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View Full Version : Getting FED UP with KOH yet??



Hans H
12-22-2008, 05:57 PM
Howdy Folks: this hho experimenter has been running KOH for maybe a month now and I'm still getting the dang brown bloom that I had with NaOH. I can drain off to a degree, but I don't like it at all for show and tell...
and when time comes for cleaning my neutral plates, it will be a pain. I've used vinegar... anybody out there using citric acid, or maybe potassium citrate??

IronBear
12-22-2008, 06:19 PM
What grade SS are using and what are you using for water? If you are using pure distilled water and plain KOH, you should see no gunk after the intial plate conditioning. Gunks ( of various colors) are caused by impurities in the metals or the water itself.

I use 304SS Wall plates and KOH and I get no gunk whatsoever.

hg2
12-22-2008, 09:53 PM
Howdy Folks: this hho experimenter has been running KOH for maybe a month now and I'm still getting the dang brown bloom that I had with NaOH. I can drain off to a degree, but I don't like it at all for show and tell...
and when time comes for cleaning my neutral plates, it will be a pain. I've used vinegar... anybody out there using citric acid, or maybe potassium citrate??

muraitic acid works great for cleaning plates.

coffeeachiever
12-22-2008, 10:08 PM
Where are you getting your wall plates? Some people have had complaints with the Home Depot plates. They've said that they've had more success and cleaner electrolyte with the Lowes plates. I've never tried the Home Depot plates so I am not speaking from personal experience, it's just what I've read here.

geezer
12-23-2008, 03:00 AM
The acid works great BUT do not use straight out of the jug!!! maybe 20% with water watch it close 10 to 20 min. then flush well with water 2 or 4 times if not clean do it again.

Q-Hack!
12-23-2008, 06:57 AM
I read some place that you get the brown gunk any time you have too much voltage per plate gap. The guy was testing all sorts of electrolytes and was using a +-+-+- configuration (if I recall correctly). Wish I could remember where, may have been youtube, but I just don't remember.

spicerman
12-27-2008, 02:20 AM
Hi guys! I just signed on.......
I too am looking for an answer to the brown GOOO. I've built 7 different generators over the last year. I started with wet cells, then brick, then dry cells. I made one dry cell where I used the 304ss cover plates. (16 plates. They had 304 printed on the back side. ) My latest one is a 16 plate, 6 X 6 dry cell. I've used Baking soda, lye, KOH...... I even put in a cooling coil just before the water entered the generator. No matter what I run or how I run it, as soon as it worms up (85-90 Deg. F) the brown goop starts to slowly show up. I've used tap, condensate, distilled. Distilled takes longer but the brown snow eventually forms. I'm starting to think its a voltage thing. What do you say????

hydrotinkerer
12-27-2008, 02:57 PM
I have 4 dry cells 3 with 304ss and one with 302. None of them have ever had any bloom form in them. I run a 5n setup so the voltage per plate is lower. Maybe the 5 neutrals is the reason I haven't had a problem. I was surprised the 302 cell didn't form anything so far. The 302 cell has only been operating a month so we will see.

This is one of the best setups I have and it has been operating for 2 months now with no bloom what so ever.Here is a link to one of my setups.
http://pmgen.com/hhoscambusters/index.php?topic=52.0

Randohr
12-28-2008, 04:23 AM
I run low voltage and get little to no brown sludge. When I was running 12vdc across the cells, the sludge appeared very quickly. I use a palm sander with 80 grit on the plates, then while wearing rubber gloves, I completely clean the plates with isopropyle alcohol and then put the cell stack together. (+-+-+-+-) I then test fire them for about an hour to observe and make any needed changes. I like to use a clear container for testing so I can see what's going on. This seems to work. It has reduced having to flush the installed cells dramatically.

spicerman
12-28-2008, 05:48 AM
I've been running my cells at a 1/16th gap with a setup -nn+nn-nn+nn-nn+ at 12 VDC. When I went to more then 2 neutrals, the hho production dropped off dramaticly. I didnt try using more KOH to get more amps. (maybe I should)
I used rubber roof membrane to make my gaskets.
I wanted to try to supplement the natural gas in my furnace with hho and see how it would work. So I set up my 6X6 (16 plate) dry cell with 14 neutrals, and run it with 120VDC. With a teaspoon of KOH per gal. She was really hot!!... 20 Amps. My bubbler was dancing the jig!!! At about 15 sec. it popped the beraker. I then deluted it down to approx. 1/4 TS. per gal. I'm running at a steady 10 Amps. (Haven't measured the production yet) But the brown bloom still slowly shows up. I did pull the cell apart to have a look and I did find some pitting. but not bad. Some plates were brownish, some were rain bow looking. So I sanded them all down and washed them off with distilled vinegar and reassembled the cell. I still got the bloom! Do you think I should pull it apart and clean it again??

Stevo
12-28-2008, 05:48 PM
Howdy Folks: this hho experimenter has been running KOH for maybe a month now and I'm still getting the dang brown bloom that I had with NaOH. I can drain off to a degree, but I don't like it at all for show and tell...
and when time comes for cleaning my neutral plates, it will be a pain. I've used vinegar... anybody out there using citric acid, or maybe potassium citrate??

Yes, use citric acid. Just add it to the water, shake and let sit for about an hour or so. The brown gunk will completely disappear.

Stevo
12-28-2008, 05:52 PM
Howdy Folks: this hho experimenter has been running KOH for maybe a month now and I'm still getting the dang brown bloom that I had with NaOH. I can drain off to a degree, but I don't like it at all for show and tell...
and when time comes for cleaning my neutral plates, it will be a pain. I've used vinegar... anybody out there using citric acid, or maybe potassium citrate??

What stainless alloy are you using? 302, 304, 316, 316L

The lower the carbon content the better typically.

What is the voltage between plates? 2v, 2.5, 3, higher?

What is the average amperage of your cell?

Are you using tap or distilled water?

Did you wash and condition your plates first?

HHO-RAD
01-01-2009, 07:25 PM
yes, too high gap voltage = brown gunk. 120v/15 plate gaps = 8v. way too high! This is causing the brown gunk. 120v/48=2.5v, 47 neutrals would be a good starting config.

spicerman
01-03-2009, 04:59 AM
You're right !! I dropped the voltage to 24V. I changed the water and 1 TSP of KOH / Gal. I ran it about 30 minutes and no GOOO. I need to get 35 more 6x6 plates and rebuild my cell. If I use 50 plates I will have approx.2V/plate. Then add KOH until I reach the 9-10 Amp range. Thanks for the info. OH one more question... What does MMW mean when measuring HHO production?? I know its a ratio to Watts..... Thanks!

Hans H
01-14-2009, 08:18 PM
ya man, Hans H again... out of town for awhile. I have a 17 (perf)plate design with 1 neutral between ea pos and neg... straight 12v. thing is I don't know the grade of stainless, but it is totally non-magnetic. Another friend gave me the KOH so I don't know if thats the problem either, but I'm going back to distilled vinegar presently.
I generate a lot of gas with my unit at 10-14a, but I HATE that sludge... no way to promote the concept, with a nice clear container!! How the hay do I measure the voltage between plates?? Thanks to all you guys for the input. H

Hans H
01-21-2009, 07:31 PM
Distilled vinegar really sucks for bubble output. Scrap that!
There is citric acid available online, but the shipping cost is 3x the product
cost for Mrs. Wages brand canning type... Maybe coolaid or lemon juice is
a reliable substitute. Anybody??

hg2
01-22-2009, 10:11 AM
Distilled vinegar really sucks for bubble output. Scrap that!
There is citric acid available online, but the shipping cost is 3x the product
cost for Mrs. Wages brand canning type... Maybe coolaid or lemon juice is
a reliable substitute. Anybody??

Hans citric acid,koolaid and lemon juice won't work worth a flip in dry cell designs(I've tried them all with no luck).The voltage is there but no amp draw.

Only the wet cells seem to work with the acids because they require only weak solutions of e-lyte for production.

Painless
01-22-2009, 03:47 PM
Hans citric acid,koolaid and lemon juice won't work worth a flip in dry cell designs(I've tried them all with no luck).The voltage is there but no amp draw.

Only the wet cells seem to work with the acids because they require only weak solutions of e-lyte for production.

I agree, plus, anything that leaves any kind of residue (as most acids do) is a nightmare for dry cell users.

spicerman
01-25-2009, 04:14 AM
Painless.... I have a question for you. I built a dry cell like the one you made the video about. I used the wall plates (16) like you did. I flattened the edges to get more plate area. I drilled the top hole in the plates out to 1/4in. I used 1/16th" rubber roof membrane to cut my gaskets from. I stacked the plates using + 4n - 4n...etc. I used approx. 4 Tbsp./Gal. of KOH. The water "in" is a 1/4" and the gas out is a 3/8". My cell is running at 12VDC at 9-13 Amps. I've ran it for approx. 20 Hrs. and there is just a hint of brown in the e-lyte. My question is ...The best gas production I can get is 1Ltr./70 sec. What should I expect?? Is it in the ball park?? What MMW would that be???

Painless
01-25-2009, 03:43 PM
I would say that you're doing very well!

At 11 amps and 12 volts your 1 liter in 70 seconds makes for a 6.49 MMW!

A hint of brown in the electrolyte is normal, however, it may take a few days to properly condition and you may go through the leaching stage (brown particles coming out of the cell) if you increase KOH.

Keep your eye on the temp of the cell, a laser thermometer is cheap and gives a good guide when aimed at the top of the cell. Try and keep your cell temp under 140 F.

If you use this cell in a vehicle, you will need to add another N plate.

For your info, my 25 plate design pulled 2.33 LPM at 5.4 MMW.

Great job! I would love to see a video or even some pics of your cell.

Russ.

Stevo
01-25-2009, 11:29 PM
I will add this from experience:

Once you are ready to dispose of your electrolyte, adding a bit of citric acid to the elyte, stirring and allowing it to sit for about an hour will make that brown particulate disappear and you will be left with a clear solution.

Citric acid is known to have the capability of changing CrVI into CrIII according to scientific studies. Understand that this is all relative to the amount of CrVI and rust in the solution though.

I tried this on a 1 gallon jug of electrolyte that had quite a bit of red/brown particulate from electrolysis in the bottom. Added citric acid, closed and shook the container then allowed to sit for 30 minutes.

Before citric acid, the water was yellowish with plenty of particulate.

After, the water was crystal clear with zero particulate.

Hans H
02-07-2009, 06:42 PM
I'm using trisodium phosphate and making lots of bubbles... any input from anybody?? It's running clean after about 5 days.

Q-Hack!
02-07-2009, 08:00 PM
I'm using trisodium phosphate and making lots of bubbles... any input from anybody?? It's running clean after about 5 days.

Are you using Trisodium phosphate as an electrolyte or as a means to remove Cr(VI) from waste electrolyte?

Hans H
02-17-2009, 06:50 PM
Ya, I'm running it as an electrolyte... not as conductive as KOH, but more conductive than vinegar or citric acid. my new electrode set will get the magic 1/8" spacing, so the potent stuff may not be necessary. My cell is still clean after about 10 days, but I am only about 1/2 way to my 15A ideal when warm, and adding more tsp produces no more amp draw. The gas production on my ss cup array is very impressive on bench test.

joel.benavidez
03-09-2009, 02:43 AM
What stainless alloy are you using? 302, 304, 316, 316L

The lower the carbon content the better typically.

What is the voltage between plates? 2v, 2.5, 3, higher?

What is the average amperage of your cell?

Are you using tap or distilled water?

Did you wash and condition your plates first?

I just purchased the Vada Energy Max 1400 Kit with a single EFIE and the MX067 PWM. The 1400 cell has 4 circular cells with 7 plates each
(- n n + n n -)*4 for 28 plates. the grade of the plates are 316L. the bubbler/resevoir has a gallon capacity and comes with about 4 Tbspns of KOH. The PWM claims to feed either 30A @ 100Hz or 35A adjustable from 400Hz to 3KHz. I intend to use the cleanest Distilled water I can get, and since vada went pro on everything else, Im assuming the plates inside come pre cleaned and conditioned.

I intend to mount the Cell and PWM in an acrylic container and mount it centered in my back seat Flux Capacitor style. I will vent some of my ' 06 Civic's AC inside the case for cooling and a pc fan for venting.

With all that said. Any "No nonesense" advice like this for me? What frequencies would match the KOH concentration I intend to use best? etc. Is 316L considered low carbon concentrate for reduced sludge? ANything I havent thought of?

I'll be posting the unboxing of the PWM and Vada Cell kit within days at http://www.youtube.com/saintskyler Acrylic case construction and instalation comes next then active tests.

So again, With all that said. Any "No nonesense" advice like this for me? :D

Hans H
03-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Ya, your mentor at this site would be the guy... however I'll kept hangin in for more input on electrolytes... there's another mystery electrolyte on ebay now, that claims totally clean results! On pwms: don't get "star struck" by those claims!! Magic frequences aside, wait to graduate from basic. Meanwhile there are breakthrus going on in the braintrust, that we are all hoping to get on board with eventually. H

Hans H
04-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Where is everybody?! Been hearing about potassium carbonate (used as a buffering agent in wine making). The big boys are using it in their fuel cells... might be a good one. Potassium phosphate has also been refered to, and I thought that potassium citrate might be clean and effective. My take on trisodium phosphate after using it for several months now is that it will only stay clean at very weak concentrations.
Let's not be diddling till the prices bust up again!