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Ken-nah-dee
07-03-2008, 10:50 AM
Hi all!
OK, so I made a basic HHO useing the the water4gas spiral wire design. FOr the initial test run on my dodge ram 2500, I used tap water and 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda, with the hose hooked up directly to my CAI. The first week, I got a 3.6% increase in MPG (yay). The thing paid for itself on hte first full fill-up

The second week it went back down to the normal MPG...so I assumed it was just my truck's ECU figuring things out. So I put a rush on my o2 sensor enhancer and got it hooked up, I decided to clean out the HHO cell since I had the hood open...and...

Most of the jar was filled with water so muddy it looks like hot chocolate, and some of the wires in the spiral actually melted and split apart. But the fuse was fine?

I'm guessing I might have hooked up the power backwards, but I want to know for sure before I re-do the cell

any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

dennis13030
07-03-2008, 10:59 AM
I don't believe that you can electrically hook it up backwards. Just make sure that the leads are not shorted to each other.

Here is something to consider.

1. All of the metal inside the electrolyzer must be the same material. Preferrably stainless steel(304 or 316 grade). This includes wire, nuts, bolts and washers.
2. The wires melted because the wire size was too small. Try doubling the thickness of the wire.

Try this stuff and monitor the results. Let me know what happens.

Stratous
07-03-2008, 11:25 AM
Hi all!
OK, so I made a basic HHO useing the the water4gas spiral wire design. FOr the initial test run on my dodge ram 2500, I used tap water and 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda, with the hose hooked up directly to my CAI. The first week, I got a 3.6% increase in MPG (yay). The thing paid for itself on hte first full fill-up

The second week it went back down to the normal MPG...so I assumed it was just my truck's ECU figuring things out. So I put a rush on my o2 sensor enhancer and got it hooked up, I decided to clean out the HHO cell since I had the hood open...and...

Most of the jar was filled with water so muddy it looks like hot chocolate, and some of the wires in the spiral actually melted and split apart. But the fuse was fine?

I'm guessing I might have hooked up the power backwards, but I want to know for sure before I re-do the cell

any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

what size fuse did you use? If you used a 30amp fuse and 12 gauge wire, then its possible that the wire couldnt handle the amperage.
ALso, the HHO cell generates alot of heat as heat increases so does amp draw.
Its not good to use tap water, tap water is not pure. Baking soda does not run clean for most people, especially when used with galvanized metals. When you use galvanized or nikel plated steel and unclean water, you get goop...lol.

Ken-nah-dee
07-03-2008, 02:10 PM
Thank you both for such quick replies!

I have to admit, I did go pretty cheap on this one...at the time I still wasn't sure if this was a scam or not, but I wanted to know for sure myself.

I was very happy to see that this did work, but I guess my cheapness bit me in the a$$ :o

I had a 5 amp fuse and I used 14 gauge wire...which really surprised me when the spiral wires melted since the fuse never blew. I'm not to savvy on electronics...could the 14 gauge wire have allowed too much voltage even if the amps werent' that high?

HHO Cell Mark II will be getting more good wire (316). Distilled water, and I'll probably use baking soda on this next one, but have either of you used the potassium hydroxide? This is kind of a "father daughter" project, so I've stayed way from it, but does it work that much better than the baking soda?

timetowinarace
07-03-2008, 02:28 PM
Thank you both for such quick replies!

I have to admit, I did go pretty cheap on this one...at the time I still wasn't sure if this was a scam or not, but I wanted to know for sure myself.

I was very happy to see that this did work, but I guess my cheapness bit me in the a$$ :o

I had a 5 amp fuse and I used 14 gauge wire...which really surprised me when the spiral wires melted since the fuse never blew. I'm not to savvy on electronics...could the 14 gauge wire have allowed too much voltage even if the amps werent' that high?

HHO Cell Mark II will be getting more good wire (316). Distilled water, and I'll probably use baking soda on this next one, but have either of you used the potassium hydroxide? This is kind of a "father daughter" project, so I've stayed way from it, but does it work that much better than the baking soda?

The SS spiral wires in the elctrolyte melted? Do I understand this correctly? The wires that produce hho?

If this is the case, it sounds to me that the wires corroded quickly. Low grade wire. Your fuse would not blow because current would cease rather than increase. My cousin did the same thing and has ordered better grade wire. He was happy with production with the wire electrodes though.

Hope this helps

dennis13030
07-03-2008, 04:00 PM
The SS spiral wires in the elctrolyte melted? Do I understand this correctly? The wires that produce hho?

If this is the case, it sounds to me that the wires corroded quickly. Low grade wire. Your fuse would not blow because current would cease rather than increase. My cousin did the same thing and has ordered better grade wire. He was happy with production with the wire electrodes though.

Hope this helps

It seems to be a miracle. Take some water, insert two pieces of metal separated, connect an electral power source to the metal pieces(+ lead to one and the - lead to the other) and shazzam! you start getting HHO. The metal piece attached to the negative wire produces pure hydrogen. The metal piece attached to the positive wire produces pure oxygen. You get twice as much hydrogen as oxygen(HHO, it's no longer H20). HHO means that the all of the gases produced by water electrolysis are combine.

The only issue now is how to do this in the best way possible. Nobody really knows yet.

timetowinarace
07-03-2008, 06:05 PM
It seems to be a miracle. Take some water, insert two pieces of metal separated, connect an electral power source to the metal pieces(+ lead to one and the - lead to the other) and shazzam! you start getting HHO. The metal piece attached to the negative wire produces pure hydrogen. The metal piece attached to the positive wire produces pure oxygen. You get twice as much hydrogen as oxygen(HHO, it's no longer H20). HHO means that the all of the gases produced by water electrolysis are combine.

The only issue now is how to do this in the best way possible. Nobody really knows yet.

??????? I don't see what your getting at here.

ELECTR0N3RD
07-03-2008, 07:54 PM
Try using a larger guage wire like an 8 or 10 guage, i know it sounds really big, but I had the same problem, and it worked for me, also try testing different size fuses, start with a small 5 amp fuse let it blow, then go bigger say 10 or 15 and keep going until you get one that does not blow, this should solve your problem.

ELECTR0N3RD
07-03-2008, 07:55 PM
also for more increased HHO production try using the plate method instead I noticed It creates much much much more HHO faster.

Ken-nah-dee
07-07-2008, 03:11 PM
I think the plates might be my next test if my next run of the spiral design goes bad. I just have a few more parts to go and I'll have everything gathered for the next trial, got the better 316 wire today, and actually got some distilled water. This test round is going to be a double cell!

One small question, instead of using "goop" or crazy glue for the attachments to the lid, could I just use rubber washers to create a good seal? Then if bits break, it's a lot easier to swap out the parts instead of starting over...

Thanks again to everyone for all the advice and suggestions, for a while I thought I was all on my own. Hopefully I'll gain enough experience to be able to return the favor!

Stratous
07-07-2008, 03:16 PM
Certainly, use some permatex, rubber washers and stainless nuts and bolts. They sell permatex in automotive stores. Black or red are fine for this application. The rubber washers are sold in Lowes and Home Depot.

justaguy
07-07-2008, 09:26 PM
You said the water was really muddy looking. The brown goo will eventually short the cell out I have been told. When it shorts out, you have a dead short and will melt the wires. Use sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide.

One guy was having the goo problem with baking soda and added vinegar and his cleared up. However, you will get chemical reactions mixing the two.

jousterusa
07-07-2008, 09:49 PM
It seems to be a miracle. Take some water, insert two pieces of metal separated, connect an electral power source to the metal pieces(+ lead to one and the - lead to the other) and shazzam! you start getting HHO. The metal piece attached to the negative wire produces pure hydrogen. The metal piece attached to the positive wire produces pure oxygen. You get twice as much hydrogen as oxygen(HHO, it's no longer H20). HHO means that the all of the gases produced by water electrolysis are combine.

The only issue now is how to do this in the best way possible. Nobody really knows yet.

Dennis, you ought to read my editorial of three weeks ago. It's called "A Miracle Has Happened:" An Appeal to Barack Obama. You can find it near the top of the stories (underneath the HTML) on www.american-reporter.com. I felt the same way as you.

Ronjinsan
07-08-2008, 03:50 AM
Hiya Ken and Dee

OK lets save you some time....ditch the wire! The amperage you draw through the thin wire is guaranteed to make the wire act like a fuse! It will get very hot and deteriorate quickly, in doing so it turns the baking soda and water a brown goo and any non stainless in the unit will just make matters worse. Hopefully you will have found this out already and have gone and got hold of some SS plates to make a more stable setup! Remember that when you make a cell which has larger surface area you will need more electrolyte so half teaspoon isnt going to do it! All the best! Watching with interest!

lou
07-08-2008, 05:51 AM
Hiya Ken and Dee

OK lets save you some time....ditch the wire! The amperage you draw through the thin wire is guaranteed to make the wire act like a fuse! It will get very hot and deteriorate quickly, in doing so it turns the baking soda and water a brown goo and any non stainless in the unit will just make matters worse. Hopefully you will have found this out already and have gone and got hold of some SS plates to make a more stable setup! Remember that when you make a cell which has larger surface area you will need more electrolyte so half teaspoon isnt going to do it! All the best! Watching with interest!

Well my first intro to HHO was the wire setup...

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc51/stickey_02/S6303450.jpg

Ronjinsan
07-08-2008, 07:32 AM
Well my first intro to HHO was the wire setup...

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc51/stickey_02/S6303450.jpg


So whats the pipe up the middle for? OK so you like wire...thats fine, I just cant get wire to produce or last to my satisfaction. Do you sell these systems? Regards

Ronjinsan
07-08-2008, 07:35 AM
Hey is it just me or are these posts getting mixed up?????

lou
07-08-2008, 07:39 AM
I'm not pitching the wire, it's all I knew of this HHO till I found this place. And it's not my design I believe the hose is a breather of some kind. I'd have to ask my friend and get back to you on that. And he is considering selling these things. I'v help him put them together kind of a pain in the :rolleyes:

Ronjinsan
07-08-2008, 07:41 AM
LOL OK I asked this from you in another post so please ignore the other question! PS Arent the lids a bit weak?

lou
07-08-2008, 07:47 AM
LOL OK I asked this from you in another post so please ignore the other question! PS Arent the lids a bit weak?

Haven't got enough operating time with this setup to answer that. But that plate setup really has my interest. So much so that I've all this forum in awe ....And I was suppose to do some work, I'll just do it tomorrow night:D

Ken-nah-dee
07-08-2008, 12:22 PM
Certainly, use some permatex, rubber washers and stainless nuts and bolts. They sell permatex in automotive stores. Black or red are fine for this application. The rubber washers are sold in Lowes and Home Depot.

Sweet...that's good to hear...as soon as my new wire comes in I'll be making a trip to Lowes (can't go there enough!)

I'd be interested in exploring the plate method in the future...is there a website, or e-book or anything with detailed plans I can check out?

Stratous
07-08-2008, 01:51 PM
Sweet...that's good to hear...as soon as my new wire comes in I'll be making a trip to Lowes (can't go there enough!)

I'd be interested in exploring the plate method in the future...is there a website, or e-book or anything with detailed plans I can check out?

There are many different ways to apply the plate solution. To many to possibly list. Basically you take stainless steel plates and fix them as close together as you can w/o allowing them to touch. There should be no continuity between them unless they are to be the same polarity. You can wire the plates anyway you wish. IE +-+-+- or +NNN-NNN+. Those are just two examples. The "N" represents a plate that is not elctrically connected. We call that plate neutral, though it isnt actually neutral. Once the plates are submerged and power is applied the "N" plate will carry a charge.

Ken-nah-dee
07-08-2008, 04:41 PM
WOuld the rest of the cell be prety much the same? I've seen some with extra bubbler tanks, resevoirs, etc...

Or could I just replace the wire spiral tower with a set of stainless plates and leave the hoses and everything else the way it is?

Ronjinsan
07-09-2008, 07:57 AM
Thats a good idea.....you may have to mod the connections in the lid a little but you will have a much more stable unit. Just make sure your lid can take it.....leaks are not your friend!

Ken-nah-dee
07-23-2008, 11:40 AM
Aside from modifying the connections...I had a question about the plates themselves. Do they necessarily have to be flat? Since I would be dealing with a small amount of space in the jars, could I stack the plates in a "V" shape (like Pringles) with the proper spacing? I could get more to fit inside the jar that way.

I also have a multiple cell question...I'll be doing 3 in a row for my final wire spiral experiment...typically the hose connection is supposed to start at the "base cell" then a hose goes in and another hose goes out of each add-on.
My plan is to just have one opening in the jar lid with a "tee" connector on each add-on...one side gets a hose from the previous cell and the other goes to the next cell (or intake if it's at the end of the line). (please note crappy drawings:D) Would Using the "tees" still get good flow?

EltonBrandd
07-23-2008, 05:25 PM
Aside from modifying the connections...I had a question about the plates themselves. Do they necessarily have to be flat? Since I would be dealing with a small amount of space in the jars, could I stack the plates in a "V" shape (like Pringles) with the proper spacing? I could get more to fit inside the jar that way.

I also have a multiple cell question...I'll be doing 3 in a row for my final wire spiral experiment...typically the hose connection is supposed to start at the "base cell" then a hose goes in and another hose goes out of each add-on.
My plan is to just have one opening in the jar lid with a "tee" connector on each add-on...one side gets a hose from the previous cell and the other goes to the next cell (or intake if it's at the end of the line). (please note crappy drawings:D) Would Using the "tees" still get good flow?

Plate spacing is the most important thing about cell in my opinion, which is also the reason the w4gas doesn't work for squat. The easiest way to build an effective cell without having buy stupid acrylic towers and 316l SS wire is the "Smack's booster". It is all made from parts that you can buy from home depot, except the bubbler. My bubbler is just an old Gatorade bottle with fittings drilled through the cap and sealed with goop. The only tool that I didn't have for the project was the 3/8 pipe thread tap. Read it over first, don't deviate on the plate spacing.

Ken-nah-dee
08-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Here's a thought I would send out to the experts...

With the plate designs, do they necessarily have to be vertical? If I was to still use my basic jar design, couldn't I just stack a bunch of metal discs horizontally? (while keeping spacing and correct polarity) Then instead of 3 or 4 rectangle plates, I could probably fit 7 or 8?

Has anyone tried that?