PDA

View Full Version : What is BEST? Solid or Perforated or Mesh



dennis13030
06-28-2008, 07:22 PM
I'm fishing for some recommedations.

Which type of plate(electrode) functions best and why?

Solid?

Perforated(holes through the solid)?

Mesh?

Ronjinsan
06-30-2008, 05:38 AM
Hi Dennis

I have tried all of the above and probably the best was (believe it or not!) some perforated plate from the inside drum of a washing machine!! The worst was from fine mesh...Oh it produces well but wears out very quickly, makes sense I suppose. The problem with using any "Junk" Stainless is getting it straight! Eventually you will come to the same conclusion as most dedicated tinkerers and go and buy some nicely cropped to size 316l plates and carefully sand them in the lengthwise direction until they are nice and smooth. You see basically any stainless of any shape will work, it depends on the amount of electrolyte you use and ultimately the amperage you draw which will determine your heat factor........and thats what counts! All the best! :D

dennis13030
06-30-2008, 10:49 AM
Thank you Ronjinsan for the input.

316L SS seems to be the preferred plate metal. You mentioned sanding it. What do you think about it being polished?

It also seems that control over the plate-to-plate voltage is the way to manage the heat. With the plate-to-plate voltage is between 1.5V and 2.5V, the heat is manageable.

I don't know if you are familiar with how a diode functions. When a diode is forward biased(positive voltage put on the anode and negative voltage put on the cathode) it will not conduct very well until the applied voltage is larger than its threshold. With an applied voltage larger than the threshold, it conducts very well and without much inline resistance you will get a lot of current(and heat). It seems to me that a 2 plate cell has a threshold(plate-to-plate voltage) between 1.5V and 2.5V.

What do you think?

Stratous
06-30-2008, 11:06 AM
I read someplace that polishing the plates was not good, but dont get me to lying. I havent tried it, so polish one up and see.

lsone85
06-30-2008, 08:27 PM
I believe the propose of sanding it to crate micro pecks in that metal and creating more surface area. And that should make the cell more efficient in production.

Stratous
06-30-2008, 10:17 PM
Its my personal opinion that the more plate surface area you have the better heat control and the more production you will have on a basic cell. Thats not to say that mesh wont out produce but mesh gets hot quickly and mesh wont last as long as plate. I have played with several different designs, my take is that plate is the best overall.

computerclinic
06-30-2008, 10:33 PM
Will coarse sanding work out well? I read some forum posts that recomend this due to surface area and bubble release.

Im also interested in knowing why the different alloys of 316, 316L, and 304 are debated to be the best for production and longevity. I have no clue on which one to choose and stick with. So far, everyone seems to preffer 316L...WHY?

Johnh
07-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Nickel seems to aid in hydrogen production and chromium may reduce it a bit. 316 is the most common SS with a fairly high nickel content and the lowest chrome. 384 would probably be better if this is fact but its hard to get.
Rough sanding or filing is reported to aid in bubble release but a before and after test I did didn't have a measurable effect on production with a 10 litre test I didnt want to store more than that and I havent got a flow meter working yet.
Ive got a little cell made with cupro-nickel plates that works OK but I havent had a chance to measure the output yet. and I need to make some small stainless plates the same size so I can do some comparisons. The stuff is too expenxive to put in my big cell unless it shows a lot of promise.
Regards
John

Arctos1
08-14-2008, 11:06 AM
Just getting started, and would like to try building a Smack Booster. Local Lowes was out of plate covers, so I was wondering if perforated 304 SS would work (I have a supply that I got at a surplus auction several years ago). The perforations are 1/8" dia and close together. I'm wondering if plates oriented horizontally instead of vertically would work better for bubble release, and how about longer and narrower plates in this horizontal orientation?

BoyntonStu
08-14-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm fishing for some recommedations.

Which type of plate(electrode) functions best and why?

Solid?

Perforated(holes through the solid)?

Mesh?

Fishing?

Nylon mono filament?

AKA Real estate without holes is best.

BTW I thought of this: A pair of Nylon or other highly perforated insulating hard material with 1/8" thickness of SS wool or shavings held within the sandwich.


Lots of surface area.

I hope that this helps.


BoyntonStu

sp1r0
08-14-2008, 03:56 PM
Chemistry of SS316L:

Iron (Fe) 65%
Carbon (C) 0.08% max
Chrome (Cr) 17%
Manganese (Mn) 2%
Molybdenum (Mo) 2.5%
Nickel (Ni) 12%
Phosphorus (P) 0.045%
Sulphur (S) 0.03% min
Silicon (Si) 1%

daveczrn
08-14-2008, 05:50 PM
Hi Dennis

I have tried all of the above and probably the best was (believe it or not!) some perforated plate from the inside drum of a washing machine!! The worst was from fine mesh...Oh it produces well but wears out very quickly, makes sense I suppose. The problem with using any "Junk" Stainless is getting it straight! Eventually you will come to the same conclusion as most dedicated tinkerers and go and buy some nicely cropped to size 316l plates and carefully sand them in the lengthwise direction until they are nice and smooth. You see basically any stainless of any shape will work, it depends on the amount of electrolyte you use and ultimately the amperage you draw which will determine your heat factor........and thats what counts! All the best! :D



What do you mean the fine mesh wears out? what happens to it? are you talking like a steel wool fine mesh or a screen material?

im just trying ti figure out what would be best..

I wonder if a round edge or a sharp edge makes more HHO? i have herd that HHO is produced on the edges which is why a cross pattern sanding would work the best. I know from anodizing aluminum when you glass bead or sandblast a metal the high spots have a problem conducting electricity, which is why i think that for HHO production it is not very benificial either.

c02cutter
08-14-2008, 06:40 PM
You do not want to use a polished stainless as the use a rouge to get the mirror finish. It gets impregnated into the metal.

sp1r0
08-14-2008, 06:56 PM
Some manufacturers offer a polished version of 316. I would recommend it. I don't buy all this extra surface area from sanding, sounds like a big waste of time. I do agree that it IS all about surface area though. Hopefully resonance too.

1973dodger
08-15-2008, 12:41 AM
Gentlemen,

I've been researching on the internet and doing my own backwoods testing on many type of cells, as I'm sure many of you have. I have concluded thus far, the more surface area the better, and have done my own test concerning the difference between plates with holes and plates without holes. I have found the perforated plates I tested used twice the amps, but produced two and a half times more hho/min. Since I am using a series cell, I'm not too concerned about the amps.

The question I have, is there an acid or base out there, which is capable of pitting the stainless steel plates enough to make it porous? From what research I have done on the net, there seems to be a trend in the electrolsis industry to use plates with nano technology or tiny pores or holes, and my guess is, this done chemically to etch the surface. Perhaps an acid which has a particular appetite for one of the elements in the SS. This is also another reason, I think the cells seem to do better the more they are used, because the electrolyte eventually etches the plates, thus creating more surface area. I would just like to speed up the process. Drilling ss is at best, very diffcult, as everyone knows. It appears ss has the ability to work harden as you drill it. I have so much money and time invested in the plates I currently have, I would like to find a way to use what I have. Drilling the plates just seems out of the question.

1973dodger

sp1r0
08-15-2008, 06:21 AM
I'm thinking maybe sulfuric acid from a battery or hydrochloric (muriatic) acid from a swimming pool supply store. I think you may only find concentration of 10%-12%.

BoyntonStu
08-15-2008, 08:03 AM
Gentlemen,

I've been researching on the internet and doing my own backwoods testing on many type of cells, as I'm sure many of you have. I have concluded thus far, the more surface area the better, and have done my own test concerning the difference between plates with holes and plates without holes. I have found the perforated plates I tested used twice the amps, but produced two and a half times more hho/min. Since I am using a series cell, I'm not too concerned about the amps.

The question I have, is there an acid or base out there, which is capable of pitting the stainless steel plates enough to make it porous? From what research I have done on the net, there seems to be a trend in the electrolsis industry to use plates with nano technology or tiny pores or holes, and my guess is, this done chemically to etch the surface. Perhaps an acid which has a particular appetite for one of the elements in the SS. This is also another reason, I think the cells seem to do better the more they are used, because the electrolyte eventually etches the plates, thus creating more surface area. I would just like to speed up the process. Drilling ss is at best, very diffcult, as everyone knows. It appears ss has the ability to work harden as you drill it. I have so much money and time invested in the plates I currently have, I would like to find a way to use what I have. Drilling the plates just seems out of the question.

1973dodger

Look up angel hair finish for SS.

See http://www.ssina.com/faq/index.html

Industry creates this surface with a rotating SS wire brush.

Question: Where can we buy a SS brush?

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

DaneDHorstead
08-15-2008, 05:45 PM
Will coarse sanding work out well? I read some forum posts that recomend this due to surface area and bubble release.

Im also interested in knowing why the different alloys of 316, 316L, and 304 are debated to be the best for production and longevity. I have no clue on which one to choose and stick with. So far, everyone seems to preffer 316L...WHY?
Sanding the plates is very importand, and they should be sanded in a minimum of two (cross sanded) directions.

I also sand mine in both diagonal directions, as well as holding the plates against the belt sander (using vice grips), and oscilation my wrist, in a circular patern.

The idea of sanding, is two fold, it helps to clean the metals of any minerals, or oils used in production, and it also cuts ridges in every direction, to break surface tension of the hydrogen bubbles.

Oxygen bubbles are repelled away from the plates, because both the plates, and the bubbles possess the same positive charge ( unlikes attract, and likes repell).

But the hydrogen bubbles are attracted to the negative poles, and want to stay there, as unlikes attract.

The repulsion of the oxygen bubbles, causes the water to seem like it is boiling, as the oxygen trys to escape it's entire bath (everything around it, carrys the positive charge, except the negative pole, but the hydrogen bubbles (also positively charged) reside there, in double the numbers, of the oxygen atoms.

Therefore, the entire soup mix, is magneticly a similar charge, which the oxygen must escape.

In the boiling action, and through course sanding of the plates, the hydrogen bubbles break the bond of the plates, and also float to the surface.


As for the metal........

Stainless steel is created at the foundry, when hugh porcelin ladels (with massive internal electro magnets) are dipped into the molten steel.

when the electro magnets are turned on, iron is pulled into the ladel, which is removed, takeing with it the iron, in liquid form.

This is done several times, and most of the iron is removed.

However as this is done the entire mass is cooling, and it becomes expensive to reheat it, to remove additional iron.

So, to get the best metals, in only one attempt at heating, they usually work very quickly!

Most of the time, almost all of the iron is removed, in one heating, as ecconomics rule the process. Consequently cou can get some better grade stainless, priced as lower grade metals, because of the speed they work.

However, surgical grade stainless, is also produced, which by law requires a second smelting process, to be certain all iron is removed. From this process, the most expensive stainless is produced, and used for surgical instruments, and even replacements for bone.

Consequenty, 316 grade, usuall cost about twice as much, as 304 grade.

The best way to judge your metal (other than what it actually cost), is to subject it to a large magnet.

The round magnets, found of old sub woofer speakers, are ideal for this!

If you freely susspend a plate, from a string, or use a small probe inside a hole of it, it is free to move with the slightest breeze.

Now apply the magnet, near its surface, and see if it effects the metal pendelum.

If the magnet has no effect, on the plates whatsoever, there is absolutely no iron in it.

Without iron, in even any small amount, it will not corrode!

It is a very simple trick, and it can save you some very serious money!

PS: These large magnets also are great to mount under a motorcycle frame, as the help trip traffic signals. Sometimes, the frame of the bike is not powerful enough to trip the signal by itself, but the magnets do the trick.

I always know exactly where my magnets are!

DaneDHorstead
08-15-2008, 06:08 PM
Chemistry of SS316L:

Iron (Fe) 65%
Carbon (C) 0.08% max
Chrome (Cr) 17%
Manganese (Mn) 2%
Molybdenum (Mo) 2.5%
Nickel (Ni) 12%
Phosphorus (P) 0.045%
Sulphur (S) 0.03% min
Silicon (Si) 1%
As I understand this chemical make up of 316 stainless steel you post, then a strong magnet should definitely react to a 65% Iron composition!



I use 304 grade stainless, and it has absolutely no reaction to a very powerful magnet!

I use the same magnet, and I can lift a four inch long section of rail road track, that I use as a small anvil, of sorts!

Although I must admit that I'm carefull, to keep my feet out of the way.

HYDROTEKPRO
08-15-2008, 06:40 PM
I disagree with some of the above recommended processes and here's why.

First, I have also read about the recommended quick, fine cross hatch sanding, out there on the net. But, there is both correct, and incorrect information out there about this technology. I found that out during the weeks of bench testing I did personally!:D

I've taken plain 316L plates with oil still on them from the drilling. Put 'em together, drop it in the electrolyte bath, and hook up the power. Did this in a transparent container to visually observe production, plus used a digital EXTECH clamp meter to measure the amps.

It really doesn't take but a couple of minutes for the electrolyte, plus the electricity, plus the water molecules exploding into HHO gas on the surfaces of the plates, to clean those plates pretty damn good. After a couple, maybe a few minutes, all of the plates are makin' plenty of gas.

I don't like the idea of sanding this material, which really ain't cheap. Maybe just a really fast and quick hit with fine grade if you must.

DaneDHorstead
08-15-2008, 07:33 PM
As I understand this chemical make up of 316 stainless steel you post, then a strong magnet should definitely react to a 65% Iron composition!



I use 304 grade stainless, and it has absolutely no reaction to a very powerful magnet!

I use the same magnet, and I can lift a four inch long section of rail road track, that I use as a small anvil, of sorts!

Although I must admit that I'm carefull, to keep my feet out of the way.
To prove my point, I have photos of the magnet picking up several heavy sections of rail road track, but it has no effect whatsoever, on the 304 grade stainless.

see: http://shuttermotor.tripod.com/id10.html

sp1r0
08-15-2008, 09:47 PM
I agree, and I think what we are really missing here is that when we think our plates are being "conditioned" it's actually the pH of the liquid changing, no matter if you start from straight water or water with electrolyte. The pH will change. A digital pH meter will be my next purchase.

DaneDHorstead
08-16-2008, 02:58 PM
I disagree with some of the above recommended processes and here's why.

First, I have also read about the recommended quick, fine cross hatch sanding, out there on the net. But, there is both correct, and incorrect information out there about this technology. I found that out during the weeks of bench testing I did personally!:D

I've taken plain 316L plates with oil still on them from the drilling. Put 'em together, drop it in the electrolyte bath, and hook up the power. Did this in a transparent container to visually observe production, plus used a digital EXTECH clamp meter to measure the amps.

It really doesn't take but a couple of minutes for the electrolyte, plus the electricity, plus the water molecules exploding into HHO gas on the surfaces of the plates, to clean those plates pretty damn good. After a couple, maybe a few minutes, all of the plates are makin' plenty of gas.

I don't like the idea of sanding this material, which really ain't cheap. Maybe just a really fast and quick hit with fine grade if you must.
The problem with that train of thought, is that the imputiries fron the plates (and there are many) still reside in the water afterwards, which can dampen the effects of catalyst.

Cross sanding, does (to some minute degree) increase surface area, but the actual difference is almost immeasurable.

The basic advantage to sanding is neither of the above, but instead, to break the perfectly flat surface area, so the microscopicly small hydrogens bubbles are easier to disslodge from the negative plates. They hold to these plates much like a suction cup, and need all the help possible to break them loose.

While the positively charged oxygen bubbles scurrey to exit the entire positively charged soup (likes repell), the two to one "electron ratio" of the now positive hydrogen atoms are attracted to the negative pole (unlikes attract).

It is only the boiling action of the much larger oxygen bubbles, that causes the hydrogen atoms to come away from the negative poles.


Cross sanding helps to break the surface bond of the hydrogen, causing them to be pulled away, and upwards, to the vapors above the hydro-soup.

Oxygen does not need the bond to be broken, as it is repulsive to the surface areas, and to the hydrogen (which is also now a positve charge).

But hydrogen, without the boiling action of the larger oxygen bubbles, would never leave the negative pole, or negative sides of the inducted plates (which are generally considered to be neutral) I say never, but refer that only as to a timeframe, when the current is turned on.

In truth, once power is input, no plate, is neutral. Induction causes each plate to be positive on one side, and negative on the other, just like an induction magnet (or in this case, a series of induction magnets)

While the middle plates are not connected to a power source, induction polarizes both sides of each plate, just as the experiment with wrapping a nail, with insullated wire, from a dry cell battery did, when you were in the fifth grade.

Sanding plays a very important role, in the production of hydrogen (but does not help the production of oxygen).

DaneDHorstead
08-16-2008, 05:05 PM
Following the link provided by: Boynton Stu

See http: //www.ssina.com/faq/index.html


I copy some of the information provided within that website, as it concerns the make up of stainless steel, and its relation to magnetic forces........

While an angel hair finish holds no particular interest to me, the report of stainless steel containing 65% iron, does!

I am the first to admit that I am not a metalurgist, but common sense says a magnet would react to any percentage of iron, unless it were so minute, it was almost non existant.

The following bears me out..........

_____________________________________

4. What is the difference between 304 and 316 stainless steel?

Answer: 304 contains 18% chromium and 8% nickel. 316 contains 16% chromium, 10% nickel and 2% molybdenum. The "moly" is added to help resist corrosion to chlorides (like sea water and de-icing salts) See "Stainless Steel for Coastal and Salt Corrosion Applications" for more information. (note that there is absolutely no mention of iron)



5. Is stainless steel magnetic?

Answer: There are several "types" of stainless steel. The 300 series (which contains nickel) is NOT magnetic. The 400 series (which just contains chromium and no nickel) ARE magnetic.

_____________________________

I should note that none of us, have any use for 400 grade types of stainless (relevant to our singular quest), so that part, is of little to no consequence.

DaneDHorstead
08-16-2008, 05:18 PM
Following the link provided by: Boynton Stu

See http: //www.ssina.com/faq/index.html


I copy some of the information provided within that website, as it concerns the make up of stainless steel, and its relation to magnetic forces........

While an angel hair finish holds no particular interest to me, the report of stainless steel containing 65% iron, does!

I am the first to admit that I am not a metalurgist, but common sense says a magnet would react to any percentage of iron, unless it were so minute, it was almost non existant.

The following bears me out..........

_____________________________________

4. What is the difference between 304 and 316 stainless steel?

Answer: 304 contains 18% chromium and 8% nickel. 316 contains 16% chromium, 10% nickel and 2% molybdenum. The "moly" is added to help resist corrosion to chlorides (like sea water and de-icing salts) See "Stainless Steel for Coastal and Salt Corrosion Applications" for more information. (note that there is absolutely no mention of iron)



5. Is stainless steel magnetic?

Answer: There are several "types" of stainless steel. The 300 series (which contains nickel) is NOT magnetic. The 400 series (which just contains chromium and no nickel) ARE magnetic.

_____________________________

I should note that none of us, have any use for 400 grade types of stainless (relevant to our singular quest), so that part, is of little to no consequence.
I should add that in order to have rust you must have iron!

That is not to say that other types of corrosion, can not exist such as is seen when salt water reacts to aluminum (only an example), but again, we are not working with aluminum either.

However, we should note that some people have a tendency to use copper wires, with a HHO generator (which is inviting a very dangerous situation, as copper will corrode, end eventually arc).

Note that building a HHO generator, should employ only 304 grade, or the more expensive 316 grade of stainless, in every internal "current carrying" device.

That does not include, spacers, and nylon bolts, which are intentionally used as nonconductive materials.

Thanks Stu, for the info.

DaneDHorstead
08-16-2008, 06:07 PM
Taken from Wikopedia - Stainless steel.........

[edit] Types of stainless steel

There are different types of stainless steels: when nickel is added, for instance, the austenite structure of iron is stabilized. This crystal structure makes such steels non-magnetic and less brittle at low temperatures. For greater hardness and strength, carbon is added. When subjected to adequate heat treatment, these steels are used as razor blades, cutlery, tools, etc.

Significant quantities of manganese have been used in many stainless steel compositions. Manganese preserves an austenitic structure in the steel as does nickel, but at a lower cost.

Stainless steels are also classified by their crystalline structure:

Austenitic, or 300 series, stainless steels comprise over 70% of total stainless steel production. They contain a maximum of 0.15% carbon, a minimum of 16% chromium and sufficient nickel and/or manganese to retain an austenitic structure at all temperatures from the cryogenic region to the melting point of the alloy. A typical composition of 18% chromium and 10% nickel, commonly known as 18/10 stainless, is often used in flatware. Similarly, 18/0 and 18/8 are also available. Superaustenitic stainless steels, such as alloy AL-6XN and 254SMO, exhibit great resistance to chloride pitting and crevice corrosion due to high molybdenum content (>6%) and nitrogen additions, and the higher nickel content ensures better resistance to stress-corrosion cracking vice the 300 series. The higher alloy content of superaustenitic steels makes them more expensive. Other steels can offer similar performance at lower cost and are preferred in certain applications.[citation needed]
The low carbon version of the Austenitic Stainless Steel, for example 316L or 304L, are used to avoid corrosion problem caused by welding. The "L" means that the carbon content of the Stainless Steel is below 0.03%, this will reduce the sensitization effect, precipitation of Chromium Carbides, due to the high temperature produced by welding operation.

____________________________

If I read that correctly, carbon can be added, for greater strength (?), but in 300 series grades of stainless a maximum 0.15% carbon is added!

In a decimal, that percentage is propperly shown as .0015 as compared to the whole.

That is just over one tenth of a single percent!

And if carbon is added (for strength), then it was not there, in the first place.

HYDROTEKPRO
08-17-2008, 02:53 PM
:confused:

All this collegiate textbook theory is very grand indeed.

But what really matters here?

Real results that you can see with your eyes, measure with a simple ammeter or flow-meter, and actually understand and put to use, that's what matters.

Furthermore, discoveries are still being made, we don't know everything yet. And sometimes these lofty theories are disproven by actual, real world tests.

Regarding impurities, we always clean the plates and all the internals with IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol) before final assmebly.

I do agree about using ONLY 316 L stainless on ALL current carrying internals, that's all we use for that, without exception.

I also agree about the middle plates each having a positive, and a negative side to them, and the above example given. Thus they are really middle plates, and only called "neutral plates" within OUR context, because a more accurate name wasn't given to them back when that discussion was young.

Hydrogen leaves a smooth, unsanded plate and rises in the electrolyzer. I've seen it dozens of times while doing tests. Does it leave a sanded plate more easily? If there IS a difference, is it worth it? How many grains of sand are there in a pound?

1973dodger
08-17-2008, 11:45 PM
:confused:

All this collegiate textbook theory is very grand indeed.

But what really matters here?

Real results that you can see with your eyes, measure with a simple ammeter or flow-meter, and actually understand and put to use, that's what matters.

Furthermore, discoveries are still being made, we don't know everything yet. And sometimes these lofty theories are disproven by actual, real world tests.

Regarding impurities, we always clean the plates and all the internals with IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol) before final assmebly.

I do agree about using ONLY 316 L stainless on ALL current carrying internals, that's all we use for that, without exception.

I also agree about the middle plates each having a positive, and a negative side to them, and the above example given. Thus they are really middle plates, and only called "neutral plates" within OUR context, because a more accurate name wasn't given to them back when that discussion was young.

Hydrogen leaves a smooth, unsanded plate and rises in the electrolyzer. I've seen it dozens of times while doing tests. Does it leave a sanded plate more easily? If there IS a difference, is it worth it? How many grains of sand are there in a pound?

Amen, to the part concerning real world experimentation

Concerning 316L, I must disagree somewhat, The fact of the matter is, SS is a very bad conductor, yet it is very durable. So it is a trade off. There are amny materials we could use and new technology is coming out everyday. I think more is mis-understood about electrolosis than what is understood. I do agree 316L is a good choice for anything which will remain under solution, but it causes resistence and thusly creates heat. That is the reason many of you are having trouble with your terminals getting hot, which are out of solution when your unit is turned on.(as well as loose connections)

Concerning sanding the plates, I have to agree with you, from what I can tell it is a waste of time for the difference. For those of you who want to try it, knock yourself out. I find it funny, so many people concerning the electrolosis process, seem to know with certainty what is going on inside their cells, which either are completely sealed or have such small spacing they could not possibly see if the sanding process has created more hho. I have checked the output of sanded-vs-unsanded, and it was not 1 second quicker in producing one liter. I do agree with the premise, more surface area is need for more hho, now "holes" in your electrodes will produce more hho.

I say this with all respect, but gentlemen, many in this forum try to impress with the amount of research they have done or education they have. Show me the numbers, the production, the mpg, the things which did'nt work, the things which did work, or even new ideas. (obviously, none have us have nailed this thing yet, so some new ideas would be welcome)