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brunet
05-02-2008, 09:14 PM
I can't seem to run my cell in my car for more than 20mins until i have to shut it down, as the heat goes up so do the amps. I am not sure how to solve it. This hho business is harder than it seems. I could put in some resistors to try and keep resistance down ? or maybe use a current or voltage limiter of some kind? reostat or poteniometer? Also i've been reading about neutral apltes. How does that work? do you hook them up in series with the electrical power?? how would a nonconductive surface help? Or do you hook the neutrals up in parrallel with the plates?

feefreehho
05-02-2008, 11:51 PM
Check out pwmpower.com or pwmpower on youtube for his tutorial on how to build your own pwm or you can buy one, too. He will explain what a pwm is and how it works.
feefreehho

brunet
05-03-2008, 05:21 AM
yea dude, thats getting pretty complicated. Wouldn't a simple variable resistor or reostat work better?

dstew2
05-03-2008, 10:03 PM
Neutral plates are isolated from the positive and negative plates. Have you tried a lower concentration of electrolyte to reduce the conductivity therefore lowering the temp?

bagrman
05-10-2008, 03:53 PM
When you put together your plates you can do this +NNN-nnn+ , this or any combination will work. you need the PMW to control the heat and power going in to the unit. 1 tablespoon of baking soda and a splash of vinegar to keep the plates clean and a cup of alcohol if there is a fear of freezing, per gal. check out zerofossilfuel on youtube, he has a great wealth of ideas, on design of these.

Latr
Chris

brunet
05-12-2008, 11:26 PM
yea that PWM is crazy complicated!!!! you need a degree to understand that! lol I tried very little electrolyte. It only lasts maybe 15 or 20 mins longer, but after a while it heats up no matter how much electrolye i start off with. Badically for me 1/2 tablespoon lasted about 20 mins until it was drawing over 60 amps and getting way to hot, you could actually feel the car bogging, seems that for a little civic engine the sweet spot is about 25amps give or take a bit. Then when it tried half a teaspoon it lasted for about 40mins before i had to shut it off.

Why would a reostat or variable resistor not work? Would the amp draw eventually out run the limitation of the reostat/resistor?. Putting in plain resistors as it heats might slow it down but probably won't stabilize it right?.

brunet
05-12-2008, 11:29 PM
I don't get how you hear about all these poeple throwing cells into there car that work great and theres no mention of heat problems! I seen a guy with a cell twice the size of myne and he never mentioned anything about uncontrolable amp draw with heat.

PWM's are about 60-90$ on ebay, theres gotta be another way. Maybe i could use a little fuel pump with a coiled up stainless steel line to cool the water. I'm going to try the neutral plates in between the plates i already have, I'll see what that does. It will probably just go for longer but eventually get to hot.

I don't seen how neutral plates cut voltage or amps. Can someone explain?

CaptainAwesome
05-13-2008, 06:04 AM
I don't seen how neutral plates cut voltage or amps. Can someone explain?

I have a hard time understanding this aswell, seems like a waste of good plates to me :)
I guess that by increasing the distance between the plates that are actually in use, the resistance in the water increases since the electrons would have to travel further or something like that. If that is the case, then why is a plate needed at all? To slow down the flow of electrons even more?

I'm going to go with a +-+-... design until someone can explain why using neutral plates would increase production. If it gets too hot I suppose the best solution might be to cool it in some clever way.

cpozzer
05-13-2008, 06:08 PM
At the moment i am trying with 2 gens link toghther in series, the amp draw is just 1,5 and the amount of bubbles is round about the same of one gen drawing 6 amps.

Cheers

CaptainAwesome
05-13-2008, 06:20 PM
At the moment i am trying with 2 gens link toghther in series, the amp draw is just 1,5 and the amount of bubbles is round about the same of one gen drawing 6 amps.

Cheers

Sounds cool! Did you try to measure litres/minute production with something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbjySj-zYw4


I will be putting something like in that video together this weekend and see if I can find differences in production using different plate setups. Guess I will be reporting back here with the result.

cpozzer
05-13-2008, 08:31 PM
ive got the thing to measure the litres per minute, i dont think it produces much, i dont think it will even get to 125ml per minute, the only thing that im intrested at the moment is to try keeping the temp down and work with low amp, ill try adding on gens and see if i can produce more keeping a low draw of amps.

brunet
05-13-2008, 09:42 PM
My cell is WAY bigger than yours. I have 9 22 GA plates that are 6"X3" big spaced at about 3/8 of an inch. I can put a tiny little pinch, and i mean a pinch, like the size of the end of an eraser on a pencil and it immediatly draws around 15 amps.

My understanding with the neutral plates is that there not physically connected right, but there sort of connected through the electrolyte, not sure which plates would go positive or negative though. We all need some more explaining on this neutral plate thing.

CaptainAwesome
05-13-2008, 11:02 PM
My understanding with the neutral plates is that there not physically connected right, but there sort of connected through the electrolyte, not sure which plates would go positive or negative though. We all need some more explaining on this neutral plate thing.

yeah I watched this guy do some tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXu4vyGjCXw

It does indeed seem they are not actually neutral even though they aren't connected. The question is if they become + or - I suppose.

brunet
05-14-2008, 09:17 PM
yea and weather they help with production or heating problems

Stratous
05-18-2008, 06:17 AM
Morning everyone, I also am having heat and Amp Draw issues. Currently, I am running a 13 plate cell in the -+-+ configuration. I am producing 1.25 liters per minute. The main problem is that the cell draws as much amps as I can supply. I have seen it draw upward of 40 amps. I even put my battery charger on the 2 amp setting and it still drew more than 10 from the charger. I may try to place some nylon plates in between the active plates. I have read someplace that the configuration of -nn+nn- works well. I need a way to A. lower the voltage to about 3 volts or B. limit the current w/o having to shut off the circuit. Anyone have any ideas?

Stratous
05-18-2008, 11:17 PM
Ok, I have made adjustments to my cell design. I am currently running 13 plates at 12V drawing 10Amps. The polarity is -NN+NN-NN+NN-. I would have more plates connected but lack of hardware is limiting me at the moment. Production is down for sure. I may be producing .75L per minute, but havent tested it yet.

Stratous
05-19-2008, 02:00 PM
ok, I have created a new cell design. Currently I am running 3 cells each with 5 plates. They are all in the same housing. I have them connected in series with each other. The total voltage applied to the circuit is 13 volts. The three cells are actually reading slightly above 4 volts each. I left them running for 2 hours last night and was still able to put my hand in the electolyte solution w/o it burning me. It was hot, but not painful. I am not sure what the amperage is as my amp meter quit working. I am pretty certain the total amp draw was less than 15 as my pwr supply didnt sound like it was working hard and none of my wires became even warm. the 2 outside cells polarity is -+-+- and the middle cell is +-+-+. There is about 3 inches of space between each cell. I have not measured the production yet as I only had the cells placed in the solution in a experimental manner. The production looks pretty good. I am betting on about a liter per minute. Will post again as I get do more testing.

Stratous
05-20-2008, 07:58 PM
I tried a 4 plate 4 cell design. The 4 cells were wired in series. The results were good, but the heat in the enclosure was pretty high. I believe it would be better to run with 2 enclosures with all cells in series. Each individual cell doesnt produce as much as a single cell would, but the voltage draw across the cell is much less and therefor less heat is ceated. I have had decent luck running 3 cells in series in a single enclosure, I was able to keep pwr applied with the enclosure opened for about 2 hours. I am sure with the lid on the enclosure, heat would have built up faster. I have purchase a small radiator, I am going to try some active cooling.

h-power
05-22-2008, 01:18 AM
...by adding a small water pump and a small radiator to the system. When the main relay turns on the electrolyzer it also turns on the water pump. The down side of this is that the system takes longer to heat up but it never overheats. I'm thinking of adding a temp switch that will delay the start of the pump until 100 degrees is acquired

Stratous
05-22-2008, 03:47 AM
Yes, I considered a switch, but I think I am going to install a manual switch to controll the pump. I purchased a small fuel pump to circulate the eletrolyte through the system. The pump moves the water pretty slowly which I feel is good. I dont want the hydrogen or oxygen to be circulated, just the liquid. Also, I am considering an inline filter.

Ronjinsan
05-22-2008, 08:37 AM
I pretty much solved my heat problems for now by switching to Sodium Hydroxide in pure water. After a few experiments I found that I could replace my 2 teaspoons of Baking powder with a tiny pinch of Hydroxide and get the same results but much cooler. I had a thermostatically controlled pump connected to a copper pipe coil and also an adjustable speed fan! Now I have only the fan running and it stays comfortably at around 60 to 70 degrees C. Oh I forgot, this is on a 7 plate cell +NN-NN+. I have done 600kms on the same water so far, with a top up of plain pure water now and again. The water seems to condition itself after about 100Kms.. Best of luck all!

brunet
05-22-2008, 09:07 PM
what are your MPG gains? type of car?

My understanding is that the neutral plates are also stainless steel but not directly connected to power.

Where do you get the hydroxide stuff?? does home depot have it? i seems it lowers the heat, hmmm but why?

h-power
05-22-2008, 10:23 PM
I use 8 plates, 4 anode 4 cathode and they are separated by 1/8". I use 1tsp of baking soda to 1 gallon of distilled water. The temp and amps climb unless some kind of cooling system is employed. I added a small water pump and radiator to the system which cured the overheating and keeps the amps at a reasonable level. I've got many of them out on the street and they work just fine.

brunet
05-23-2008, 12:20 AM
whats your mpg gains?? What kind of pump and where did you get it?? are you just using a old heater core for a Rad? and where is it mounted? do you have a thermal switched wires to a fan? sorry lots of questions lol

I have another question for everyone. Has anyone had positive results from those O2 sensor extenders?

Stratous
05-23-2008, 07:26 AM
I currently run a 16 plate system. Anode and Cathode are equal. I also am using a small radiator and a 35$ fuel pump to circulate the electrolyte. The temp so far hasnt gotten above 120 Degrees Fahrenheit. My amp Draw is good as well. My enclosure is an 8" X 8" X 5" CPVC box. My cells are set up on each side of the box with 4 plates each. The cells are set up in 2 pairs with each pair run in series. Each cell has about 7 volts running across them. I have yet to measure production, but I am certain it is at least a liter per minute as it is producing a continuous stream of bubbles in a water bottle. I wish I had a video camera. Perhaps I can photograph the rig to share with everyone.

Stratous
05-23-2008, 10:02 AM
I have tested the unit mentioned above. The first test, the unit created about 2.25 liters per minute, but I was pulling 30 amps. Thats too much for my taste. I diluted my electrolyte down slightly. My second test put about 1.5 liters per minute at 15 amps. The electrolyte temp was at 106F. I left it running for quite some time and the temp never exceeded 110F. I believe I will keep this mixture for a while and see how it works out. I am running about 1.5 Tea spoon per gallon of Sodium Hydroxide.

Stratous
05-23-2008, 10:17 AM
what are your MPG gains? type of car?

My understanding is that the neutral plates are also stainless steel but not directly connected to power.

Where do you get the hydroxide stuff?? does home depot have it? i seems it lowers the heat, hmmm but why?


whats your mpg gains?? What kind of pump and where did you get it?? are you just using a old heater core for a Rad? and where is it mounted? do you have a thermal switched wires to a fan? sorry lots of questions lol

I have another question for everyone. Has anyone had positive results from those O2 sensor extenders?

I am sure that you should use the same material for your neutral plates as you are using for your anode and cathode. Dissimilar metals could cause problems.

The Sodium Hydroxide can be purchased at Lowes and Home Depot. It is commonly used as a drain cleaner. It is also called Caustic Soda. The brand I use is made by Roebic, its call Crystal Drain Opener. 2Lbs cost about $5.
I am using a small Fuel pump that I purchased for $35 from the auto parts store, and a small transmission cooler. Currently I dont have the generator mounted in my vehicle. I plan to do that today.

My generator uses 4 cells with 4 plates each. I dont use neutral plates. I have not seen the benefit of using neutral plates so far. I did try some, but only noticed a lack of production.

The cells are wired in parallel pairs. The two pairs are wired in series. I put in about 13ish volts and each cell has about 7 volts running accross them. I have experimented running all cells in parallel an running them all in series. I found that running them in parallel and in series produced the best.

Sparkie
06-13-2008, 08:23 AM
G'day everybody :)

I have just finished testing my stainless steel block in tap water(about 3/4L and baking soda.

I added about a tea spoon of baking soda and ran it for just over an hour in an open container. At the end of the hour my solution was getting very warm. I could still stick my finger in it and hold it there but it was getting up there for heat.
The highest the amps got up to was 15A. very little water lost and what I thought was good production of hydrogen.
I haven't made a measuring device yet but I will :rolleyes:
my configuration on the block is +nnn-nnn+ 9 pieces of 316 stainless at 2.5 inches by 5.5 inches. Made out of 1mm thick positive poles and 1mm thick negative poles. The neutral plates are 2mm thick 316 stainless.The spacings are 1mm apart. Basically a zip tie between the plates like someone suggested. I managed to buy some 40mm Nylon 3/16 inch nuts and washers which I fixed three thereof up the middle of the plates. Connecting that to the supply connectors I used 1/4 inch stainless threaded rod and bent it to go through the lid of whatever container I plan to use.
So far so good. wish me luck :D I'm like a little kid in a candy store!

Sparkie

Stratous
06-13-2008, 01:07 PM
Nice sparkie, I think it should work out fine. During my own test I found that I could stick my hand in 140 degree water and not have pain. Not sure if that helps you any. I purchased a digital BBQ grill thermometer that I used for checking the temp. It looks like this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VKT1PE?smid=A1VC38T7YXB528&tag=dealtime-kitchen-20&linkCode=asn

xtremerydz
06-13-2008, 06:31 PM
where can you find the box you are using for your cell?

Stratous
06-13-2008, 07:02 PM
I purchased the box from Lowes for $22 us. It is made by cantex and is found in the electrical section.

liberybell
06-13-2008, 08:27 PM
I am also testing and I have several questions that may indicate my lack of experience, but I hope you can be patient and give me an answer or two:
1) About the size and shape of the electrodes: plate or tubing (we all know SS is the metal to use), thin or thick (thinking between 1/16" to 1/8")? If anybody here could provide (like in their signature) this information I think it will help a lot to all of us.
2) Spacing: Has anybody try to create a cell with different spaces like starting at 1/4" and reduce the space down to 1/16 on the farther in tube? My thinking is that this may help with the heat and yield same or better amount of hydrogen.
3) Housing: I saw glass, PVC, SS jars, etc. What material is best for housing?
4) Bubbler or no bubbler? How much safer is the unit with a bubbler versus one with just a flashback valve?

Thank you!

Jason marsha
07-03-2008, 12:22 AM
I noticed a number of plates configured as +NN-NN+. If hydrogen is released at the cathode (-) then I thought -NN+NN- would be the ideal configuration for the maximum release of Hydrogen?

Stratous
07-03-2008, 01:24 AM
I noticed a number of plates configured as +NN-NN+. If hydrogen is released at the cathode (-) then I thought -NN+NN- would be the ideal configuration for the maximum release of Hydrogen?

Please see this thread for your answer: http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=205

ThaSatelliteGuy
07-15-2008, 09:02 PM
I too am having bad heat issues. I like the idea of a radiator-type setup. I live in south texas and have little need for a heater. I am considering connecting to my car's heater core and turning the knob inside to heat. This will blow cold A/C air across the heater core and should give really good cooling to the system. Should dissapate the heat fast enough to not really notice any difference inside the cabin either. A couple degrees wouldnt kill me since my A/C is WAY over powered anyway.

Any reason I shouldn't?

Stratous
07-15-2008, 09:48 PM
If your running an alkaline as your electrolyte, then you best switch to baking soda before you start using the heater core.

Allen
07-16-2008, 04:03 PM
... as a newbie still in the design phase I can't tell everyone how much I appreciate their comments. This site is a goldmine.

Heat is obviously a problem. Rather than circulate the corrosive electrolyte through a radiator, why not make a simple heat exchanger? Coil some 1/4-inch SS tubing, immerse it in the tank, and connect it via tubing to a small electric pump and small motorcycle radiator containing regular water and antifreeze?

... just a thought.

daveczrn
07-16-2008, 04:39 PM
sounds like an excelent idea allen. thank you.

scottyhho
07-17-2008, 05:26 AM
The cooling system sound ok but..... Why not install a small SS pump and run some hose in front of your radiator. Let the natural air flow cool your water. Also, get away from baking soda. Yes it works but it gets hot and the water gets nasty real quick. Buy some Robec drain cleaner from lowes for 7-8 bucks. Use just a small pinch and it will work better than two scoops of baking soda.

Johnh
07-18-2008, 11:09 PM
I have a hard time understanding this aswell, seems like a waste of good plates to me :)
I guess that by increasing the distance between the plates that are actually in use, the resistance in the water increases since the electrons would have to travel further or something like that. If that is the case, then why is a plate needed at all? To slow down the flow of electrons even more?

I'm going to go with a +-+-... design until someone can explain why using neutral plates would increase production. If it gets too hot I suppose the best solution might be to cool it in some clever way.

I just posted this on another forum
it might help this question too


To make my question clearer, do we calculate voltage drop across the plates or across the cells (I call a 'cell' a gap across 2 plates)?

Does a 3 plate cell draw 6 volts or 4? And does a 3 plate cell with all 'active' plates (+-+) differ from a cell with a N instead of an active (+N-). I can't seem to get a clear explanation about this.

I thought that a single neutral plate between + and - would be + on one side and - on the other. Might affect production a bit, or might not produce at all, just absorb current. This is what I am trying to nail down. So many of us (me included) just do what someone says to do without really understanding why. I'm past that now, and want to UNDERSTAND how the process works, so I can make improvements with results I can predict with some accuracy.

I know I'm banging on about this a bit but it's important to me.

This is going to be a long explanation please forgive!
You have me confused now. first you say " I call a 'cell' a gap across 2 plates"
then
"Does a 3 plate cell "
It just cant be both

As "cell" seems to be a confusing term lets get a new term for one producing element in a generator. I'm going to call it a bay. I wanted to call it a compartment but its too long to type and one of the synonyms for compartment is bay and that term does not seem to be used at present in talking about HHO.

So a bay is the area between two plates or tubes with a voltage potential (or difference) across them. so
if we have +- we have one bay
if we have +-+ we have two bays
if we have -+- we have two bays
if we have +n- we have two bays
if we have +nnnnnn- we have 7 bays
if we have - - we have no bay(s) because there is no potential across the plates
if we have + + we have no bay(s) because there is no potential across the plates.

It isnt correct to say a cell "draws" voltage a cell just handles the voltage supplied to it. how it divides it between the bays depends entirely on how it is designed.
The way that a -n+ cell with 2 bays differs from a +-+ cell with two bays is in the potential or voltage through the bay.
Assuming a 12 volt supply in the first example we have 12/2bays = 6 volts across each bay. (read further I explain it more)
In the 2nd we assume that the 2 +plates are on a common wire so we have 12 volts across each bay because the positives are joined in parallel and both are 12 V. A -+- cell would also be the same 12 volts across each bay The -plates are joined together and to earth.
If two +- cells are joined together in series with a wire shown .......
we have +supply...........+-...........+-............-earth
it looks incorrect to have a - and + joined together, how can one be negative and one positive? this is exactly the same situation we have in a +n- cell. The answer is the plate or plates don't care what we call them, they only care what potential they see on the plate next to them. so the first - (closest to supply) sees it has a lower voltage than the first + and acts as a cathode. the second + although it is joined to the first - sees it has a higher voltage than its -plate partner and acts as an anode. So similarly one side of an N plate can act as an anode and one side a cathode without any conflict. If you get a multimeter and measure the voltage with the mm negative lead on the n plate (or the joined plates in the series unit) you will find +6v to the supply and -6v to the earth. A series connection divides the voltage but the same amps flow thru each cell. A parallel connection keeps the same voltage but the amps divide up between the cells


Less voltage on each bay will give less current flow and less heat so you either add neutral plates or wire cells in series.
Or start with no electrolyte in the water and add a grain at a time until you get the amp draw you want.
I suppose if you started by boiling the water in a kettle you wouldn't have to wait to see what the hot draw is like you would have it right from the start
John

F150
08-18-2008, 12:21 AM
Hi there, Great thread on HHO, Id like to join if you all dont mind.
Im new to the HHO thing and was pesamistic. I built a cheesy electrolyzer with pvc and 3 pcs of SS mesh. (-+-) and hooked it strait into my intake via vacuum line. Baking soda & a 10 amp draw. I went from 16 to 25mpg! And didnt monkey with any sensors. So now that Im a believer I too need to get the heat issue worked out. Im boiling and intoducing steam in 30 minutes.

F150
08-18-2008, 12:36 AM
Johnh pointed out that voltage will drop as I run the bays in series.
Im running -+- with 12volts. If I reverse polarity (swap my wires around) I will instantly have +-+ this should give me two 6volt bays.
2 big questions: where does the heat come from? Volts or amps?
What produces more gas? Volts or Amps?

Wattage = Volts x Amps

Maybe watts are the heat culprit.

I can keep my 10amps if I lower my volts.

jjb2888
08-18-2008, 03:07 AM
voltage creates the heat. HHO production starts at around 1.5 volts and does not increase anymore at around 2 volts. Any extra volts is used to heat water. I have used a ballast resistor to drop voltage from 12 to 6 with good results. You can get one at Auto Zone for around 6 bucks and hook it inline on the positive. It also adds a little more protection to the unit because if the resistor gets to hot it will blow and shut the unit down. Any old Dodge owner can tell you carry a spare. This is cheaper than a PWM

F150
08-18-2008, 02:29 PM
Thanks alot. Well Im ready to build a new unit now and will design it for lower voltage. Other than a resistor what do you think of neutral plates or series design for lowering voltage?

And if I run my plates in series (+-+-+-)
Isnt that the same thing as (+-----)

F150
08-18-2008, 02:47 PM
Ive read that hydrogen is released at the negative and oxygen is released at the positive. Anybody agree?

DaneDHorstead
08-18-2008, 03:52 PM
Johnh pointed out that voltage will drop as I run the bays in series.
Im running -+- with 12volts. If I reverse polarity (swap my wires around) I will instantly have +-+ this should give me two 6volt bays.
2 big questions: where does the heat come from? Volts or amps?
What produces more gas? Volts or Amps?

Wattage = Volts x Amps

Maybe watts are the heat culprit.

I can keep my 10amps if I lower my volts.
Amps create heat'

Amperage is the amount of current you are using.
Voltage is the "speed" at which it travels, through the line, and through induction.

In truth, we are not producing anything, but we are altering the electronic structure of the hydrogen atoms (through intentional electrolysis).

Once we change the negative hydrogen atoms to a positive charge, the laws of nature cause virtually everything in this hydro soup, to repell from each other, and the only way they can do that, is to get outside of the water, as vapors.

This is called the dissassociation of water!

Hydogen is naturally a negative charged atom, which take on the added electrons of the catalyst, changing it to a positive charge. hydrogen has by far the heavier amount of electrons (being 2:1 over oxygen), so it attracts to the negative pole.

Having far more atoms than the oxygen, it pulls to the negative pole (opposites attract), which causes the oxygen to repell both the hydrogen, and the positive poles.

The oxygen is uneffected by the catalyst electrons, and remains positive, but it is not attracted to the positive pole (it repels the positive pole, and the now positive hydrogen atoms).

Oxygen is not produced by the the positive pole, as well as hydrogen is not produced by the negative pole.

Both elements were there the entire time, however the absorbsion of the electrons, which altered the hydrogens electronic structure, causes all of these atoms to repell, away from each other.

Matter can not be created, or destroyed! But, it can be altered.

I think one of the most confusing things here is a basic missunderstanding that these elements are consumed by being burned. Gasoline burns, and leaves carbon in its place.

We are trained to belive that the fuel is consumed, and therefore is now gone!

Both oxygen, and hydrogen are burned, and they leave oxygen, and hydrogen behind.

Remember that matter can not be created, or destroyed!

Both are natural elements, and all matter is made up of elements (usually in compounds).

Basic elements, remain elements (but alterations to those elements, are effected, by the burning)

Burning the atoms, hydrogen returns to its naturally negative state, and rejoins with oxygen in the tail pipe, as water.

When gasoline is burned, it is expelled as Carbon monoxide , as it is a carbon based (fossil) fuel.

Gasoline is a compound, not a natural element. So its elemental structure is changed, breaking the bond of it's basic building blocks, but it's raw elements are left behind.

Q-Hack!
08-18-2008, 04:19 PM
Johnh pointed out that voltage will drop as I run the bays in series.
Im running -+- with 12volts. If I reverse polarity (swap my wires around) I will instantly have +-+ this should give me two 6volt bays.
2 big questions: where does the heat come from? Volts or amps?
What produces more gas? Volts or Amps?

Wattage = Volts x Amps

Maybe watts are the heat culprit.

I can keep my 10amps if I lower my volts.

You are right, it is wattage that creates heat... it is also what creates the HHO.

If you have a cell +- you have 12v across the entire cell. 2v to create HHO 10v creating heat. Current is determined by the amount of electrolyte in solution and also determines how fast it will heat up. Lets say for our example that we have enough electrolyte to cause it to heat up to 180f in 10 minutes.

If you take and change the plate configuration to +NNNNN- you now have 2v across each cell (there are now 6 cells). Using the same electrolyte solution as earlier you would now heat up in a couple of hours.

What the above examples show is that both voltage and current play a role in the development of heat... hence wattage creates heat.

The best thing you can do to reduce heat is design your cell such that you minimize the stray currents that aren't being used for making HHO. This means sealing off the edge of the plates. Also sealing off the feed lines that sit in solution as well... I had several meltdowns at the terminal lugs until I heat-shrinked my leads inside the cell. This was due to the stray current between the leads themselves.

My next step is to play with a PWM. Not for finding the magic frequency, but for controlling the amperage as the cell heats up. That way I can use the cell for long trips.

M Bell
08-18-2008, 04:49 PM
One thing that I have found that makes the most difference to the heat problem is the electrolyte. If your are having heat problems try cleaning the unit and then start with only distilled water. Add electrolyte with a dropper. You will be surprised how little of an amount of eletrolyte will make a large amperage change.

jriggs_18
08-18-2008, 04:54 PM
Where is everbody getting the radiators? Ive looked and looked for a SS one and cant find one, I guess plastic is my next choice?:(

F150
08-19-2008, 05:36 PM
what are you guys using? salt, baking soda, drano?
Ive been using sea salt.
Im almost done with my 6 plate 5 bay 2.4V cell. And am open to electrolyte suggestions and amp draw suggestions.
Thanks everyone!

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 05:38 PM
Hold your breath because you are making Chlorine gas with your "seaNaCl". Maybe try vinegar.

F150
08-19-2008, 05:44 PM
how does this compare to the chlorine fumes from a swimming pool
And if this is being drawn into the vacuum line am I really being exposed at a toxic level?
Thanks for the heads up!

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 05:49 PM
how does this compare to the chlorine fumes from a swimming pool

Those are chlorine "compounds". Wiki chlorine and research for yourself.... No problem :)

DaneDHorstead
08-19-2008, 06:53 PM
With what people spend, to get stainless steel, to make the plates, it makes absolutely no sense at all, to use salt, baking soda, vinegar, or anything else, besides Potassium Hydroxide, or Sodium Hydroxide.

Yes these catalyst are not as easy to come by, but they can be purchased!

One teaspoon of Sodium Hydroxide, per gallon of distilled water, makes a very good electrolyte, and does not draw too much amperage.

I use three generators, on the same formula, and create 1.9 Lm, at 10 amp draw, per unit.

I can get more LPM raising the ratio, but at tripple the Amps.

Lower amps, is the way to go.

These are the only two catalyst, that do not leave a residue on your plates, which reduces potential HHO production.

You don't have to take my word for it, there are litterally hundreds of places on the web, where manufactures of quality HHO generators, or generator parts tell you, their units are only to be used with Potassium Hydroxide, or Sodium Hydroxide.


Using anything else, is like lighting your cigar with a twenty dollar bill!

Sure, it will light the cigar, but it gets dammned expensive, fast, and can ruin your plates potential!

Once these other electrolytes come in contact with your plates, they leave residue that can not be removed. Further, switching positive and negative post, puts that residue on both sets of plates.

DaneDHorstead
08-19-2008, 06:56 PM
I should clarify that the above should say 10 amp draw per unit (not 1.9 LPM per unit).

It's good, but it aint that good!

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 07:03 PM
I agree with both of your comments. Personally, I use straight tap water and adjust the # of cells accordingly for desired current draw.

Jaxom
08-19-2008, 07:47 PM
I won't use tap water because there are too many chemicals and contaminants in it. If you don't know what's in the water you don't know what you're putting in your engine, and tap water varies from place to place. Use distilled water and sodium hydroxide (lye) or potassium hydroxide (potash) for a good, clean, effecient electrolyte.

jriggs_18
08-19-2008, 10:55 PM
IMO i belive testing in tap water is a good idea, because I believe that Tap water will have the same electrical properties as your KOH or NaOH solutions, but Tap H20 is much easier to handle. However, I think short term bench testings are the only goods uses for Tap Water. If you are running the unit in your vehicle it should have a real electrolyte in it.

Also What about SS external cooler like a tranny cooler for a pickup only made of SS tubing? Where could I get me one???

hydropower KY
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
I had issues with heat when I first started this.I don't have issues anymore.I have a very low cost cooling system that been very succesfull in all the systems I have installed.I use a $29.00 transmission cooler,a $38.00 shurflow pump,a $9.00 timer,a couple of fittings and an $8.00 add a link fuse line.Works great.My temp stays below 110 degrees.After running 5 hours and pulling 22amps.

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 11:35 PM
You guys into cooling now, haha, genius. I guess it is really necessary for HHO output needed eh? When I did initial test on my 12 plate 316SS 2"x12"x.06" I measured water temp at 150F. Was drawing more amps too, which means more gas. Some kind of feedback loop going on, similar to thermal runaway in bipolar transistors. Maybe coolingwill be the next greatest thing. From my experience water cooling my computer there are a few companies that manufacture smaller type rad's you guys might be looking for. Try googling Swiftech. Do research on water cooling systems fof desktops. You may find the parts you desire.

sp1r0
08-20-2008, 12:18 AM
Take a look at this pwm with gauge setup. It looks simple to install.

http://www.extremehho.com

30 Amp is not "Heavy Duty". That is a joke is what it is.

JojoJaro
08-20-2008, 12:33 AM
Take a look at this pwm with gauge setup. It looks simple to install.

http://www.extremehho.com

Nice, but it needs more amp output (at least 60 A) and at least 13.8Vdc output to simulate actual alternator output.

If you only have 12 VDC, your gen might work good and not overheat in the bench, but will overheat when subjected to 13.8 VDC in a running engine.

sp1r0
08-20-2008, 01:12 AM
He is a spammer, check his other posts...

BigTruck
08-20-2008, 02:05 AM
He is a spammer, check his other posts...
Good job sp1r0. I hadn't picked up on that. Guess I'm slow, but I'm learning.

COMP
08-20-2008, 02:17 AM
He is a spammer, check his other posts...

ya ,in other forums,,same link

F150
08-20-2008, 03:06 PM
Use distilled water and sodium hydroxide (lye) or potassium hydroxide (potash) for a good, clean, effecient electrolyte.

aka drain cleaner? or pure form? Can you give me a brand name of the product you used that had this in in?

Thanks

JojoJaro
08-20-2008, 03:15 PM
aka drain cleaner? or pure form? Can you give me a brand name of the product you used that had this in in?

Thanks

Roebic Drain Cleaner from Lowe's. Check the label. It should say 100% Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH).

smartHHO
08-20-2008, 04:02 PM
Roebic Drain Cleaner from Lowe's. Check the label. It should say 100% Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH).

Looked it up this weekend at Lowes. I seen 100%, but was crystal form. Have you been using liquid or crystal? Rest is not 100%.

Jaxom
08-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Mine is in crystal form. It's sold as "Bull's Eye Crystal Drain Cleaner" from a local hardware store.

F150
08-21-2008, 11:18 PM
Home depot, black bottle of drain opener liquid power its called. 50/50 mix of potassium and sodium hydroxide. $5. And wow! It took a ton of baking soda to draw what teaspoon of this stuff does. My cell is 99% cleaner! No mud!

I found that adding neutrals called for more electolyte. Baking soda worked ok with my first 12v one bay cell, but with my 5bay it needed 5 times the amount and turned to hot mud.

F150
08-23-2008, 06:33 PM
2002 F150 4.6 5speed 4x4. Was getting 14mpg. Now Im running cool and consistant at 19mpg.
Thank you all for your wisdom and advice.
Neutrals helped.
My container holds half a liter of water, my plates are .125x1x5 spaced 1/16.
My config. is +NNNN-. thats 2.8V per bay.
Im drawing 4.6amps with potassium/sodium hydroxide


10amps gives me 22mpg but I need more water capacity to handle the heat.

otrcomm
08-24-2008, 05:36 AM
I had heating problems also! My system went to boiling point quickly. Then setup a system similar to hydropower KY, except I use a heater core from a junk motorhome and now system stays below 100 F. I have the outfeed of recirculation system above the electrodes about two inches and infeed at bottom. This keeps a constant level in system and circulation helps strip bubbles off ss tubes. I also have a radiator overflow container plumbed into system that is calibrated to "show" the electrolyte level in the hho generators. I add electrolyte through the radiator overflow container instead of going into the hho generators. I have the heater core mounted in front of my radiator like a transmission cooler so electrolyte stays cool. I realize that you get more hydrogen production from a hotter system, but I didn't want to get into building a temperature sensor configuration to control my shurflo pump.

COMP
08-24-2008, 07:11 AM
I had heating problems also! My system went to boiling point quickly. Then setup a system similar to hydropower KY, except I use a heater core from a junk motorhome and now system stays below 100 F. I have the outfeed of recirculation system above the electrodes about two inches and infeed at bottom. This keeps a constant level in system and circulation helps strip bubbles off ss tubes. I also have a radiator overflow container plumbed into system that is calibrated to "show" the electrolyte level in the hho generators. I add electrolyte through the radiator overflow container instead of going into the hho generators. I have the heater core mounted in front of my radiator like a transmission cooler so electrolyte stays cool. I realize that you get more hydrogen production from a hotter system, but I didn't want to get into building a temperature sensor configuration to control my shurflo pump.


can you post pics of your system ?

otrcomm
08-24-2008, 07:57 AM
can you post pics of your system ?

Yeah, if I can figure out how to make the images small enough so this forum will accept them. Any ideas?

I could email them to you if you would give me an address.

COMP
08-24-2008, 01:38 PM
Yeah, if I can figure out how to make the images small enough so this forum will accept them. Any ideas?

I could email them to you if you would give me an address.

can you send them to photobucket and add a link so all can see ??

otrcomm
08-24-2008, 02:47 PM
can you send them to photobucket and add a link so all can see ??

I will setup a space online and publish some pictures. Give me some time today though, cause I got other things to do.

COMP
08-24-2008, 03:07 PM
I will setup a space online and publish some pictures. Give me some time today though, cause I got other things to do.

great :D ,,i;m still in the learning phase

F150
08-24-2008, 04:35 PM
when ever I email a pic my computer asks if I want to send as a smaller or original size. So I end up emailing pics to my self and posting the recieved smaller files. One way of doing it I guess.

Painless
08-24-2008, 04:40 PM
Yeah, if I can figure out how to make the images small enough so this forum will accept them. Any ideas?

I could email them to you if you would give me an address.

Grab yourself a copy of 'The Gimp' from:

http://www.gimp.org/ (it's free open source software)

Load your images and use the 'Image' menu option 'Scale Image'. You can also save them as jpeg's to help lower space usage.

otrcomm
08-24-2008, 06:27 PM
Grab yourself a copy of 'The Gimp' from:

http://www.gimp.org/ (it's free open source software)

Load your images and use the 'Image' menu option 'Scale Image'. You can also save them as jpeg's to help lower space usage.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Gimp. But in the mean time, here are some photos that should be self explanatory :) Except the first three were before I installed the radiator overflow container and a couple of the last three show it installed. You can see a 30 amp solenoid in one of the pictures that I use to drive the generators straight off the alternator/battery.

http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.4.2008/8.5x11-P3290721.jpg
http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.4.2008/8.5x11-P3290722.jpg
http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.4.2008/8.5x11-P3290723.jpg

http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.24.2008/8.5x11-P4180729.jpg
http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.24.2008/8.5x11-P4180730.jpg
http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.24.2008/8.5x11-P4180731.jpg

The input to the radiator overflow container is through the port on the right. This is opposite from what the cap on the container specs, but the left port has a tube to the bottom of the container, and I wanted the pump to pull from the bottom.

You can not really tell from the picture at http://www.isp-systems.net/hhogen/photos/8.4.2008/8.5x11-P3290722.jpg, but, the recirculation output ports on the generators are on the backside at about the level of the electrode contact bolts on either side of each generator. The tops of the electrode bundles proper are about two inches below this level. I am using 3/8" vinyl tubing and nylon fittings in the recirculation system except for where it connects to the heater core and there I use brass for no particular reason except I had the brass fittings available.

The system has been running about four weeks, and there is slight discoloration of the electrolyte from oxidation of my 304 ss electrodes. Nothing major though.

With this system, on a carburated 1988 Suzuki Samurai, I have realized a 53.3% increase in mpg. This is a very tired Sami with bad compression, and before I was getting 18 mpg, and now, so far, I am getting 27.6 mpg in the city. Before I started prototyping, I pulled the stock carburetor off and am using a Weber. This is my third prototype. I will put the stock carburetor back on later to see if I can fine tune it.

DaneDHorstead
08-24-2008, 08:40 PM
I have a hard time understanding this aswell, seems like a waste of good plates to me :)
I guess that by increasing the distance between the plates that are actually in use, the resistance in the water increases since the electrons would have to travel further or something like that. If that is the case, then why is a plate needed at all? To slow down the flow of electrons even more?

I'm going to go with a +-+-... design until someone can explain why using neutral plates would increase production. If it gets too hot I suppose the best solution might be to cool it in some clever way.
When using neutral plates, each neutral plate drops inducted voltage, by 2 volts.

Without using neutrals, you are inputting 14 volts (approximate alternator output), and 12 volts is exiting the negative. Any voltage over 2 (per plate) is wasted, for HHO production, and only goes to increase heat, in the generator......

However, using a set up such as +NNNNN- (dropping 2 volts at each negative plate), you voltage drops like this...........

14 12 10 8 6 4 2 with 14 volts representing the positive input, and 2 representing the negative (volts out)!

You could also double the set up as: +NNNNN-NNNNN+, and get the same electrical drop from cell to cell, but double the HHO output.

Or, even run multiple generators in parallel, set up as shown above with the 13 plate design.

And, note to Brunet, you should be measuring your calalyst as level teaspoons - Not tablespoons.

F150
08-25-2008, 12:51 AM
Right on! I had (+-+-) thats basically two 14V bays.

I re-built mine to (+NNNN-). And its crazy, the 4 middle plates arent connected to anything yet still show 2.8volts across one another!

I was amazed. Is this like a homemade capacitor or something?

otrcomm
08-25-2008, 01:27 AM
Neutral plates divide the input voltage by the number of cells you have. In your case, you have five cells between the plates. 14 divided by 5 is 2.8. Another interesting thing is if you measure the polarity of each neutral plate, you will find that the face facing the positive pole is negative and the opposite side of the same neutral plate will be negative. Each neutral plate will have one polarity on one side and the opposite polarity on the other. When you added the four neutral plates, you actually created five "unique" cells with 2.8 volts pushing through each cell. If you insulate or block off the edges of your plates, then you will eliminate "bleeding" at the edges and increase efficiency.

DaneDHorstead
08-25-2008, 01:31 PM
I had heating problems also! My system went to boiling point quickly. Then setup a system similar to hydropower KY, except I use a heater core from a junk motorhome and now system stays below 100 F. I have the outfeed of recirculation system above the electrodes about two inches and infeed at bottom. This keeps a constant level in system and circulation helps strip bubbles off ss tubes. I also have a radiator overflow container plumbed into system that is calibrated to "show" the electrolyte level in the hho generators. I add electrolyte through the radiator overflow container instead of going into the hho generators. I have the heater core mounted in front of my radiator like a transmission cooler so electrolyte stays cool. I realize that you get more hydrogen production from a hotter system, but I didn't want to get into building a temperature sensor configuration to control my shurflo pump.
You are smart to run a lower electrolyte solution, at lower temps.

If more production is needed, add a parallel system, fused separately.

I run three generators, at 10 amps each, highest registered temp is 128F. I put out 1.9 LPM, using one teaspoon Potassium Hydroxide per gallon of distilled water, and have seen a 58% increase in MPG.

On a bet, I doubled the catalyst, and experianced a trippleing of amps per unit, as well as outrageous output, but I shut it down immediately, and changed it back, so not to damage anything.

mike915
08-02-2010, 10:56 PM
At the moment i am trying with 2 gens link toghther in series, the amp draw is just 1,5 and the amount of bubbles is round about the same of one gen drawing 6 amps.

Cheers

What is a gen link??

ohiodozer
02-05-2012, 07:00 AM
I've found that if you are just using a 2 plate system, with no neutrals like I first made, then you will definitely generate a lot of heat and high amperage. I was around 20 amps on my civic and only saw a 10% increase. I was using way too much baking soda too which caused heat gains. I'm now using a 5 plate system on my 2009 and have boosted my highway mileage from 42 to 50, for a 20% increase over the past 4 months. I'm also using Sodium Hydroxide now at a teaspoon to gal. of distilled water. I also found that producing too much HHO really messes with the cars computer and you'll get terrible mileage. Moderation is way better with the newer cars, unless you want to fool around with the car's computer. My glass container doesn't get hot anymore, just barely warm. Search ohiodozer on YouTube and you can see the 2 latest versions I made. Overall, I'm happy for now with 20% less trips to the gas stations!