PDA

View Full Version : Ideal Plate Thickness



dennis13030
07-03-2008, 03:18 PM
I want to use SS plates(either 304 or 316 grade). I do not want to use a harsh electrolyte mix(maybe only baking soda if any). I want the plates to last maybe ten yens before falling apart. I also do not want over do the mass of these plates.

What do you guys think would be an ideal thickness of the SS plates??

ELECTR0N3RD
07-04-2008, 01:43 AM
I want to use SS plates(either 304 or 316 grade). I do not want to use a harsh electrolyte mix(maybe only baking soda if any). I want the plates to last maybe ten yens before falling apart. I also do not want over do the mass of these plates.

What do you guys think would be an ideal thickness of the SS plates??

I hear 12 to 14 guage works pretty well.

rmptr
07-04-2008, 02:51 AM
Seven stainless steel blank receptacle covers will set you back $12 at HD.

Best

h-power
07-04-2008, 03:07 AM
Dennis, if you use baking soda with your ss plates they will last from 25 to 100 hours. It also produces a brown sludge as the plates break down. Use of KOH or NaOH removes that problem and allows the plates to last.
The number of plates and particularly neutrals will help to control the amp draw and temperature of the electrolyte.
My cells are made of 16 plates in a KOH bath and draw 5 amps at startup. In an hour they are drawing 12 amps and producing 700ml/min. The electrolyte temp tops out at about 130 when sitting in a moderate air flow.

I'm looking for plans to build an EFIE controller for use in OBD vehicles. Older diesels and carbureted engines don't need the controller but FI must have it to realize the fuel economy. Anyone have plans or has made a controller?

rmptr
07-05-2008, 12:20 AM
Dennis, you've presented a number of great info resources and I can see you'd really like to experiment with the mechanical aspects of generation.

It seems your personal experience in electronics far exceeds that of many of us mechanics stumbling around through the electrons.:)

Would you present your opinion of the EFIE devices available?
DIY diagrams, kits, and packaged products?

I'd also like to ask you to review PWM info for the group...

...I just saw a built PWM advertised for $65 and I know I probably cannot buy the components for that price, especially if I must track them down, or have them shipped from more than one source... and begin to assemble, with my own rudimentary electronic skills.

It occurs to me, that at this stage of financially pressed experimentation, it could be best to focus design work towards operation at a 20 amp draw, or less, but never to exceed 30 amps.

My logic is that almost any current production vehicle can withstand that additional draw upon the charging circuit and the average Joe can easily benefit from a mason jar HHO generator. We get a greener planet!

Of course experiments go further, yet we're all still undecided about the best configuration for even a basic unit! It hampers progress...

Thanks!

dennis13030
07-05-2008, 07:07 AM
Dennis, you've presented a number of great info resources and I can see you'd really like to experiment with the mechanical aspects of generation.

It seems your personal experience in electronics far exceeds that of many of us mechanics stumbling around through the electrons.:)

Would you present your opinion of the EFIE devices available?
DIY diagrams, kits, and packaged products?

I'd also like to ask you to review PWM info for the group...

...I just saw a built PWM advertised for $65 and I know I probably cannot buy the components for that price, especially if I must track them down, or have them shipped from more than one source... and begin to assemble, with my own rudimentary electronic skills.

It occurs to me, that at this stage of financially pressed experimentation, it could be best to focus design work towards operation at a 20 amp draw, or less, but never to exceed 30 amps.

My logic is that almost any current production vehicle can withstand that additional draw upon the charging circuit and the average Joe can easily benefit from a mason jar HHO generator. We get a greener planet!

Of course experiments go further, yet we're all still undecided about the best configuration for even a basic unit! It hampers progress...

Thanks!

rmptr

Thanks for the compliments.

So far I have not dealt with the electronics portion of the HHO topics. Except the PWMs.


I will say this about PWMs.

1. Their use will not result in better efficiency.
2. All they do is provide a means to easily dial down the overall input power being used.



EFIE devices and O2 sensors

I have never dealt with them.

h-power
07-05-2008, 01:03 PM
From my experience, once the amps start to get into the 20's heat becomes a serious issue. It can be dealt with by adding a cooling system (radiator and pump) but holding amps to just below 20 negates the need for the extra stuff. A 20 amp draw will not overly tax the average alternator but 30 will certainly affect the life expectancy of some of the components due to the much higher heat output.

I too would like to hear from someone with an electrical engineering degree that has looked at the EFIE units and debunk some of their claims.

dennis13030
07-05-2008, 04:27 PM
I think a good, experienced and trained ASE tech. should be able to give some insight on the EFIE units. I just don't know any.

rmptr
07-05-2008, 05:21 PM
Hey Dennis,

My own circumstance is similar to many others. (I don't feel like the Lone Ranger!)

I do residential service work for a living.
Rising fuel cost for my primary vehicle is diminishing my income.

Here I am at HHOForums... Ta Da!!!

I've just bought components, as described elsewhere, but am still at the armchair stage... Partly for research, and partly for fear!

If I damage my primary vehicle, my ship will go down faster than the Titanic! Yet, THAT is the vehicle I NEED improvement upon.

Dennis, would you consider this:

IF the HHO HOD generator functions to any effect, sensors in all contemporary vehicle will detect lean exhaust. ECM will then richen fuel mixture to compensate. This could negate much of the benefit of HHO HOD pertaining to the quest for mileage improvement.

IMO, some method of modifying ECM is necessary to see best results from HHO HOD. This could be accomplished by re-programming the ECM with more suitable parameters which would compensate for the addition of HHO. Unfortunately, the required tools to accomplish this task are expensive, and certainly not cost effective for single vehicle use.

That leaves us with the option of influencing the O2 sensor, and modifying it's input to the ECM.
If an O2 sensor extender is effective, KISS principle is certainly valid.
However, an EFIE device could allow more precise control.

IMO, MAP and MAF sensor manipulation will be of significantly less value to implementation of these Level One HHO HOD systems.

Regarding PWM's:
Control over the HHO generation process within a cell, once optimal mechanical specifications have been achieved, will be advantageous for purpose of uniform production and subsequent delivery.
It seems that amperage draw seems to increase over some time period related to heat rising, and vice versa. This must be controlled, for effect.

IMO, PWM is a more precise, adjustable method of control, as opposed to fluid circulation for cooling. (Although, in the end, that may be found necessary, also.)

Hopefully we shall soon come to a consensus upon optimal electrolyte concentration, and that particular aspect will no longer be employed as the secondary method of cell amperage draw.

I DO hope my presentation will be fun for you to consider!

And if anyone else is qualified to make determinations regarding the PWM's and EFIE's, it's not my intent to only pick Dennis' brain!

...If my balloon is drifting, anyone is welcome to shoot a couple arrows at it!:D

Best

Omega
07-07-2008, 04:52 AM
It kinda looks like thread drift has inadvertently occurred. Back to the subject at hand: plate thickness.

I think that 18 to 22 gauge is most suitable. Material thicker than that is harder to work with, especially drilling. Thicker material has slightly more surface area, but some experimenters actually cover the sides of their cells to limit "wasted" current (I'm not so sure I understand that, though). Zero Fossil Fuels on YouTube is a proponent of this practice.

Thinner than 22 gauge seems to be more difficult to keep flat, it's seems to want to curl. That depends on the tools you have to work with, I would imagine.

18 gauge is .0500 inch

20 gauge is .0375 inch

22 gauge is .0312 inch

24 gauge is .0250 inch

Some on the board outside the US are partial to .9mm, which is .03543 inch.

A conversion chart can be found here: http://www.corrugated-metals.com/gaugeindecimals.html

dennis13030
07-07-2008, 05:07 AM
rmptr,

It is not surprising that when a change is made to the fuel of a vehicle that there must be an update made to it's computer/sensors/program. I would hope that this update can be done by changing the program parameters for the vehicle. A perfomance shop should be able to maximize the performance and answer the question about the sensors and EFIE.

goingreen
07-07-2008, 11:45 PM
It would be best to stay away from baking soda because of the "pond scum" effect and stay away from table salt since it gives off chlorine gas.
The best electrolyte is KOH (Potasium Hydroxide) which is used in taxidermy and SOH (Sodium Hydroxide) which does have sodium in it but is just a small fraction than that of salt.
SOH (aka Lye) can be purchased in the form of Roebic Drain Cleaner from Lowes. Home Depot also sells one but I'm not sure if it's 100% SOH. Roebics is 100% SOH. It takes about 1 3/4 tsp per Gallon to make my Smack's Booster work well. (Generates 1.2 Litres/Minute at 18-20 Amps)
Hope this helps!

SlipperyNinja
07-14-2008, 05:36 AM
just wanted to poke in and clarify something that maybe is just a common short cut, maybe is an accidental accident...NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide/Lye/Don't Touch!...SOH would be Sulphur Hydroxide, and i'm not sure if that exists...i've also seen POH used somewhere instead of KOH(not sure if it was here or elsewhere), is this common short cut action? Phosphorus Hydroxide could be pretty gnarly, though....


how about that glossary of terms/abbr./etc....

and just to touch the topic...anyone know the effect of differing thicknesses of plates...say, thicker "neutral" plates might reduce amp draw....perhaps their mere presence would be enough to make the wired plates feel inadequate and proceed to work harder...just throwing stuff against the wall, hoping for a breakthrough...

u4david
07-15-2008, 05:05 AM
I do like mine 1mm thick ss plates.
Thick enough to stay straight thin enough not to have wide edges that waste el.energy.
The material is magnetic (i use spatula blades 3x8 high polished austenitic-ferritic N 1.4460)It is just the one my spatulas are made of and that is what i got.(Under 2$ each shipping included)

I got aggressive but hot production little above 20 amps with baking soda.I ordered KOH to have more stable production and some tools to do more accurate testings(my 1.2.6 plate configuration)
-NNN+NNN-.



Also i came up with o-ring spacers that allow me to control spacing on the run with out taking it apart.

I think that with magnetism is yet to be experienced.
I think that polarity could affect gas release an molecular positions in electrolyte and gas and further....?.

theoretically north should be in direction gas is released (up) but all plates should have the same polarity or should they?
I could magnetize my plates using coil from wire with plates in core and shorting battery terminals with it.

Also I'm working on laminar flow design.
Plates mounted in tube,offset to one side towards side wall, horizontally positioned whole unit with plates edges up and down.(in this case i will split the 3x8 plates the long way doubling the plate counts >2.3.12 -nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-configurationand allowing more space and friendlier hydrodynamics for flow (and further experiment with N plates quantity to 2.3.?).
As we all know hho will set the water in motion.My objective is to take the motion and direct it around back under the bottom of the plates with minimum motion energy loss.

Hoping the stream to turn loose any created hho an bring electrolyte to plate contact and possible create turbo effect where by produced energy is returned to increase production.

Also will implement thermal circulation where gas pushing hot water in to a reservoir (bubbler) will then escapes from water allowing the water to cool there and return to bottom of the unit back in to the process.

This is all in progress and no need to make this a ultimate design as wee all know failures do happened as result of our uneducated philosophies.

What do you have coming to your mind?

also ideas for enclosures al welcome.
so far i got pluming supply and also manual holder enclosure used to hold user manual on equipment both under 10$

davar
07-15-2008, 08:47 AM
Has any one used titanium plates?

dennis13030
07-15-2008, 03:32 PM
Has any one used titanium plates?

Titanium plates? I'm sorry young man I only use Platinum. Hmm yes. LOL

Are you kidding? Titanium is way to expensive.

daveczrn
07-15-2008, 03:52 PM
Has any one used titanium plates?


I'm sure titanium would work great. It works very well when anodizing aluminum to hold the aluminum part. But when titanium is still entirely too expensive. Especially because titaniums biggest advantage is that it will not corrode as fast as other materials will.

316 stainless 1/32"thick 24"x24" $44
grade 5 titanium 24"x24"x1/32" $911.21


I'll stick with the stainless.

kajreklaw
07-15-2008, 04:08 PM
I created an 8 plate small version of Smacks design.. I only get production from the two end plates and the negative post in th middle.. the neutrals just sit there taking a bath! can someone PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain the purpose of the neutrals?? what do they accomplish??

so I got frustrated and connected 4 plates POS and the ohters NEG.. lots more bubbles - LOTS OF HEAT IN THE WIRES, (12g wires). the wires i'm using are getting HHOOTT!!!! the gen itself is pretty normal, not really even warm to the touch.. I'm using an ATV 12v battery for testing my design skills (or lack there of)... I am using 6tsp of LYE (100% Roebick), pulling 11.53v @ 13+ amps, plates are 16g I bought from ACE and (drill)wire brushed them til they were brite and shiny!!(i believe i may have even thinned them out a bit!!! then scratched the heck out of them with a file and have nylon nuts/washers/threaded posts to attach the cell.

Are my plates too thick?? did I not connect something right?? I have "champagne" bubbles (lot sof them, and the wonderful fizzing sound).. but nothing is making out to my bubbler??

I apologize if this is in the wrong place for this type of question, but I saw plate thickness and thought maybe mine is too thick!?!?!!!?!

Jack

Roland Jacques
09-14-2008, 03:33 PM
I was wondering if their is any reason not to use the thinest nuetral plates possable?

i am interested in trying .004 ss for the nuetral plates. this is for sealed / dry cell type ectrolyzers.

I am thinking that Very thin N plates may be easyer to get to resonate and possable produce more HHO.

DieselBurps
09-17-2008, 07:03 PM
I was wondering if their is any reason not to use the thinest nuetral plates possable?

i am interested in trying .004 ss for the nuetral plates. this is for sealed / dry cell type ectrolyzers.

I am thinking that Very thin N plates may be easyer to get to resonate and possable produce more HHO.
I was thinking the same thing. I still need to finish assembly and start testing, but I'm using 316 Stainless foil from McMaster.com to build a series of concentric circles as plates, 6" high, fitting into a 6" diameter PVC housing. If surface area is a factor in volume of production, I'll be packing about as much as is possible into my setup.

The plates are pretty thin and definitely like to curve - it's shipping in a coiled roll that probably helps that. That's a positive thing though for my setup.

hygear
09-22-2008, 10:50 PM
I was wondering if their is any reason not to use the thinest nuetral plates possable?

i am interested in trying .004 ss for the nuetral plates. this is for sealed / dry cell type ectrolyzers.

I am thinking that Very thin N plates may be easyer to get to resonate and possable produce more HHO.



I'm not sure plates that thin will be suitable for what you're looking to do .004 is like paper or foil.I bought some for one of my earlier generator designs,and you can look at it and it wrinkles.