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tbhavsar
06-30-2008, 10:30 PM
Today I am glad to update you with improved results of my Phase – I experiment; after getting feedback from mentors; members and internet search I made following change that resulted in 700ml in 1 ½ minute. Here is what I changed;

1) Electrolyte (1 liter distilled water) and 1 flat tea spoon of NaOH + KOH. I could not get either KOH or NaOH at this time so I decided to use a strong drainer opener I had from Home Depot. It’s called Instant Power that has concentrated NaOH (lye) & KOH together.

2) Removed Brass rods/Bar and used 10 gauge wire with Ring terminal to

3) Changed plates to –nn+nn- (1/8 gap)

4) Aligned plates to have constant Gap of 1/8"

5) Output: 700 ml in 1 ½ minute compared to close to very slow production of 500ml per 6 minutes that I reported yesterday.

My next run is to connect multiple cells in series to get > 1 LPM output before I try in my Honda Accord.

Prev. Thred;
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=175

Ronjinsan
07-01-2008, 01:28 AM
Ahhhh nice but trust us on this.... +nn-nn+ is the best production config for you even though you are a coupla plates short!

tbhavsar
07-01-2008, 08:13 AM
Why are you suggesting to use plates in a +nn-nn+ order? I put my plates in a -nn+nn- order because hydrogen is attracted to negative plates and Water has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen.

rmptr
07-01-2008, 10:02 AM
EXCELLENT QUESTION

By now, this one question should be resolved.

What plate arrangement produces the most HHO in a one quart glass jar of electrolyte when driven by a standard automotive battery?

best

Stratous
07-01-2008, 12:53 PM
I have tested both several time, +nn-nn+ does produce more than the opposite. Ask yourself this question, when electrons flow, in which direction do they flow? Positive to negative or negative to positive? That is the answer as to why +nn-nn+ works better. Electrons flow from negative to positive which causes the n plates to take on a negative charge. If you put the Negative plates on the outside, then only one side of the plate is being used where as in the middle both sides are being used as well as the neutral plates. Other than that, the flow of the water is different as well. Thats the best way I can explain it.

tbhavsar
07-01-2008, 03:35 PM
I have tested both several time, +nn-nn+ does produce more than the opposite. Ask yourself this question, when electrons flow, in which direction do they flow? Positive to negative or negative to positive? That is the answer as to why +nn-nn+ works better. Electrons flow from negative to positive which causes the n plates to take on a negative charge. If you put the Negative plates on the outside, then only one side of the plate is being used where as in the middle both sides are being used as well as the neutral plates. Other than that, the flow of the water is different as well. Thats the best way I can explain it.

Thanks Stratous,

Your explanation make sense; I found the same on this doc; page 36 (of this doc: http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf
will try ‘+nn-nn+’ plates tonight and report the outcome.

I have another plate related question. I am planning to build six(or three depending on the plates required) Cells in series to consume 12v car battery power. Should I go with ‘+-+’ or ‘+-+-‘ or ‘+nn-nn+’ ?

I am asking this question since I got hold of 316 SS Sheet and having them cut tomorrow in the workshop. I am wondering how many Neutral, Positive and Negative plate I should have (based on recommended plate configuration). I have total 18 plates (2” X 6”approx) to drill holes. I would appreciate your help in this regard.

Stratous
07-01-2008, 07:25 PM
[QUOTE=tbhavsar;1749]Thanks Stratous,

Your explanation make sense; I found the same on this doc; page 36 (of this doc: http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf
will try ‘+nn-nn+’ plates tonight and report the outcome.

I have another plate related question. I am planning to build six(or three depending on the plates required) Cells in series to consume 12v car battery power. Should I go with ‘+-+’ or ‘+-+-‘ or ‘+nn-nn+’ ?

I am asking this question since I got hold of 316 SS Sheet and having them cut tomorrow in the workshop. I am wondering how many Neutral, Positive and Negative plate I should have (based on recommended plate configuration). I have total 18 plates (2” X 6”approx) to drill holes. I would appreciate your help in this regard.[/QUOT

Your plate setup would depend on whether or not you plan to run the 3 cells in series or parallel. If you were going to run in series you would have about 4.6 volts on each cell on a normal automotive system. In that case I would run +n-n+ possibly +nn-nn+. The first setup would yield about 3 volts accross each cell, the second would yield less than 2 volts which is almost bare minimum for breaking water. If you ran all three in parallel then I would go with +nnn-nnn+. this would yield about 5 to 6 volts accross each cell because of the neutral plates. In a parallel circuit the voltage remains the same throughout the entire circuit meaning the applied voltage to each cell will remain 12 volts. The Nuetral plates will help bring that down inside the cell sorta like a resistor. Amperage on the other hand is split between each cell. The sum of the currents through each path in the parallel circuit is equal to the total current that flows from the source. Each method has its positives and negatives. Personally I would build 4 and run a parallel/ series configuration.

tbhavsar
07-02-2008, 12:32 AM
[QUOTE=Stratous;1762
Your plate setup would depend on whether or not you plan to run the 3 cells in series or parallel. If you were going to run in series you would have about 4.6 volts on each cell on a normal automotive system. In that case I would run +n-n+ possibly +nn-nn+. The first setup would yield about 3 volts accross each cell, the second would yield less than 2 volts which is almost bare minimum for breaking water. If you ran all three in parallel then I would go with +nnn-nnn+. this would yield about 5 to 6 volts accross each cell because of the neutral plates. In a parallel circuit the voltage remains the same throughout the entire circuit meaning the applied voltage to each cell will remain 12 volts. The Nuetral plates will help bring that down inside the cell sorta like a resistor. Amperage on the other hand is split between each cell. The sum of the currents through each path in the parallel circuit is equal to the total current that flows from the source. Each method has its positives and negatives. Personally I would build 4 and run a parallel/ series configuration.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Stratous; If I understand this correctly, how series connection is different than parallel since the electrosis of water only needs ~2V per cell, so regard less of series or parallel, each cell is going to get ~2V anyway?

Stratous
07-02-2008, 12:38 AM
Thanks Stratous; If I understand this correctly, how series connection is different than parallel since the electrosis of water only needs ~2V per cell, so regard less of series or parallel, each cell is going to get ~2V anyway?

In a series the 12v will be split evenly between all cells. If you have 2 then each will get 6 volts. In a parallel each unit will get 12 volts. The total amperage is split in parallel.

Ronjinsan
07-02-2008, 02:37 AM
Yeah what he said. ;)......I rest my case! :D

tbhavsar
07-02-2008, 10:32 AM
In a series the 12v will be split evenly between all cells. If you have 2 then each will get 6 volts. In a parallel each unit will get 12 volts. The total amperage is split in parallel.

Thanks Stratous again. Have a nice long weekend!

greuvin
07-02-2008, 10:47 AM
So, in parallel, if running a 2 cell system, each cell would receive 12 volts and the current would greater?

In series (as mine is currently connected), each cell receives 6 volts and the current shared between both so current is lower?

Which is better for gas production? Higher voltage or higher current?
I'd guess current. So, wouldn't it be best to connect in parallel?

spob
07-02-2008, 12:04 PM
greuvin,

Just follow Ohm's Law, it will dictate voltage and amperage drops.

Parallel will keep the same voltage while splitting the amperage.
Series will keep the amperage and split the voltage.

tbhavsar
07-02-2008, 01:15 PM
greuvin,

Just follow Ohm's Law, it will dictate voltage and amperage drops.

Parallel will keep the same voltage while splitting the amperage.
Series will keep the amperage and split the voltage.

Which one generates heat? is that Volt or Amp or Both (must be a relation between them). I would like to control heat so that I do not have to worry about radiator cooling and keep refilling electrolyte that vaporizes due to heat.

mneste8718
07-02-2008, 01:33 PM
Voltage creates heat. From the documents I've read, you want 1.24 volts across each plate as anything above that will create heat. And so you want high amperage but this creates a problem, as you want to increase amperage, you have to put more electrolyte in the water mixture. When you do that, depending on your design, current might jump over the neutral plates (which are keeping the voltage down) to the plate that is supplied with current creating heat yet again. The best design is one that isolates the water to be just in between the plates, rather than around the plates where the current can jump.

Another design would be to have like 10 sets of 2 plates in series(each isolated from eachother) and I think that would keep the voltage at 1.4ish (based on a 14 volt system and depending on the internal resistance of the metal itself).

tbhavsar
07-03-2008, 11:01 AM
Voltage creates heat. From the documents I've read, you want 1.24 volts across each plate as anything above that will create heat. And so you want high amperage but this creates a problem, as you want to increase amperage, you have to put more electrolyte in the water mixture. When you do that, depending on your design, current might jump over the neutral plates (which are keeping the voltage down) to the plate that is supplied with current creating heat yet again. The best design is one that isolates the water to be just in between the plates, rather than around the plates where the current can jump.

Another design would be to have like 10 sets of 2 plates in series(each isolated from eachother) and I think that would keep the voltage at 1.4ish (based on a 14 volt system and depending on the internal resistance of the metal itself).

I am wondering if this method could be practicle; please check this doc; page 31 onwards; http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

Weblink: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/index2.html

ELECTR0N3RD
07-03-2008, 08:39 PM
Today I am glad to update you with improved results of my Phase – I experiment; after getting feedback from mentors; members and internet search I made following change that resulted in 700ml in 1 ½ minute. Here is what I changed;

1) Electrolyte (1 liter distilled water) and 1 flat tea spoon of NaOH + KOH. I could not get either KOH or NaOH at this time so I decided to use a strong drainer opener I had from Home Depot. It’s called Instant Power that has concentrated NaOH (lye) & KOH together.

2) Removed Brass rods/Bar and used 10 gauge wire with Ring terminal to

3) Changed plates to –nn+nn- (1/8 gap)

4) Aligned plates to have constant Gap of 1/8"

5) Output: 700 ml in 1 ½ minute compared to close to very slow production of 500ml per 6 minutes that I reported yesterday.

My next run is to connect multiple cells in series to get > 1 LPM output before I try in my Honda Accord.

Prev. Thred;
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=175

for your plate set up i would rather use +NNN-NNN+ that way your getting enough power in it, hell why not add another - to it.

tbhavsar
07-04-2008, 08:38 PM
I changed my plate setup to +nn-nn+ with two separate cells connected parallel; here are the results:

1) With one cell; gas out -> 500ml per 1 1/2 minutes; current usage 14 amp.

2) With two cell in parallel; 500ml in 56 Sec (close to minute); current usage amp 23.

I am surprised with above results since I was expecting to double my output; but it ONLY improved 50% and current jumped to 23amp. I wonder why.... I thought parrellal would keep same voltage across but divides the amp.... am I missing anything??? or may be it is concept of series connection.

tbhavsar
08-02-2008, 10:07 PM
[QUOTE=tbhavsar;1749]Thanks Stratous,

Your explanation make sense; I found the same on this doc; page 36 (of this doc: http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf
will try ‘+nn-nn+’ plates tonight and report the outcome.

I have another plate related question. I am planning to build six(or three depending on the plates required) Cells in series to consume 12v car battery power. Should I go with ‘+-+’ or ‘+-+-‘ or ‘+nn-nn+’ ?

I am asking this question since I got hold of 316 SS Sheet and having them cut tomorrow in the workshop. I am wondering how many Neutral, Positive and Negative plate I should have (based on recommended plate configuration). I have total 18 plates (2” X 6”approx) to drill holes. I would appreciate your help in this regard.[/QUOT

Your plate setup would depend on whether or not you plan to run the 3 cells in series or parallel. If you were going to run in series you would have about 4.6 volts on each cell on a normal automotive system. In that case I would run +n-n+ possibly +nn-nn+. The first setup would yield about 3 volts accross each cell, the second would yield less than 2 volts which is almost bare minimum for breaking water. If you ran all three in parallel then I would go with +nnn-nnn+. this would yield about 5 to 6 volts accross each cell because of the neutral plates. In a parallel circuit the voltage remains the same throughout the entire circuit meaning the applied voltage to each cell will remain 12 volts. The Nuetral plates will help bring that down inside the cell sorta like a resistor. Amperage on the other hand is split between each cell. The sum of the currents through each path in the parallel circuit is equal to the total current that flows from the source. Each method has its positives and negatives. Personally I would build 4 and run a parallel/ series configuration.

Stratous,

I am planning to build forth cell; I am curious how I would connect, based on your previous comment.

When you say ‘Personally I would build 4 and run a parallel/ series configuration’ how would you connect. Is this how (please check attached photo)? Please provide you input.