Helz_McFugly
10-21-2009, 06:50 AM
spiceman, my car doesn't have a venturi so I've improvized one into my intake hose just before the throttle body so if you need help with your build I'll be posting pics and blueprints on my design. I'm also not using any vacuum lines such as the charcoal canister. I think it will work very well. I'm going to start on it this weekend. I'll keep you posted. I'm thinking about making one bottle for water and a second for making a gas bubbler for gas fume injection. Not sure yet but the water is my main project for now

spicerman
10-21-2009, 08:40 PM
Helz...

Yah Man! I like that idea!
I have 3 vacuum input into the manifold. The brake vac hose is in the far back center, The PCV is far right, and the canister is far left. There is no ports that go into the throttle plate area. If you want an even mix to all the cylinders it should be at the throttle plate.
I thought about drilling and tapping a 1/4 NPT fitting into the manifold, close to the base of the throttle plate housing and running a copper tube in and under to the bottom side and have it mix from under neath. That way all cylinders would get an even mix. If I did that, I could put my HHO and steam vapor in together:cool: What do you think??? If it didn't work ......plug it.

I would like to see what you are working on. Pics would be great:D

Helz_McFugly
10-22-2009, 10:54 AM
NO dont do that. you want to port just before the butter fly on the low negitive pressure side of the throttle body. if you put it behind the butterfly where there is vacuum when the butterfly is closed, it will only pull vapors when the throttle is closed, like at idle. when ever you stop on the gas it would open the butterfly and lose vacuum. SO what Im doing is fabricating my air intake hose. Say its 3" all the way from the air filter to the throttle body. now if I shrink it down to 2.5" just before the throttle body the back to 3" at the throttle body you ahve a vanturi in the small space right after the 2.5" bottle neck in that little space thats 3" just before the throttle body. here is a diagram of how Im going to set mine up. the only thing I left out was the refill hose for the WVI. you can add an extra hose that jsut ports into the top of the WVI, just rev your engine and it will suck it in or you could use the hose from the low pressure side to suck the water into the WVI. Im going to make a extra port so Im not alwasy having to disconnect the low pressure hose to refill.

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1382&stc=1&d=1256223259

spicerman
10-22-2009, 07:14 PM
Helz...

Good idea!! It will work. How much can you neck the venture down ?? just enough to get good suction..But not enough to restrict/starve the engine. Too much will effect power but maybe not the economy.
My steam & HHO is going in where your drawing shows.

I'll take some pics of what I'm doing to give you a better Idea
[ A picture is worth a 1000 words]

Helz_McFugly
10-22-2009, 07:53 PM
yea Im not going to restrict it to much, just enough to make bubbles. ill get a vacuum gauge to check it.

Roland Jacques
10-22-2009, 09:47 PM
NO dont do that. you want to port just before the butter fly on the low negitive pressure side of the throttle body. if you put it behind the butterfly where there is vacuum when the butterfly is closed, it will only pull vapors when the throttle is closed, like at idle. when ever you stop on the gas it would open the butterfly and lose vacuum. SO what Im doing is fabricating my air intake hose. Say its 3" all the way from the air filter to the throttle body. now if I shrink it down to 2.5" just before the throttle body the back to 3" at the throttle body you ahve a vanturi in the small space right after the 2.5" bottle neck in that little space thats 3" just before the throttle body. here is a diagram of how Im going to set mine up. the only thing I left out was the refill hose for the WVI. you can add an extra hose that jsut ports into the top of the WVI, just rev your engine and it will suck it in or you could use the hose from the low pressure side to suck the water into the WVI. Im going to make a extra port so Im not alwasy having to disconnect the low pressure hose to refill.

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1382&stc=1&d=1256223259

Man i was thinking the samething with a venturi and intake before the TB.

FWIW. If you make your hole size smaller instead of 2.5" say 1.75" your fuel consumption will go down from that alone. Some run thier cars like that all the time. Kind of detuning the car to run leaner. Higher manifold vac and lower mass air flow...

Helz_McFugly
10-22-2009, 09:54 PM
Man i was thinking the samething with a venturi and intake before the TB.

FWIW. If you make your hole size smaller instead of 2.5" say 1.75" your fuel consumption will go down from that alone. Some run thier cars like that all the time. Kind of detuning the car to run leaner. Higher manifold vac and lower mass air flow...

I didnt know that, thanks for the info.

Stevo
10-22-2009, 11:22 PM
Roland,

That is a good point, but not exactly how each engine will respond. I had a 3" g-doggy chrome-r-ific intake arm from the AZ. After running that in the beginning of my experiment (4 weeks ago) then swapping for the stock 2.25" rubber intake arm (1 week ago), I have seen a 2-4 MPG decrease. After the next fill-up and before the weather changes here in Tejas, I will be swapping the arms right back out and running the chrome leader. :) Now all I need is platinum caps on my two front teeth. Yeaah BOEEEII!

In a true medium to strong Venturi-style fitting, the bigger ID intake arm will work correctly. A special intake arm that goes from 4" down to 3" and then tapers down to throttle body size perfectly would work very well.



Extra O2 from intake air box pressure (like what you could get from a really well made cold air intake or ram air) can certainly boost your burn and cooling efficiencies. This is a super easy mod in one way or another for most people.

Roland Jacques
10-23-2009, 02:49 PM
Stevo, yeah im sure thiers many variables and what you discribed is on the other end of that airflow issue.
The results when we tested air ristiction were fairly consistant. But im talking small holes. the holes ranged from 1.75" down to 1" for some. About 10 or more folks tried it, and most all saw increased MPG's. That said, knowing it or not, I'm sure they lost some HP and performance. I tried it on my sons V8 Towncar which is a bit overpowered to start with. It was a single blind test and he got about 20% gain. I'll try to find the thread.

Helz_McFugly
10-23-2009, 03:12 PM
I used a simple hose clamp around my rubber intake hose and cranked it down to about 2" ID. It didnt bind or bend it out of shape, I now have vacuum where my HHO is ported in. I tested it last night with a bottle I had rigged up to messure HHO output. I stuck the hose in the hole where my HHO is ported in and it sucked bubbles through about 4 inches of water pretty good when I got about 1000 RPMs. it really pulled it through at 2000, at idle it bubbled very little but bubbled none the less. So when I get the WVI built it should work great.
So far I dont seem to have lost any HP. and I checked my mileage today after using 3/4 tank with my new HHO system and Im getting 25MPG. 19MPG without HHO. :D

hhonewbie
10-23-2009, 04:01 PM
after using 3/4 tank with my new HHO system and Im getting 25MPG. :D

With or without FS2?

Helz_McFugly
10-23-2009, 07:12 PM
with. I havent run my car without the FS 2 sinse Ive had it. before I had the FS2 I was down to 14MPG. so I can say with confidence that it works, but I think I could get better gains if I had full control of the ECM, by an AFC or EFIE's. Or having my ECM custom programed

Stevo
10-24-2009, 12:12 AM
I used a simple hose clamp around my rubber intake hose and cranked it down to about 2" ID. It didnt bind or bend it out of shape, I now have vacuum where my HHO is ported in. I tested it last night with a bottle I had rigged up to messure HHO output. I stuck the hose in the hole where my HHO is ported in and it sucked bubbles through about 4 inches of water pretty good when I got about 1000 RPMs. it really pulled it through at 2000, at idle it bubbled very little but bubbled none the less. So when I get the WVI built it should work great.
So far I dont seem to have lost any HP. and I checked my mileage today after using 3/4 tank with my new HHO system and Im getting 25MPG. 19MPG without HHO. :D

That's superb! I am very glad you were able to achieve this. Good job! You are getting the right amount of gains with HHO, so that keeps me motivated to continue with my system I hope to install and mix with the WVI system.

Helz_McFugly
10-24-2009, 12:30 AM
I took the hose clamp off and came up with a better idea. I cut a cone funnel down to fit inside my intake hose tight and perfect. the hole and the small end of the cone is only 1.75" and I get alot of vacuum where I port in now and no loss of power at all. I tested it again today in a different way. I put a hose in a cup of water to see how far it would suck it up. in a 3/8 hose it pulled it up about 5 inches at 3000 rpms, about 1/2" a idle so I think this is going to work much better and looks alot better then a hose clamp crunched down on my intake hose. Its inside so you dont even see it.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1383&stc=1&d=1256358483

spicerman
10-24-2009, 12:59 AM
GREAT work Helz......Makes me PROUD!!!!:D

shiby
10-24-2009, 09:28 PM
here is a web site that has a product similar to a injection system. http://www.aquatuneofalaska.com

Helz_McFugly
10-24-2009, 10:16 PM
here is a web site that has a product similar to a injection system. http://www.aquatuneofalaska.com
thats a cool little gadget. They have some coll stuff on that site. the only thing missing are prices. And I bet i know why. :rolleyes:

Stevo
10-25-2009, 01:05 AM
I took the hose clamp off and came up with a better idea. I cut a cone funnel down to fit inside my intake hose tight and perfect. the hole and the small end of the cone is only 1.75" and I get alot of vacuum where I port in now and no loss of power at all. I tested it again today in a different way. I put a hose in a cup of water to see how far it would suck it up. in a 3/8 hose it pulled it up about 5 inches at 3000 rpms, about 1/2" a idle so I think this is going to work much better and looks alot better then a hose clamp crunched down on my intake hose. Its inside so you dont even see it.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1383&stc=1&d=1256358483

Yep, that's my exact idea. I will start a new topic with my cell now. Let's record and compare results.

Helz_McFugly
10-25-2009, 03:45 AM
ok its installed. I made it out of 2" PVC and some clear tube so I could see it working but I ended up having to put it in a spot where you cant see it at all. Its tall as hell, maybe 15 inches tall, it pulls those bubbles up really high and I only have like 4 inches of water in it. it only bubbles when Im excellerating, not at idle and not while at cruising highway speeds, unless I give it gas or get above 2500 RPMS, but it works. So we'll see. I didnt even take a picture or vid. thats not like me. well its also 3:30am. Im sure ill take it out tomorrow and do some more tweeking to it.

spicerman
10-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Helz.... Maybe I'm not understanding??
why would this work for you? Most all the running at highway speeds is at 1500-2200 rpm wouldn't your WVI be sitting still.... inputting no water vapor. Do you normally run at 2500+ rpm??

I took a 20 oz 7up bottle, [It was just the right diameter of the MAF sensor outlet] and I cut it off at the shoulder just as it begins to taper to the top. I then cut off the spout so the small opening was 1.75" and put it in my wife's car. 3.5 LTR V6 {She wont let me touch her baby:( She doesnt know} It has a trip computer and gives all the MPG info you need. I have averaged around 26-27 MPG. over the last 3 years. So I reset the computer and we'll see what the average is. I was getting 34 mpg on the flat ground this morning.
No HHO Just the coller/venture

Stevo
10-25-2009, 08:05 PM
Spicerman,

You should consider not just the engine RPM, but also the speed of the vehicle and the additional load on the engine from actually moving the vehicle. Not to mention drag and other factors that make will increase engine load. Heck, just putting the transmission into gear and accelerating drastically increases engine load. So with these facts taken into consideration, the engine is certainly taking in considerably more air at 2000 RPM on the highway than when it's just revving at 2000 RPM in park.

My setup doesn't start to pull air through till about 1,500 RPM, but my redline is 7000 RPM. <-- vtec. My last MPG rating in ****ty Dallas traffic (at least 50% in-town stop and go or bumper to bumper) was 36. Still excellent considering I would usually get 28 MPG. I vary from 25 - 35% fuel efficiency increase from my experience over the past month.

A good note to pass on to everyone is try to get the bubbles as small as possible in a very large amount for the best vaporization. I am still pondering what may work better than a hydrophilic sponge while not being too restrictive. Ideas are certainly welcome.

Helz_McFugly
10-25-2009, 10:15 PM
I rebuilt it today out of a smaller container. It bubbles very little at idle,almost nothing, just a few bubbles, when I hit the gas (1000 to 2200rpms) it bubbles very well, when I stomp on it (2200 to 4000) it really flairs up the bubbles to the top of the bottle. I had it to big. there was to much air inside the tube that was obsorbing all the negitive pressure. Now that I have it in a smaller bottle it works perfect. I even made a vid. here ya go.
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Stevo
10-25-2009, 11:17 PM
Helz,

Great job with your setup. Good God when you blipped the throttle the last time in that video the water flew all over the place. Are you using any sort of sponge at the bottom of the water reservoir. The system looks to be working perfectly except I am concerned that you may end up drawing too much water. I could be wrong, but the solution to that is pretty simple and just requires either adjusting the Venturi taper up a bit or you could restrict the WVI input line.

Either way, great job and hopefully you will start seeing some MPG gains.

Helz_McFugly
10-26-2009, 04:08 PM
yea ive got this very porous stuff in the bottom. I think it some type of dust filter for something, but it was around a 1" pipe and it slid off, so it has a hole down the center and its about 3"OD and an inch thick and 5 inches long. no clue what it is are where it came from. I found it in my garage and it works better then a sponge. I did buy a nice porous spounge but this works better because its made out of some type of plastic. next time i take it apart Ill film putting it back to gether.
as far as getting to much water, thats the reason I wanted to make it taller so it didnt pull in straight water, only fumes. So a rebuild is inevitable. I just have to find a place for it. my car has no space under the hood. but it works fine for now because I opened the venturi up a 1/4".

hhonewbie
10-26-2009, 05:25 PM
Helz,
Did you make and instal your own Venturi?

Helz_McFugly
10-26-2009, 06:16 PM
yes I did. what I did was take a cheap-o cone funnel and trimmed the outer part to fit snug a few inches before the throttle body, then I cut the small end to open up to 1 3/8". look at my diagram and you can see the funnel. it works great.

spicerman
10-26-2009, 10:58 PM
Helz...
Great work!!! My wife came to see what I was doing and watched your video. She said "His looks more professional".:o She has been looking at all my experimental plastic bottles for the last year. But she liked it! So I said "can I do your car?"......"NOOOO!!! :rolleyes:

How do you fill it? If you put both tubes off to the side of the lid you could easily take it off.
Idea: If you run a third tube into the container, and extend it down to where you want the water level to be.
Then run the other end of the tube into a "refill container" Have the refill container at the same level or lower (positionally) Low enough so it wont siphon.
When the water level in the WVI canister drops below the refill tube opening the vacuum will draw water in from the refill container.
When the water level gets high enough it will cover the end of the refill tube and refill will stop. (pressure balance???)
Think it will work ?????

Helz_McFugly
10-26-2009, 11:10 PM
Yea man, thats sounds like it might work. Ide need to see a diagram and I could tell you. I took my system out and rebuilt it a bit so its longer so its not sucking in water when the foam got so high. it works great at 2000 rpms which is what I run at hightway speeds (2000 to 2200) and it startes bubbling at about 1500 RPM now under load. I put it in park and rev the engine now to get a better feel of hows its acting under the hood when i cant see it. Here is a vid of it up where you can see it. Ide really like to see your refill idea, Ive been racking my brain trying to figure out how to have a gallon of water somewhere that would refill it automaticly. as of right now I jsut unhook the hose thats plugged into the low negitive ressure side and stick in in a glass of water/alcohol and let it fill about 5 inches up.

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slade420
10-27-2009, 12:39 AM
There is some interesting ideas within this thread. Its important to note about water/methanol injection that methonal is different fromm ethanol, (everclear). you probably already know this. another is the 150 psi pumps used to properly atomize the methanol. 50/50 is the best mix, the U.S. and Nazis both figured it out for fiter jets in WWII. The water cools the combustion chamber, allowing to make more power. for better MPG you need to lean the fuel. The best part is it can decrease nitrogen oxide emissions.

A very interesting thing i found was this ...

"Many military aircraft engines of the 1940s utilized a pressure carburetor, a type of fuel metering system similar to a throttle body injection system. In a water-injected engine, the pressure carburetor features a mechanical derichment valve which makes the system nearly automatic. When the pilot turns on the water injection pump, water pressure moves the derichment valve to restrict fuel flow to lean the mixture while at the same time mixing the water/methanol fluid in to the system. When the system runs out of fluid the derichment valve shuts and cuts off the water injection system, while enrichening the fuel mixture to provide a cooling quench to prevent sudden detonation." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

Helz_McFugly
10-27-2009, 07:00 AM
There is some interesting ideas within this thread. Its important to note about water/methanol injection that methonal is different fromm ethanol, (everclear). you probably already know this. another is the 150 psi pumps used to properly atomize the methanol. 50/50 is the best mix, the U.S. and Nazis both figured it out for fiter jets in WWII. The water cools the combustion chamber, allowing to make more power. for better MPG you need to lean the fuel. The best part is it can decrease nitrogen oxide emissions.

A very interesting thing i found was this ...

"Many military aircraft engines of the 1940s utilized a pressure carburetor, a type of fuel metering system similar to a throttle body injection system. In a water-injected engine, the pressure carburetor features a mechanical derichment valve which makes the system nearly automatic. When the pilot turns on the water injection pump, water pressure moves the derichment valve to restrict fuel flow to lean the mixture while at the same time mixing the water/methanol fluid in to the system. When the system runs out of fluid the derichment valve shuts and cuts off the water injection system, while enrichening the fuel mixture to provide a cooling quench to prevent sudden detonation." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

great info. before they started doing the water injection, and also the reason they started it, was when they would fly close to the surface of the ocean they had a farther range on a tank of fuel, they thought it was due to the water vapor near the surface of the ocean, they were right :p

ramcustom
10-27-2009, 05:06 PM
here is a web site that has a product similar to a injection system. http://www.aquatuneofalaska.com

I just got a price of $1295 for this system.

Helz_McFugly
10-27-2009, 05:33 PM
$1295.00 WOW what a deal. :p I move the decimal and spent $12.95 on mine.

ramcustom
10-27-2009, 05:54 PM
yes but that includes installation in Alaska!

slade420
10-28-2009, 01:01 AM
the best water/methanol kits are probably from www.snowperformance.net
they have many different applications. Even a fuel saver model. Pretty much any make and model.
stage 3 is most expensive:
"Diesel Stage 3 MPG-MAX = $999.00
Typical fuel economy increases are 10%-15% or 1-3 MPG.
The MPG-MAX™ system has a secondary output that is used to activate a Power Mode. The more sophisticated microprocessor introduces a independently mapped second stage of injection. A larger nozzle is used to inject more fluid to make more power. The Power Mode activation point is adjustable for best performance. The net effect is smooth power in all engine load states with no combustion quench resulting in a true turn-on-and-forget system.
-Doesn’t leave a “signature” on vehicles computer so warranty isn’t jeopardized
The most advanced system on the market – true 2d mapping and 2 nozzles controlled independently for smooth power – always
Provides better fuel economy (1-3 MPG), more power (50-100 HP), and lower EGTs (150°-300° F)

"Stage 3 Gasoline MPG MAX® Boost Cooler® $729.00
The MPG MAX® Stage 3 Boost Cooler® is unmatched for increases in Fuel Economy AND Power in water-methanol injection systems. Key to this is accuracy and adjustability designed into the system. This Boost Cooler® can be used on any forced induction engine, or ANY engine with a traditional EFI system.
In the lighter load states, it can read and inject according to boost level and EFI signal simultaneously, and inject through a very small nozzle. This allows it to be extremely accurate when injecting smaller amounts to prevent quench.

Additionally, the MPG MAX® has the software and hardware capability to inject the correct amounts under the higher load states for serious increases in power, using a larger secondary nozzle.

Of course, both stages are also fully progressive and completely adjustable for the perfect delivery on your vehicle, no matter what other modifications are utilized.
veyry easy to set up and dial in - the software creates a delivery map based on boost and EFI signal from just a few easy to set start and full points you punch in. Fully standalone controller does not have to be wired into any diagnostic port or the ECU/ECM.

The LCD Screen displays boost pressure, fuel injector duty cycle, as well as water-methanol injection percent. Quick, easy, positive adjustments are made with 2 push buttons."

one that seems to be good, is www.coolingmist.com. Example: Deluxe 150 psi kit + Tank, Price = $249.95

You can even buy individual parts from them and build your own. They have neat lookin electronic gauges also.

Stevo
10-28-2009, 10:07 AM
Slade,

Yes I have looked into actual pump kits, but I have to say that, for the most part, it's pure overkill for naturally aspirated engines. Now consider a turbocharged vehicle and it's a whole different story. I doubt water vapor induction/injection will work on a turbo or supercharged vehicle. I would love to boost my engine with say ~18 psi, fuel tune and then spray water/methanol to get some crazy power and keep (or stay close to) my current MPG rating in the city. That's an a$$ load of money tho and I'm assuming most of us here aren't THAT close to making 6 figures at our day jobs yet... at least those of us supporting families of 4. :p

Helz_McFugly
10-28-2009, 10:40 AM
yea $1000 for a water injector is a little steap. I think we are all hear to save money and build things at low cost. you can that that stuff over to the HP forums. those guys spend thousands to get a little more HP.

slade420
10-28-2009, 02:32 PM
Im just trying to give some helpful info. I know its not cheap, but i didnt tell you to buy one. These i posted were mostly to give an idea of the technology involved. Note that stage 3 is an extreme example.

I know moist air helps your engine, but i think at a certain point without methanol and the proper psi you will start to quench the flame in your combustion chamber. I'm thinking your engine would run rich because of the o2 sensor reading more oxygen also. Then your back to where you started.

Now if you would excuse me, i must go count my millions :p

livehho
10-28-2009, 03:12 PM
has anybody tried using copper tubing for the WI install instead of nylon or polyethylene hose?

Helz_McFugly
10-28-2009, 04:10 PM
Im just trying to give some helpful info. I know its not cheap, but i didnt tell you to buy one. These i posted were mostly to give an idea of the technology involved. Note that stage 3 is an extreme example.

I know moist air helps your engine, but i think at a certain point without methanol and the proper psi you will start to quench the flame in your combustion chamber. I'm thinking your engine would run rich because of the o2 sensor reading more oxygen also. Then your back to where you started.

Now if you would excuse me, i must go count my millions :p
lol. i can picture you lighting your cigar with a $100.
and soaking your feet in crude oil :p
didnt mean to make you out to be the Billy Maze of water injectors.

Stevo
10-29-2009, 09:32 AM
Im just trying to give some helpful info. I know its not cheap, but i didnt tell you to buy one. These i posted were mostly to give an idea of the technology involved. Note that stage 3 is an extreme example.

I know moist air helps your engine, but i think at a certain point without methanol and the proper psi you will start to quench the flame in your combustion chamber. I'm thinking your engine would run rich because of the o2 sensor reading more oxygen also. Then your back to where you started.

Now if you would excuse me, i must go count my millions :p

Nah, don't get me wrong - your info in greatly appreciated. It would be very cool if someone could find some sort of micro-fine spray nozzle that would work well with a low power water pump for NA engines. This would quite possibly apply more water across the power band and actually allow some of use to lean out our fuel mixtures. Sorry if my last comment seemed hyper-critical. We are glad you are here. :)

livehho
10-29-2009, 10:23 AM
Nah, don't get me wrong - your info in greatly appreciated. It would be very cool if someone could find some sort of micro-fine spray nozzle that would work well with a low power water pump for NA engines. This would quite possibly apply more water across the power band and actually allow some of use to lean out our fuel mixtures. Sorry if my last comment seemed hyper-critical. We are glad you are here. :)

here u go http://www.bete.com/products/mw.html

flow rate 0.009 gpm

Helz_McFugly
10-29-2009, 11:51 AM
great find livehho. I guess you could hook one of those to a water pump that has a 100 PSI minimum and a 1000 psi max and have it adjust the current to the water pump by maybe a vacuum or something that tells it to increase as RPMS increase like a throttle sensor, or have a knob on the dash if you want to control it manually. Im not quite sure how much current a waterpump would need that would put out 500 to 1000 psi would use.

livehho
10-29-2009, 01:23 PM
great find livehho. I guess you could hook one of those to a water pump that has a 100 PSI minimum and a 1000 psi max and have it adjust the current to the water pump by maybe a vacuum or something that tells it to increase as RPMS increase

There are a lot of options here. I've realized an adjustable vacuum switch is the chepest and one of the most reliable options. No complicated elecronics and controllers. Field adjustable vacuum set point, from -3" H2O to -12 psi.

Closed throttle body butterfly = high vacuum
Open TB = low vacuum

so you could set it up so that your WI kicks in when you go above 1,200 RPM

some of the biggest WI sellers (snowperformance.net, etc..) use this setup for their most simple kits

vacuum switch: http://designflexswitches.com/switches/psf109s.php


Im not quite sure how much current a waterpump would need that would put out 500 to 1000 psi would use.

for 100-200psi from 5 to 10 Amps

slade420
10-29-2009, 06:30 PM
Kinda off-topic but what about an electric turbo. small amounts of boost mixed with moist air. heres a quick example
http://www.mimousa.com/info/blowerinfo.asp

"The supercharger produces 250 CFM but when combined with a cold air intake it produces about 2 PSI of boost."

ive seen cheaper ones but this one seems decent.

Helz_McFugly
11-01-2009, 06:10 PM
OK here is how I made the Venturi.
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slade420
11-01-2009, 07:30 PM
I gotta mention this, im pretty sure the reason for the 150 psi water pump is that @150psi the methanol atomizes correctly. double check before you go lookin for a pump. I dont know if it applies to just water.

maybe an injector would work, ive heard of old timers mixing water into their gastank, I wouldnt be too supprised if it worked. Then again it might be just an old wives tale....

hhonewbie
11-01-2009, 08:27 PM
OK here is how I made the Venturi.

Your venturi looks like it would restrict air intake? Have you seen how well your WVI & HHO are injecting at Venturi? How much meth/water is being injected? Hows your MPG gains goin, made any progress?

Helz_McFugly
11-01-2009, 09:41 PM
No Im still getting 0 to 60 in like 8 seconds. I did lose HP at first. I started at 1" the 1 1/4" then 1 3/8" still havgin a little lag then I opened it up to 1.5" after that you cant even tell its in there. back to old it old 0 to 60 in 8 or 9 seconds. it starts bubbling at 1500 RPMs when driving under load. I started at 19MPG from the factory. Im at 27MPG now. Im very pleased with my gains. My next mod is going ot be an AFC to control a/f ratio

hhonewbie
11-01-2009, 11:23 PM
Whats your WVI water/meth mix ratio Helz?

Stevo
11-02-2009, 09:12 AM
Im at 27MPG now. Im very pleased with my gains. My next mod is going ot be an AFC to control a/f ratio

Helz yeh! That's a 50% gain!

hhonewbie,

I don't think he's using Methanol, just a ~3% isopropyl mixture to aid the vaporization process.


I am wondering how a ~1-3% H202 mixture might work. I'm thinking about trying that next time. So far, I went from ~28/30 MPG to ~37/40 MPG. ~25-35% gain. I probably need to hook up my HHO gen now and see if any more gains are possible. Seems the generator would help at idle then hand off to the WVI.

livehho
11-02-2009, 01:36 PM
My design requires no opening of the bottles, ever, unless you need to work on something inside. Matter of fact, I need to refill them right now. :D

Hi Stevo. How many hours of driving does 1 liter of water last in this setup? thanks

livehho
11-02-2009, 01:40 PM
I am still pondering what may work better than a hydrophilic sponge while not being too restrictive. Ideas are certainly welcome.

http://www.hhoglabs.com/images/HHOGIIAtomizer2a.jpg

Stevo
11-02-2009, 03:51 PM
Hi Stevo. How many hours of driving does 1 liter of water last in this setup? thanks

Hmm.. I haven't really thought about it that way, but here goes.

2 bottles (32 oz ea.) - 20 oz (sump) = 44 oz.

Weekday Daily Mileage: 91
Weekend Daily Mileage: 10
Weekly Total = (91 * 5) + (10 * 2) = 475 miles
------------------------------
Weekday Daily Travel Time: 2.25 hours
Weekend Daily Travel Time .5 hours
Weekly Total = (2.25 * 5) + (.5 * 2) = 12.25 hours


It takes right at about 2 weeks (24.5 hours) of 50/50 highway/city driving to use the 44 oz. of water.

Approx 18 hours of driving

Correct me if I jacked some numbers up as it's not easy to do math with a screaming 1 year old in the background :S

livehho
11-02-2009, 04:55 PM
Hmm.. I haven't really thought about it that way, but here goes.

2 bottles (32 oz ea.) - 20 oz (sump) = 44 oz.

Weekday Daily Mileage: 91
Weekend Daily Mileage: 10
Weekly Total = (91 * 5) + (10 * 2) = 475 miles
------------------------------
Weekday Daily Travel Time: 2.25 hours
Weekend Daily Travel Time .5 hours
Weekly Total = (2.25 * 5) + (.5 * 2) = 12.25 hours


It takes right at about 2 weeks (24.5 hours) of 50/50 highway/city driving to use the 44 oz. of water.

Approx 18 hours of driving

Correct me if I jacked some numbers up as it's not easy to do math with a screaming 1 year old in the background :S

So it's aprox 25 hours of vehicle operation, and 18 hours of WVI operation?

That means WVI is ON about 81% of the time of vehicle operation. At how many RPM would you say WVI kicks IN? 1000? 1200?

So:

18h -> 44oz -> 1.3L = it takes 14h to consume 1 liter = 70ml/h = 1.1ml/min

The smallest nozzle currently available in the WI kits for sale on the Internet has a flow rate of 32ml/min

your setup: 1.1ml/min --> 14 hours to consume 1 liter
nozzle setup: 32ml/min --> 40 min to consume 1 liter

and you went from 30 to 40mpg? that just proves the ICE doesn't need a lot of water in order to burn fuel more efficiently, but just a tiny bit. that's very encouraging

Stevo
11-02-2009, 09:03 PM
livehho,

I'll accept those numbers. Considering the nature of HHO and how it takes more energy than you receive from burning it, doing a WVI setup is great for 1500 + RPM range that my system works in. No energy needed from the alternator which is good. Trust me, plenty of ppl have asked me if I am for real about the results. I just tell them to try it themselves and see. I'm happy with my hard work the results.

Water Injection (not WVI) and Bilge Blowers on a Naturally Aspirated Engine
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Also... on the topic of water pumps and nozzles and all that jazz. Not necessary and entirely too much water if you ask me. Why tame the flame? Plus the systems cost way too much. I mean how the hell do you expect to see considerable MPG gains if you are using extra energy from the alternator. It's elementary and really only useful for turbo/supercharged applications to prevent detonation thus water injection's history. I have the exact same thoughts on the "electric supercharger" a.k.a. marine bilge blowers. They use way too much electricity and return no more than a good front facing cold air intake can. These bilge blowers DO NOT COMPRESS AIR nor are they designed to do so. Even if it does (on a small engine) it's going to be in the range of 1 P.S.I which does exactly jack ****.

That's my .02 from experience.

Stevo
11-02-2009, 10:10 PM
So I've been calling it "Water Vapor Injection" and really we aren't injecting anything. We are INDUCTING it along with the normal airflow. So I am correcting myself (yes I do this sometimes) and changing the abbreviation that I have been referring to.

W.V.I. = Water Vapor Induction

Injection would mean that we are using some sort of pump to force water vapor into the intake. The unit I have installed on my Civic is passive, so induction fits perfectly.

Sorry for any confusion. I can open up another thread for this very discussion if necessary as I think the topic is well worth continuing.

livehho
11-03-2009, 12:49 PM
So I've been calling it "Water Vapor Injection" and really we aren't injecting anything. We are INDUCTING it along with the normal airflow. So I am correcting myself (yes I do this sometimes) and changing the abbreviation that I have been referring to.

W.V.I. = Water Vapor Induction

Injection would mean that we are using some sort of pump to force water vapor into the intake. The unit I have installed on my Civic is passive, so induction fits perfectly.

Sorry for any confusion. I can open up another thread for this very discussion if necessary as I think the topic is well worth continuing.

are you including HHO into your MPG calculations or just WVI? is that the only mod you have?

Stevo
11-03-2009, 07:45 PM
Yes that's the only mod so far. I'm still working on the HHO generator but not sure it will benefit my cause for much more than idle speed. It still might be good to try tho.

spicerman
11-03-2009, 09:24 PM
Hey guys...
Just a word of caution. I have been injecting water/steam into my throttle plate.
I was going to work last week and my truck flashed a check engine light and started shifting up and down. The code was for the TPS signal (throttle position sensor)
I checked volts and had 4.98 vdc.
I bought a new sensor ($30) When I pulled the bad sensor off, it was full of condensation droplets.:o
My throttle plate has a pivot rod that goes across the top of the butterfly. Any water that falls or collects on the front half of the butterfly has to run to the outside edges to drain off ( right above where the pivots go through the throttle body) The water seeps into the TPS.
I put in a longer tube to extend down to the very back edge of the butterfly so all the moisture has to be sucked in.

Stevo
11-03-2009, 10:12 PM
Hey guys...
Just a word of caution. I have been injecting water/steam into my throttle plate.
I was going to work last week and my truck flashed a check engine light and started shifting up and down. The code was for the TPS signal (throttle position sensor)
I checked volts and had 4.98 vdc.
I bought a new sensor ($30) When I pulled the bad sensor off, it was full of condensation droplets.:o
My throttle plate has a pivot rod that goes across the top of the butterfly. Any water that falls or collects on the front half of the butterfly has to run to the outside edges to drain off ( right above where the pivots go through the throttle body) The water seeps into the TPS.
I put in a longer tube to extend down to the very back edge of the butterfly so all the moisture has to be sucked in.

Thanks for mentioning that. I'll know what to expect in case I see similar issues. So far after 6 weeks I have seen zero issues on mine, but all engines are different. There is a very small hole inside of the throttle body at the top just before the throttle body plate on mine. That is where water vapor is inducted. I have avoided steam so far as the heat it tends to carry actually will negate some of the water vapor's effects.

Stevo
11-03-2009, 10:17 PM
Just to let everyone know, I am trying 3% hydrogen peroxide and distilled water in the first chamber this week to see what sort of difference the extra 02 will make.

Yesterday, as soon as I added it, I went for a short drive to see about any immediate butt dyno effects. :D

I must say that the butt dyno really liked it. Means nothing in real numbers, but I would certainly suggest trying it. The main thing I noticed was better lower end power. This could all be in my head too. $2 for 64oz here at Costco in Southlake.

JCOBERLEY
11-03-2009, 10:36 PM
Back in the late 70's we used water injecting on a 1 ton ford truck with a 460 gas engine we used a windshield washer box hooked up a vacuum line and used a needle valve to adjust the flow. we tried to run about 1 quart a hour when on the hiway. And the truck ran good and went from 7MPG to 12MPG. The truck had a carb and we put a t in the vacuum line going to the dist.

spicerman
11-03-2009, 10:38 PM
Steam is supposed to be the optimum to induce or inject because it is broken down to the smallest particle. Plus it brings in heat that aids in fuel vaporization and "cracks" more easily during combustion.... But that can also depend on how saturated it is. Dry steam is superheated or above its boiling point. Saturated steam would be just above its boiling point, ready to condense. Holding more moisture. My boiler on the manifold is at least 600 Deg. F. That would be very dry. But by the time it reaches the throttle body area its starting to condense and some water droplets are there. I think I need to insulate the steam line better and suck it in with vac.

Stevo
11-05-2009, 09:34 AM
Steam is supposed to be the optimum to induce or inject because it is broken down to the smallest particle. Plus it brings in heat that aids in fuel vaporization and "cracks" more easily during combustion.... But that can also depend on how saturated it is. Dry steam is superheated or above its boiling point. Saturated steam would be just above its boiling point, ready to condense. Holding more moisture. My boiler on the manifold is at least 600 Deg. F. That would be very dry. But by the time it reaches the throttle body area its starting to condense and some water droplets are there. I think I need to insulate the steam line better and suck it in with vac.

Yeh I've read something similar to that. I have always been told that an advantage of the vapor is it's capability to absorb heat and higher temp vapor absorbs less, but I have also been pondering an enhancement.

Maybe I will find a way to utilize the wasted heat from the radiator in order to aid vaporization thus producing *some* steam. This scares me too as I do not want too much water as hydro-lock becomes more and more imminent. I think simply beginning the enhancement by extending a hose from the coolant system to wrap around one of the reservoirs might work. The bottles can easily handle dishwasher temperatures (higher temp of 275 degrees). My cooling system ranges from 160-200 degrees once warm. This might work.

Other ideas?

Helz_McFugly
11-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Im about to run a tank of gas without HHO. that means all Ill have going is WVI and the Volo FS2. Ill report back after my next fillup.

Roland Jacques
11-06-2009, 07:01 AM
Steam is supposed to be the optimum to induce or inject because it is broken down to the smallest particle. Plus it brings in heat that aids in fuel vaporization and "cracks" more easily during combustion.... But that can also depend on how saturated it is. Dry steam is superheated or above its boiling point. Saturated steam would be just above its boiling point, ready to condense. Holding more moisture. My boiler on the manifold is at least 600 Deg. F. That would be very dry. But by the time it reaches the throttle body area its starting to condense and some water droplets are there. I think I need to insulate the steam line better and suck it in with vac.
What are you thinking of using to insulate your delivery lines with? What do you think about Exhaust Header Wrap?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/A-good-video-installation_118509.htm

Stevo
11-06-2009, 02:35 PM
Roland,

Silicone hose would work well most likely. You can get it from McMaster or most race shops. I would just need some sort of heating element that will fit around the bottle. Preferably made of aluminum or copper. Something like that. I don't know exactly what I'll use. I'll come up w/ something.

spicerman
11-07-2009, 12:41 AM
Stevo...Thanks for the link to the headerwrap. I seen that at our local Oriley's auto store. It got me thinkin :cool: But I used fiberglass and wrapped it with aluminum foil instead.:D

Hey.. remember that it takes less BTU's to boil water thats under vacuum. so you might be making steam before you realize it.

The water inj. manual I have says that 10% water to fuel is the jumping off point. When I played with the numbers you gave about the amount of water being inducted into your engine, I think it about 5%. If you heated the water and the air being sucked through it, you would increase the water being delivered. air is like a sponge, the hotter it is the more water it can hold. I think it would be easier to run your inlet air tubing along a heater hose or the engine coolant hose, then into the WVI canister and the air would then heat the water... What say you???

Even with the .75 to 1 oz/PMin. that I am injecting, my exhaust temps. don't change. But on the rainy days.... I see an increase. So ..... How much water does the rainy air hold at 100% saturation?? I think that would be the "right" amount. ;)

Stevo
11-07-2009, 08:52 AM
Stevo...Thanks for the link to the headerwrap. I seen that at our local Oriley's auto store. It got me thinkin :cool: But I used fiberglass and wrapped it with aluminum foil instead.:D

Hey.. remember that it takes less BTU's to boil water thats under vacuum. so you might be making steam before you realize it.

The water inj. manual I have says that 10% water to fuel is the jumping off point. When I played with the numbers you gave about the amount of water being inducted into your engine, I think it about 5%. If you heated the water and the air being sucked through it, you would increase the water being delivered. air is like a sponge, the hotter it is the more water it can hold. I think it would be easier to run your inlet air tubing along a heater hose or the engine coolant hose, then into the WVI canister and the air would then heat the water... What say you???

Even with the .75 to 1 oz/PMin. that I am injecting, my exhaust temps. don't change. But on the rainy days.... I see an increase. So ..... How much water does the rainy air hold at 100% saturation?? I think that would be the "right" amount. ;)

Yeh that might be the right amount. Honestly, I've been rather complacent as I still get 37 MPG on a bumper to bumper bad day in Dallas traffic. I haven't felt like making many changes so far except adding H202, which made no difference at all. I'm moving soon so I've been having to pack and all that stuff eats up my extra weekend time. :)

I would really like to create a better air distributor for the tanks. Maybe I will work on that.

Roland Jacques
11-07-2009, 11:14 AM
Roland,

Silicone hose would work well most likely. You can get it from McMaster or most race shops. I would just need some sort of heating element that will fit around the bottle. Preferably made of aluminum or copper. Something like that. I don't know exactly what I'll use. I'll come up w/ something.

I'm looking at a very high temp application, with the ability to keep the steam injecting temp at 600F at the manifold. (I'm experimenting with different temps) So i need to get it hot, and the ability to keep it hot, so Copper or SS tubing with exhaust wrap is what I'm thinking.

Roland Jacques
11-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Stevo...Thanks for the link to the headerwrap. I seen that at our local Oriley's auto store. It got me thinkin :cool: But I used fiberglass and wrapped it with aluminum foil instead.:D

Hey.. remember that it takes less BTU's to boil water thats under vacuum. so you might be making steam before you realize it.

The water inj. manual I have says that 10% water to fuel is the jumping off point. When I played with the numbers you gave about the amount of water being inducted into your engine, I think it about 5%. If you heated the water and the air being sucked through it, you would increase the water being delivered. air is like a sponge, the hotter it is the more water it can hold. I think it would be easier to run your inlet air tubing along a heater hose or the engine coolant hose, then into the WVI canister and the air would then heat the water... What say you???

Even with the .. that I am injecting, my exhaust temps. don't change. But on the rainy days.... I see an increase. So ..... How much water does the rainy air hold at 100% saturation?? I think that would be the "right" amount. ;)

What size engine is this on?

You would think 0.75 to 1 oz/P Min (1-2 litters per hour) would see exhaust temp going down.

With My 5.7 liter I want the ability to deliver 20 LPH at 600 degrees. That's the goal anyway, my thought is it easier reduce ether than increase ether.

Ive heard 50% to 100% of fuel ratio of water for some to really get great gains.

My plan is jacket water (coolant) to heat the water/steam heat exchanger. Have very hot air going into the heat exchanger, that will come from copper coiled around Catalytic converter. Then the output steam will go through tubing over the exhaust manifold, then to intake manifold. Still not sure how to regulate variable delivery to keep the water under 100% (by fuel ratio)

PS you can find that Exhaust Warp much cheaper on eBay especially if you can use the 2" stuff.

livehho
11-07-2009, 08:01 PM
There is a very small hole inside of the throttle body at the top just before the throttle body plate on mine. That is where water vapor is inducted.

did you tee into an existing vacuum line or you drilled the hole exclusively for the WVI line?

livehho
11-07-2009, 08:09 PM
Roland,

I would just need some sort of heating element that will fit around the bottle. Preferably made of aluminum or copper. Something like that. I don't know exactly what I'll use. I'll come up w/ something.

copper bends so easily

http://users.telenet.be/hagim/zonne_energie/images/Resize%20of%20DSC04968.JPG

livehho
11-07-2009, 08:38 PM
What size engine is this on?

You would think 0.75 to 1 oz/P Min (1-2 litters per hour) would see exhaust temp going down.

With My 5.7 liter I want the ability to deliver 20 LPH at 600 degrees. That's the goal anyway, my thought is it easier reduce ether than increase ether.

Ive heard 50% to 100% of fuel ratio of water for some to really get great gains.

My plan is jacket water (coolant) to heat the water/steam heat exchanger. Have very hot air going into the heat exchanger, that will come from copper coiled around Catalytic converter. Then the output steam will go through tubing over the exhaust manifold, then to intake manifold. Still not sure how to regulate variable delivery to keep the water under 100% (by fuel ratio)

PS you can find that Exhaust Warp much cheaper on eBay especially if you can use the 2" stuff.

for a 1-2 LPH setup you would have to install at least a 7 gallon reservoir ( http://fluids.flambeau.com/multipurpose_tanks/7.0_gallon.html) somewhere in the back of your truck and refill it two times a week or so...

for a 20 LPH setup... that's 5.2 gallons an hour.. you would need a much bigger reservoir.. maybe one of these? http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog_name=usplastic&category_name=34&product_id=19330&variant_id=8972

I guess it would be difficult to hydrolock a 5.7L engine ;)

it would be great to see a diagram of your idea

livehho
11-07-2009, 09:24 PM
No Im still getting 0 to 60 in like 8 seconds. I did lose HP at first. I started at 1" the 1 1/4" then 1 3/8" still havgin a little lag then I opened it up to 1.5" after that you cant even tell its in there. back to old it old 0 to 60 in 8 or 9 seconds. it starts bubbling at 1500 RPMs when driving under load. I started at 19MPG from the factory. Im at 27MPG now. Im very pleased with my gains. My next mod is going ot be an AFC to control a/f ratio

Stock: 14 mpg
Volo FS2: 19 mpg
HHO: 25 mpg
WVI: 27 mpg

so you got 2 mpg increase with WVI ?

Helz_McFugly
11-07-2009, 10:15 PM
yea. thats about it. my car doesnt have a venturi port on it so I had to make one which might be restricting air a bit. I think the only way to really get good gains with WVI on my car is with the use of a water pump and a water atomization nozzle. OR with steam. I like the idea of a coiled copper pipe wraped around the exhaust as thw water passes through it to vaporize it. Ive drawn up a few blueprints on steam injections ide like to try.
Im runnig a test right now. I have turned off the HHO for this tank of gas to see what mileage I get with only WVI.

spicerman
11-08-2009, 12:36 AM
Roland..
I have a 5.7 Chev 97 1500 4x4 pickup.
My steam system works like this: I have a pressure tank (now 5 psi) that was used for water inj. via a nozzle. Now it flows water to a metering valve, then goes down to the exhaust pipe (1/8 copper tube) Just before it starts to wrap around the exh. pipe it changes to 1/4 copper tube. It wraps 5 times around the area between the o2 sensor and the exh. manifold. It then goes up about 8" to my boiler that sits on top of the manifold. The boiler is a 2"x2'x6" 1/16 wall steel tubing. The 1/4 copper tubing comes in on the lower back side. Out of the top center I used 3/8 copper to run up to the throttle body. (I wanted to give room for any condensation to run back down inside the tube and avoid slugs of water from spurting onto the throttle plate) The last 4" I went back down to 1/4 Copper to "shoot the hoop" onto the throttle plate.
when its warmed up I can pull the tube out and watch a steady flow of steam.
My biggest frustration is that I don't run the truck enough to readily see what I'm accomplishing. :confused: But its been FUN!
The last long trip I took with it I got 22.8 MPG...:D

Roland Jacques
11-08-2009, 08:47 AM
for a 1-2 LPH setup you would have to install at least a 7 gallon reservoir ( http://fluids.flambeau.com/multipurpose_tanks/7.0_gallon.html) somewhere in the back of your truck and refill it two times a week or so...


(NOTE, 7 gallons would be about 14 hours of driving at 2LPH Hour my gas tank only goes 5 hours)


for a 20 LPH setup... that's 5.2 gallons an hour.. you would need a much bigger reservoir.. maybe one of these? http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog_name=usplastic&category_name=34&product_id=19330&variant_id=8972

I guess it would be difficult to hydrolock a 5.7L engine ;)

it would be great to see a diagram of your idea

I dont think Hydro lock is an issue for any ICE at these very low rates. theoretically a 2 liter engine at 10 : 1 compression ratio should be able to take about 0.2 liters of non compressibles per revolution for it to hydro lock. That would be 140 liters per minute or 8400 LPH.
As long as our water is completely vaporized/atomised and it shuts off when the engine shuts off i would not worry about Hydro lock. What I would like to know is how much we are raising our compression by adding vapor. I dont think its much but i would like to know.

Water tank capacity :rolleyes: not an issue with this vehicle, :p 200 gallon SW and 100 FW tanks on board (spicerman this 5.7 gets 11-12 MPG, 22 would be a miracle)
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj260/yourfishman/P1070868.jpg

livehho
11-08-2009, 01:43 PM
... The last long trip I took with it I got 22.8 MPG...:D

and what's the stock mpg? WVI is your only mod?

hhonewbie
11-08-2009, 01:51 PM
Helz,
You could upsize the intake hose dia. to get a bigger venturi and have you tried upping the iso mix to see if you get more MPG gains.
Is your iso/water feed adjustable and how much LPH?

spicerman
11-08-2009, 02:08 PM
Roland...
my pickup weights 5000 LBS I'm sure thats far less then your "Tanker Truck" Hauling all that water around has to be a killer!!!
I think your 100% water to fuel ratio is a little steep! The manual I have From George Wiseman @ Eagle-research.com says that 50% can be attained but that's with burning the heavy oils (like factory or ships use ...Industrial types where the oils are so heavy that at room temps they become like tar)

The old carburetor engines were easy to play with. You could do what you wanted and just adjust the mixture with a screw driver. But now with the ECU's and o2 sensors and computer logic its hard to tweek it! IE: You add water, the computer sees more o2 and adds more fuel. Thats were the EFIEs and the soft flashing of the computers comes in.
George Wiseman says.. start at 10% and stop adding when you stop seeing gains. He also states that the more HHO you use , the more water you can introduce. also 1 LPM of HHO can make a difference in MPG. Too much can bring you down as well. That's why every HHO install has to be tuned for the optimum MPG. But George doesnt say whats too much, except...."when you stop seeing gain. :D

I wish I had a DYNO I could answer a lot of questions fast!!;)

spicerman
11-08-2009, 02:22 PM
LIVEHHO...
NO, I had 1 LPM HHO , Volo FS-2 and 1 OZ PMin. water injection. at the time. But now I've changed the water into steam Inj. For my truck (5.7) .75 OZPM would be 10%

livehho
11-08-2009, 02:38 PM
I dont think Hydro lock is an issue for any ICE at these very low rates. theoretically a 2 liter engine at 10 : 1 compression ratio should be able to take about 0.2 liters of non compressibles per revolution for it to hydro lock. That would be 140 liters per minute or 8400 LPH.

I didn't know those numbers. They are comforting to say the least. So I guess the big problem is not the qty of water injected while engine is running but making sure no water gets into the engine while it is shut off. I don't see a problem with WVI or WI, but with 'steam' it's a different story.. the damn thing will still be hot and produce steam after the engine is shut off. that would take some tinkering of course. In one of you previous posts you mentioned that you got consistent results in restricting the air in the intake. Well I just did that in the morning and will see how it goes. I shrinked it from 3" to 1" (Helz's cone funnel idea) and took a ride to see if I noticed any lack of power. It ran great, I didn't feel no HP loss at all. My engine is 2.4L, 4 cyl, stock.

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/livehho/PIC_1446-1.jpg
Air restriction cone
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/livehho/PIC_1494.jpg
back side
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/livehho/PIC_1498.jpg

I've got my HHO setup ready to install but I'll wait and install the WVI first. Still don't know if I'll go with steam or cold water vapor. I got some 50' of 5/16 of copper tubing so I guess I'll do some testing and will see. Here is my HHO setup, I think I will add another bubbler when I install it in the car.

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/livehho/HHOsetup.jpg

Helz_McFugly
11-08-2009, 04:13 PM
Helz,
You could upsize the intake hose dia. to get a bigger venturi and have you tried upping the iso mix to see if you get more MPG gains.
Is your iso/water feed adjustable and how much LPH?
Im not sure about upsizing the intake hose would make the venturi larger. I could jsut scoot the cone back if I wanted it bigger.
yes I have messed with the iso/water ration. right now im running 1:3 methonol/water.

Im working on a system that uses a cold water vaporizer that i had in my attick. Im going to remove my airbox and put the device in ints place. It will pull about 12vdc/2amp. Im going to remove the a/c motor thats in it now and use a windshield wiper motor and some coggs to get it turning fast. Its that kind of cold water vaporizers that has a little 1/4 shaft that spinns in the water and spins the water up the small shaft and it cones out at the top and flinging the water to a mesh type grate that also spins with it thats about 3" in diameter that atomizes the water and also acts as a fan to eject the atomized water. Im going to alter it where it doesnt eject the water. it jsut creats a void of air that is full of atomized water in that space then add an air intake on one side that has a 3" hose with a K&N filter on it and on the other side the hose that goes to the throttle body. I can get a 3" intake hose at autozone. I can put a 24 ohm resister in my MAF sensors plug to bypass it so I wont have a MAF any longer. while im on that subject, you can go to radio shack and get a 24 or 25 ohm resister and put it in the MAF plug as a jumper if its a 2 wire plug like i have. I got 2MPG gain by doing that when I first got my car. let me check to see if it is 24 or 25 ohms before anyone goes and buys one. or you can buy both and give them a try. they are cheap enough. you shouldnt get a check engine light either way. Ill draw up a diagram of what I have planned.

These things work great too but they use alot of current. The one in this vid uses about 180 watts. this one is a 10 head unit. the 10 head unit ran off 36vdc/5amps and has an output of 3000 ml/hour. still pretty cool. Its a fountain fogger. The red light you see in the box are the led lights that come on these things. you can find them on ebay.
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redrat100
11-08-2009, 05:15 PM
what about using those ultrasonic mist devices?

Copied from my post on 10-09-09 from the "Maybe It's The Steam?" thread:
""This is how I got a 5.5% mpg increase (2.0 VW Jetta). I took a fogger like these http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html. It makes "cold" steam with ultrasonics and about 1.5 amp current draw. I built a tank using 2 inch plastic piping. It does require 24 vac. A cigarete lighter inverter for a laptop is adequate to power it. The fog is ducted to a fitting just before the throttle body, same place I had my HHO going. No efie, map tweeker or any other ecu mods. No c.e.l. lights either. Also, I added an air scoop in front of the radiator to pressurize the tank. This also behaved like a speed regulator. Idling at a stop light only engine vacuum was drawing in the fog. But in traffic airflow through the tank increased with speed. I also had a patent search done. They discovered that this fogger water vapor injection was patented in 1997, number 5671701. It describes exactly what some of us have been doing. US patents are good for 20 years. So, it won't be public domain intil 2017.""

Pictures are below.

IMHO, the direction Steve O, Helz and other are going is the right way to go. It is simpler and cheaper. The ultra sonic mister method is a bit pricier but much more maintenance intensive. After a few hundred miles the mister quits working. I guess they were not made to run under the hood of a car. :D After my last mister gives up I will pull out the system and build a simpler venturi bubbler unit.
__________________

redrat100
11-08-2009, 05:37 PM
I have a couple of aircraft instrument venturis left over from a project. Here is a source if anyone is interested in getting one: http://www.aircraftspruce.com. With a little tweeking the 2 inch one will fit inside the intake duct on my Jetta. It comes with a 1/8 female NPT port. Perfect for connecting a WVI bubbler to.

Roland Jacques
11-08-2009, 09:19 PM
Roland...
my pickup weights 5000 LBS I'm sure thats far less then your "Tanker Truck" Hauling all that water around has to be a killer!!!
I think your 100% water to fuel ratio is a little steep! The manual I have From George Wiseman @ Eagle-research.com says that 50% can be attained but that's with burning the heavy oils (like factory or ships use ...Industrial types where the oils are so heavy that at room temps they become like tar)

The old carburetor engines were easy to play with. You could do what you wanted and just adjust the mixture with a screw driver. But now with the ECU's and o2 sensors and computer logic its hard to tweek it! IE: You add water, the computer sees more o2 and adds more fuel. Thats were the EFIEs and the soft flashing of the computers comes in.
George Wiseman says.. start at 10% and stop adding when you stop seeing gains. He also states that the more HHO you use , the more water you can introduce. also 1 LPM of HHO can make a difference in MPG. Too much can bring you down as well. That's why every HHO install has to be tuned for the optimum MPG. But George doesnt say whats too much, except...."when you stop seeing gain. :D

I wish I had a DYNO I could answer a lot of questions fast!!;)

I did not even know that George played with WI, good to know.

My 9500 lb er get about the same MPG with 2400 lbs of water or not .

The ProScan Tool has a virtual Dyno that can be helpful. I just got this last week i wish i had not of waited so long to get it, great tool.
http://www.myscantool.com/details.html

I've read that Rally racer use to use 50% WI in the 1950s. but I believe the super heated steam angle is a bit different. Ive heard of ratios with super heated steam of 3 water 1 diesel, Equaling 75% reduction in fuel use, or 300% increase in MPG. Don't no if it true but it worth being able to test it.

Roland Jacques
11-10-2009, 05:32 AM
The ultra sonic mister method is a bit pricier but much more maintenance intensive. After a few hundred miles the mister quits working. I guess they were not made to run under the hood of a car. :D After my last mister gives up I will pull out the system and build a simpler venturi bubbler unit.
__________________

I used those USmisters for reptiles and they did not last long ether

edit; they ran 24/7 for a few weeks before they quit.

Stevo
11-10-2009, 12:51 PM
Unhooked my system this weekend. Filled up today and I'm back to getting the typical 28 MPG suck mileage.

spicerman
11-10-2009, 09:55 PM
Roland...
That scantool looks like a nice toy. Thanks for the link.
I spent $100 bucks last week at walmart and bought a code reader. The scantool looks a lot better. I was in a hurry to get my truck back on the road.

How does that virtual dyno work? Does it give you freeze frame, on the road data?? The code reader that I bought does that but only with a trouble code :(

what gears do you have in your truck?? My diff. has 3.7 My dad had a 3/4 ton chev with a 454 in it with 4.11 gears. He got 9 MPG running empty or pulling his 27 FT camper.....????

Roland Jacques
11-14-2009, 07:39 AM
Roland...
That scantool looks like a nice toy. Thanks for the link.
I spent $100 bucks last week at walmart and bought a code reader. The scantool looks a lot better. I was in a hurry to get my truck back on the road.

How does that virtual dyno work? Does it give you freeze frame, on the road data?? The code reader that I bought does that but only with a trouble code :(

what gears do you have in your truck?? My diff. has 3.7 My dad had a 3/4 ton chev with a 454 in it with 4.11 gears. He got 9 MPG running empty or pulling his 27 FT camper.....????

The dyno gives you a graph, torque & HP between certain RPM range of your choice. Find a nice flat test road and go. Do a test run or more get a baseline, then mod what ever, and run it again see if you gained or loss. i
It also has a similar quarter mile test. Its nice to be able to print stuff out for comparison. I'm not a computer guy so I have not figured out all it can do yet. It will give freeze frame of a few things, MAF, MAP, IAT,CT, O2 X's 4, fuel trim short and long:confused: X's 4, RPM, load,.. I have not used the freeze frame yet, I've just been monitoring those on the fly. I will try to figure that freeze frame function out soon.

I dont no what the gear Ratio is in that truck. Never gave it any thought, but now that you mention it, it could stand to be a little more power on the bottom end. My speedometer/odometer is off by 10% but the tire size is correct, now I'm wondering about the gear ratio.

Stevo
11-17-2009, 10:44 PM
Ok, I'm back with a version 2 of my WVI setup. I'll add pictures soon, but here's what I changed:


Removed canister hoses from sponges and routed to the bottom of canister.
Replaced small sponges with larger, taller sponges that sit halfway above and below water level.
Added another hose (for a total of 2) to the canister under intake arm.


Replacing the sponges with singular much larger sponges that sit above water has made a rather large improvement. The sponges naturally wick water and under vacuum they release water vapor. They also provide a dramatic surface area improvement.

My latest tests without WVI resulted in 29 and 29.3 MPG.
With WVI I am getting 39.3 MPG.

Also, I want to provide an image of my throttle body which shows the stock venturi port I am using (small top hole just before throttle plate). With the right threaded fitting, nearly anyone should be able to drill and tap a venturi port into their throttle body.

Roland Jacques
11-18-2009, 06:30 AM
Sounds great Stevo.

1. What is your rate of water consumption now?

2. Are you using a EFIE with that?
3. " "HHO ?
4 do you have a photo of your venturi set up?

Helz_McFugly
11-18-2009, 10:35 AM
I found a water vaporizer that Im going to try and rig up to my intake. it uses .5 amps at 13.8vdc/.6amps with a dc/ac converter. 8.28 watts isnt bad. its one of those kind that has the little funnel type thing that spinns in the water and flings it out as it spins. im thinking I can close off its output holes so the water just drains back down into itself and put a hose in there to suck out the atomived water and a hose to let air in. being that the hose will not be under water it wont take much vacuum at all to suck air through it so I can open up the funnel on my venruti a bit to tune it. Ill post a vid after I get it all done.

hhonewbie
11-18-2009, 01:11 PM
I found a water vaporizer that Im going to try and rig up to my intake. it uses .5 amps at 13.8vdc/.6amps with a dc/ac converter. 8.28 watts isnt bad. its one of those kind that has the little funnel type thing that spinns in the water and flings it out as it spins. im thinking I can close off its output holes so the water just drains back down into itself and put a hose in there to suck out the atomived water and a hose to let air in.

Hey Helz do you have a link to that device & what about the mist makers are they any good?

Roland Jacques
11-18-2009, 04:53 PM
I found a water vaporizer that Im going to try and rig up to my intake. it uses .5 amps at 13.8vdc/.6amps with a dc/ac converter. 8.28 watts isnt bad. its one of those kind that has the little funnel type thing that spinns in the water and flings it out as it spins. im thinking I can close off its output holes so the water just drains back down into itself and put a hose in there to suck out the atomived water and a hose to let air in. being that the hose will not be under water it wont take much vacuum at all to suck air through it so I can open up the funnel on my venruti a bit to tune it. Ill post a vid after I get it all done.

I was going to mention to you, that if you change your venturi a little you could improve your vacuum pressure a good bit. Assuming it is still the same as it was when i saw it last.

If you extend your vapor supply tube up into the main stream of air coming through your funnel. (It should be touching the funnel) Then cut the end of that extended tube at a 45% angle, the high point toward the incoming air. This should more than double your negative pressure.

I'll try to draw it and scan what I'm trying to say.

spicerman
11-21-2009, 12:02 AM
Here is some pics of my steam boiler and my Thermal-couple used as a pyrometer. It seems to be very constant.

The first one is the boiler : Top right side of engine

The 2nd is the thermalcouple installed.

The 3rd is the boiler, the blue is the insulation over the steam line. The boiler is the black 2x2x6" square sitting on top of manifold

Stevo
11-21-2009, 10:27 AM
Sounds great Stevo.

1. What is your rate of water consumption now?

2. Are you using a EFIE with that?
3. " "HHO ?
4 do you have a photo of your venturi set up?

1. I don't know. Production starts above 1200 RPM
2. Nope
3. Nope
4. It is attached in the last post above this one.

Roland Jacques
11-21-2009, 10:57 AM
Wow no EFIE... those are impressive results.

I see the Thottle Body photo, but i dont see any venturi. you just hooked up to the TB?

Stevo
11-22-2009, 09:49 AM
Wow no EFIE... those are impressive results.

I see the Thottle Body photo, but i dont see any venturi. you just hooked up to the TB?

The throttle body *is* the venturi. It is the variable choke point of the entire intake system. Air moves quickest through the throttle body thus the air pressure inside is lowest which makes any ports attached to that area draw air in. The vacuum port in my attachment is stock via Honda. I made no modifications as this port is used for the vapor canister purge line, but I assure you that most people with a throttle body can very easily create their own if given access to a drill press and proper drill taps. Any engine with a throttle body will be this way. The throttle body is almost always the venturi. That's one reason why engine makers sometimes run emissions hoses to the top of the throttle body.

In my setup, I still retain the vapor canister purge line so that gas vapors from the fuel tank get mixed with water vapor and ultimately ingested as they normally would. By using the throttle body as the point of WVI, you don't restrict the intake in any way and if you are lead-footed like me you will appreciate that. I love being able to drive however I like and still get great gas mileage.

hhonewbie
11-22-2009, 01:52 PM
The throttle body *is* the venturi. It is the variable choke point of the entire intake system. Air moves quickest through the throttle body thus the air pressure inside is lowest which makes any ports attached to that area draw air in.

But are you getting good vacuum under load through entire acceleration?

Stevo
11-22-2009, 03:19 PM
But are you getting good vacuum under load through entire acceleration?

Yes, better than you will get from any other vacuum source on your engine.

Owen_
11-22-2009, 05:33 PM
Think of how a carburetor works. In fact a carb form a junk yard could be added to your injection engine. (just fill it with water, not gas)

the biggest problem with carburetors works (for fuel or water), is that the draw, from vacuum, isn't even threw all engine speeds. So to get even fuel mixture (or proportional water flow) the something needs to change with engine speed, idealy that would be the orifice the fuel/water flows threw. There have been many complicated carbs made with ventureis that alter size and what not.

I'm thinking that the ideal water injection method would be more like a fuel injector. maybe even just using a fuel injector (or a few) in the intake, and using the signal from the fuel injectors to control it. This way your not excessively cooling your engine when it goes into DFCO.

Stevo
11-22-2009, 07:01 PM
Think of how a carburetor works. In fact a carb form a junk yard could be added to your injection engine. (just fill it with water, not gas)

the biggest problem with carburetors works (for fuel or water), is that the draw, from vacuum, isn't even threw all engine speeds. So to get even fuel mixture (or proportional water flow) the something needs to change with engine speed, idealy that would be the orifice the fuel/water flows threw. There have been many complicated carbs made with ventureis that alter size and what not.

I'm thinking that the ideal water injection method would be more like a fuel injector. maybe even just using a fuel injector (or a few) in the intake, and using the signal from the fuel injectors to control it. This way your not excessively cooling your engine when it goes into DFCO.

Sorry, I don't recognize the abbreviation DFCO. What is that? Fuel injectors can easily fail if they push water through for any extended period of time. That's why we have products like HEAT (to get the water out). If it's any consolation, I'm pretty sure WVI won't be "over-cooling" the engine at any point. If someone could build a system that *can* indeed provide the possibility of "over-cooling", I would love to see it.

If you have to add a device to the system that draws power from the alternator or battery in order to inject water, then what is the point other than anti-detonation and in that case what is wrong with your naturally aspirated engine that you have to now *inject* water. Water injection is what that would be. Seems that power driven systems might work best if the engine's fuel map has been altered to run stoich or lean first.

Adding a spring action butterfly valve to an over-sized vacuum port might work well. So might an additional port with a check valve that has a high cracking point.

livehho
11-22-2009, 08:00 PM
Is this dude injecting LIQUID water into the TB?

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Simple%20Water%20Injection%20System%20by%20Gerry%2 0Langwell.pdf

I thought we should deal with vapor, steam or sprayed water.. not liquid.

"Admitting liquid water into a vacuum line doesn't work. The resulting droplets are way too large and rough running will result. The exception to this is in a turbo vehicle with the water admitted before the inlet turbine. The high speed turbine blades chop the water into a fine mist. This is not recommended though because the turbine blades can be rapidly eroded."

spicerman
11-23-2009, 10:53 PM
The water is liquid right up to the point of induction into the throttle body port. But as it enters the "intense" air stream that is flowing past the butterfly it is instantly atomized into small droplets.
Try taking a soda pop bottle full of water and hold it out the car window at 60MPH. Slowly pour it out and you will see the principal in realtime.

Stevo
11-24-2009, 08:40 AM
Berryman's Total Combustion Chamber Cleaning System

http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=147

Part#2610 (at the bottom of the page)

The system consists of the cleaning solution, but what you really need are the parts. Essentially these parts consist of: two vacuum tubes to fit you vehicle, some cheap vacuum line (fish aquarium hose), one water aerator (for the bottom of the solution bottle), one liquid/air atomizer venturi and an adapter fitting that fits one of the two vacuum tube pieces to the aquarium hose and your engine's vacuum source.

What does it do? Well, it atomizes the cleaning solution so that it can be properly ingested by the engine. I have personally tried this on my vehicle with the cleaning solution before. Gets the carbon out, but I'd rather use water. :D

Cost of the product is ~$15, but the parts are what's hard to find individually. Even though they are just plastic and probably cost 4 cents to make, I'm doubting you will find the parts needed to make one of your own that will work as well as this one. I would replace the fish aquarium tubing with heavier duty tubing. This is my next experiment.

fastcompacts
12-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Hi all. I have been reading all the different threads on WVI and on steam injection and i have noticed that people are seeing some increase in MPG.(which is wicked cool) I just have a few questions. Are people only using distilled water (or water in general) to gain MPG's? The reason i ask is due to the fact that i live in New England and would like to have something that could give me MPG gains through out the year and i know a WVI system will not work in NE in the winter with just water(freezing issues big time) so... has anyone with a WVI system tried anything else such as a solution with alcohol in it? windshield fluid is something that comes to mind that wouldnt freeze so readily in winter. Is that something that would help out in with MPG's or is alcohol/water injection more for performance? Thanks in advance

Roland Jacques
12-03-2009, 08:08 PM
Is this dude injecting LIQUID water into the TB?

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Simple%20Water%20Injection%20System%20by%20Gerry%2 0Langwell.pdf

I thought we should deal with vapor, steam or sprayed water.. not liquid.

"Admitting liquid water into a vacuum line doesn't work. The resulting droplets are way too large and rough running will result. The exception to this is in a turbo vehicle with the water admitted before the inlet turbine. The high speed turbine blades chop the water into a fine mist. This is not recommended though because the turbine blades can be rapidly eroded."

If it was presure feed you would be right, but it works on a vaccuum. As long as that set up is operating strictly as negative pressure to deliver the water it should be atomised like a carburetor does.


I do think that design would atomize the water to a degree. But i think it could be better. It would seem to me that the highest velocity of air moving past that venturi (creating the most water delivery) would be at the lower throttle positions as the throttle opened more the focus of air movement would spread out and the vacuum on your water would go down when you would want it to go up.

Stevo
12-03-2009, 09:40 PM
Hi all. I have been reading all the different threads on WVI and on steam injection and i have noticed that people are seeing some increase in MPG.(which is wicked cool) I just have a few questions. Are people only using distilled water (or water in general) to gain MPG's? The reason i ask is due to the fact that i live in New England and would like to have something that could give me MPG gains through out the year and i know a WVI system will not work in NE in the winter with just water(freezing issues big time) so... has anyone with a WVI system tried anything else such as a solution with alcohol in it? windshield fluid is something that comes to mind that wouldnt freeze so readily in winter. Is that something that would help out in with MPG's or is alcohol/water injection more for performance? Thanks in advance

The colder it gets, the more alcohol you will need. For a really cold enviro, I would suggest a system similar to the one listed on Panacea. Essentially, you just want to control the water feed BUT also utilize a small venturi in that same line to aerate the water supply before the throttle body and further ensure proper atomization.

With my current setup, I am starting to realize that winter time temps can be an interesting hurdle to clear.

Stevo
12-03-2009, 09:49 PM
If it was presure feed you would be right, but it works on a vaccuum. As long as that set up is operating strictly as negative pressure to deliver the water it should be atomised like a carburetor does.


I do think that design would atomize the water to a degree. But i think it could be better. It would seem to me that the highest velocity of air moving past that venturi (creating the most water delivery) would be at the lower throttle positions as the throttle opened more the focus of air movement would spread out and the vacuum on your water would go down when you would want it to go up.

On my car the best water delivery occurs at > 3K RPM. Since normal highway cruising engine speed is 3K or higher for my car, I get the best gains on the highway along with more rapid water consumption.

Roland Jacques
12-04-2009, 07:42 AM
On my car the best water delivery occurs at > 3K RPM. Since normal highway cruising engine speed is 3K or higher for my car, I get the best gains on the highway along with more rapid water consumption.

Is your set up like thiis one?
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Sim...20Langwell.pdf

Stevo
12-04-2009, 09:19 PM
Is your set up like thiis one?
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Sim...20Langwell.pdf

Not yet it isn't. Once I get some extra free time, I plan on trying a setup similar to this one, but with more aeration.

fastcompacts
12-05-2009, 12:27 PM
I can't see to open up the pdf file. is it the same design as mentioned earlier in the thread with the other panacea link? Also i know that alcohol can be added to the water to prevent freezing but does this alter the waters ability to cool the engine. basically what i am asking is does putting alcohol in the water help or hurt MPG gains seen from WVI?

hydrobus
12-06-2009, 11:49 PM
Replaced small sponges with larger, taller sponges that sit halfway above and below water level.
Added another hose (for a total of 2) to the canister under intake arm.
[/LIST]

Replacing the sponges with singular much larger sponges that sit above water has made a rather large improvement. The sponges naturally wick water and under vacuum they release water vapor. They also provide a dramatic surface area improvement.



do the sponges float on the water ? and move down as the level decreases ?

Stevo
12-07-2009, 01:44 PM
I can't see to open up the pdf file. is it the same design as mentioned earlier in the thread with the other panacea link? Also i know that alcohol can be added to the water to prevent freezing but does this alter the waters ability to cool the engine. basically what i am asking is does putting alcohol in the water help or hurt MPG gains seen from WVI?

Too much alcohol will hurt your MPG absolutely.

fastcompacts
12-07-2009, 02:42 PM
Too much alcohol will hurt your MPG absolutely.

so im guessing that windshield washer fluid would be too high as methenol content is around 30-50% per a quick google search. maybe i should re-think my WVI fluid being used.... does anyone know of a way to keep my water from freezing other than alcohol use??? maybe a small heater of sorts? any one else out there have to worry about freezing temps...if so what are your ideas.... thanks in advance as always:)

Stevo
12-07-2009, 04:28 PM
so im guessing that windshield washer fluid would be too high as methenol content is around 30-50% per a quick google search. maybe i should re-think my WVI fluid being used.... does anyone know of a way to keep my water from freezing other than alcohol use??? maybe a small heater of sorts? any one else out there have to worry about freezing temps...if so what are your ideas.... thanks in advance as always:)

Sure there is. Take some copper coil from a refrigerator water line and coil it around the WVI unit. Next, hook that up to a coolant bypass hose or some other non-critical coolant hose. Then as your engine warms, so will the water and it won't matter as much how cold it is outside. If you can't find high heat plastic, then try using aluminum or stainless for the WVI canister.

fastcompacts
12-07-2009, 05:14 PM
Sure there is. Take some copper coil from a refrigerator water line and coil it around the WVI unit. Next, hook that up to a coolant bypass hose or some other non-critical coolant hose. Then as your engine warms, so will the water and it won't matter as much how cold it is outside. If you can't find high heat plastic, then try using aluminum or stainless for the WVI canister.

I was actually thinking abot something like that(the only thing is i am really concerned about putting a hole in a radiator hose and then trying to seal it up somehow. But yes something passive that could heat it up is the way to go i think. I was also thinking of possibly mounting it right behind the radiator somehow so it could be de-thawed that way, by the hot hat coming off the back of the radiator. but the only problem i have right now is i have a glass container right now that is holding my fluid(mason jar...i had them laying around so i figured go for it.) so i dont know how well that would hold up to the temp changes... and thanks again! :cool:

fastcompacts
12-08-2009, 04:12 PM
So steveo i took your idea of passive heat(off the cars cooling system) instead of wrapping my contier with tubing i simply mounted my container so that it was basically touching the upper radiator hose. as well as being right beind the radiator fan. so i hope the combination of both will help the thawing proccess.

fastcompacts
12-08-2009, 04:28 PM
hey sorry for all the post right in a row but i thought i would let you all know that i do have my system hooked up to the car via the crank case breather hose(i say that because the line does not have a PCV) but i am using a valve to control the vacuum because it is very powerful. i picked mine up at the local Lowes and it works MINT!!!:D very similar to the one in the link...couldnt find the exact one but showing you all so you get what im talking about.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=248944-1029-MLT-BVA&lpage=none

ashmir
12-10-2009, 09:29 AM
what is type of fluid in the bottle??

livehho
12-10-2009, 09:58 AM
what is type of fluid in the bottle??

plain tap water. no alcohol in it, although i plan to use a small amount when installed in the car.

today i'm making a video of a side-by-side test with two reservoirs. The first one is the one you see in the previous videos, the second one will be half the size. Wanna see if the smaller container will begin to make bubbles at lower RPMs, i'm shooting for 2,000 RPM. right now it starts to bubble at 2,3k 2.5k RPM.

eventually i plan to add steam injection as well. might try this setup: http://better-mileage.com/water4.html

hydrobus
12-10-2009, 11:08 AM
i found that you can make bubbles easier and with less vacuum if the bubbling device is close to the surface of the water, rather than sitting at the bottom of the jar

i.e. a flexible hose with the end attached to a float so that it rests just below the surface...requires less force to create bubbles than one that sits at the bottom of the fluid

JCOBERLEY
12-11-2009, 12:08 AM
I was thinking why could we use a fuel injector and electric fuel pump off a late model car. I would think the pump would have the correct pressure and using the vac switch to control it. Just a thought!:)

fastcompacts
12-11-2009, 08:40 AM
I was thinking why could we use a fuel injector and electric fuel pump off a late model car. I would think the pump would have the correct pressure and using the vac switch to control it. Just a thought!:)

Well JCOBERLEY i think that would be a feasible idea if you wanted to make that. I do believe if you hoooked it up properly it would have a high probablilty of working. There are a few problems that i can forsee. Oh i almost forgot, it does make a difference if the vehicle you are working on is turbo/supercharged or NA. Most systems that you see out there with an actual injector are made for turbo/supercharged vehicles, this is due to the fact that the water being injected does not have to be in a superfine mist because the turbines and heat of the turbo/supercharged system will passively do that for you. Also do you know what kind of amp draw a fuel pump would have on your system(I honestly have no idea)? The other problem would be that you would have to really watch how much water is being injected into the system. i think have read somewhere you can throw a check engine light if you inject too much water(can anyone confirm/deny this) At any rate that is a cool i dea and good luck if you move forward with it:)

fastcompacts
12-11-2009, 08:45 AM
plain tap water. no alcohol in it, although i plan to use a small amount when installed in the car.

today i'm making a video of a side-by-side test with two reservoirs. The first one is the one you see in the previous videos, the second one will be half the size. Wanna see if the smaller container will begin to make bubbles at lower RPMs, i'm shooting for 2,000 RPM. right now it starts to bubble at 2,3k 2.5k RPM.

eventually i plan to add steam injection as well. might try this setup: http://better-mileage.com/water4.html

If you are that close to you target RPM's than a small ram air intake hooked up to the bubbler may also solve your problem. I have seen other people have this idea of connecting the fitting that is hooked up to the airstone. Basically the run a hose from that connection to a funnel that is located behind the front grille of the vehicle so when traveling at highways speeds it will lessen the amount of vacuum needed to create bubbles. Hope this helps and good luck with the system;)

livehho
12-11-2009, 09:52 AM
this video proves that the smaller the container the better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmCmqzAb6BA

Roland Jacques
12-11-2009, 06:38 PM
this video confirms that the smaller the container the better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmCmqzAb6BA


Negative,

All that video test results proves is that the vacuum in each tube is NOT equal. ( IE, a leak in the taller one, OR the way there hooked up- more 90s-longer tubing - different diameter tubing, OR more restrictive air stone, OR...) Basic physics says they will pull equally.

livehho
12-11-2009, 06:46 PM
Negative,

All that video test results proves is that the vacuum in each tube is NOT equal. ( IE, a leak in the taller one, OR the way there hooked up- more 90s-longer tubing - different diameter tubing, OR more restrictive air stone, OR...) Basic physics says they will pull equally.

rephrase: this video proves that the smaller the container the better for vapor production at 'lower RPMs'

Stevo
12-11-2009, 06:50 PM
These devices will work best when equipped with a highly abrasive ceiling. A lot of bubbles are being created and that is awesome, but the abrasive ceiling should be there to violently burst those bubbles at or near their pinnacle rising point. I am thinking an array of needles would work just fine.

Roland Jacques
12-11-2009, 08:31 PM
rephrase: this video proves that the smaller the container the better for vapor production at 'lower RPMs'

Its Ok If we disagree. I still think there is a discrepancy with the test. The water should have responded the same way in both tubes if everything was equal. So that's why i think something was different between the Two, more air flow restriction or a leak, on the taller tube.

Roland Jacques
12-11-2009, 08:35 PM
These devices will work best when equipped with a highly abrasive ceiling. A lot of bubbles are being created and that is awesome, but the abrasive ceiling should be there to violently burst those bubbles at or near their pinnacle rising point. I am thinking an array of needles would work just fine.


Is your goal tiny droplets or water evaporation in the tube going to your intake?

Will tiny droplet even stay suspended inside the tube?

Stevo
12-11-2009, 09:19 PM
Is your goal tiny droplets or water evaporation in the tube going to your intake?

Will tiny droplet even stay suspended inside the tube?

That really depends on what size of droplet you are talking about doesn't it? I'm trying to evaporate the water AND get small water droplets. It'll work no doubt. Just trying to share my knowledge. You mind sharing your progress too? I mean from a 100 foot view it seems there have been a lot of critics, but not many experimenters so far and the ones who dare to experiment get the critique. I've got nothing to win, lose, buy or sell here so let's see what you have to present.

livehho
12-11-2009, 09:32 PM
Its Ok If we disagree. I still think there is a discrepancy with the test. The water should have responded the same way in both tubes if everything was equal. So that's why i think something was different between the Two, more air flow restriction or a leak, on the taller tube.

leak-free, restriction-free, all tested several times.. regarding the sintered bronze element at the bottom of the container, you can blow 145 psi through it no problem so no restriction there for sure (http://plantmaintenancedirect.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PMD&Product_Code=SN101-01&Category_Code=mufflers)

I will make a test/video with a different setup tomorrow

Roland Jacques
12-12-2009, 04:01 AM
That really depends on what size of droplet you are talking about doesn't it? I'm trying to evaporate the water AND get small water droplets. It'll work no doubt. Just trying to share my knowledge. You mind sharing your progress too? I mean from a 100 foot view it seems there have been a lot of critics, but not many experimenters so far and the ones who dare to experiment get the critique. I've got nothing to win, lose, buy or sell here so let's see what you have to present.


You are right i do far to much criticizing and not enough doing. The only reason i ask all the questions or challenge things is to learn or share what i already no. Honestly i think we would all benefit if we all questioned ideas a bit more. Like in school everybody is afraid to ask, only later to find out every one had the same question that went unanswered. I think in the long run we all learn more, save time, and even save money by challenging things a bit more.

You have had great success with your method, much better than i thought possible without a EFIE. So i have learned a lot from you, but i wouldn't have learned much without all the questions. Sorry for coming across rude.


My planes for WVI started out overly complicated, and I'm still trying to simplify it. It will take a bit more time to finish. Its was originally Involving 12 volt air pump modulating PWM to control the air flow, the PWM coincides the current with engine RPM. It also involed engine heat. The air would come from the intake manifold (after the Throttle body) and return to the intake manifold. I need to determine a few thing before i go forward. I could not figure out if this would change the manifold pressure? (i dont think it will.) Also not sure how Ignition timing responds to higher intake temp? i figure the temp would be 10 degrees higher. Anywayi did just receive the modulating PWM, now I think it will be used with my HHO cell instead. The main issue I have is have not figured out, is how to keep the water level up. If i am using 1.0- 0.5 Gallons Per Hour i would need a remote resivior. So that where im at.

As far as the evaporation goes, bubbles popping... I was thinking your sponge idea was good. The larger the surface area that is wet, and has a lot of fast moving air blowing on it, the quicker the saturation point of the air can be reached. I'm not sure how well that worked out but I was thinking maybe something courser than a sponge may be even better. Their is a plastic or aluminium gutter guard material at Home Depot that may do the same thing with a little less air flow restriction than sponge. anyway just sharing thoughts

livehho
12-12-2009, 06:31 PM
somebody could explain why is this happening?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39QLrsumid8

I assembled both containers today using the exact same parts.. so why this behavior?

Roland Jacques
12-12-2009, 07:29 PM
somebody could explain why is this happening?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39QLrsumid8

I assembled both containers today using the exact same parts.. so why this behavior?


If you rule out a leak, and plumbing, Then can only be that one has to have a little more restriction than the other. Id bet money on the bronze elements being the reason. Just swap them and you should see the reverse happen. (i think the restriction on items like that is always going to different to a small degree.)
But if one of the bronze elements is 1/4" higher than the other, that could also cause a similar reaction.

Truth is it really does not matter, they both will work fine when there is not a path of lesser resistance for the air to take.
Remember that it only takes a VERY SMALL differential in resistance for this to happen

hydrobus
12-12-2009, 10:42 PM
brass gizmo on the left is closer to the surface than one on the right.

the closer it gets to the surface, the less pressure is required to make the same bubbling action.

just for kicks..move it just below the surface of the water...and try again

Stevo
12-13-2009, 10:55 AM
livehho,

Try measuring all of the parts. You'll need to be sure that all measurements are identical or this will happen. It's hard to overcome and that's one main reason why I went back to one bottle vs. two.

livehho
12-13-2009, 12:25 PM
I had taken one of the bronze filters (the one in the container that produced less bubbles) from a bubbler i had used some weeks ago in a hho bench setup. I've always used distilled water in my bubblers but in this one I had used tap water. As you know when tap water sits for some days in a container the water becomes yellowish and if you let it sit longer you begin to see green stuff floating. Well I hadn't used this bubbler for some weeks but the water looked transparent and clean so I decided to take off the bronze thing and use it on one of the wvi containers.

Today I thoroughly inspected the thing and looked perfectly fine such as the other one installed in the other container, which is brand new. Then I used a magnifying glass.............................

the thing had a very thin film of some green stuff all over. microorganisms or who knows what??

anyway 10 more of these are on the way

ANOTHER THING.. decided to test the two wvi containers in driving conditions. Static testing does not throw accurate results as there is no load on the engine, also I believe bubble production has more to do with throttle position instead rpm. Also I wanted to be able to see the containers when driving and through the whole rpm range. SO... today I routed the hoses through a grommet in the passenger side floor, hocked up the containers and was able to see everything all the time while in the driving seat. Then took it for a ride. I got to tell you.. I was amazed at what I was watching. these things (both of them, although you could still notice less production in one of them) began bubbling like crazy at 1,500 RPM.. then at 2,000 RPM you got some brutal bubbling out of these things.. really furious demeanor. I'll see if I can manage to make a video without getting killed in the process.

Next test, hook up another container so it will make three of them.. who knows..

livehho
12-13-2009, 03:00 PM
here is the proof..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMrHVw62Rs

redrat100
12-13-2009, 04:05 PM
Just posting a failed experiment... Did some road testing yesterday with my small aircraft venturi. I designed and fabricated an adapter to fit a nozzle inside the venturi in the low pressure area. I then connected a water tank and hose to the fitting. My theory was that the venturi would draw enough vacuum to create a water mist. Didn't work out that way. I held the venturi/adapter out of the window at 65 mph with the tank at the same level. (Someone else drove). The best I got out of it was a spray of big dropplets, about 1/8 inch or so. Not the fine mist I was hoping for. Then I put a pump between the venturi and tank. Another road test hanging out of the window. The pump and venturi gave me a solid stream of water, almost like squirting water from a garden hose but a lot smaller.

This venturi would work well inside an intake duct to draw mist from a fogger or bubbler though. Just does not work well to atomize water on it's own.

fastcompacts
12-14-2009, 07:50 AM
livehho,

Where are you drawing your vacuum off of in your vehicle. Looks like you are getting a TON of bubbles even at low RPMs.:cool: Also as a question in general for anyone to answer. I was thinking that a larger engine would create more of a vacuum than a small engine. Is my thinking correct or would vacuum be equal in any engine?

Stevo
12-14-2009, 08:30 PM
livehho,

Where are you drawing your vacuum off of in your vehicle. Looks like you are getting a TON of bubbles even at low RPMs.:cool: Also as a question in general for anyone to answer. I was thinking that a larger engine would create more of a vacuum than a small engine. Is my thinking correct or would vacuum be equal in any engine?

Vacuum would be relative to the airflow volume measured in cubic feet per minute (CFM). In my case, I have found that the two 32oz bottles together are too much for my 1.6 L engine, but maybe on a large v6 or v8 the vacuum would be just right.

livehho
12-15-2009, 09:23 AM
livehho,

Where are you drawing your vacuum off of in your vehicle?

check out Stevo's diagram at the beginning of the thread

jm3000x
12-20-2009, 04:47 PM
I've tried the vacuum inducted H2O method, and didn't have a great deal of success with it, so I have taken another approach to H2O injection.
I am in the process of configuring a water injection setup utilizing a pump and atomizing nozzle in the intake. It is set up to turn on at a vacuum reading relative to about 3/4 throttle - I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on how much H2O to strive for (in terms of GPH or ML/min) as I don't want to over-do it. My pump puts out about 15 psi, but I can regulate the actual output with the nozzle I select. I've seen some of the performance oriented systems that turn on only at FULL throttle, and put out about 5 GPH worth of mist - I'm trying to achieve a more MPG oriented approach, incorporating a wider range of operation but don't want to drown my 2.2L 4cyl. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

Stevo
12-22-2009, 01:49 PM
I've tried the vacuum inducted H2O method, and didn't have a great deal of success with it, so I have taken another approach to H2O injection.
I am in the process of configuring a water injection setup utilizing a pump and atomizing nozzle in the intake. It is set up to turn on at a vacuum reading relative to about 3/4 throttle - I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on how much H2O to strive for (in terms of GPH or ML/min) as I don't want to over-do it. My pump puts out about 15 psi, but I can regulate the actual output with the nozzle I select. I've seen some of the performance oriented systems that turn on only at FULL throttle, and put out about 5 GPH worth of mist - I'm trying to achieve a more MPG oriented approach, incorporating a wider range of operation but don't want to drown my 2.2L 4cyl. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

Have you considered base ignition timing and octane ratings? Is the car OBDII or I? You need a fine mist and it probably will work best if it is variably distributed according to engine load. It's really hard to state how much water is too much until you have achieved some sort of gain on your vehicle.

livehho
12-22-2009, 02:19 PM
Stock: 19.5 mpg
Stevo WVI: 22.5 mpg

Roland Jacques
12-22-2009, 05:57 PM
I've tried the vacuum inducted H2O method, and didn't have a great deal of success with it, so I have taken another approach to H2O injection.
I am in the process of configuring a water injection setup utilizing a pump and atomizing nozzle in the intake. It is set up to turn on at a vacuum reading relative to about 3/4 throttle - I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on how much H2O to strive for (in terms of GPH or ML/min) as I don't want to over-do it. My pump puts out about 15 psi, but I can regulate the actual output with the nozzle I select. I've seen some of the performance oriented systems that turn on only at FULL throttle, and put out about 5 GPH worth of mist - I'm trying to achieve a more MPG oriented approach, incorporating a wider range of operation but don't want to drown my 2.2L 4cyl. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

Some commercial misters for big V8s put out up to 5 GPH.

I wonder how well will 15 PSI be able to atomize water? You might just be able to get a dribble or a sprinkle instead of mist. Snow brand WVI units put out 150 PSI to get a mist.

jm3000x
12-23-2009, 08:45 PM
Some commercial misters for big V8s put out up to 5 GPH.

I wonder how well will 15 PSI be able to atomize water? You might just be able to get a dribble or a sprinkle instead of mist. Snow brand WVI units put out 150 PSI to get a mist.

My mistake, I meant 150 psi - 15 wouldn't do the job...
Thanks for the info so far - will be testing over the holidays (hopefully) - I'm planning to start with around 3.5 GPH which will turn on at around 75% throttle position. Will post results with initial testing.
Thanks!!

spicerman
12-23-2009, 09:35 PM
Hey jm3ooox

what are you trying to achieve....... Power or economy???
You would never run down the hiway at 75% throttle, so are you racing?
The manual I have from Eagle-research.com says to start at 10% of fuel consumption and add untill you stop seeing gain. 350 Chev=.75 OZ/pm. I gained 2 mpg with only water Inj.

Jesse

fastcompacts
12-24-2009, 03:11 PM
Hi all. I have been following this thread for a while now. I know a lot of you have either been using a passive water induction system by using a vacuum or other negative pressure source. I have tried this but with no gains because I have to use such a high alcohol % in my water to prevent freezing. Also i see that some other out there are using a pressurized injection system with some good results. But my question is has anyone ever built a steam generator (not the ultrasonic foggers) and seen positive MPG results. I would be greatful if anyone could show me some schematics or point me in the right direction. THANKS in advance. :)

livehho
12-24-2009, 03:22 PM
Hi all. I have been following this thread for a while now. I know a lot of you have either been using a passive water induction system by using a vacuum or other negative pressure source. I have tried this but with no gains because I have to use such a high alcohol % in my water to prevent freezing. Also i see that some other out there are using a pressurized injection system with some good results. But my question is has anyone ever built a steam generator (not the ultrasonic foggers) and seen positive MPG results. I would be greatful if anyone could show me some schematics or point me in the right direction. THANKS in advance. :)

http://better-mileage.com/water4.html

don't forget to click 'next' at the bottom

hydrobus
12-25-2009, 12:37 PM
http://better-mileage.com/water4.html

don't forget to click 'next' at the bottom

that website claims steam better than water...but they topped out at 18% gain...i calculate Stevo's gains at over 30%....maybe those guys were doing straight water not vapor ?

Roland Jacques
12-25-2009, 04:28 PM
Steam is water vapor. The steam form just insures the water is atomized to its smallest possible size.

The higher the temperature the more water can be carried in a given volume of air. (up to 600f degrees) so steam has that advantage also. But to claim that steam works better...

Stevo
01-01-2010, 08:31 PM
that website claims steam better than water...but they topped out at 18% gain...i calculate Stevo's gains at over 30%....maybe those guys were doing straight water not vapor ?

Yeh, you really want the coldest water possible to be quite honest. Now that's really not all that feasible with so much heat under the hood and not many ways to keep the water cool. That is beside the fact that water vaporizes poorly when cold. Right now with temps at or below freezing in Texas, I have been getting about a 10-15% gain and I pretty much realize that it is because of not only water temps, but additional higher concentrations of methanol in the water as well. The colder it gets outside, the less gains I get. The warmer it gets, the better... to a degree of course. Soon I will present v2 of my device in hopes that it will present a new idea towards water vapor delivery here in this forum and maybe beyond. Who knows.

I recently moved and in doing so my time has been slim to none. The benefit? A much bigger garage thus more space to work on my projects. :)

Why do you want cooler/colder water? Simple. Greater heat absorption and greater expansion. Colder water is denser than hot/boiling water.

I use methanol to prevent freezing in cold weather. Otherwise, once it warms up here in Texas I will not be using *any* additives with v2. Only water straight from the tap. Updates and pics coming soon.

micmich
03-30-2010, 07:29 PM
I'm trying to set up a WVI and HHO in my pickup, got the HHO hooked up but not sure where to hook the WVI. Any suggestions??

redrat100
03-31-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm trying to set up a WVI and HHO in my pickup, got the HHO hooked up but not sure where to hook the WVI. Any suggestions??

I used the same fitting that my HHO went into. In the intake duct just before the throttle body.

Stevo
04-11-2010, 09:39 AM
Just about 2 weeks ago, my car started acting funny on startup and eventually started having some overheating issues that lead to me replacing my head gasket. Notice cylinder #2 where very small amounts of coolant/water was leaking into the cylinder.

[see attachment]

Goes to prove how well water clears up carbon.

whynotthinkwhynot
05-23-2010, 06:06 PM
WOW long time no interest in this thread. I'm new here, but this is really interesting. I'm going to give that Berryman kit a try on the wifey's Windstar as it's our worst mileage vehicle. I'm not sure if it will be as effective. The MAF is crammed in the engine compartment right behind the air cleaner, and basically on top of the TB. There will be just about 4 inches of difference between the feed and the TB inlet. There is already a hose feed there for the oil breather that I can use. I'm not sure if another inlet can be installed or not since it's a flexible rubber joint. Maybe I can install some sort of AZ coupling instead.

You were talking about ways to prevent droplets from splashing up near the vacuum and not being atomized- how about putting some SS screen inside the vaporization chamber above the sponge? That might help atomize some more.

I don't know why you think that 2x 32oz containers are too much for your engine- it seems to be working well! Vapor injection behind the throttle plate is what's preventing you from seeing water vapor damage to your TPS.

I used to use water through a small vacuum line (not continuous) to clean combustion chambers with the engine running. It works well, better than FI cleaners IMO. Just so long as you don't let it suck up too much, and you do have to work the throttle while doing it to keep the engine running. I also used water in oil (yeah sounds crazy, works good) to steam clean the inside of an engine before rebuilding it. This is not recommended for modern OHC engines without replaceable cam bearings though. You'd be surprised how long you can run an engine with a gallon of water in the oil and no coolant in the radiator, and even more surprised how the gaskets simply fell off. The only thing I had to clean was the oil pan.

whynotthinkwhynot
05-24-2010, 10:18 AM
Ooh aah vacuum controlled valve system using exhaust heated air intake, and according to this engineer you don't want to grab air from the air filter but bring in your own air from elsewhere on this system. This is a really complicated system, and even after reading it I have a few questions that weren't answered.

http://better-mileage.com/membervaporadx.html

Here's another one from NZ, rather old too as it discusses carbed vehicles only, but it describes using a container simply full of water/methanol mix as this was proved optimal in WW2 experiments. This is sucked into the intake via a vacuum hose. Control is provided mechanically using the vacuum advance distributor connection which was in front of the throttle plate (valve). There should be a vacuum connection to TB's in modern vehicles that is just in front of the plate as well whether the oil breather or PCV. Further mechanical control is provided by using a very small input for the water/methanol mix. The author describes using needles to penetrate the vacuum line which would only have been a 1/4 line anyway. Transfusion needles are fairly large, but still less than 1/4 of the 1/4" ID vacuum line used in this description.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/misc/mannject.html

I'm going to see what I can do with the oil breather input in the Windstar. It's about 3" from the TB, and I need to install a filter on it to reduce carbon anyway. Hopefully it won't reduce the vacuum so much that I build up more crankcase pressure than the PCV can handle.

lowride
05-29-2010, 07:14 AM
Here is my design. Hope you like it.

http://api.ning.com/files/ecYWhc9tSMlB8U4rkoRAp1ljbW82-bP-sRpjHlrbsA6YxgCSal59LAp6xjnOosxYYEI0FHA3nRa65meBmq-egMKpIs93pNQ0/Watervaporizercloseup.JPG

http://api.ning.com/files/z*wNZC7eNyWOKtzGOAbrBFs2oMUldjbTb2bvVIZ8jKjAJZNgDN QepSLEP2FxI5dtl-rg-bc6hvmyknrB4PUXjNZsIuoO4oeh/waterbubbler1.JPG

The water is sucked up by a wick and the then "dried" off the sock (without toe) inside the intake tube.

NB! The waterbottle MUST be BELOW the intake tube, and the sock MUST be placed AFTER the MAF/MAP sensor!!

I have saved about 10% of fuel in a VW Passat 1,9 Tdi 1995 and a Mercedes-Benz 300D 1979 :-)

On a Skoda Octavia 2003 1,9 Tdi , it didn't work.


Depending how thick the wick is, it uses from 2-3dl water / 100km.

makindue
07-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Just about 2 weeks ago, my car started acting funny on startup and eventually started having some overheating issues that lead to me replacing my head gasket. Notice cylinder #2 where very small amounts of coolant/water was leaking into the cylinder.

[see attachment]

Goes to prove how well water clears up carbon.

Nice water injection. I am thinking that the problem is that you have to check out its air cooler so that it will not overheat again. :D
________
Sweetlove1 cam (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/sweetlove1)

Roland Jacques
07-17-2010, 08:09 AM
I also used water in oil (yeah sounds crazy, works good) to steam clean the inside of an engine before rebuilding it. This is not recommended for modern OHC engines without replaceable cam bearings though. You'd be surprised how long you can run an engine with a gallon of water in the oil and no coolant in the radiator, and even more surprised how the gaskets simply fell off. The only thing I had to clean was the oil pan.

How did you ever come up with that idea! thats thinking out of the box all right. I hate scaping gaskets off. I dont think im brave enough to try this, Id fear some over heating warping heads... but it does sound interesting. I am guessing you are running it for 2 or 3 miniutes?

Roland Jacques
07-17-2010, 08:31 AM
Ooh aah vacuum controlled valve system using exhaust heated air intake, and according to this engineer you don't want to grab air from the air filter but bring in your own air from elsewhere on this system. This is a really complicated system, and even after reading it I have a few questions that weren't answered.

http://better-mileage.com/membervaporadx.html

.

I have looked at this one a few times and i still cant make out half of it.

I don't understand the solenoids, their functions, and what their attached too. Especially the fuel one?

I guess the air solenoid is to bring in air to lean out the mixture, but then whats the fuel solenoid next to it for? To add fuel? A mini carb? and then what is the vac solenoid for. :confused:

Stevo
09-28-2010, 11:32 AM
Sorry about the missing pics. I need to go back through here and try to re-link them.

Stevo
10-28-2010, 09:55 AM
Attached the original drawing I did.

Stevo
11-19-2010, 09:56 AM
I have ordered 100' of .010" Nickel 200/201 wire that I will be using in a much larger and taller bottle. The idea is to create a coil that produces some heat from 12v current essentially a water4gas style coil as we know those are massively inefficient. The unit will not use electrolyte, but rather tap water is the preferred source with a 5% isopropyl additive. Vacuum will still be pulled through this bottle the same way it was with the previous design except that now the water will be warmed by the 12v coil not to the point of boiling, but definitely above 120 F so that the water is more readily evaporated even in winter conditions. One byproduct will be oxyhydrogen in very minute amounts as well, so that is something to think about. Another really good test with this unit will be using approximately 35% methanol to water as MeOH can be separated at a much lower voltage even though I am using 12v. The extra waste heat created with this unit will most certainly not be wasted in the end, but rather serve an excellent purpose. I will post links to the underground in this thread where I have started a "Hybrid Water/Methanol Electrolysis" thread.

http://hhounderground.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=478