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View Full Version : New plate setup.... great results!!!!!



plumabob
07-04-2008, 05:54 AM
I am reposting this here so that all may see. Decided to try another plate configuration in my Corolla instead of the +NNN-NNN+ I was using. I came up with an 8 plate setup +- +- +- +- with a 1 inch spacing between each set and NO NEUTRAL PLATES! I hooked it up in series. So it's basically 4 cells in one box. First thing I noticed was lower amp draw using the same % of electrolyte mix. I added about another half teaspoon of the Sodium Hydroxide and man alive this baby started to pump out HHO like crazy and it still is only drawing 25 amps max. I'm easily doubling HHO production. Ran it today for a couple of hours in the Corolla and no heat or amperages issues at all. I can definitely feel the difference driving. Car is much more responsive. I have my Map Enhancer set up for about .30 volts less at 55MPH then what it was in Normal mode. No CEL light yet. So now for another fill up and some real world driving.

Bob

rmptr
07-04-2008, 11:03 AM
Could you post pics?

Thank you

dennis13030
07-04-2008, 11:20 AM
I am reposting this here so that all may see. Decided to try another plate configuration in my Corolla instead of the +NNN-NNN+ I was using. I came up with an 8 plate setup +- +- +- +- with a 1 inch spacing between each set and NO NEUTRAL PLATES! I hooked it up in series. So it's basically 4 cells in one box. First thing I noticed was lower amp draw using the same % of electrolyte mix. I added about another half teaspoon of the Sodium Hydroxide and man alive this baby started to pump out HHO like crazy and it still is only drawing 25 amps max. I'm easily doubling HHO production. Ran it today for a couple of hours in the Corolla and no heat or amperages issues at all. I can definitely feel the difference driving. Car is much more responsive. I have my Map Enhancer set up for about .30 volts less at 55MPH then what it was in Normal mode. No CEL light yet. So now for another fill up and some real world driving.

Bob

Thats great news. I would like to see the unit, the design details and the performance details.

computerclinic
07-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Are you using a PWM or any sort of active cooling plumabob?

plumabob
07-04-2008, 12:03 PM
Heres a pic of my plate setup for now. No cooling needed... no PWM needed. This is working so good I have room for one more set of plate so I'm going to break it down and add a 5th set of +-. Should boost production even more.

rmptr
07-04-2008, 01:08 PM
Excellent, Bob!

and great photo...

What are dimension of plates? gap, SS grade, etc?

Really looks like you've got a winner!

Thank you

plumabob
07-04-2008, 01:22 PM
I am just using SS switch plates at the moment. There is a 1/16 inch gap between plates. As you can see everything is bolted together using SS hardware. I just added a 5th cell, it looks like I may have to add more electrolyte but I will run it a day or so before I do as the amp draw dropped again.

Bob

h-power
07-04-2008, 03:29 PM
It looks great. What did you make your housing out of ? Do you know what kind of amps this unit draws and how many ml/min it produces?

plumabob
07-04-2008, 05:11 PM
The case is from Home Depot in the Electrical Dept. No problem with heat so far. Not to sure yet about the production but I'm guessing a least 1 liter/minute. I will let you all know soon as soon as she breaks in for a few days and I drive it around some!

Bob

rmptr
07-04-2008, 06:57 PM
OK Bob,

The lite finally comes on!
Now I believe I've deciphered what you've done in the picture...

You have the plates slit, at the top, and a tab bent over for the connection. (The photo looked kinda like there were neutral plates in between the connected plates!)

So, your next situation will be an effective seal of the box...
...which may not be too much of a biggie, as it will be under constant vacuum, of at least some degree at all times it's operating.

Please maintain your electrolyte at your consistent base formula so we can observe your amperage draw without the wildcard... well, without THAT wildcard.

Operational time and ratio of heat increase plotted against HHO production is the next factor to watch.

If we can standardize our experimental cells it will be easier to identify progress. Far better than ragtag groups running about with scatter guns bringing a duck or two home for dinner. ALL got results!

I've bought a case of Ball Mason wide mouth jars and a dozen SS blank covers today.
I'm going glass because it's available most places cheaply, and HHO production is easily visible for interested bystanders.
More people we can get involved, better off we all become.

Best

tbhavsar
07-04-2008, 08:27 PM
I am reposting this here so that all may see. Decided to try another plate configuration in my Corolla instead of the +NNN-NNN+ I was using. I came up with an 8 plate setup +- +- +- +- with a 1 inch spacing between each set and NO NEUTRAL PLATES! I hooked it up in series. So it's basically 4 cells in one box. First thing I noticed was lower amp draw using the same % of electrolyte mix. I added about another half teaspoon of the Sodium Hydroxide and man alive this baby started to pump out HHO like crazy and it still is only drawing 25 amps max. I'm easily doubling HHO production. Ran it today for a couple of hours in the Corolla and no heat or amperages issues at all. I can definitely feel the difference driving. Car is much more responsive. I have my Map Enhancer set up for about .30 volts less at 55MPH then what it was in Normal mode. No CEL light yet. So now for another fill up and some real world driving.

Bob

Can you please post gas output in LPM for this plate setup?

David Hamilton
07-05-2008, 12:21 PM
Hey Plum Do you have a photo of plate layout guess I'm confused on the
hook up looks like you have pos and neg at the top but all plates are
connected together.

plumabob
07-05-2008, 01:47 PM
I already posted a pic of my plate layout. It is just as it looks + to one end - to the other end and each set of plates connected in series as you see. I have since added 1 more set of plates to give me a total of 10 plates or 5 cells as follows
+- +- +- +- +- . Now heres some great news at idle it's pulling 18 amps after an hour of driving and producing 1.2LPM. I imagine it would be more at higher rpm's. So it's official this more then doubles what my original
+NNN-NNN+ plate setup was producing at a much lower amp draw. You do have to add a little more Sodium Hydroxide but it runs a lot cooler. Now if I can just get the computer to behave I should see a nice mileage increase.

EltonBrandd
07-05-2008, 03:31 PM
I cant make sense of the picture. Do you have a different view of the plates? And how do you seal the top?

plumabob
07-05-2008, 06:14 PM
Read my other post on my Corolla there are more pics there.

Stratous
07-05-2008, 06:40 PM
I already posted a pic of my plate layout. It is just as it looks + to one end - to the other end and each set of plates connected in series as you see. I have since added 1 more set of plates to give me a total of 10 plates or 5 cells as follows
+- +- +- +- +- . Now heres some great news at idle it's pulling 18 amps after an hour of driving and producing 1.2LPM. I imagine it would be more at higher rpm's. So it's official this more then doubles what my original
+NNN-NNN+ plate setup was producing at a much lower amp draw. You do have to add a little more Sodium Hydroxide but it runs a lot cooler. Now if I can just get the computer to behave I should see a nice mileage increase.

This is very strange, my original design was a +-+-+- set up, I switched to the +NN-NN+ because it ran much cooler with lower amp draw. I admit it doesnt produce as much, but it can run allday at 9 to 12 amps and produce 1lpm. Of course the design is larger and uses two cells run in series. My current design in my truck is 4 cells set up as +--+ with no nuetrals. It produces good, but gets hot very quickly.

justaguy
07-05-2008, 08:14 PM
Could someone describe hooked up in series. thanks

Stratous
07-05-2008, 08:47 PM
Could someone describe hooked up in series. thanks

Hooked in series is like stacking two AA batteries in top of each other. Negative to Positive to Negative to Positive.

rmptr
07-05-2008, 09:12 PM
When the bloomin' Xmas tree lights go out, you gotta check 'em all, until you find the bad one if they're in series.

If they're parallel, the rest stay on when one goes out.

:D

ELECTR0N3RD
07-05-2008, 09:46 PM
Heres a pic of my plate setup for now. No cooling needed... no PWM needed. This is working so good I have room for one more set of plate so I'm going to break it down and add a 5th set of +-. Should boost production even more.

lol you use the exact same container im using now, only my plates are round, im gonna try that set up.

ELECTR0N3RD
07-05-2008, 09:48 PM
I cant make sense of the picture. Do you have a different view of the plates? And how do you seal the top?

i use the same set up (all most) and the top just screws onto the contaner with SS screws, it has an O-ring type seal.

justaguy
07-05-2008, 11:30 PM
Thanks Stratous, I,m aware of that configuration but got confused thinking the +nnnnn- was series. Now if I had my plates +-+-+-+- how do I wire them?

plumabob
07-05-2008, 11:34 PM
Stratous, I don't know why but amp draw is way down running this setup as compared to my original +NNN-NNN+ and output is more then doubled, granted with more electrolyte but temp and amps are both much lower then before. I run no cooler or circulation lines at all and she doesn't overheat. Never went above 18 amps running for a couple of hours of highway and stop and go traffic today. Unless somebody else comes up with something better I'm staying with this for awhile.

Bob

hho_underground
07-05-2008, 11:40 PM
Hello,

Maybe someone can hellp me understand.

When I look at the pic of the +- +- +- +- cell, I see it as +n nn nn n-.

When looking at the pic, the bolt at the top left coming through the box is suppling is +. The bolt at the top right is suppling the -.

If the plates are separated by non conductive spacers, how can they be + or -.

My head hurts. Someone please enlighten me!:eek:

Thanks,
-M

Stratous
07-06-2008, 02:01 AM
Thanks Stratous, I,m aware of that configuration but got confused thinking the +nnnnn- was series. Now if I had my plates +-+-+-+- how do I wire them?

You can only do a series cell if your running more than one. if your going to run +-+-+- then just hook power to them normally. Series and parallel circuits are only applicable if you have more than one cell hooked into the same power source. You can only wire them up one of those two ways. Parallel supples the same voltage to both cells. In a series circuit the voltage is divided equally among the cells in the circuit. So a two cell circuit would have approx 6 volts accross each one.

Stratous
07-06-2008, 02:06 AM
Hello,

Maybe someone can hellp me understand.

When I look at the pic of the +- +- +- +- cell, I see it as +n nn nn n-.

When looking at the pic, the bolt at the top left coming through the box is suppling is +. The bolt at the top right is suppling the -.

If the plates are separated by non conductive spacers, how can they be + or -.

My head hurts. Someone please enlighten me!:eek:

Thanks,
-M

From the photograph, I can tell how they are wired together either.

plumabob
07-06-2008, 06:33 AM
Ok, man I must have been half asleep the last couple of days. Don't I feel like a horses arse :p:p:p
It is indeed +N NN NN NN N- I confused myself when I bolted the sets together at the ends. But results are results and this one is a winner. Apologies to all as I'm new to this. There are no + or - connections to the middle plates, just the ends. I would like for sombody else to try this setup to see if they get similar results.

PAPAFIXIT
07-06-2008, 08:50 AM
Hey Bob, that's grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat news. I was sandbaggin' untill you posted your results, now I'm ready to build.
Congratulations, great work.

Stratous
07-06-2008, 10:21 AM
Ok, man I must have been half asleep the last couple of days. Don't I feel like a horses arse :p:p:p
It is indeed +N NN NN NN N- I confused myself when I bolted the sets together at the ends. But results are results and this one is a winner. Apologies to all as I'm new to this. There are no + or - connections to the middle plates, just the ends. I would like for sombody else to try this setup to see if they get similar results.


I am not glad that you were wrong, but at the same time I am because I tried the +-+-+- configuration and know that it has heat and amp draw issues. I am glad the mistake was discovered as it would be bad for people to discover the mistake on their own. Personally you had me confused as to why your +-+-+- setup was working so well when I knew from past attempts that the configuration had limits.

plumabob
07-06-2008, 11:25 AM
Guess thats why they put erasers on pencils :):):)

h-power
07-06-2008, 12:26 PM
What concentration are you running your cell at to get 18 amps hot.....tsp/gallon?

plumabob
07-06-2008, 02:17 PM
Hi H-power,

I'm using pure Sodium Hydroxide at about 1/2 teaspoon / liter of distilled water or there abouts, could be slightly more as I'm adding it to my generator a bit at a time.

h-power
07-06-2008, 05:13 PM
Just a thought.....I noticed that your setup is hooked up to pre MAF delivery which means it's not using manifold vacuum. Do you suppose that the gas production would increase if you were hooked in on the other side of the throttle plate? It could be "T"ed in at the PCV hose that lies between cylinders 2 and 3.

timetowinarace
07-06-2008, 05:47 PM
When I look at the pic of the +- +- +- +- cell, I see it as +n nn nn n-.

-M

That is because we use incorrect electrical terms.

Think of a neutral plate as being positive on one side and negative on the other. It is a simple series cell. There are no actual neutral plates. We write plate configurations incorrectly and it causes confusion. We write parallel circuts as +-+-+-+- but it is incorrect. Take four batteries and put them together +-+-+-+-, it is a series cell.

I don't know who coined the words "neutral plates" but it is widely used in hho discussions throughout the internet. It isn't correct and causes confusion.

Not trying to preach, but hopeing at some point that plate configurations can be more easily described and understood. Save allot of time discussing the wiring.

plumabob
07-06-2008, 07:56 PM
Hi H-power,

I may be wrong but the fact that you are force sucking the HHO would not increase production as far as I know. It's gonna be released at it's own rate depending upon plate configuration and electrolyte mix as well as temp and voltage. If that is wrong somebody please correct me.

Bob

Stratous
07-06-2008, 08:43 PM
actually putting the unit under vaccume does help production. It takes a certain amount of energy for the bubbles to break the surface tension of the water. By applying a vaccume the surface tension is reduced allowing the bubbles to more easily rise out of the water.

h-power
07-06-2008, 10:52 PM
It's merely a 'semantics' thing. We call it neutral for lack of a better word. In effect any plate that isn't hard wired to either + or - is neutral.

Yes you are correct. One side of each is + while the other is -. Do you have a better word to name these plates? Without any name it becomes difficult to describe and discuss.

Ronjinsan
07-07-2008, 05:16 AM
Forgive my incredible stupidity but as the Neutral plates are connected in pairs this setup seems to defeat the object! Wouldnt it be the same if you put in 3 neutrals which were seperated? I still have trouble with this series/parallel thingy but I always thought that series was a pos to neg connection setup! People talk about plates in series and I cant seem to grasp that! Plates would have to be bi-polar to enable this to be true!

timetowinarace
07-07-2008, 10:43 AM
It's merely a 'semantics' thing. We call it neutral for lack of a better word. In effect any plate that isn't hard wired to either + or - is neutral.

Yes you are correct. One side of each is + while the other is -. Do you have a better word to name these plates? Without any name it becomes difficult to describe and discuss.

It's not that we designate them a 'N' plates, that word is fine. I believe it's the way we write our plate setups that cause confusion. I had an idea in another thread that may help but maybe not.

Maybe if we use () to designate each plate and a 'S' (space or gap between plates) in our writing it may help.

An example of a parallel circut would be (+)S(-)S(+)S(-) rather than +-+- wich is a series circut.

An example of circut containing N plates would be (+)S(-+)S(-+)S(-) or (+)S(N)S(N)S(-)

This may only make sence to me and some may not be able to grasp it.

Ronjinsan, neutral plates are bi-polar when current is running through them. One side +, the other -.

Smith03Jetta
07-07-2008, 02:33 PM
I drew a kindergarten representation of this plate configuration. Tell me if it's correct... If so, then you have ONE positive and ONE negative plate separated by 3 pairs of Negative plates. Each pair of negative plates are connected.

Positive(Space)Neutral(Connected to)Neutral(Space)Neutral(connected to)Neutral(Space)Neutral(connected to)Neutral(Space)Negative

Is this correct?

Mr. Smith

greuvin
07-07-2008, 02:40 PM
Plumbabob,
Did you say you were using ss switch plates? Where can these be bought?

Smith03Jetta
07-07-2008, 04:13 PM
I think he is using SS plates (Light Switch covers) from Home Depot or Lowes. Depending on how many you want to buy, you may have to go to several different stores to get what you need.

You can use them as the come out of the wrapper or you can hammer them flat before you set up your generator.

SS Light Switch covers cost about $1.59 each where I live in Georgia.

Instead of using light switch covers, I would recommend going to a sheetmetal shop and having some plates cut out of 18 or 20 gauge 316 stainless if you can find a sheet metal shop that won'd rip you off. Get yourself a good drill bit set before you get started. You will need sharp bits for drilling stainless. Go slow and take your time when drilling.

Mr. Smith

greuvin
07-07-2008, 05:30 PM
I think he is using SS plates (Light Switch covers) from Home Depot or Lowes. Depending on how many you want to buy, you may have to go to several different stores to get what you need.

You can use them as the come out of the wrapper or you can hammer them flat before you set up your generator.

SS Light Switch covers cost about $1.59 each where I live in Georgia.

Instead of using light switch covers, I would recommend going to a sheetmetal shop and having some plates cut out of 18 or 20 gauge 316 stainless if you can find a sheet metal shop that won'd rip you off. Get yourself a good drill bit set before you get started. You will need sharp bits for drilling stainless. Go slow and take your time when drilling.

Mr. Smith


Yes, I thought the outlet covers were the ones to use. However, in the pic, the plates look too long to be outlet covers.

I found outlet covers at Home Depot for $1.59, but they are 302ss.

plumabob
07-07-2008, 06:53 PM
Those outlet covers are the one's I am using from Home Depot. I just flattened them out in my bench vise. They work perfectly fine no need to spend more. I gotta take a trip with this thing soon to see what actual mileage I'm getting.

Wako216
07-07-2008, 10:04 PM
k so looking at the setup basically theres really only three neturals but because of the way there configured they act as six, you following? check out the "kindergarden" picture on the the previous page youll see when he connects two cells basically all hes doing is making one big neutral. Im thinking this is how he can run so many neutral plates with out running out of voltage now that hes running five cells... k well i was just thinking out loud but id be curious to see if the spacing between the neutrals was uniform but the connections were kept the same.

troymacdonald
07-07-2008, 11:06 PM
I like the idea of plumbabob's set up and I'll pull mine out this week and give it a try. It looks as if we are using the same electrical box.

As of right now I'm using the following 13 plate set:

-nn+nn-nn+nn-

I know the use of the "n" is in question, and thats fine, sooner or later a standard will develope. The reason for two "n's" between the charged plates is I know that the so-called neutral plates actually assume the charge of the nearest plate next to it.

So far this set up is producing decent bubbles in my little bubbler bottler. But after driving for about 20 minutes or so I noticed that water in my bubbler had either evaporated or - heaven forbid- was sucked into my engine. I doubt the later because as I sat and watched the process in my driveway I didn't notice any draw into the engine from the bubbler (aside from the gas that is)

I'm running the HHO intake into the airlfow after my MAF sensor and right infront of the throttle plate. Before I keep screwing around with plate config I want to get my EFIE built and installed.

Ronjinsan
07-08-2008, 03:12 AM
Its impossible for a single plate to be positive on one side and negative on the other!

greuvin
07-08-2008, 08:59 AM
Those outlet covers are the one's I am using from Home Depot. I just flattened them out in my bench vise. They work perfectly fine no need to spend more. I gotta take a trip with this thing soon to see what actual mileage I'm getting.

Did HD also have the ss nuts and bolts?

lou
07-08-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm in Awe!! :eek:

plumabob
07-08-2008, 09:28 AM
Yes they did have the SS hardware but not the nylon, Found that at Ace hardware.

Smith03Jetta
07-08-2008, 09:41 AM
The HD plates come with some small cheap SS screws. You will need to get some nuts... Hey, that's funny....

Mr. Smith

lou
07-08-2008, 09:46 AM
I'm new so forgive me.....let me see if I'm understanding this concept, my minds eye is seeing a series of honeycombed SS cylinders one 1/4" smaller than the last. Say bout 5-7 I don't know, then slip into HD pump up chem sprayer. Hook up power and electrolytes and go. It's just something I can't get out of my head right now.

timetowinarace
07-08-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm new so forgive me.....let me see if I'm understanding this concept, my minds eye is seeing a series of honeycombed SS cylinders one 1/4" smaller than the last. Say bout 5-7 I don't know, then slip into HD pump up chem sprayer. Hook up power and electrolytes and go. It's just something I can't get out of my head right now.

Try it. that's how we all learn from each other.

Wako216
07-08-2008, 03:18 PM
sounds good lots of surface area nice container, id say go for it brother

Smith03Jetta
07-08-2008, 03:31 PM
Pump up sprayer? I've got one of those things that I use to kill weeds in my yard. How will you seal the container once you take the pumper plunger out to make room for your electrodes?

Mr. Smith

lou
07-08-2008, 04:34 PM
Pump up sprayer? I've got one of those things that I use to kill weeds in my yard. How will you seal the container once you take the pumper plunger out to make room for your electrodes?

Mr. Smith

I would think the plunger will separate from the cap. I have a few laying around from when I applied my chems with the pump ups. I know I've got those sprayers very hot say around 160-180 degrees it can handle the heat . that's why it entered my mind initially that and got a small pile of them :D

Smith03Jetta
07-08-2008, 04:36 PM
Maybe it will work. They are pretty tough.

lou
07-08-2008, 04:47 PM
In all honesty I hadn't got to that stage (consideration of the cap) :D this is very exciting! Thanks for making me think.

Wako216
07-08-2008, 05:36 PM
HEY PLUMBOB can i have a final conclusion? yay or nay? how hot is she getting have to tried getting rid of the space between the sets and still keeping them linked together? and final amp and output, Im liking all youve said so far just wanted to make sure its still all good before i start building one... alll the best buddy

plumabob
07-08-2008, 08:32 PM
The answer is a resounding YES. I'm running 5 sets of 2 plates and keeping the space. At least 1.2 LPM and no more the 18-19 amps on the hottest day after a couple of hours. I will be putting on alot more miles in the next few days so I should have an update on MPG's. But I would definitely recommend trying this setup exactly as you see.

Bob

Smith03Jetta
07-09-2008, 01:05 AM
I built an identical HHO generator tonight. Photos tomorrow. Got to pick up some Sodium Hydroxide and then I'll test it.

Photos are now posted on my thread...

David Hamilton
07-09-2008, 11:15 PM
Hey Plum are you doing any video of your setup,it sounds like
you are on to a good system here.

plumabob
07-10-2008, 05:30 AM
No vids sorry

timetowinarace
07-10-2008, 11:45 AM
The setup is the same concept as the Smack's design. Only there is more space between the physicly connected neutrals. It stops unwanted current loss from bypassing the plates. Add an extra SS nut between the physicly connected N's in the Smack design to get the same effect.

rmptr
07-11-2008, 12:22 AM
ttwr...

and that's the prob with Smack for experimenting...
...Limited room within that tube.

I think Plumabob should go with the 6x6x6 box for more electrolyte.

Then the next step is to go series/parallel like Stratous.

Would be great if we all had kool material for cell cases like stratous!

Best

dennis13030
07-11-2008, 01:14 AM
Would be great if we all had kool material for cell cases like stratous!



Check this out

http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/Lexan_Clear_Polycarbonate_Sheet

I like this one

Clear Lexan Polycarbonate Sheet 3/8" X 24" X 48" Clear Sheet
Item ID: PCCLR0.375AM24X48
3/8" X 24" X 48" Clear Makrolon Tuffak Lexan Polycarbonate AM
Item Weight: 17.6 lb
Quantity Price:
1...............5............10
$122.63......$106.76...$93.78

This is good to

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=68&product%5Fid=30825

Dewayne
07-11-2008, 07:25 PM
I want to add my two cents about plate polarity

Plates DO NOT have a + and a - side. If a plate is connected to a + voltage source the entire plate is + and vice versa with - voltage plate. The "N"
plate would be a natural plate. That is one that is not connected to any voltage source.

I have read that "N" plates can be installed between plates to help reduce contamination on the +/- plates.

I have just started research h,h,o so I'm go to have a lot of questions. Mainly about EIFE, o2 sensors, MAP/MAF sensors and PWM. I'll post these questions later.

Stratous
07-11-2008, 09:09 PM
You can get the polycarbonate cheaper from www.onlinemetals.com if you decide you want to order from them let me know, I can get you an additional 5% off.

Example:
Lexan: 24x48 =$122.63
US plastics: 24x48 =108.68
Online Metals: 24x48 =92.48

Dewayne
07-11-2008, 09:13 PM
Being a newbie I'm sure all of these questions have been asked before, but I don't have the time to read everything that
has been posted.

Let me tell you what type of truck I am planning on trying the HHo system on. It is a 2004 Chevy Silverado, 4.8L V8 Gas, 4WD, and auto transmission.

1. How is the flow of HHo controlled when at idle/max throttle?
2. How do you adjust a PWM?
3. How do you adjust a EFIE? I think these units control the signals to the ECU from the MAP/MAF and oxygen sensors. If I'm wrong
please let me know.
4. What is the difference in performance and heat generation between wiring the plates in series, parallel, or series/parallel.
5. Has anyone tried the Stan Meyer's PWM. If so how did you make all the needed electrical connections.
6. Should I build a generator that uses just tap water or some other type. If it's some other type what should it be and is there any additional
maintenance required.
7. Are there any other electronics I should be looking at.

As you can see most of my questions are electrical in nature. If some one could get me a schematic or block diagram as to how everything
wires up it would make me feel better when I start my installation. I think my truck has o2 and MAP/MAF sensors.

PLEASE no smart arse answers. I don't need the hassle.

Stratous
07-11-2008, 09:32 PM
Being a newbie I'm sure all of these questions have been asked before, but I don't have the time to read everything that
has been posted.

Let me tell you what type of truck I am planning on trying the HHo system on. It is a 2004 Chevy Silverado, 4.8L V8 Gas, 4WD, and auto transmission.

1. How is the flow of HHo controlled when at idle/max throttle?
2. How do you adjust a PWM?
3. How do you adjust a EFIE? I think these units control the signals to the ECU from the MAP/MAF and oxygen sensors. If I'm wrong
please let me know.
4. What is the difference in performance and heat generation between wiring the plates in series, parallel, or series/parallel.
5. Has anyone tried the Stan Meyer's PWM. If so how did you make all the needed electrical connections.
6. Should I build a generator that uses just tap water or some other type. If it's some other type what should it be and is there any additional
maintenance required.
7. Are there any other electronics I should be looking at.

As you can see most of my questions are electrical in nature. If some one could get me a schematic or block diagram as to how everything
wires up it would make me feel better when I start my installation. I think my truck has o2 and MAP/MAF sensors.

PLEASE no smart arse answers. I don't need the hassle.

I will answer a question or two, like you I am too busy to answer everyones questions when the answered are already written.

1.Currently most people just let the vacuum or partial vacuum draw the hho out of the generator as needed.
4. If your not concerned about heat or the amount of amps pulled and you want a cell that will produce alot of HHO, the you run 2 or more cells in parallel.
If you are concerned about heat and amp draw, then run 2 or more cells in series. It wont produce as much HHO, but it will run for a long time with less heat creation.

There are more detailed discussions in the forums.

Dewayne
07-11-2008, 10:21 PM
Plum, are you using single or double switch switch plates?

Robahr24
07-11-2008, 11:00 PM
My jeep is gonna be getting a 200amp alternator with 2 optima batteries. So does this mean that I can run higher amps way above 30 amps? Or is the reason people don't run more than that is because at that amount of current the hho gets way to hot and everything starts to melt?

Stratous
07-11-2008, 11:24 PM
You can run more than 30 amps if your electrolysis unit is very large. If you run a normal size, then it will melt unless you have a way to cool the electrolyte fluid.

Dewayne
07-11-2008, 11:44 PM
Another newbie question.

Has anyone built a cavity that has cells wired in series/parallel?

What I'm trying to discribe is 3 sets of cells in parallel going off to 3 sets of cells in series.

I'm wondering if it would give you a good output off of the parallel cells while
have some cooling and output from the series cells.

jlind
07-12-2008, 12:40 AM
The actual current you can draw from your alternator battery configuation will depend on the load present. Lights, ignition accessorys etc. Add those up. Then if your Alternator is 100% duty cycle and has the cooling it will need you can simply subtract the load ubove from your alternator capacity and get a figure for the remainder. For example: Say your using 40Amps to run your vehical with everything you need on. 200A - 40A = 160A. Most generation units like your alterator have a peek and normal operating range. So you need to verify the ability of the unit you plan to run. You may need to derate it for safe operation. Also With any load you wish to run, be sure to use an wire of proper guage and type for your application. Don't guess at this. There is information on the net about gauge versus Amp load. Also place a current interuptor ie Fuse as close to the battery or power source as possible. If you should suffer a short in the wire say to chassis. The fuse may save you. Large wires and lots of current can do real damage. An example is an arc welder. You can burn a hole through your frame with one.

That should give you somethin to ponder.

Stratous
07-12-2008, 01:15 AM
Another newbie question.

Has anyone built a cavity that has cells wired in series/parallel?

What I'm trying to discribe is 3 sets of cells in parallel going off to 3 sets of cells in series.

I'm wondering if it would give you a good output off of the parallel cells while
have some cooling and output from the series cells.

I am currently using a cell like your describing. see this thread. http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=40

jlind
07-12-2008, 01:40 AM
I have done some tests with differing plate confiurations. This is what I have learned.

Connecting 12v to

1) two plates (+) (-) spaced 1/8in yields Hi current lots of waste in heat. Maybe even boiling the water between plates? The large voltage drop (12V) seems to waste a lot of energy as heat.

Adding nuetral plates.
2) (+) n (-) Still lots of heat. Voltage drop between plates (6v)
3) (+) n n n n (-) Way lower heat. Voltage drop between plates (2.4v)

4) Wrap electrical tape around plate bundle covering all but a gap at the top and bottom. Current goes way down. There is apparently a large amount of leakage (lose) of useable current.

Heat is a real problem and if to high will basicly evaporate your water rather rapidly. That's not what we want. We want the gases produced from the water. Keep in mind you don't need to be at 212 degrees to loose water rapidly. Also the idea of applying a vacuum to the process is problematic. Just like going to the mountians where the presure is less and water will boil at lower temps. So by applying a vacuum to the process you will need to lower your operating temperature. To much vacuum and you will boil water away at room temp. So running the plumbing to the intake plenum may not be the best for the gasser crowd. Maybe thats why some use a vent on the cell.

The unit being described here is unique in the implementation of the plate connections. I have not seen this slit and bend method. I Like it. It also addresses the issue of the exposing connections to the HHO gas. One spark from a poor connection and all your work will be well, not worth much. But by submerging the connections the potential for igniting is reduced. The connections are also cooled by the water. The wide spacing is achieving the same thing the tape did in my own testing. Reducing the leakage of stray current. This unit appears to achieve good output with out the complexity of building a Poly carbinate or plexi glass unit with partitions to control leakage loses.

I may have to try the layout myself.

Good work! And thanks for sharing.


This is why so many different minds at work are a good thing. Brain storming is what I call it. Everyone thinks a bit different. Good Stuf.

jlind
07-12-2008, 01:55 AM
Stratous

What was your milage before the HHO?

Perhaps you could add that to your signature.

I have read somewhere that a fellow put an eletronic device on the turbo pressure sensor to fool the computer into reducing fueling. Says he got some really good mpg from it. In combination with the HHO. Just something to look into for us oil burners.

admin
07-12-2008, 05:41 AM
So that housing is PVC electrical housing used for junction boxes and the likes? If I remember correctly they are designed for outdoors, so they have a big rubber gasket around the lid that screws onto the top of it? Does it offer a good seal? (Can you plug one end and blow into the other as hard as you can, and have no leakage?)

This is always my fear with using HHO... If you have significant leakage for any reason, you are basically emitting a small amount of explosive gas into your engine compartment, which is almost all heat sources!

I guess my questions are;

-How are you metering gas output?
-what electrolyte, how much water?
-How many amps being drawn to produce that rate of gas?
-What is the exact config you're using with your car (cell directly into engine? bubbler in between? etc.)
- Any idea of MPG gains?

I always thought that neutrals were kind of pointless, but I'll guess this would prove it. My latest design uses the whole container as the positive, and plates in the middle as the negative. Gave some decent results! Poor seal though, doesn't handle very many PSI without leaking, so had to abandon for now.

plumabob
07-12-2008, 06:07 AM
Hi,

I am not metering output. I'm using app 1 1/2 liters of water with about 1 1/2 tsp of NaHO. Initially I'm pulling about 13-14 amps and after a couple of hours driving it maxes out at app 18-20. I was using a bubbler but have since removed it. It's hooked up into my air filter box. It's producing about 1-1.2 LPM. I am using a map Enhancer but I may have to go with an O2 enhancer. There is about a 3-4 MPG gain right now but thats with a lot of city driving.

admin
07-12-2008, 06:36 AM
You're using Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) as a electrolyte? Isn't that incredibly dangerous to work with? How do you refill the generator once the water is gone, out of interest?

Do you have a water input tube attached to a tank somewhere?

Video of the whole setup running would clear up a lot of questions :) (Most digital cameras do it now).

Thx

-M

Smith03Jetta
07-12-2008, 09:56 AM
I don't think he has video capability. I built one just like his. I have lots of photos and a video of output on Youtube on my thread. I will make some more videos soon. If you look at mine, you are practically looking at mine.

timetowinarace
07-12-2008, 10:11 AM
I have read somewhere that a fellow put an eletronic device on the turbo pressure sensor to fool the computer into reducing fueling. Says he got some really good mpg from it. In combination with the HHO. Just something to look into for us oil burners.

Boost foolers are popular in the performance diesel truck world. They do not reduce fueling, they increase boost pressure by fooling the computer into keeping the wastegate closed. It will shorten the life of the turbo.

Smith03Jetta
07-12-2008, 10:24 AM
I know a little something about the Turbo Boost waste gate as well. The Turbo's need to operate under a certain pressure from the exhaust. If you restrict anything in the turbo, you instantly increase it's operating pressure (Boost) and temperature. That's why a lot of turbo racers have a turbo dump valve to release the pressure when they are not in the throttle. It helps in the short term and sounds cool too but the up and down extremes in temperature will eventually make the turbo go out prematurely.

timetowinarace
07-12-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm currently in the process of building a new unit. It will be 4 to 6 cells wired in series, each cell with four plates in parallel, all in a 5 gallon open bath container. The goal is good hho production for mostly in vehicle demonstration purposes. The container is a seamless hexagonal clear plastic fish tank 2 w/lexan lid. I'm hoping I can pour the amps to it for a nice visual effect.

jlind
07-12-2008, 01:18 PM
Boost foolers are popular in the performance diesel truck world. They do not reduce fueling, they increase boost pressure by fooling the computer into keeping the wastegate closed. It will shorten the life of the turbo.

That is correct. If you make the sensor see less boost the computer will fuel more. Normally when the boost rises to unsafe levels the computer will back off the fueling to lower the exhaust temp and boost will follow to maintain it at a safe level. performance parts will regulate that presure just like the regulator on your air compressor. Regulating the pressure to a lower level as seen by the sensor allows the fueling to continue above the "Safe Zone" and produce more power at the cost of more fuel, more boost and heat and in some cases possible parts. With the proper turbo and additional fuel a diesel cam produce quite a bit more power. But thats not what we are trying to do. We need to reduce the amount of fuel used.

The unit I speak of is not a pressure regulator on the pressure line to the sensor. It is electronic in nature. And ment to reduce fueling. Less Fuel for better mpg. Works on par with messing with the O2 sensors to alter the fuel ratio in a gasoline injected engine.

Hope that is clearer.

The truck was showing great mpg. In the 50 mpg range. This was monitored via the trucks computer using a scan gauge meter. Was it real?

I don't know. But that's why we are here doing experiments. To prove or disprove. I think I here that star trek music and voice " to go where no man has gone before. " and possibly do some good on the way.
At the very least save some money and be able to drive our vehicles more than once in a while. Or take out a loan to do so.

Robahr24
07-12-2008, 08:29 PM
Im confused, I always thought that you can't have current running in contact with the + or - plates or can you. In plumabob's setup the current goes from the + (doesn't touch the -) but there is a bolt that goes from the - to the next positive and so on and so forth. Am I right on whats going on? I just can't grasp the idea of how the current is going thru.

countryboy18
07-15-2008, 01:41 PM
in plumabob setup is it nessary to connect all of the neutral plates together can they just sit there and not touch anything or are they connect so that you get more HHO gass? sorry i am lost on that part.

Smith03Jetta
07-15-2008, 03:26 PM
I hope the following is a complete clarification of how the Plumabob style cell works.

The positive plate does not touch any other plates.

The negative plate does not touch any other plates

Every other neutral plate touches.

I've posted some high resolution photos on my thread of the Plumabob style layout. If you look you will understand.

Here's the path of the current as simply as I can put it.

The electrical current enters the cell on the NEGATIVE plate (1). (Yes, I said Negative) Explanation at bottom of message...

The current jumps through the water from plate(1) to the first neutral plate(2).

Plate(2) and plate(3) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate (2) to plate (3) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(3) to the next neutral plate(4).

Plate(4) and plate(5) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(4) to plate(5) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(5) to the next neutral plate(6).

Plate(6) and plate(7) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(6) to plate(7) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(7) to the next neutral plate(8).

Plate(8) and plate(9) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(8) to plate(9) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(9) to the POSITIVE plate. The current then exits the cell and makes its way back to Positive Post of the Battery or electrical supply.

END OF EXPLANATION...

Now for the electrical purists, electricity (Electrons in an excited state) does not actually travel from Positive polarity to Negative polarity. Electricity actually travels through a wire from Negative to Positive. This can be witnessed by watching a lightning storm. You can see electrical feelers rise from trees and other things on the ground. The feeler that reaches the highest makes contact with the positively charged air. The electrical circuit is then complete and the secondary lightning strike occurs. It appears to be coming down out of the sky but it's actually arcing up into the sky.

When a metal wire is connected across the two terminals of a DC voltage source such as a battery, the source places an electric field across the conductor. The moment contact is made, the free electrons of the conductor are forced to drift toward the positive terminal under the influence of this field. The free electrons are therefore the current carrier in a typical solid conductor. For an electric current of 1 ampere, 1 coulomb of electric charge (which consists of about 6.242 × 10 "to the 18th power" electrons) drifts every second through any imaginary plane toward the positive post.

Now for an understanding of Conventional Current:

Conventional current was defined early in the history of electrical science as a flow of positive charge. In solid metals, like wires, the positive charge carriers are immobile, and only the negatively charged electrons flow. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron current is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.

In other conductive materials, the electric current is due to the flow of charged particles in both directions at the same time. Electric currents in electrolytes are flows of electrically charged atoms (ions), which exist in both positive and negative varieties. For example, an electrochemical cell may be constructed with Sodium Chloride or another electrolyte on one side of a membrane and pure water on the other. The membrane lets the positive sodium ions pass, but not the negative chlorine ions, so a net current results. Electric currents in plasma are flows of electrons as well as positive and negative ions. In ice and in certain solid electrolytes, flowing protons constitute the electric current. To simplify this situation, the original definition of conventional current still stands.


The previous paragraph also explains why positively charged Hydrogen atoms (+ions) are attracted to the negative plate and negatively charged Oxygen atoms (-ions) are attracted to positive plate in our cells. I also hope to ultimately answers the question as to whether the bubbles are making the movement in the water as they float to the top or whether the hydrogen and oxygen atoms are making the water move as they travel to their respective plates.

The answer is: ALL OF THE ABOVE... The Hydrogen ions cause a water current flowing to the Negative plate. The Oxygen ions cause a water current flowing to the positive plate. The bubbles cause an upward current as they are eventually forced to float to the surface because of the displacement pressure of the water. This is witnessed because more bubbles are seen in top of the cell vs bottom of the cell. Bubbles tend to always float toward the surface.


I are smart?

ELECTR0N3RD
07-15-2008, 03:43 PM
I hope the following is a complete clarification of how the Plumabob style cell works.

The positive plate does not touch any other plates.

The negative plate does not touch any other plates

Every other neutral plate touches.

I've posted some high resolution photos on my thread of the Plumabob style layout. If you look you will understand.

Here's the path of the current as simply as I can put it.

The electrical current enters the cell on the NEGATIVE plate (1). (Yes, I said Negative) Explanation at bottom of message...

The current jumps through the water from plate(1) to the first neutral plate(2).

Plate(2) and plate(3) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate (2) to plate (3) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(3) to the next neutral plate(4).

Plate(4) and plate(5) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(4) to plate(5) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(5) to the next neutral plate(6).

Plate(6) and plate(7) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(6) to plate(7) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(7) to the next neutral plate(8).

Plate(8) and plate(9) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(8) to plate(9) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(9) to the POSITIVE plate. The current then exits the cell and makes its way back to Positive Post of the Battery or electrical supply.

END OF EXPLANATION...

Now for the electrical purists, electricity (Electrons in an excited state) does not actually travel from Positive polarity to Negative polarity. Electricity actually travels through a wire from Negative to Positive. This can be witnessed by watching a lightning storm. You can see electrical feelers rise from trees and other things on the ground. The feeler that reaches the highest makes contact with the positively charged air. The electrical circuit is then complete and the secondary lightning strike occurs. It appears to be coming down out of the sky but it's actually arcing up into the sky.

When a metal wire is connected across the two terminals of a DC voltage source such as a battery, the source places an electric field across the conductor. The moment contact is made, the free electrons of the conductor are forced to drift toward the positive terminal under the influence of this field. The free electrons are therefore the current carrier in a typical solid conductor. For an electric current of 1 ampere, 1 coulomb of electric charge (which consists of about 6.242 × 10 "to the 18th power" electrons) drifts every second through any imaginary plane toward the positive post.

Now for an understanding of Conventional Current:

Conventional current was defined early in the history of electrical science as a flow of positive charge. In solid metals, like wires, the positive charge carriers are immobile, and only the negatively charged electrons flow. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron current is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.

In other conductive materials, the electric current is due to the flow of charged particles in both directions at the same time. Electric currents in electrolytes are flows of electrically charged atoms (ions), which exist in both positive and negative varieties. For example, an electrochemical cell may be constructed with Sodium Chloride or another electrolyte on one side of a membrane and pure water on the other. The membrane lets the positive sodium ions pass, but not the negative chlorine ions, so a net current results. Electric currents in plasma are flows of electrons as well as positive and negative ions. In ice and in certain solid electrolytes, flowing protons constitute the electric current. To simplify this situation, the original definition of conventional current still stands.

I are smart?

You are correct, see Benjamin Franklin f-ed up, and forever has confused us all, some like to use the old "true" electrical direction of neg to pos, but most including myself and most schematics use conventional to make things a little more clear,-thanks Benjamin Franklin lol

Smith03Jetta
07-15-2008, 05:01 PM
Old Ben:)

The thing is... If you think of how electricity works for REAL, you can better understand how the electrolysis happens in our plate configurations.

countryboy18
07-15-2008, 07:03 PM
WOW!!! is all i have to say about that story you told about that cells configuration. if only every cells plans were that easy to understand then title of this forum is right " trying to facilitate the production of HHO for the COMMON FOLK!!!"

shovel52
07-15-2008, 09:25 PM
Thanks plumabob I have been thinking about trying that design because every thing I have tried so far has been wired together in parallell this seems to be more efficient, Much more efficient, like you discovered. Here is a photo of the cell using 8 stainless dogfood bowls.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/shovel52/DCAM0026.jpg


At 10 amps, this thing will fill a 1 liter bottle in 90 seconds. At 17 amps it will fill the bottle in 45 seconds , thats 1.25 liters a min. at atmospheric pressure. I am going to add another 6 plates tomorrow,
and then work on a happy medium as far as current. Total cost of the unit
is $12. total time 3 hours. My container is a 5 gallon bucket that sits in the back of my truck, and the cell operates under vacuum at all times. More gas is created under vacuum. I havn,t driven far enough to check new mpg yet but up from .5 liters per min at 25 amps to this, bound to get something.

Stratous
07-15-2008, 11:00 PM
Stratous

What was your milage before the HHO?

Perhaps you could add that to your signature.

I have read somewhere that a fellow put an eletronic device on the turbo pressure sensor to fool the computer into reducing fueling. Says he got some really good mpg from it. In combination with the HHO. Just something to look into for us oil burners.


I was getting 17 mpg, currently I am getting 24 in town. Havent tested it on the highway yet. Some day I will get my good cells installed in my truck. That turbo device sounds like a good idea. Hope you can remember where you read it at.

brotherdoc
07-19-2008, 02:02 PM
How about resistor plates instead of neutral plates? They are there to create a voltage drop.


It's merely a 'semantics' thing. We call it neutral for lack of a better word. In effect any plate that isn't hard wired to either + or - is neutral.

Yes you are correct. One side of each is + while the other is -. Do you have a better word to name these plates? Without any name it becomes difficult to describe and discuss.

dennis13030
07-19-2008, 09:28 PM
How about resistor plates instead of neutral plates? They are there to create a voltage drop.

In line resistors will reduce the overall current and create a voltage drop. The same amount of power is used(wasted as heat from the resistor) even though you will not see the benefit of gas production. To reduce the current you can do one of to things. 1) add neutral plates or 2) reduce the amount of chemical in the water.

plumabob
07-20-2008, 06:18 AM
OK got a video finally of my setup. I had to replace the electrical case as I noticed some cracking at the screw holes near the top. I had this lexan case made about 5-6 years ago to encase a metal detector box to keep it waterproof when in the water. I never thought I would use it again and almost dumped it a few times. It was very close to the size box I was using so my plate set fit perfectly. All I had to do was to seal off the opening in the top. This is pretty cool because you can really see whats going on. I have been running it for 2 weeks with no leaks. It's pushing 1 LPM or more at about 20 amps max on the hottest day. Still only getting about a 15% mpg increase. I guess I'm gonna have to buy an O2 enhancer as thats the only thing left I haven't tried. Was hoping to see some more positive results somewhere on another corolla but I have not so I guess it's up to me to spend the bread and try it myself. Thanks to those with your kind words. This plate setup really works well as you will see in my vid.

Vid is on Youtube under COROLLA HHO

Stratous
07-20-2008, 10:23 AM
Nice setup plumbob, why you still have your ammeter hooked up backwards? lol

plumabob
07-20-2008, 11:10 AM
Damn I never realized it. Not too observant I guess. You'll be happy to know I reversed the connections. So now it reads "normal" even though I am not!!! LOL :) :) :)

daveczrn
07-20-2008, 11:21 AM
just so its easier for the members here.

glad to see your back plumabob.

and if you didn't see. Smith is having fun with your design.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/A57FHRXXiEU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/A57FHRXXiEU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

plumabob
07-20-2008, 11:42 AM
Thanks Dave! If I knew how to stick it in there I would have. This was my first Youtube attempt!

Thanks again

Bob

daveczrn
07-20-2008, 01:50 PM
if you look at the youtube page you will see on the right hand side there is a box that says embed. you have to copy everything in the embed box and just post it. no img tag or link. just post it and it comes up.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/9d5379e7.jpg

plumabob
07-20-2008, 08:45 PM
Well that ends that. Heard a POP driving home and saw my amp meter zero out....NOT GOOD! Popped the hood and sure enough the entire side of my box split open and drained my electrolyte. I knew this was temporary but I was hoping for a bit longer.....:) :) :) Now to find a replacement!

PAPAFIXIT
07-21-2008, 07:14 AM
Hey PLUMABOB !!!
I've been away for a while, and it's sure good to see that you have rejoined the conversation. Sorry your unit went krunch, you might consider installing a heat shield on the bottom and engine side of the new one, ( worth a try ).

plumabob
07-21-2008, 08:07 AM
Look at this it went BOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!! Just had a chance to look at it. More then a crack obviously. What I'm thinking now is that my gasket sealing the bolt going through the case cracked at my positive terminal draining out some electrolyte. This in turn made a loose connection inside from the bolt to plate setup in the box. It sparked and the rest is history. Glad it didn't blow the hood of the car off.....:D :D :D

Smith03Jetta
07-21-2008, 08:16 AM
I know of a good case.:rolleyes:

u4david
07-21-2008, 09:49 AM
Could you let me know the amps and Liter/minute.

u4david
07-21-2008, 09:55 AM
amps?liter/minute?

How much ,how much ,how much????:eek:

u4david
07-21-2008, 09:59 AM
would insulating edges in this configuration help.I di so in my multi plate configuration with neutral plates and it made 1/3 increase in performace.But would it affect this configuration any?

I just heated up the edges of the plates and rested them on strip of plastic from water jucg.I worked for while then it pealed off but enough to test it out.

Now i ordered liquid tape and i go from there

u4david
07-21-2008, 10:03 AM
wonder what would configuration:
+_space_+space+_space.......did in this configuration

daveczrn
07-21-2008, 10:11 AM
u4david.... The configuration that you just posted would creat slightly more HHO than plumabobs but heat would be much higher as well.

u4david
07-22-2008, 11:49 PM
- when you got your 5 cell 10 plate try experimenting.

se what happened when you just drop some plastic separators between each cell.

And other time just drop neutral plate there and see what is going on.
I got acrylic multi cell on my mind and like to see if separators or neutrals will do better.

nadeem5476
07-25-2008, 03:45 AM
tell us how much increase you got in MPG ? if installing in the car

homersimpson30
07-27-2008, 09:49 PM
im seeing + left NNNNNN - right. I dont get it. how is it +-+-+-

double it
07-28-2008, 12:57 AM
Maybe this will help some of you in understanding the neutral plate.

If the plate at one end has 12 volts + and the plate at the other end is negative and there is 0 current, you have potential only. its like a hose with pressure and no flow. This is why voltage is a measurement of pressure. When we add plates in between the two ends there is a voltage drop based on the number of plates when their is current (amps) flowing, and this can be measured with a volt meter. The plates are not +on one side and negative on the other. Its just that the potential is trying to be in a neutral state. Example: if three plates (one divider) the center plate would measure 6 volts and if 5 plates each plate would be 3 volts. The first being 12, and the second being 9, then 6, 3, 0.

Going way back to my physics classes, I think that 1.2 volts per plate will generate the most output and the least amount of heat ( lower pressure and more flow) (less resistance).

I hope this helps.

I have designed a new system for running the car more like a diesel with out a throttle plate using HHO and am in the process of building the generator. I have to be able to separate the gas for this to work.

HomeGrown
07-28-2008, 08:03 AM
im seeing + left NNNNNN - right. I dont get it. how is it +-+-+-

See page 3

Robahr24
08-13-2008, 09:14 PM
So plumbobs setup is definitely what I'm gonna try and its gonna be mounted in the back of my jeep cherokee. Now, when you say 02 enhancer, are you talking about the oxygen sensor extenders or what. What kind of things should I do so the computer doesn't compensate and add more fuel?

plumabob
08-14-2008, 06:20 AM
Hi Robahr24,

I tried an o2 extender and did not see any difference on my 1997 corolla. I am currently trying an o2 EFIE that I can manually adjust my fuel mixture. The EFIE had a bad circuit board so I'm waiting to get it back. Do use my plate setup it has proven itself as a great HHO produce with no heat problems. Smitty is using my setup and loves it also! I will post the good bad and the ugly when I've had a chance to run a few tankfuls of gas.

By the way this Pelican 1150 box works great NO LEAKS, NO HEAT ISSUES, and it was only 20 bucks plus shipping!

Bob

Robahr24
08-14-2008, 07:31 AM
Do you think that one is a lot better than the junction boxes at lowes or home depot, I mean it is cheaper too. And I'm still trying to find the ss light switch covers, where did you find them? You have a picture of one before you cut it up, makes it a lot easier for me to find them. Also, is there a certain type of hose I should use. I want to run this in the back of my jeep s. I might just try two of these boxes, that would be like 2.5LPM!!! Last, what EFIE are you using? Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to get his right and be on my way. I know I will be playing around with it, but at least try to do everything right in the beginning.

u4david
08-14-2008, 09:14 AM
-For multi cell how close to space the plates?
I'd like to build something like this (see link below)in smaller scale for my station wagons(one is diesel) to custom fit in in tools compartments.And for my work horse Isuzu rodeo.
My plates are polished 3"x8" 1mm thick.made from spatulas.
They are magnetic but I did not find any down side when using magnetic SS.-
-Is there any down side that would made me consider to switch from this non costly magnetic higly resistant to corrosion steel (better than 316l)source to some other non-magnetic ss?
-would be any advantage to make in multi cell set up each cell +-+
instead just +-.?
This way bout sides of the negative plate will produce gas.
-can anyone explain the voltage lost when sides are not insulated?
-can anyone explain what is the advantage of insulating everything submerged to prevent voltage loss.

There is definite advantage in multi plate configuration. I was able to see temperature drop when I insulated the sides with liquid tape+plastic.

I do like to use tall narrow plates.
one-minimize side surface where volatge is lost in multi-plate configuration (insulated horizontal sides and non insulated bottom and top sides when fully submerged)
two-increase flow curent of water between the plates maximizing circulation.

I guess my question is:

What si the best set up for multi-CELL configuration:
3"x8"x1mm plates.How many cells? How close the plates? How big each cell ?

http://gethydropower.com/gallery.html

plumabob
08-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Robahr24,

Do not use the junction box in Lowes or HD they will crack and warp under heat. The SS blank Switch plates are in HD or Lowes if you can't find them just ask someone. I'm using 3/8 vinyl tubing but some also use 1/4. I found the nylon tubing connectors in ACE hardware. I bought my EFIE from
fuel-saver.org

Bob

Robahr24
08-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Cool, thanks for the info. Those pelican boxes are a lot cooler looking too. You think it really matters how wide the plates are. I'm guessing yours were around 2-3 inches? I think I'm gonna use a pelican 1300 box which is a little deeper with wider plate (maybe like 4 inches), didn't know if that would increase the amps and heat or not.

Smith03Jetta
08-14-2008, 04:02 PM
I'm using a Pelican 1200 for my Jetta and a 1300 for my Touareg. I like both of them tremendously. I didn't mind shelling out a few extra bucks for the quality. I've been running the case in my Jetta now for exactly 1 month. It is working just fine with no problems whatsoever.

plumabob
08-14-2008, 04:04 PM
Hi Robahr24,

My plates measure 2 3/4 x 4 1/2. Heres a pic of the inside of my case. Notice I have the plates set at a slight angle so they stay under the bottom lip.

Smith03Jetta
08-14-2008, 04:12 PM
You show yours I'll show mine!

plumabob
08-14-2008, 04:46 PM
Lookin good Smitty!!!! Yours looks bigger then mine but I know how to use mine better.....:D :D :D

Just got my repaired o2 EFIE back this afternoon, now I can lean out my mixture some and hopefully see some of the great results I've been reading about.

sandman
08-14-2008, 04:50 PM
Hey Bob try using one more positive plate then negative. My reactors produce more HHO with the extra + plate.

Robahr24
08-14-2008, 05:28 PM
Sandman, what plate setup are you using and how many neutrals inbetween? You think doing +nnnn-nnnn+ would be better than +nnnnnnnn-?

Robahr24
08-14-2008, 05:34 PM
Smith, what kind of amperage draw are you getting and what are the dimensions of your plates?

gizzy
08-20-2008, 04:42 PM
You show yours I'll show mine!

My question is, on page 6 of 8 you are describing a complete clarification of how the Plumabob style cell works. Is the picture of what you are showing the same thing as what you are explaining on page 6?