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feefreehho
05-02-2008, 07:47 PM
Check out pwmpower.com for free help on how to build your own pwm unit. These units can change the frequency, voltage, etc. of the power to your hho cell. This will allow more HHO production with less heat build-up. Heat is your enemy. Search pwmpower on youtube.com and check out his videos that will show you step by step how to build your own. He has gone out of his way to help those that have little money build their own.
He also sells PWMs for a very reasonable price. If you are lookntfnd HHO cells, check his channel for references.

CHRISTOPHER
06-03-2008, 01:39 AM
I hate to bring bad news but i have built that pwm 50amp and have run it on 4 cells you do not get more production at all. The more you tern it down the less hho you get. have built about 5 different types and all have same results great controle over the gas but checked through the whole rang and there is no diff in production but it does bring the curent down so the cell will not heat up as fast but will still heat up, unless you run it at 1.45v and then you production is much less but you get no heat. Anything over that will get hoter by the minute.

If you now of the secret then plz tell i would love to now have done lots of tests on this pwm and others claiming to give you better production and have still to find its worth other than beeing a very good controler for the gas output.

Ronjinsan
06-03-2008, 02:21 AM
Yeah I also want to try one but I havent seen any meaningful results yet! Anybody got a GOOD pwm going that has the right effect? In fact if you need proof try going here!

http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Hydrogen/H-Cell.htm

Fishhook
06-10-2008, 07:07 PM
I am in the process of buying/building/installing my first hho unit. If I am understanding this process, the pwm is added only to control heat?
As to the heat, what if the water was circulated through some sort of heat sink or cooler? For you experienced folk, please humor what I am sure are ignorant questions. I will have quite a few over the next couple of days.

bagrman
06-10-2008, 09:18 PM
Sorry to say that pwmpower can't keep up. I ordered mine a month ago and nothing yet. the price went from 139 to 189 since then.
Latr

bagrman
06-10-2008, 09:22 PM
Fishhook The PWM will allow you to tweek the frequency of the power coming in and that is where the savings in heat and greater gas output comes from. between 42 -43 hrtz is exposed to be the sweet spot.

Latr

xjguy
06-14-2008, 05:24 PM
hate to hijack this thread but does anyone know where i can find plans to a
build a pwm?

Phantom240
06-14-2008, 05:41 PM
Fishhook The PWM will allow you to tweek the frequency of the power coming in and that is where the savings in heat and greater gas output comes from. between 42 -43 hrtz is exposed to be the sweet spot.

Latr

Really? I heard between 4khz and 5khz is the sweet spot.

donsimpson12
06-15-2008, 12:23 PM
I bought a PWM off of ebay and am looking for a way to change the frequency.. I read somewhere that all you have to do is change the cap on the PWM but can't find the info now..

http://cgi.ebay.com/30-AMP-HYDROGEN-BOOSTER-DC-MOTOR-SPEED-CONTROL-PWM-HHO_W0QQitemZ230262239693QQihZ013QQcategoryZ71393Q QcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Any ideas on this one???

Thanks
Don

Phantom240
06-15-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm pretty sure you chance the cap. Of course, what capacitance it needs is another question. And that doesn't look like it can handle 30amps... I use one identical to that for my LED tail light boards I built and the heatsink gets pretty hot as it is... and they only draw 1.5 amps.

donsimpson12
06-15-2008, 09:16 PM
ok.. I put my unit together today..

It sure doesn't produce enough HHO to do anything, but it does product around the same amount as those that are on YouTube, ect.. hmmm..

We did make some cool HHO waterbottle bombs though.. lol...

Aside from pyro fun, I was with some really smart folks today and we all agree that I need to somehow increase the output about 5 to 7 fold to see an opportunity to see any mpg gains..

I guess I really have to figure the electronic side to get this mastered..

The PMW that I had in my previous post seemed to work ok.. At wide open it maintained a 20 amp load without any issues.

Water temps and getting more HHO is going to be key on my end..

thebargew
07-02-2008, 04:26 PM
ok.. I put my unit together today..

It sure doesn't produce enough HHO to do anything, but it does product around the same amount as those that are on YouTube, ect.. hmmm..

We did make some cool HHO waterbottle bombs though.. lol...

Aside from pyro fun, I was with some really smart folks today and we all agree that I need to somehow increase the output about 5 to 7 fold to see an opportunity to see any mpg gains..

I guess I really have to figure the electronic side to get this mastered..

The PMW that I had in my previous post seemed to work ok.. At wide open it maintained a 20 amp load without any issues.

Water temps and getting more HHO is going to be key on my end..

From my understanding the pwm is suppose to help you keep the system cool not right off the bat but on long durations. So if you used a high amount of electro to produce a fair amount of hho starting at 10 amps lets say. You would be good for short durations. If you used it for a 4 hour ride your system would be drawing 20+ amps and be much hotter.
So say your starting at 20amps.... It would be upwards of 30+.

The idea of more HHO production is not a fast volume but as able to use it longer without changing out your solution.

ELECTR0N3RD
07-03-2008, 04:16 AM
From my understanding the pwm is suppose to help you keep the system cool not right off the bat but on long durations. So if you used a high amount of electro to produce a fair amount of hho starting at 10 amps lets say. You would be good for short durations. If you used it for a 4 hour ride your system would be drawing 20+ amps and be much hotter.
So say your starting at 20amps.... It would be upwards of 30+.

The idea of more HHO production is not a fast volume but as able to use it longer without changing out your solution.

lol nice bombs, i want to try and make a potato cannon with one, :cool: lol does anyone think that will work? I almost got into trouble when i was building my first water4gas styled one, you see i was sitting on a bench waiting at the max station so i decided to finish putting my electrodes on, and a security guard asked me what i was building, so jokingly i said "just a bomb" he looked at me for a miniute then chuckled as he then realized it was a joke and then he persisted to ask so to avoid being thrown to the cement by a gorrilla of a man i told him, well...I sure thought it was funny at the time.

troymacdonald
07-05-2008, 11:30 AM
So, I woke up this morning, had a cup of coffee and a brainstorm, or perhaps just a brain drizzle...anyway, this is what I thought of:

My work bench set up is far from optimal for conducting experiments of this kind so I rely a lot on other people's observations, so here is what I've come up with through my own trial and error and reading others' information - The process of HHO production is somewhat reliant on an increase of heat, but only to a point. I have gleened/understood/observed that point to be approximately 130 degrees +/- 5%. Anything over that and you start to get too much water vapor/steam and too great of an amp draw and no increase of production, just wasted energy. SO....

PWMs may or may not work, depending on whom you speak to. How about this instead: a digital thermometer that is connected to a PWM of sorts that automatically adjusts the current input at a set temp. For example, if at 130 degrees you are drawing 20 amps and getting the HHO you need. As the temp. hits 131/132 the thermometer sends a signal to the PWM that cuts back the current to about 15 amps until the temp. drops back to 129/130.

I know those numbers probably aren't accurate, but it would seem that would work. It could also be coupled with our own O2 sensor in the lid of the bubble that would act similarly to the ones in the vehicle exhaust line but connected to the HHO circuitry instead.

These ideas might be taking an inch and stretching it a mile or over engineering what should be a simple process.

Next question: I don't know very little about building digital ciruits. Had some training on it about 10 years ago so I can eventually figure it out: where can I go to find schematics on how to build some of the stuff I mentioned?

dennis13030
07-05-2008, 11:46 AM
So, I woke up this morning, had a cup of coffee and a brainstorm, or perhaps just a brain drizzle...anyway, this is what I thought of:

My work bench set up is far from optimal for conducting experiments of this kind so I rely a lot on other people's observations, so here is what I've come up with through my own trial and error and reading others' information - The process of HHO production is somewhat reliant on an increase of heat, but only to a point. I have gleened/understood/observed that point to be approximately 130 degrees +/- 5%. Anything over that and you start to get too much water vapor/steam and too great of an amp draw and no increase of production, just wasted energy. SO....

PWMs may or may not work, depending on whom you speak to. How about this instead: a digital thermometer that is connected to a PWM of sorts that automatically adjusts the current input at a set temp. For example, if at 130 degrees you are drawing 20 amps and getting the HHO you need. As the temp. hits 131/132 the thermometer sends a signal to the PWM that cuts back the current to about 15 amps until the temp. drops back to 129/130.

I know those numbers probably aren't accurate, but it would seem that would work. It could also be coupled with our own O2 sensor in the lid of the bubble that would act similarly to the ones in the vehicle exhaust line but connected to the HHO circuitry instead.

These ideas might be taking an inch and stretching it a mile or over engineering what should be a simple process.

Next question: I don't know very little about building digital ciruits. Had some training on it about 10 years ago so I can eventually figure it out: where can I go to find schematics on how to build some of the stuff I mentioned?

On the surface, this sounds like a great idea. Use the normal operation of the electrolyzer as a heating element and use a thermostat to control it's set point temperature.

First thing, you do not need a digital thermometer. Just a RTD, a reference voltage and a simple analog amplifier. The only time you would need a thermometer is during development/installation to fix a set point temp.

Second, it may be simpler to just use a constant current source. You would still need a thermometer during development/installation to fix a maximum temperature.

Bwanar
07-07-2008, 12:40 AM
The idea sounds good. If you used a constant source however, when you turned it off for cooling you would have NO production. With varying the Amp supply off the temp, you would still have production all the time. I have beenn thinking along these lines for a week or so also.

Boltazar
07-07-2008, 10:40 PM
Recieved this today www.fuelsaver-mpg.com havent read all yet.

Pete

lou
07-07-2008, 11:35 PM
lol nice bombs, i want to try and make a potato cannon with one, :cool: lol does anyone think that will work?

I was talking to a friend about that exact thing yesterday.

how do you ck volume?
here we tried......Anyone near Tempe,AZ? that's where this went down.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0h22cZ8Wxo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0h22cZ8Wxo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

HHOWolfen
07-08-2008, 12:50 AM
has anyone considered adapting the Hydrostar Hytronics unit for PWM?

lou
07-09-2008, 10:58 PM
has anyone considered adapting the Hydrostar Hytronics unit for PWM?

No one's going to reply to you since your packing a sword! :D

dennis13030
07-09-2008, 11:41 PM
I was talking to a friend about that exact thing yesterday.

how do you ck volume?
here we tried......Anyone near Tempe,AZ? that's where this went down.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0h22cZ8Wxo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0h22cZ8Wxo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I'm on the West side of town(El Mirage).

scottyhho
07-15-2008, 02:23 PM
I have completed a nice sized generator set. i have a 4inch pvc container with six SS 5/16 bolts with SS tubes over the bolts with holes in the tubes. i've also included a 2 inch pvc bubbler and a small inline flash suppressor. it works really great (out of the car) but like everyone else, heat is an issue. i have considered a simple way of "pumping" my water through copper pipes up in front of my radiator and then back into the generator. Do you think it would help?? Thanks!!!

Stratous
07-15-2008, 02:59 PM
I have completed a nice sized generator set. i have a 4inch pvc container with six SS 5/16 bolts with SS tubes over the bolts with holes in the tubes. i've also included a 2 inch pvc bubbler and a small inline flash suppressor. it works really great (out of the car) but like everyone else, heat is an issue. i have considered a simple way of "pumping" my water through copper pipes up in front of my radiator and then back into the generator. Do you think it would help?? Thanks!!!

It will work as long as you dont use sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide as your electrolyte. You also need a pump that can handle heat. I found a pump at Harbor Frieght for $27 that has a stainless steel housing. The only problem with it is noise. Its rather loud, so I only use it for short periods of time.

ridelong
07-17-2008, 05:35 PM
I built a pwm that would go from 1% to 99%, 20 hz to 200,000 hz. I played with that thing for about 4 hours, outputting every concievable waveform, watching on my oscilloscope.

My conclusion is there is no "sweet spot" and the only use for pwm is to limit power, and output generation.

I can limit power a boat load cheaper by changing the amount of potassium hydroxide in the electrolyte.

HHO works, pwm not so much.

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 05:58 PM
I built a pwm that would go from 1% to 99%, 20 hz to 200,000 hz. I played with that thing for about 4 hours, outputting every concievable waveform, watching on my oscilloscope.

My conclusion is there is no "sweet spot" and the only use for pwm is to limit power, and output generation.

I can limit power a boat load cheaper by changing the amount of potassium hydroxide in the electrolyte.

HHO works, pwm not so much.

I completely agree with you. A pwm is only good to limit power and gas production.

computerclinic
07-18-2008, 06:52 PM
The ammount of chemicals used to make the electrolyte is a good way to manage temperature, but just as the PWM, it will also affect the ammount of gas produced. One alternative that I am experimenting with right now is the ammount of electrolyte my cell can hold.

By keeping a desirable electrolyte mixture and not using a PWM, I am able to produce a desirable ammount of gas. By increasing the volume of water, the overall temp will go down. Right now, the cell I am working on is a polycarbonate box able to hold UP TO 1 3/4 of a gallon. Great for the bench testing, but after I find the magic combination of electrolyte ratio to water volume, I may need to alter the overall form factor of the cell so I can install it in my vehicles.

I will post pix and info when its complete.

ridelong
07-18-2008, 07:26 PM
Computerclinic,
My conclusions also. Plus you aren't wasting energy and money on electronics. I am a BSEE, and I don't use electronics to generate hho.

dennis13030
07-18-2008, 08:54 PM
The ammount of chemicals used to make the electrolyte is a good way to manage temperature, but just as the PWM, it will also affect the ammount of gas produced. One alternative that I am experimenting with right now is the ammount of electrolyte my cell can hold.

By keeping a desirable electrolyte mixture and not using a PWM, I am able to produce a desirable ammount of gas. By increasing the volume of water, the overall temp will go down. Right now, the cell I am working on is a polycarbonate box able to hold UP TO 1 3/4 of a gallon. Great for the bench testing, but after I find the magic combination of electrolyte ratio to water volume, I may need to alter the overall form factor of the cell so I can install it in my vehicles.

I will post pix and info when its complete.

Can you show us a pix of your electrolyzer?

computerclinic
07-19-2008, 09:33 AM
I will post pix and detailed drawings to show all dimensions when it is completed. Right now I am only working with one good hand. It will likely be about a week before I can get back into the shop, right now its even difficult for me to type as I have 4 jammed fingers and a broken rib.

Nothing fancy, just a box that can accomodate 1 3/4 gal. and my plates. I have been toying with the idea of a curved C shaped top to allow for the best escape flow into the outlet tube. Not sure how I will pull that one off, but it will be my next experiment after working out the prime volume of electrolyte for good temps.

HomeGrown
07-20-2008, 08:06 PM
Does a PWM have the capability of producing MORE HHO than running a cell wide-open hooked directly up to a car battery? I'm happy with my cells output running direct, but of course this was just to test the cell, and now I'm looking for a PWM. I'd be disappointed if the PWM drastically cuts production.

EDIT: I posted before I read all the way thru this thread, which answered my question. Looks like I'll save money, time, and agrivation and not fall into the PWM trap. I've got enough time invested in my cells, so I'll move on without the PWM. Glad I joined this forum, this alone is valuable info to me. Thanks for sharing your experience guys!

computerclinic
07-20-2008, 10:18 PM
The only thing a PWM will do is control the eletricity going to the plates. The reason folks choose to experiment with them is that it can help (in some cases) control temperature.

You may notice that after a while of powering you cell on the bench or in your car, the water temp rises and so does the gas production..After you reach a certain temp and amperage, production begins to drop.

By regulating the electricity, it will help you control run away temps, especially in smaller generators. This comes at the cost of lost gas production though.

There is a necessary balance of things such as electrolyte mixture....volume of electrolyte in the generator....the ammount of electricty in the plates....the water temp............and probably a few other things I have yet to learn about, but what I have learned so far is that the PWM will only drop gas production and temperature as a result.

IMHO, if you have the available space, use a larger generator cell to hold more electrolyte. It will help with the temp without offsetting the necessary balance of things.

motoxfun
07-22-2008, 10:02 AM
Christopher you are evidently using the same electrolite.
To make the best use of the PWM increase the electrolite so the amperage is what you want to run, and you get there at half of the speed pot setting. How the pwm works is at low settings you get a bump of power in miliseconds, then a time frame of no power, then another bump and so on. The higher you set your speed the shorter time frame of no power so you end up with using the same power. The gas will release faster, and allow the production quicker as you allow the gas to flow from the surface of your generator if you use lower setting on your pot.

motoxfun
07-22-2008, 10:14 AM
I purchased a dc motor controller, while I had to come up with the remaining electronics to run it, I now have 200 amps for 1 minute and 100 amps constant, if I want it. I have had it from 30 to 50 amps, I have good production at 30 amps, but still need more conductivity in my wate solution to maintain the 30 amps and do it at half speed or less. Try Kelly controller, they are in China, they are thepeople that made the controller in the electric scooter I bought for teh controller I have.

daveczrn
07-22-2008, 02:48 PM
i have that you get the best production (atleast with NaOH) at about 25% solution mix while using a PWM. I do not have a PWM to test this with though.

dave

bobcampbell
07-22-2008, 07:44 PM
I have not used a PWM but I'm considering it. Not for better output but for the ability to make the dielectric solution stronger than I would normally like to make it. A strong solution would give instant cold running HHO production. This would be advantageous during short trips that never get the water hot enough to produce good volume. When the cells warm up you can use the PWM to turn down the efficiency so that the electrical system can keep up with the current demand and also to keep every thing from a melt down.

bobcampbell
07-23-2008, 12:13 AM
[QUOTE=motoxfun;4634]Christopher you are evidently using the same electrolite.
To make the best use of the PWM increase the electrolite so the amperage is what you want to run, and you get there at half of the speed pot setting. QUOTE]


Yes, Moxofun that's exactly right. It gives you a flexable range so that you can save gas on those short trips the the store as well as a 1000 mile trip. What would be nice is if you coud set the desired amps and the PWM would self adjust as the water heats up and the amps begin to flow.

I think Zero Fossil Fuel may be on to something with his self tuning tank circuit, but the PWM is not a tank circuit. I think a lot of people are expecing it to act as a tank circuit increasing the amount of gas produced but since there is no coil that's just not the case.

mec1995
08-09-2008, 07:59 PM
Sorry to say that pwmpower can't keep up. I ordered mine a month ago and nothing yet. the price went from 139 to 189 since then.
Latr

$189??? That's crazy man. Build your own or have someone do it for you.
Parts for a pwm circuit cost maybe $15 buck if you use the one with the LM324N op-amp and the power mosfet.

mec1995
08-09-2008, 08:05 PM
hate to hijack this thread but does anyone know where i can find plans to a
build a pwm?

Sure. Goto ZeroFossilFuel's website: http://www.alt-nrg.org

He has also a couple YouTube videos to show you how to built the thing...

-mec1995

mec1995
08-09-2008, 08:24 PM
[QUOTE=donsimpson12;887]ok.. I put my unit together today..

It sure doesn't produce enough HHO to do anything, but it does product around the same amount as those that are on YouTube, ect.. hmmm..

QUOTE]


The secret for a good working HHO booster is to use the correct materials.

1. Use #316 perforated stainless steel. Roll strips of it into cilinders, the length of your reservoir you're using. Between 9" and 12" is excellent. Another benefit of the perforated ss is it also uses less current and hence less heat. #314 is also good but a little more difficult to work with.

2. Don't use tap water. Use distilled water with a bit of Sodium Hydroxide (the stuff used in water softeners) as an electrolyte.

3. Use a decent amount of these cilinders (different diameters). Use 5 or six of them. Plans on how to make them are available on YouTube. The videos are about 9 minutes long, so bring a beer.

4. One thing to remember is to use a bubbler. It prevents explosions. If you don't use a bubbler, ensure your unit has 'safety' cap that can blow off in case of exessive pressure. (that may or may not happen).

5. Don't give up! Keep making them and different models until you're happy. At todays price at the pump any percentage saved is an improvement!

If your car has a carburator you don't need an EFIE. The EFIE is only needed for fuel injected cars. A decent PWM is a requirement in my opinion. The one posted on http://www.alt-nrg.org is pretty good. It allows you to adjust the Frequency, Duty Cycle, and the Current Limiting.

-mec1995

Sockfilter
08-15-2008, 07:28 AM
The secret for a good working HHO booster is to use the correct materials.

1. Use #316 perforated stainless steel. Roll strips of it into cilinders, the length of your reservoir you're using. Between 9" and 12" is excellent. Another benefit of the perforated ss is it also uses less current and hence less heat. #314 is also good but a little more difficult to work with.

2. Don't use tap water. Use distilled water with a bit of Sodium Hydroxide (the stuff used in water softeners) as an electrolyte.

3. Use a decent amount of these cilinders (different diameters). Use 5 or six of them. Plans on how to make them are available on YouTube. The videos are about 9 minutes long, so bring a beer.

4. One thing to remember is to use a bubbler. It prevents explosions. If you don't use a bubbler, ensure your unit has 'safety' cap that can blow off in case of exessive pressure. (that may or may not happen).

5. Don't give up! Keep making them and different models until you're happy. At todays price at the pump any percentage saved is an improvement!

If your car has a carburator you don't need an EFIE. The EFIE is only needed for fuel injected cars. A decent PWM is a requirement in my opinion. The one posted on http://www.alt-nrg.org is pretty good. It allows you to adjust the Frequency, Duty Cycle, and the Current Limiting.

-mec1995[/QUOTE]

I agree with you Mec, www.alt-nrg.org seems to have it together...:)
And that a PWM is a must. A PWM will not increase your brown gas output, but what it will allow you to do is mix your electrolyte in a manor that will give you great brown gas results upon initial cold start and short runs. Then the PWM will limit the amp draw on longer runs, thus helping with heat excess amp draw and alternator overload.

For example, say you have a electrolyte solution that will give you 1liter/per minute of gas on initial startup, drawing 10 amps.

After 15 minutes you are getting 1.2L/per minute at 15 amps.

The amps will keep climbing (thermal runaway) but gas output will not double like the amp draw will.

**those numbers I just pulled out of the air, but do show the idea***

Eventually we will need the PWM to limit the amp draw which directly relates to heat issues.

I dont understand how we are suppose to get the most efficiency out of our HHO generators if we dont use PWM. As it seems to me you will either suffer on the cold starts and shorts trips w/ a weak electrolyte solution, or start blowing fuses and melting PVC after a short time cause the solution is too strong to handle longer runs.

Just my thoughts,

Sock

BoyntonStu
08-15-2008, 08:33 AM
[QUOTE=donsimpson12;887]ok.. I put my unit together today..

It sure doesn't produce enough HHO to do anything, but it does product around the same amount as those that are on YouTube, ect.. hmmm..

QUOTE]


The secret for a good working HHO booster is to use the correct materials.

1. Use #316 perforated stainless steel. Roll strips of it into cilinders, the length of your reservoir you're using. Between 9" and 12" is excellent. Another benefit of the perforated ss is it also uses less current and hence less heat. #314 is also good but a little more difficult to work with.

2. Don't use tap water. Use distilled water with a bit of Sodium Hydroxide (the stuff used in water softeners) as an electrolyte.

3. Use a decent amount of these cilinders (different diameters). Use 5 or six of them. Plans on how to make them are available on YouTube. The videos are about 9 minutes long, so bring a beer.

4. One thing to remember is to use a bubbler. It prevents explosions. If you don't use a bubbler, ensure your unit has 'safety' cap that can blow off in case of exessive pressure. (that may or may not happen).

5. Don't give up! Keep making them and different models until you're happy. At todays price at the pump any percentage saved is an improvement!

If your car has a carburator you don't need an EFIE. The EFIE is only needed for fuel injected cars. A decent PWM is a requirement in my opinion. The one posted on http://www.alt-nrg.org is pretty good. It allows you to adjust the Frequency, Duty Cycle, and the Current Limiting.

-mec1995

Youtube link please.

Thanks,

BoyntonStu

sp1r0
08-15-2008, 09:22 AM
I built a pwm that would go from 1% to 99%, 20 hz to 200,000 hz. I played with that thing for about 4 hours, outputting every concievable waveform, watching on my oscilloscope.

My conclusion is there is no "sweet spot" and the only use for pwm is to limit power, and output generation.

I can limit power a boat load cheaper by changing the amount of potassium hydroxide in the electrolyte.

HHO works, pwm not so much.

Can we see that circuit you built,sounds interesting. Especially the different waveforms. Sounds like a function generator.

HHO King
10-06-2008, 08:38 PM
Try these custom built units with gauges-

http://www.extremehho.com

HHO King
10-11-2008, 10:35 PM
Sorry to say that pwmpower can't keep up. I ordered mine a month ago and nothing yet. the price went from 139 to 189 since then.
Latr



These are just as nice as the ones at pwmpower ut less expensive.

http://www.extremehho.com

Randohr
12-08-2008, 02:32 PM
I was frustrated with the pwm's so I referred to ohms law for an alternative. The point of using a pwm is to limit/control the current and control thermal runaway, correct? Thermal runaway happens when the cell voltage is above 2+-vdc (excess vdc creates heat)-->heat goes up-->current goes up-->heat goes up-->etc...This is basically a water heater. Ohms law dictates to have a fixed current you need a fixed resistance & voltage. We already have a steady voltage supply; 14.7vdc from the alternator. Cell resistance varies based on heat, cell design and electrolyte type & amount. The cell can also have fixed resistance. So how to "fix" the current without a pwm? I'm using a 1 ohm 225w resistor in series with the cell. Eagle research's Hyzor manual had a one line reference to putting a brute force cell in line with a existing load; ie Lights, heater, etc. Why not create your own load, you're doing that anyway with the cell. With a adj. 1 ohm resistor set to .7 ohms and the cell (parallel plates) electrolyte maximized, I get @ 14 amps "fixed". I could short the cell out and the current would never runaway. The voltage drop at the resistor is @10.5 vdc. This leaves @ 4 vdc at the cell. Depending on the cell, one of my cells run @ 3 vdc. 3 vdc at 14amps = 42 watts (total watts used from alternator = 205) The cell has never heated up (ambient cooling) and I get the same current under all conditions, so far. Current makes HHO, correct? It sure is a heck of a lot simpler and cheaper. The resistor can also be used as a heater for the cell; that's one of my future endeavors. Instead of 7 plates in series to get the desired 2+- vdc, you can use as much plate surface area as you can cram into the cell case and maintain the base current at all plates. Works for me. I still need to build a gas volume measurer thingy from old pop bottles to quantify my efficiency (mmw). Any questions?:)

Randohr
12-08-2008, 02:42 PM
Almost forgot, most 1 ohm power resistors are under $20 from Newark.com (compare to a pwm price). I also hooked in parallel a 1 ohm and 5 ohm resistors to get a .8 ohm "controller". You could also try two 1 ohmers in parallel = .5 ohms + .3 ohms of the cell = .8 ohms and @ 18amps. The cell volts go to @ 5 vdc with this config, but at least the cell might maintain a little heat for better efficiency.

solo33
12-08-2008, 07:13 PM
Hell no, Randohr. No way. It just ain't sound engineering to replace 26 thousand transistors, 14 heat sinks and a handful of PC poards with one resistor? Something just has to be wrong here. :D:D:D

scratch1676
12-09-2008, 12:55 AM
I dont post here much but would like to input when I think I can contribute. I bought a pwm off ebay also. I bought the smallest amperage one available and removed the mosfet and crappy little heatsink. I made another small board and installed big daddy mosfets and big daddy heatsink and high output fan and installed that in a seperate box. Why a seperate box because if you use a adequate fan and heatsink , it would not fit under your dash plus it will make some noise. I have pushed 75 amps thru it and the air off the heatsink was warm but not hot.

John Sargent
12-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Could you post a picture of exactly how you wired these resistors together, and where you put them please? I would like to try this but don't quite follow what you did (not an electronics type). I'm assuming that you put it between your battery positive and the hho unit? Sorry for the dumb questions. Thanks, John


Almost forgot, most 1 ohm power resistors are under $20 from Newark.com (compare to a pwm price). I also hooked in parallel a 1 ohm and 5 ohm resistors to get a .8 ohm "controller". You could also try two 1 ohmers in parallel = .5 ohms + .3 ohms of the cell = .8 ohms and @ 18amps. The cell volts go to @ 5 vdc with this config, but at least the cell might maintain a little heat for better efficiency.

scratch1676
12-09-2008, 09:45 AM
here are a few pics. I am going to be making my last mosfet box this afternoon and I will make pics as I go. http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee354/davis1676/DSC_0210.jpg

scratch1676
12-09-2008, 09:52 AM
here is a couple more
This picture show's the mosfet,heatsink,cooling fan in seperate box. Mosfets are behind the heatsink.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee354/davis1676/DSC_0210.jpg

closeup of inside of box. Yellow wires are only for testing it. you would hook one big negative wire to battery and the other to cell negative.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee354/davis1676/DSC_0202.jpg

picture shows mosfet box tested with the circuit board ( hard to see) circuit board will fit under or on dash the mosfet box can be mounted anywhere, closer to cell the better.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee354/davis1676/Pwmpicwithnotation.jpg

another inside shot of box
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee354/davis1676/DSC_0201.jpg

Randohr
12-09-2008, 11:21 AM
The resistors (1 ohm & 5 ohm) are bolted together in parallel. This makes a single .83 ohm resistor for the circuit. (R1*R2/R1+R2 or 5/6=.83333)
This is then wired in series with the cell; in between the cell and the battery...or 40a control relay in my case. I mounted the resistor pack on the fan shroud with the 1 ohm into the air stream for cooling. The 5 ohm doesn't get very warm, most of the current will flow through the 1 ohm. You can see my cell and bubbler tucked down by the radiator and tranny cooling lines. They are a standard pvc case, water bath, brute force style. Very ole' skool. I'm running @ 2.9 vdc at the cell w/ 14 amps. Tied in two Eagle research efie's into the O2 wiring and can turn on/off everything separately. I just finished this one last night, hoping for good results. I'm only running 6 plates, I would like to double that (new plate design needed) for better production year around. I can only stuff so many Lowe's wall plates into a 3" pvc tube. lol
Hope this helps.;)
I also uploaded a pic of one of the poor man's efies I use.

Randohr
12-09-2008, 12:47 PM
test123.........

scratch1676
12-09-2008, 11:04 PM
Good work! Hydrogen will get under your skin and you will be wanting more and more production and before you know it 40 amps will seem like it just aint enough. Start making up your next resistor!

Randohr
12-10-2008, 05:49 PM
Yea, I know what you mean. Unfortunately I already smoked two alternators with high current cell tests. My tests indicate,rule-o-thumb, 20 amps is max for the "extra" load above factory design. For safety sake I shoot for 80% of max loading, or 16 amps or less. I want 1000's of square inches of plate area at my max current. Maybe I can turn the entire trunk into a giant parallel HHO cell and the back seat into a bubbler! It would be my monster cell. :cool:

Bassman
12-17-2008, 12:35 AM
I have built 3 PWM's and have had the same results with them all. My understanding is that as your cell draws current, it heats up and this causes it to draw more current which creates more heat and causes it to draw more current..etc.
I put a strong solution in my cell's and then adjust the current on the PWM to the maximum that I want it to draw and as it warms up, it can't increase the current so that the temperature stabilizes. My single cells are set at 10 amps and with the ambient temperature in the 70's, My cell runs in the 90's.
I have just completed a dry cell with -NNNNN+NNNNN- and I plan on setting it at 20 amps. As soon as I get it installed, I'll give you some temperature readings from it.
I'm sure that the amount or volume of your container would make a big difference also.

Alt-Fuel-Sys
12-20-2008, 02:20 PM
This makes a single .83 ohm resistor for the circuit.

I'm running @ 2.9 vdc at the cell w/ 14 amps.

Your resistor is burning up 160 watts. Your HHO generator is producing less than 40 watts to put back into the system. That's a loss of more than 120 watts. The energy to do this comes from your fuel tank. I think the PWM is a better choice regulate current.

Randohr
12-21-2008, 02:52 PM
With this system I've documented MPG savings of >40% in my F150 and so far 30%+ in my Z24.
Total wattage used from the electrical system is about 200 watts. When I experimented with series cells, my wattage was very comparable to this. (14.5vdc * 14 amps) The main difference is I'm "wasting" energy from the alternator at the voltage dropping and current regulating power resistor.
My goal was to eliminate thermal runaway, lock the current below my rule-o-thumb max of 20 amps, create a system that could be understood by someone without an extensive electrical back ground, be cheap to make, and of course, WORK! I met my goal.
I know there is more efficient cell designs and better ways to utilize the available wattage. As my 4 years of electronics (US Navy PMEL) and 18+ years as an industrial electrical & instrumentation techy has taught me, sometimes the best solutions are the simplest solutions.

I do want to try a "series" brute force parallel design. Based on my tests, a cell with proper spacing and saturated electrolyte will exhibit about .3 ohms of usable current limiting resistance. With 4 of these cells in series (12 amps @ 3.6vdc ea), they may lock the current and divide the voltage similarly to what my resistor is doing. But I'd be back to the thermal runaway issue again, but it would take much longer before I blew the fuse. Unless I had a cooling system, and a flow control system and a level system and a current control system and a control panel full of leds and gauges and ...whew... it's no wonder I'm sticking with the resistor, for now. I get enough of the complexity in controls and automation from work.

On a different note; My Jeep Liberty is showing only about a 2% increase in mpg. My plate spacing is too close to produce enough HHO to make a real difference compared to my other two vehicles (based on O2 readings). I ordered a plate stack from Thegasmaker.com to try. More surface area with increased plate spacing should do the trick. The new plates will be longer and thinner so I can fit more square pegs in my round hole.

My Z24 cell is using 40.5 watts (4.35mmw) to save me 30%+ on gas. (195.75 watts total from the alternator) I'm happy with this.

ps. I'm not selling or endorsing anything, just sharing alternatives. ;)

Take care
Randohr

frodo2222
07-18-2019, 12:09 PM
From my understanding the pwm is suppose to help you keep the system cool not right off the bat but on long durations. So if you used a high amount of electro to produce a fair amount of hho starting at 10 amps lets say. You would be good for short durations. If you used it for a 4 hour ride your system would be drawing 20+ amps and be much hotter.
So say your starting at 20amps.... It would be upwards of 30+.

The idea of more HHO production is not a fast volume but as able to use it longer without changing out your solution.

My experience using a PMW was that due to the modulation it kept the gas production on a even keel rather then runaway ..what I found was that the smaller particles it creates are more powerful then the bigger ones and one does not need anywhere near as much as some say I was getting 16-17 MPG on my ford International 6.9 and went to 21-22 MPG and it got rid of ALL black smoke from unburned fuel..didn't notice any more power except one time when all of a sudden it took off like nitrous and thank god it was in a straightaway otherwise I would have killed myself!