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Stratous
07-01-2008, 10:40 PM
This is a cell I am building for a friend's Chevy 2500 HD. Its two 7 plate configured as +nn-nn+ connected in series.

Stratous
07-01-2008, 10:53 PM
This cell ROCKS!!!!!!!! I am 20 feet away from it and I can see the HHO coming off of it. Its been running for about 30 minutes and the water isnt even warm!!!!

Phantom240
07-01-2008, 10:58 PM
Very nice! Dimensions?

Stratous
07-01-2008, 11:05 PM
The dimensions are 11"L x7 3/4"w x 8"h, Its is now at 102°F pulling 8 amps after about 45 minutes.

dennis13030
07-01-2008, 11:30 PM
This is a cell I am building for a friend's Chevy 2500 HD. Its two 7 plate configured as +nn-nn+ ran in series.

Stratous, did you build the plexglass casing on this yourself??

Stratous
07-01-2008, 11:34 PM
Yes, I have done everything on this unit myself. Its actually not plexiglass, its polycarbonate plastic. Way better than plexiglass. Update, its now been 1 hour and its still at 8 amps and is now 107°F. I ran out of polycarbonate, so I dont have a lid yet to actually measure its output. So far this is looking like the best unit I have produced.

dennis13030
07-01-2008, 11:37 PM
What are the dimensions of the plates? How thick is the polycarbonate? What is the temperature limit on the polycarbonate?

Stratous
07-01-2008, 11:42 PM
The dimensions of the plates? Do you mean the dimension of each piece that I cut? The thickness is .375" and its melt point is 330°f. It can withstand a working temp of 270°f. The Dimensions of the box is 11"L x 7.75"W x 8"H. I would have to actually measure each piece again to give the exact measurement of each piece I cut to build the device.

dennis13030
07-01-2008, 11:44 PM
Thanks. Just the X&Y of 1 plate please.

Stratous
07-01-2008, 11:44 PM
LOL, the plates..... Ok, you mean the cell plates. They are as follows. The positive and negative plates are 3" x 7". The Nuetral plates are 3" x 6". They are .03" thick of 301SS 1/4 hard. 301SS is aircraft gade stainless

Phantom240
07-01-2008, 11:45 PM
What do you use to bond the polycarbonate?

Stratous
07-01-2008, 11:49 PM
I am using capillary bonding glue. I believe the active ingrediant is methylene chloride. Its a watery type glue that is basically sucked into the joints. Once that is dry I use a thick version of the bonding glue to seal all corners. It works very well and is supposed to bond pieces together just as strong as a solid piece would be.

EDIT: I just checked the temp again, its now 113°f. Its been 1hour and 20 minutes

Stratous
07-02-2008, 12:29 AM
This is photos from 1 1/2 hours into testing. So far this baby rocks!!!.

Stratous
07-02-2008, 12:43 AM
Ok, last post for the night. 2 hours and 8 minutes into test. The temp is 120°f, and its drawing 9.92 amps according to my little meter. I would imagine the amp draw is slightly less than the meter reads as the meter leads are pretty small.

Ronjinsan
07-02-2008, 03:40 AM
I love this Stratous. My ultimate plan is to make a 4 cell one like this....almost looks like a small battery! Polycarb is sooo expensive here though, I am just biding my time till I can find a redundant piece somewhere :cool:;)

Stratous
07-02-2008, 08:59 AM
I sincerely appreciate all the kudo's on this build. Thanks

Smith03Jetta
07-02-2008, 09:58 AM
I like the idea of using polycarbonate plastic to build a cool looking case. I did notice on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate that Sodium Hydroxide will damage polycarbonate plastic. A list of chemicals that will damage the material is listed at the bottom of the page along with others that are safe and some you should use caution with.

Mr. Smith

Stratous
07-02-2008, 10:13 AM
Probably should switch to KOH then to avoid any future problems

tbhavsar
07-02-2008, 10:36 AM
Probably should switch to KOH then to avoid any future problems

How about reaction of either NaOH or KOH with PVC? any side adversed effect? I am requesting this info this I am using PVC pipes used for pumbling.

greuvin
07-02-2008, 10:37 AM
I want one for my Subaru!!!!

Stratous
07-02-2008, 11:24 AM
I want one for my Subaru!!!!

I believe I have posted the general specs in this thread, you can build it yourself if you have the general resources to purchase and cut all the materials. Its not difficult to make, just takes time to acquire all the tools. You could contract me to build it for you, I like that idea even better.....lol

greuvin
07-02-2008, 11:41 AM
I believe I have posted the general specs in this thread, you can build it yourself if you have the general resources to purchase and cut all the materials. Its not difficult to make, just takes time to acquire all the tools. You could contract me to build it for you, I like that idea even better.....lol


Wish I did, but I'm on temporary assignment in Houston. No shop or tools here.
So, how much you want for it????????????:D

Edit. I have a 2.5 litre Subaru 4 cylinder. I'm running the W4G set-up right now. Disappointed with the results so far. Just looking to make more mpg.

Wako216
07-02-2008, 10:01 PM
nice do you have pictures of your four cell? Im all set with materials (i work in a metal stamping plant and scrap medical equip at a scrap yard on the side) but I dont wanna just make a rinky dink cell Ive done that with the pvc pipe wall plate one i made lol, i want a multi cell setup but cant decide on a series or parallel config. any input ? thanks man and once again nice clean work

Stratous
07-02-2008, 10:07 PM
nice do you have pictures of your four cell? Im all set with materials (i work in a metal stamping plant and scrap medical equip at a scrap yard on the side) but I dont wanna just make a rinky dink cell Ive done that with the pvc pipe wall plate one i made lol, i want a multi cell setup but cant decide on a series or parallel config. any input ? thanks man and once again nice clean work

I have not created the 4 cell yet, so no pictures. Imagine the previous cell about 3 times that size. What you need is 4 plate sets. Two sets run in parallel, then run those to parellel sets in series with each other. The anode cathode config should probably be +nn-nn+ on all four cells. I am currently running a similar configuration in my truck, but in a much smaller container with no nuetral plates.

computerclinic
07-02-2008, 11:29 PM
It looks like it weighs alot though; Rough idea of dry weight..Also noticed a bit of mesh on top, did you use that to bridge the cells or was that just in the mix to hold measuring stuff?

rzone
07-09-2008, 07:56 AM
Did you made any LPM measurements on those cells? it would be useful some numbers for replicating purposes....:)

Stratous
07-09-2008, 08:46 AM
The mesh was just holding the cell up off the bottem, I will post pictures of the completed cell. I have not measured the output yet.

tbhavsar
07-09-2008, 09:27 AM
Stratous,

Following are my two observations from my experiment;

1) Series:
When I tried similar 7 plate setup (+nn-nn+, using SS wall plates) two SEPARATE cells in series; the amp dropped that was good but production also dropped; I wonder why….My Honda give 14.28V out so there was enough Volts distributed across two cells.

2) Parallel: with two separate cells connected parallel; here are the results:

2.1) with one cell; gas out -> 500ml per 1 1/2 minutes; current usage 14 amp.

2.2) with two cell in parallel; 500ml in 56 Sec (close to minute); current usage amp 23.

I am surprised with above results since I was expecting to double my output; but it ONLY improved 50% (in Parallel) and dropped output in series. Am I missing anything???

Stratous
07-09-2008, 09:39 AM
Stratous,

Following are my two observations from my experiment;

1) Series:
When I tried similar 7 plate setup (+nn-nn+, using SS wall plates) two SEPARATE cells in series; the amp dropped that was good but production also dropped; I wonder why….My Honda give 14.28V out so there was enough Volts distributed across two cells.

2) Parallel: with two separate cells connected parallel; here are the results:

2.1) with one cell; gas out -> 500ml per 1 1/2 minutes; current usage 14 amp.

2.2) with two cell in parallel; 500ml in 56 Sec (close to minute); current usage amp 23.

I am surprised with above results since I was expecting to double my output; but it ONLY improved 50% (in Parallel) and dropped output in series. Am I missing anything???

No, gas production is related to amperage, but they are not directly proportional. Thats why I run series instead of parallel. Increase the electrolyte in your series cell and production will increase. The object is to produce the most gas for your amperage. 30 amps doesnt mean you will produce twice as much as 15 amps.

Stratous
07-09-2008, 09:47 AM
In theory between those two cells. If you had two double cells one in series and one in parallel both running the same amperage. They should produce the same amount of gas, but the series should produce less heat becasue the voltage is cut in half accross each cell. I havent been able to test this to be certain, but it should work that way.

tbhavsar
07-09-2008, 11:10 AM
No, gas production is related to amperage, but they are not directly proportional. Thats why I run series instead of parallel. Increase the electrolyte in your series cell and production will increase. The object is to produce the most gas for your amperage. 30 amps doesnt mean you will produce twice as much as 15 amps.

But when I connected two separate cells in series using same electrolyte; it reduced gas production. As far as Voltage, amp... I am with you...I will try increasing NaOH or KOH.

Stratous
07-09-2008, 06:32 PM
Ok, here is the video of the double cell in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQzQ566PJXw

Stratous
07-09-2008, 10:32 PM
Ok, I tested the unit when I got home. I actually added water to the fill line, which dropped the amps to about 13. I then tested the unit cold and recieved 1.4 LPM. The unit is still running now and has been for about 2 hours. The temp is only 102°F. I am dissapointed, no comments on my creation... Does it suck or something?

justaguy
07-09-2008, 11:02 PM
Stratous, great job. I just now seen your post and the video. Man that is a nice setup, lots of bubbles and low heat. I think you have something here.

HHOWolfen
07-09-2008, 11:45 PM
so, anyone who can build an HHO unit can cut and weld SS of any grade. just takes enough output, and a small enough tip, don't want HHO working back up the line to the generator. HHO cuts and welds any metal cleanly, and without need for artificial atmosphere.

rmptr
07-10-2008, 02:44 AM
Stratous, this sounds VERY good if you are holding at that low a temp and using only 13 amps draw for 1.4lpm.... That's gotta be great!

Darn! I got bandwidth probs and can't watch the video right now...

Excellent work!

rzone
07-10-2008, 02:48 AM
Dude, 1.4 lpm @13A is by far the best I notice until now. You get almost 9ml/W/min, and most DIY cells got 5.5-6 or less. But tell me pls about the level of water that you said about, or where it should be, that is one thing that I miss in my digging.
And one more thing....:) distance between plates.

crew02
07-10-2008, 07:02 AM
Mr. Wizzard. lol That is impressive, wish I could get mine to produce like that.

Ronjinsan
07-10-2008, 09:19 AM
I love the impressive look of this Strat but I dont think its producing much at all in the video....even stepped up! I really expected more production from it....maybe its just got that "powerful" look!The mere fact that you are keeping the temperature down is great though! Beautifull workmanship!:o

Stratous
07-10-2008, 01:29 PM
I love the impressive look of this Strat but I dont think its producing much at all in the video....even stepped up! I really expected more production from it....maybe its just got that "powerful" look!The mere fact that you are keeping the temperature down is great though! Beautifull workmanship!:o


Are you kidding me? At the amperage its producing a ton...lol. I could step it up to 30 and then test it. Jeez, some people are just never satisfied. I'm deeply hurt!!!!!!!!...LOL

Stratous
07-10-2008, 01:33 PM
Dude, 1.4 lpm @13A is by far the best I notice until now. You get almost 9ml/W/min, and most DIY cells got 5.5-6 or less. But tell me pls about the level of water that you said about, or where it should be, that is one thing that I miss in my digging.
And one more thing....:) distance between plates.

I dont remember talking about the water level in the video. The cell wasnt full when I shot the video because I didnt bring enough water. It actually holds about 1.5 gallons. The fill line is about 1.5" below the lid, not sure if it can be seen in the video, but there is a line. The more water the longer the cell can run w/o overheating. The plate spacing is 1/16" or 1.5mm

rzone
07-10-2008, 04:35 PM
That is where you mentioned about water level. I was intrigued about how water level/ amperage are related
. I actually added water to the fill line, which dropped the amps to about 13.
Tnx for info
One observation: I'm running my tests now using 3 plates 5" x 3" +n- with various voltages, distances between plates, etc. The production numbers are insignificant, but after watching your video I found this: having the cell laid (5" W and 3"H) the production increase in a small amount, 10% or so. Probably the bubbles have shorter distance to travel on top.
Maybe if you shoot and post on youtube the production measurement you'll have less non-believers :)

countryboy18
07-15-2008, 11:23 AM
sorry if it is off topic but how can you tell the diffrence between the diffrent types of clear plastic you guys have used for making cells?

Stratous
07-15-2008, 01:43 PM
Acrylic snap breaks like glass, polycarbonate bends. Also, when I order it, it comes with paper on both sides that say "Polycarbonate"...lol

countryboy18
07-15-2008, 11:44 PM
so you like poly better than acrylic because of the bending ability. how do you cut both materials.

Stratous
07-20-2008, 02:45 AM
No, I like the poly because it is rated for alot more heat. I had to order a special saw blade designed for cutting plastic and glue that was designed to bond Polycarbonate.

Stratous
07-20-2008, 02:48 AM
That is where you mentioned about water level. I was intrigued about how water level/ amperage are related
Tnx for info
One observation: I'm running my tests now using 3 plates 5" x 3" +n- with various voltages, distances between plates, etc. The production numbers are insignificant, but after watching your video I found this: having the cell laid (5" W and 3"H) the production increase in a small amount, 10% or so. Probably the bubbles have shorter distance to travel on top.
Maybe if you shoot and post on youtube the production measurement you'll have less non-believers :)

Unfortunately I cant film the video at home, I shot the last one at work. I then recieved a butt chewing by my CMSgt for having my science project at work...lol. Oh well, someday I will get a video camera.

tbhavsar
07-20-2008, 09:33 PM
This cell ROCKS!!!!!!!! I am 20 feet away from it and I can see the HHO coming off of it. Its been running for about 30 minutes and the water isnt even warm!!!!

Sound Great!!!

Since amp is low in Series; one could add more NaOH to improve conductivities; Question: How much NaOH or KOH you used; approx. is fine per gallon of water.

Stratous
07-20-2008, 10:03 PM
Sound Great!!!

Since amp is low in Series; one could add more NaOH to improve conductivities; Question: How much NaOH or KOH you used; approx. is fine per gallon of water.

In that cell I believe it was about 3 to 4 tsp per gallon.

tbhavsar
07-20-2008, 11:49 PM
In that cell I believe it was about 3 to 4 tsp per gallon.

Thanks; Stratous. I have connected three cells in series; '+n-n+' config, with 1/8 spacing. Following are my reading on voltage and amp. I have yet to measure gas output.. hopefully in couple of days.

Cell #1: 4.03 v, voltage on neutral plate ~2v
Cell #2: 3.78 v; voltage on neutral plate ~2.10v
Cell #3: 4.40 v; voltage on neutral plate ~ 2.15v

Total amp < 3.5; kept running for 1 hr.

Question: How come 12.xx voltage from car battery is not equally divided; may it is based on slight difference between gap for each plate, surface across three cells.

rzone
07-21-2008, 02:42 AM
You got me confused here :confused: :)
How do you measure those voltages?
2 adjacent plates not connected together form a cell. +n-n+ would be 4 cells. Correct me if I'm wrong.

tbhavsar
07-21-2008, 09:56 AM
You got me confused here :confused: :)
How do you measure those voltages?
2 adjacent plates not connected together form a cell. +n-n+ would be 4 cells. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I connected multi-meter probes to + and - wire out for each cell.

Stratous
07-21-2008, 10:09 AM
most people consider the configuration +n-n+ to be 2 cells. the n plates don't constitute a cell.

daveczrn
07-21-2008, 10:12 AM
most people consider the configuration +n-n+ to be 2 cells. the n plates don't constitute a cell.

Really??? ive never herd that before. And i guess i really havent herd people using N plates for the most part.

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 11:31 AM
Cell: a small compartment, cavity, or bounded space

I think the wet cell, as used in a battery, was defined as an anode and cathode plate within an electrolyte.

The following is my definition of cells and counts

CONFIGURATION..........CELL COUNT....NOTES
+-.............................1...................m ost basic configuration
+N-...........................2...................neu tral is shared, creating both cathode on it's left side and anode on it's right side
+-+...........................2...................ca thode is shared
+NN-.........................3...................neutr al is shared, creating both cathodes on their left sides and anodes on their right sides
+-+-..........................3...................firs t cathode is shared, second anode is shared

Cell Count = Plate Count - 1

Stratous
07-21-2008, 04:24 PM
Cell: a small compartment, cavity, or bounded space

I think the wet cell, as used in a battery, was defined as an anode and cathode plate within an electrolyte.

The following is my definition of cells and counts

CONFIGURATION..........CELL COUNT....NOTES
+-.............................1...................m ost basic configuration
+N-...........................2...................neu tral is shared, creating both cathode on it's left side and anode on it's right side
+-+...........................2...................ca thode is shared
+NN-.........................3...................neutr al is shared, creating both cathodes on their left sides and anodes on their right sides
+-+-..........................3...................firs t cathode is shared, second anode is shared

Cell Count = Plate Count - 1

Ok, someone explain how its possible for an N plate to have a pos charge on one side and a neg charge on the other. We are not talking about magnets or magnetic fields, but the flow of electrons. A complete cell should be the required parts that make up a complete circuit. The N plate does not complete a circuit and there for cant constitute a cell. All things aside, a + and - plate should constitute a cell. Just my two cents.

ridelong
07-21-2008, 06:25 PM
Nice generator. What electrolyte, how much and how much water? Is it distilled? Success breeds questions.

ridelong
07-21-2008, 06:46 PM
Stratous,
As I understand it, a cell has a "natural voltage" of about 2 volts. Any more voltage applied to the cell results in waste heat.

When you put one neutral plate in, the electric field naturally balances and 1/2 the voltage is on the +n, and 1/2 the voltage is on n-.

As long as the cell count remains below Vin/cell count*2(volts), the cell will function and produce more gas per amp than a 2 plate.

I actually made a 6 plate, and measured the consecutive neutrals with a voltmeter. The Vin was 12 volt. The neutrals measured 2.4 volts. Actually any 2 consecutive plates measured 2.4 volts.

The 6 plate setup generates gas on all of the plates. The neutrals don't generate as much as + and -, but 4 extra cells generating anything for free is nice.

I am running 2 sets of 6 plates, and generating .25 liters at 7 amp, 12 volt.

336w/min/liter

Stratous
07-21-2008, 06:59 PM
Stratous,
As I understand it, a cell has a "natural voltage" of about 2 volts. Any more voltage applied to the cell results in waste heat.

When you put one neutral plate in, the electric field naturally balances and 1/2 the voltage is on the +n, and 1/2 the voltage is on n-.

As long as the cell count remains below Vin/cell count*2(volts), the cell will function and produce more gas per amp than a 2 plate.

I actually made a 6 plate, and measured the consecutive neutrals with a voltmeter. The Vin was 12 volt. The neutrals measured 2.4 volts. Actually any 2 consecutive plates measured 2.4 volts.

The 6 plate setup generates gas on all of the plates. The neutrals don't generate as much as + and -, but 4 extra cells generating anything for free is nice.

I am running 2 sets of 6 plates, and generating .25 liters at 7 amp, 12 volt.

336w/min/liter

I am not arguing that a N plate will generate. What I am arguing is that it is impossible for an N plate to carry a pos and neg charge. If that is the case then the same N plate will produce oxygen and hydrogen meaning one side will be black and the other nice and shiney. All I am really debating here is our terminology. A solid piece of conductive material cant hold a pos and neg charge, they will cancel each other out. In this cell, +N-, the N plate is for lack of a better term, Negative. In all reality, we all think of DC current wrong. Its not really a positive and negative charge. What we need to be thinking about is the direction of electron flow. The electrons flow from the - to the +, so the N plate is - because those electrons must pass through it on their way to the +. Stick your multi meter leads on the - terminal, then stick the other one on an N plate and you will see what I mean.

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 07:26 PM
Stratous,

The N plates do have a positive and a negative charge on them. The thing that is confusion you is the reference. Lets say we have -N+ config. We want to measure the voltage on each of the plates. We apply 12V across the anode and cathode.

Measurement 1
We connect the BLACK lead of our meter to the cathode and the RED lead of our meter to the anode. We should see +12V(which is what we applied).

Measurement 2
We connect the BLACK lead of our meter to the cathode and the RED lead of our meter to the neutral. We should see +6V(the voltage across this cell -N). This also means that the neutral plate has a positive charge in relation to the cathode.

Measurement 3
We connect the BLACK lead of our meter to the NEUTRAL and the RED lead of our meter to the anode. We should see +6V(the voltage across this cell N+). This also means that the neutral plate has a negative charge in relation to the anode.

Between measurements 2 and 3, the neutral is considered to have both positive and negative charges.

Stratous
07-21-2008, 07:54 PM
Stratous,

The N plates do have a positive and a negative charge on them. The thing that is confusion you is the reference. Lets say we have -N+ config. We want to measure the voltage on each of the plates. We apply 12V across the anode and cathode.

Measurement 1
We connect the BLACK lead of our meter to the cathode and the RED lead of our meter to the anode. We should see +12V(which is what we applied).

Measurement 2
We connect the BLACK lead of our meter to the cathode and the RED lead of our meter to the neutral. We should see +6V(the voltage across this cell -N). This also means that the neutral plate has a positive charge in relation to the cathode.

Measurement 3
We connect the BLACK lead of our meter to the NEUTRAL and the RED lead of our meter to the anode. We should see +6V(the voltage across this cell N+). This also means that the neutral plate has a negative charge in relation to the anode.

Between measurements 2 and 3, the neutral is considered to have both positive and negative charges.

It is impossible for a solid steel plate to hold both a negative and positive charge w/o an insulator between them especially in a DC circuit. Only the "negative" electrons actually move in a DC circuit, the poisitive dont travel through the circuit. I am not sure what your reading, but it isnt a positive or negative charge.

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 08:04 PM
It is impossible for a solid steel plate to hold both a negative and positive charge w/o an insulator between them especially in a DC circuit. Only the "negative" electrons actually move in a DC circuit, the poisitive dont travel through the circuit. I am not sure what your reading, but it isnt a positive or negative charge.

Ok. Lets try this.

We have a configuration of -+. We know if we put some voltage across it, it will produce gas. The gas forms between the plates(not the outter sides of the plates).

We now have a configuration of -N+. We know if we put some voltage(12V) across it, it will produce gas. The gas forms between the plates(not the outter sides of the plates). Even the on the neutral plate, both sides produce gas.

How do you think that the gases are produced off of the neutral plate?

Stratous
07-21-2008, 08:05 PM
I found this on the web, perhaps it explains why your readings are the way they are.

The principle of electrolysis is based on the fact that when a metal is put into water it will create a non neutral voltage. On the surface a very small quantity of positive charged metal ions will break out leaving the negative charge in the form of electrodes behind in the metal. The reaction is (Me=metal) Me -> Mez+ + z e. The metal will be negatively charged. As long as this metal is not connected to another object with a different charge, nothing will happen and a balance will have been reached.

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 08:16 PM
I found this on the web, perhaps it explains why your readings are the way they are.

The principle of electrolysis is based on the fact that when a metal is put into water it will create a non neutral voltage. On the surface a very small quantity of positive charged metal ions will break out leaving the negative charge in the form of electrodes behind in the metal. The reaction is (Me=metal) Me -> Mez+ + z e. The metal will be negatively charged. As long as this metal is not connected to another object with a different charge, nothing will happen and a balance will have been reached.

No, this is not what I was talking about.

I am talking about RELATIVE voltages.

Lets say we have 3 flashlight batteries stacked as -+-+-+. At 1.5V each, we get a total voltage of 4.5V. We do not dispute that we have
1. three batteries,
2. that each of them contribute 1.5V,
3. that there is metal to metal contact between them,
4. or that each one have polarities +-.

So, at the junctions or contact points, do we have + and - charges or not.

Key: where is the reference being taken!

Stratous
07-21-2008, 08:42 PM
I know your a smart guy and I know you know that there are neither + or - in a DC circuit. current is simply the electrons moving from an area that has alot to an area that has few. That is what current flow is. Perhaps this will explain it better than I can.

When Benjamin Franklin made his conjecture regarding the direction of charge flow (from the smooth wax to the rough wool), he set a precedent for electrical notation that exists to this day, despite the fact that we know electrons are the constituent units of charge, and that they are displaced from the wool to the wax -- not from the wax to the wool -- when those two substances are rubbed together. This is why electrons are said to have a negative charge: because Franklin assumed electric charge moved in the opposite direction that it actually does, and so objects he called "negative" (representing a deficiency of charge) actually have a surplus of electrons.

By the time the true direction of electron flow was discovered, the nomenclature of "positive" and "negative" had already been so well established in the scientific community that no effort was made to change it, although calling electrons "positive" would make more sense in referring to "excess" charge. You see, the terms "positive" and "negative" are human inventions, and as such have no absolute meaning beyond our own conventions of language and scientific description. Franklin could have just as easily referred to a surplus of charge as "black" and a deficiency as "white," in which case scientists would speak of electrons having a "white" charge (assuming the same incorrect conjecture of charge position between wax and wool).

However, because we tend to associate the word "positive" with "surplus" and "negative" with "deficiency," the standard label for electron charge does seem backward. Because of this, many engineers decided to retain the old concept of electricity with "positive" referring to a surplus of charge, and label charge flow (current) accordingly. This became known as conventional flow notation:



Others chose to designate charge flow according to the actual motion of electrons in a circuit. This form of symbology became known as electron flow notation:



In conventional flow notation, we show the motion of charge according to the (technically incorrect) labels of + and -. This way the labels make sense, but the direction of charge flow is incorrect. In electron flow notation, we follow the actual motion of electrons in the circuit, but the + and - labels seem backward. Does it matter, really, how we designate charge flow in a circuit? Not really, so long as we're consistent in the use of our symbols. You may follow an imagined direction of current (conventional flow) or the actual (electron flow) with equal success insofar as circuit analysis is concerned. Concepts of voltage, current, resistance, continuity, and even mathematical treatments such as Ohm's Law (chapter 2) and Kirchhoff's Laws (chapter 6) remain just as valid with either style of notation.

You will find conventional flow notation followed by most electrical engineers, and illustrated in most engineering textbooks. Electron flow is most often seen in introductory textbooks (this one included) and in the writings of professional scientists, especially solid-state physicists who are concerned with the actual motion of electrons in substances. These preferences are cultural, in the sense that certain groups of people have found it advantageous to envision electric current motion in certain ways. Being that most analyses of electric circuits do not depend on a technically accurate depiction of charge flow, the choice between conventional flow notation and electron flow notation is arbitrary . . . almost.

Many electrical devices tolerate real currents of either direction with no difference in operation. Incandescent lamps (the type utilizing a thin metal filament that glows white-hot with sufficient current), for example, produce light with equal efficiency regardless of current direction. They even function well on alternating current (AC), where the direction changes rapidly over time. Conductors and switches operate irrespective of current direction, as well. The technical term for this irrelevance of charge flow is nonpolarization. We could say then, that incandescent lamps, switches, and wires are nonpolarized components. Conversely, any device that functions differently on currents of different direction would be called a polarized device.

There are many such polarized devices used in electric circuits. Most of them are made of so-called semiconductor substances, and as such aren't examined in detail until the third volume of this book series. Like switches, lamps, and batteries, each of these devices is represented in a schematic diagram by a unique symbol. As one might guess, polarized device symbols typically contain an arrow within them, somewhere, to designate a preferred or exclusive direction of current. This is where the competing notations of conventional and electron flow really matter. Because engineers from long ago have settled on conventional flow as their "culture's" standard notation, and because engineers are the same people who invent electrical devices and the symbols representing them, the arrows used in these devices' symbols all point in the direction of conventional flow, not electron flow. That is to say, all of these devices' symbols have arrow marks that point against the actual flow of electrons through them.

Stratous
07-21-2008, 08:44 PM
In order for an N plate to measure both sides differently, then it would have to be an AC circuit.

Stratous
07-21-2008, 08:45 PM
THere is no doubt that there is a "potential" difference when you measure both the anode and cathode against the N plate, but that doesnt mean its "charged" differently. There is no charge, all electrons in a dc circuit are the same charge. Thats what I am trying to say.

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 09:38 PM
Ehh..what do I know, I'm just an electronics engineer with a BS degree and 25 years experience.

Stratous
07-21-2008, 09:42 PM
Ehh..what do I know, I'm just an electronics engineer with a BS degree and 25 years experience.

LMAO, thats why the above reference says this:
You will find conventional flow notation followed by most electrical engineers, and illustrated in most engineering textbooks. Electron flow is most often seen in introductory textbooks (this one included) and in the writings of professional scientists, especially solid-state physicists who are concerned with the actual motion of electrons in substances. These preferences are cultural, in the sense that certain groups of people have found it advantageous to envision electric current motion in certain ways. Being that most analyses of electric circuits do not depend on a technically accurate depiction of charge flow, the choice between conventional flow notation and electron flow notation is arbitrary . . . almost.

I never said you were wrong. I believe we are looking at the same picture, just describing it differently

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 10:03 PM
I know you mean well.

I agree with some of the stuff you said.

When you use the term "charge", I think of a voltage(a potential difference). Voltage does not flow. Current is considered to flow. So I think a "charge" does not flow.

I'm ok with both Conventional flow and Electron flow.

The point I was trying to make is that all voltages are RELATIVE. Also, a node(electrical connection) can be deemed as both positive and negative at the same time. The difference here is where the reference is. The reference is the BLACK lead of a volt meter.

Stratous
07-21-2008, 10:06 PM
I know you mean well.

I agree with some of the stuff you said.

When you use the term "charge", I think of a voltage(a potential difference). Voltage does not flow. Current is considered to flow. So I think a "charge" does not flow.

I'm ok with both Conventional flow and Electron flow.

The point I was trying to make is that all voltages are RELATIVE. Also, a node(electrical connection) can be deemed as both positive and negative at the same time. The difference here is where the reference is. The reference is the BLACK lead of a volt meter.

Ok, i see where your coming from. Technically though, its not quite at the same time because you had to change your reference point to be one or the other. If that makes any sense at all. It does to me...lol

I am not attempting to argue, just trying to understand it from your point of view. I have looked at DC circuits the way I do since the Air Force trained me 19 years ago, so its a bit burned in. I realize I am not at well versed as you are in electricity, but I do play with DC circuits alot. 90% of my aircraft is DC, multi phase DC though.

gidrew
07-22-2008, 07:28 AM
If people are going to start debating these terms down to a science, its not only wasted reading on this forum, but it's going to confuse the crap out of people who are trying to follow your posts. We call a cell the unit as a whole, not each set of plates. We are using the "N" term in reference that no direct power is being applied to it from + or - so people know it is not directly connected to anything. True power may pass through it, or be conducted from it, who cares, it is producing hydroxy and that is the main thing. What we are building is not new technology, we are trying to make the most efficient unit that we can find, by taking what other people do and our own findings and making the best thing for our rigs. I think stratous' cell is one of the best I've seen, very efficient, and trying to read his post's about what he is doing, has 2 pages about another topic. STRATOUS PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOUR LATEST TESTING HAS ACCOMPLISHED. I had installed a live well pump to cirulate the water through a copper coil in front of my truck, the problem I found is the brown junk the cell gives off settles in the bottom, and when it doesnt run for a little while it jams up the impeller and overloads the 3 amp fuse. If you are building a unit that can overcome the heat, you are the one to brainstorm with.

Stratous
07-22-2008, 11:53 AM
If people are going to start debating these terms down to a science, its not only wasted reading on this forum, but it's going to confuse the crap out of people who are trying to follow your posts. We call a cell the unit as a whole, not each set of plates. We are using the "N" term in reference that no direct power is being applied to it from + or - so people know it is not directly connected to anything. True power may pass through it, or be conducted from it, who cares, it is producing hydroxy and that is the main thing. What we are building is not new technology, we are trying to make the most efficient unit that we can find, by taking what other people do and our own findings and making the best thing for our rigs. I think stratous' cell is one of the best I've seen, very efficient, and trying to read his post's about what he is doing, has 2 pages about another topic. STRATOUS PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOUR LATEST TESTING HAS ACCOMPLISHED. I had installed a live well pump to cirulate the water through a copper coil in front of my truck, the problem I found is the brown junk the cell gives off settles in the bottom, and when it doesnt run for a little while it jams up the impeller and overloads the 3 amp fuse. If you are building a unit that can overcome the heat, you are the one to brainstorm with.

Ok, goto Harbor freight and purchase this pump, http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9576
This pump uses a stainless steel housing and will not clog up. It is a bit loud while running, but you shouldnt have to keep it running for long periods of time. That is what I use to keep things cool. If you want to quiet it down, then purchase a DC motor controller. As for the latest test, I have not done any lately.

tbhavsar
07-23-2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks; Stratous. I have connected three cells in series; '+n-n+' config, with 1/8 spacing. Following are my reading on voltage and amp. I have yet to measure gas output.. hopefully in couple of days.

Cell #1: 4.03 v, voltage on neutral plate ~2v
Cell #2: 3.78 v; voltage on neutral plate ~2.10v
Cell #3: 4.40 v; voltage on neutral plate ~ 2.15v

Total amp < 3.5; kept running for 1 hr.

Question: How come 12.xx voltage from car battery is not equally divided; may it is based on slight difference between gap for each plate, surface across three cells.


Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with ‘+n-n+’ plate configuration; I am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so far….

1) With Series, amp & temp is low that is good thing but it also reduced output!

Questions:
1) What is effect of ‘N’ (Neutral plates) on current (I know it drops Voltage)
2) Since same electrolyte solution works good in Parellel connection, why series connection is dropping gas output? It seems that gas production needs high current so I had to add more NaOH;

3) What is a good amount of catalyst / gallon in Series Connection?

Next Steps:
1) Currently I have added SIX tea spoon of NaOH (powder form); amp is ~3.5 but bubbles are slow; so I am wondering if I can add more….
2) Sealing plate edges to stop unwanted current flow…
3) ? (waiting for your feedback)

Stratous
07-23-2008, 01:10 PM
Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with ‘+n-n+’ plate configuration; I am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so far….

1) With Series, amp & temp is low that is good thing but it also reduced output!

Questions:
1) What is effect of ‘N’ (Neutral plates) on current (I know it drops Voltage)
2) Since same electrolyte solution works good in Parellel connection, why series connection is dropping gas output? It seems that gas production needs high current so I had to add more NaOH;

3) What is a good amount of catalyst / gallon in Series Connection?

Next Steps:
1) Currently I have added SIX tea spoon of NaOH (powder form); amp is ~3.5 but bubbles are slow; so I am wondering if I can add more….
2) Sealing plate edges to stop unwanted current flow…
3) ? (waiting for your feedback)
N plates will increase the distance between the anode and cathode and it also cuts voltage down, so current will decrease.
Series cell production drops because of lowered voltage and amperage.
There is no set amount of catalyst to use per gallon. It depends on the cell design.
Yes, you can add catalyst until you get the desired amp draw.

By increasing the amount of NAOH, your increasing the conductivity of the water. The voltage will not increase accross the cell by adding NaOH. I am not sure if there is a limit on how much NaOH to use, but in my double cell I had to use ~4 tsp to achieve the sesired amp draw. Your running 3 cells, so you may need more. I would keep adding until you acieve the desired amp draw.

Stratous
07-23-2008, 01:13 PM
@3.5 amps, how much production are you getting?

tbhavsar
07-23-2008, 06:49 PM
@3.5 amps, how much production are you getting?

Thanks for your reply; I do not have reading at 3.5 amps for three cells; this what I observed yesterday...

1) With 2 Cell Connected in Series; it took 71 Sec to fill 700ml bottle; it was showing 17amp.

2) With Three Cells in Series; it took 3.25 Minutes to fill 700ml bottle; it was showing 7amp.

EltonBrandd
07-23-2008, 09:30 PM
Thanks for your reply; I do not have reading at 3.5 amps for three cells; this what I observed yesterday...

1) With 2 Cell Connected in Series; it took 71 Sec to fill 700ml bottle; it was showing 17amp.

2) With Three Cells in Series; it took 3.25 Minutes to fill 700ml bottle; it was showing 7amp.

Something is way out of whack, what are your plate gaps? It seems to me that the units have different specs if the above specs are correct. You should have the same amperage draw with the one cell connected as you would will 3 cells in series. Check the basics on all 3 cells.

Stratous
07-24-2008, 12:05 AM
Thanks for your reply; I do not have reading at 3.5 amps for three cells; this what I observed yesterday...

1) With 2 Cell Connected in Series; it took 71 Sec to fill 700ml bottle; it was showing 17amp.

2) With Three Cells in Series; it took 3.25 Minutes to fill 700ml bottle; it was showing 7amp.


Thats very low for 17 amps. What is your plate configuration and spacing

Smith03Jetta
07-24-2008, 08:21 AM
I can see two problems with your setup. You are testing with a jumper cable. I did that a couple times and when I switched from a jumper cable to a regular wire my production increased. The problem with Jumper cables is they don't make good contact with the SS bolts.

The second problem that I had with this type of container is that the screw-on lids leak hydrogen like the Hindenburg. If you have not completely sealed the screw-on lids, you must do it.

kiwibrick
07-24-2008, 08:37 AM
Something is way out of whack, what are your plate gaps? It seems to me that the units have different specs if the above specs are correct. You should have the same amperage draw with the one cell connected as you would will 3 cells in series. Check the basics on all 3 cells.

The amps should drop as more identical units are added in series, they are basically just big resistors, so the more there are the less amps will flow

tbhavsar
07-24-2008, 09:10 AM
Thats very low for 17 amps. What is your plate configuration and spacing

my plate config is +n-n+' with 1/8 spacing maintained be nylon washer.

tbhavsar
07-24-2008, 09:13 AM
I can see two problems with your setup. You are testing with a jumper cable. I did that a couple times and when I switched from a jumper cable to a regular wire my production increased. The problem with Jumper cables is they don't make good contact with the SS bolts.

The second problem that I had with this type of container is that the screw-on lids leak hydrogen like the Hindenburg. If you have not completely sealed the screw-on lids, you must do it.

Smith03Jetta,
Thanks for your input;

1) I will see what I can do to replace jumper cable with regular 10. gauge wire...

2) I have checked for leaks and sealed with Slicon gue that I bought from HD.

dennis13030
07-24-2008, 10:53 AM
The amps should drop as more identical units are added in series, they are basically just big resistors, so the more there are the less amps will flow

Putting electrolyzers in series does reduce the current and therefore the power consumption and the gas production from each electrolyzer.

Lets say that we have one electrolyzer that pulls 6 amps. At 12V, we are using 72 Watts. This also means that the resistance of the electrolyzer is 2 Ohms. Are gas production from this unit is 1 LPM.

Now, we add a second identical electrolyzer in series with the first one. Our voltage across BOTH of them is still 12V(6V across each one). Total resistance is now 4 Ohms(2 Ohms for each unit). Now your current has been cut in half and the total gas production will be close to 0.8 LPM(80%) of what is was. Total power consumption is half of what it was before.

tbhavsar
07-24-2008, 12:31 PM
Putting electrolyzers in series does reduce the current and therefore the power consumption and the gas production from each electrolyzer.

Lets say that we have one electrolyzer that pulls 6 amps. At 12V, we are using 72 Watts. This also means that the resistance of the electrolyzer is 2 Ohms. Are gas production from this unit is 1 LPM.

Now, we add a second identical electrolyzer in series with the first one. Our voltage across BOTH of them is still 12V(6V across each one). Total resistance is now 4 Ohms(2 Ohms for each unit). Now your current has been cut in half and the total gas production will be close to 0.8 LPM(80%) of what is was. Total power consumption is half of what it was before.


1 LPM is my target; more will be bonus...

NO, there are not producing 1 LPM (from Signle, double or triple Units when connected in series).

EltonBrandd
07-24-2008, 03:26 PM
The amps should drop as more identical units are added in series, they are basically just big resistors, so the more there are the less amps will flow

Thats exactly my point. If the units were identical we would still see 17 amps across one or three units when connected in series. I don't think that they are identical, possibly the electrolyte is different from cell to cell?

timetowinarace
07-24-2008, 03:59 PM
I'm a bit confused I guess.

The purpose of nuetral plates is to drop voltage in a plate configureation in an open bath cell. Correct?

The purpose of puting a number of cells in series is to drop the voltage across each cell. Correct?

So in my mind, I'm seeing neutral plates inside a cell, dropping voltage inside that cell, after the voltage has allready been dropped by using two more identical cells in series.

So, with three cells in series @ 12V, each cell should have 4V across it (+/- for build variables) Now inside each of these four cells the plate configureation is +n-n+ if I'm correct. That leaves 2V across each plate. I think.

While 2V is an ideal goal in my mind, I tend to think it leaves very little room for build variables like plate gap, electrolyte consentration, ect. As someone has allready mentioned, it sounds like the units not being identical would cause problems.

If one cell has less resistance it will consume more power than the others. If one has less voltage because of a higher resistance it will not be able to pass current very well and will hamper the ability of the whole series to produce.

tbhavsar
07-24-2008, 09:58 PM
After adding THREE extra tea spoons of NaOH (so far I have added total 9 tea spoons); the output degraded. I guess it means that I am loosing current thru plate edges and extra leftover screw thread. Now I have sealed the edges and will cut or put electrical tape to seal extra screws length. Will try and report results….

Today following are my reading;

a) 3 Cells in Series, 13 amp; it took 2.23 min to fill 700ml

b) 2 Cells in Series, 22 amp; it took 60 secs to fill 700ml

justaguy
07-24-2008, 11:12 PM
Some sat hooking the plates up +-+-+- then hook up the cells in series give the best results. More amps with less plates and more gas

Stratous
07-25-2008, 08:26 AM
After adding THREE extra tea spoons of NaOH (so far I have added total 9 tea spoons); the output degraded. I guess it means that I am loosing current thru plate edges and extra leftover screw thread. Now I have sealed the edges and will cut or put electrical tape to seal extra screws length. Will try and report results….

Today following are my reading;

a) 3 Cells in Series, 13 amp; it took 2.23 min to fill 700ml

b) 2 Cells in Series, 22 amp; it took 60 secs to fill 700ml

I am looking at your cells and honestly, I am not seeing how your negative plate is making contact. Poor electrical connections can cause alot of heat, and its possible that you are getting alot of leakage. You should be seeing alot more production for 22amps.

tbhavsar
07-25-2008, 01:30 PM
I am looking at your cells and honestly, I am not seeing how your negative plate is making contact. Poor electrical connections can cause alot of heat, and its possible that you are getting alot of leakage. You should be seeing alot more production for 22amps.

Stratous,
I have checked for leaks but I will double check; please see if attach diagrams make sense to you. awaiting your feedback.

Stratous
07-26-2008, 01:27 PM
Thanks; Stratous. I have connected three cells in series; '+n-n+' config, with 1/8 spacing. Following are my reading on voltage and amp. I have yet to measure gas output.. hopefully in couple of days.

Cell #1: 4.03 v, voltage on neutral plate ~2v
Cell #2: 3.78 v; voltage on neutral plate ~2.10v
Cell #3: 4.40 v; voltage on neutral plate ~ 2.15v

Total amp < 3.5; kept running for 1 hr.

Question: How come 12.xx voltage from car battery is not equally divided; may it is based on slight difference between gap for each plate, surface across three cells.

Its because the cells have resistance, so as it builds in a series circuit, then the voltage will decrease.

tbhavsar
08-02-2008, 09:37 PM
I am looking at your cells and honestly, I am not seeing how your negative plate is making contact. Poor electrical connections can cause alot of heat, and its possible that you are getting alot of leakage. You should be seeing alot more production for 22amps.

Kudos to Stratous,

I changed the negative plates orientation to have proper contact using jam nuts; I have two plates connected by (screw) & two nuts, having negative wire in between two nuts. Something like this…(please see attached picture). Gas production has doubled!!!; Also double checked for leaks. There is none.

Next step is to seal plate edges. I sealed earlier with silicon based glue from Home Depot but it came off. Now I am planning to use pro-grade duct tape. What do you think?

Thanks again for your valuable input; I will post photos and LPM.