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PAPAFIXIT
07-05-2008, 01:21 PM
I'm slightly confused as to why we would NOT want to vent a unit. I was always under the assumption that in order to extract a substance from a sealed container it must be displaced by another substance.

Stratous
07-05-2008, 04:27 PM
To extract the gas from an HHO unit does not require displacement. The gas in this case in way less dense than the water. Meaning that the gas takes up more space per weight than the water does. the 3 molecules h h o take up more space than H20. If you completely seal an HHO unit and provide no escape for the gas, the unit will eventually blow up, or the process will stop because the gas has no place to go so the bubbles just stick to the plates.

PAPAFIXIT
07-06-2008, 06:30 AM
But is it detrimental to the gas production to introduce air into the equation? It seems to me that the gas would flow at a much faster rate if the container was vented.

rmptr
07-06-2008, 01:47 PM
MOST of the information I've seen for HHO HOD cell includes a bubbler vent on the cell, itself.

Adjustable bubbler vent on top, controls air inlet connected to a tube which will allow air bubbling down near bottom of electrolyte.

Instruction says, start engine with power OFF to HOD cell, open bubbler very little just so there is at least a periodic bubble in the liquid.
Then energize the cell.
HHO production is routed from the cell to a bubbler for flash suppression before entering engine intake tract.

I'm certainly interested in any theory to the contrary.

Best

timetowinarace
07-06-2008, 02:05 PM
I've been thinking of adding a vent to mine. Just a hose connecter at the top put on the inside and a hose to the bottom of the booster. Wondering if the air bubble comming up from the bottom would help dislodge hho bubbles by making the water more turbulent. Don't know, but the idea is not my own. I seen it somewhere. Wouldn't be possible to measure output though cause air would be in the mix.

h-power
07-06-2008, 11:32 PM
If you introduce a leak (vent) to the HHO unit the HHO gas will escape through the vent instead of going through the bubbler. To prove it try opening the fill plug and watch the bubbler stop. The reason for this is the gas will take the easiest way out. The bubbler produces a resistance force the HHO gas must overcome equal to the height of the column of water in it.
Attaching the HHO production hose to a vacuum port on the intake manifold helps to overcome that force and aids in HHO production.

Omega
07-08-2008, 09:41 PM
You might be able to get away with a very small vent in your generator enclosure if you run your HHO to the air intake. If you run your HHO to a manifold vacuum connection, forget a vent; it would cause all kinds of trouble as most manifold leaks do.

Basically, I think the idea isn't very good. If it was, the "big dogs" in the HHO market would surely do it.

timetowinarace
07-08-2008, 11:21 PM
You might be able to get away with a very small vent in your generator enclosure if you run your HHO to the air intake. If you run your HHO to a manifold vacuum connection, forget a vent; it would cause all kinds of trouble as most manifold leaks do.

Basically, I think the idea isn't very good. If it was, the "big dogs" in the HHO market would surely do it.

Some do do it.

The idea is not to just put an opening at the to of the unit but run a tube from that opening to the inside bottom of the electrlyte so bubbles come up like in a fish tank. The idea is to knock the hho bubbles off the electrodes.

It's a good idea to use something to dislodge bubbles, either this or resonant frequencies or a shaker of some kind.

porkchop
07-09-2008, 05:26 PM
How about a check valve that only allows air in?(on the unit) If you had a bubbler, wouldn't that keep the manifold happy from a "vacuum leak"? Haven't really thought this through, just slung it out there for y'all.

volomike
07-09-2008, 05:45 PM
If you completely seal an HHO unit and provide no escape for the gas, the unit will eventually blow up, or the process will stop because the gas has no place to go so the bubbles just stick to the plates.

Aha. No wonder my bubblers kept ripping apart. (No joke -- I just didn't know this piece of vital information.)

So where am I to put the vent? How big of a hole? Any other special rules?

RMForbes
07-09-2008, 05:56 PM
The problem with applying vacuum to a HHO cell is that it lowers the boiling point of the electrolyte. We do not want it to boil. I added a valve between the bubbler and vacuum port on my intake to limit the vacuum to the system. I also vented the cell with a small tube that allows air to bubble up from the bottom of the cell. The vent has a one way check valve installed to prevent any water from syphoning out. I adjust the vacuum to the bubbler using the valve until I notice air being drawn into the vent and then back it off a bit. This needs only to be done at idle because that is when the vacuum is highest. I also tee off the output of the bubbler and run a hose to the intake just in front of the throttle body. Another one way check valve prevents air being sucked into the vacuum port at idle and allows HHO gas to flow into the intake when engine is operating at highway speeds and no vacuum is present.

Omega
07-09-2008, 06:59 PM
Aha. No wonder my bubblers kept ripping apart. (No joke -- I just didn't know this piece of vital information.)

So where am I to put the vent? How big of a hole? Any other special rules?

I think you misunderstood what Stratous was saying. I think he meant if there were no openings at all in an HHO generator then it would explode. If you are feeding HHO gas to a vacuum line or intake, your generator IS NOT sealed.

Your bubblers are giving up because they aren't able to handle the vacuum from the manifold. They would hold up if you ran your HHO line to the intake or if they were made from stouter material.

Stratous
07-09-2008, 07:12 PM
I hope omega read this before he started drilling vent holes. I certainly didnt intend for my post to be misleading in anyway.

Omega
07-09-2008, 11:25 PM
I hope omega read this before he started drilling vent holes. I certainly didnt intend for my post to be misleading in anyway.

I knew what you meant (I think:)) I think volomike might have misunderstood.

Adding a vent just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It seems that all it would accomplish is diluting the HHO and causing a vacuum leak. From watching Zero Fossil Fuels and others on YouTube, it would seem important to seal the unit well. I've made sure that my generator and bubbler don't leak so that the unit doesn't draw in air. I had a VW bug once that had a manifold leak and it ran so badly it was almost undriveable. It seems like the same condition could occur from a vented HHO enclosure.

I still haven't seen any of the major dudes adding vents; if someone knows of one, put up a link....

rmptr
07-10-2008, 02:53 AM
Well, it's the water4gas that advises the bubbler on the cell...

...and someone just said it was water4gas that is advising to inject hho into fuel line?

I'm getting confused now!

I think a bubbler on a cell is a good idea.
It should be adjusted to minimum flow, perhaps.

AND there should be a bubbler of the type used to prevent backflash into the cell, also.

Best

lou
07-10-2008, 03:16 AM
A friend introduced my to HHO through use of the water4gas method. I've posted some pics and video around here somewhere. The SS plate model really have my interest.
The first we built (he built) I watched with skepticism. :o
Has a tube to the bottom to introduce air I believe to dislodge the HHO another tube out the top to a jar of water. :confused: Anyway it's been one weird journey from there.

Ronjinsan
07-10-2008, 09:41 AM
OK lets sum up....closed container, what do we want out of it? Gas produced by splitting the water molecule! Right so far? Apply a vacuum.....gas is sucked out, if there are no leaks....ONLY gas will be sucked out. Vacuum is constant so it doesnt make any difference. Now....add vent and we introduce air to the container which lowers the constant vacuum at the manifold due to there being a leak! Any takers??:D

Omega
07-10-2008, 05:00 PM
OK lets sum up....closed container, what do we want out of it? Gas produced by splitting the water molecule! Right so far? Apply a vacuum.....gas is sucked out, if there are no leaks....ONLY gas will be sucked out. Vacuum is constant so it doesnt make any difference. Now....add vent and we introduce air to the container which lowers the constant vacuum at the manifold due to there being a leak! Any takers??:D

I'll go for that! Exactly! :)

Omega
07-10-2008, 05:18 PM
Well, it's the water4gas that advises the bubbler on the cell...

...and someone just said it was water4gas that is advising to inject hho into fuel line?

I'm getting confused now!

I think a bubbler on a cell is a good idea.
It should be adjusted to minimum flow, perhaps.

AND there should be a bubbler of the type used to prevent backflash into the cell, also.

Best

I just checked the Water4Gas info and BINGO, you are right, they show what they call a "Bubbler Cap" although there is no water to bubble through.

The Water4Gas people have done a lot of good work in putting together an (expensive!) manual. But, I think they are off the mark in putting a "leak valve" in the HHO generator enclosure. It just doesn't make good engineering sense.

In addition to the "leak valve", they also recommend at least 4 feet of tube between the HHO enclosure and the manifold vacuum attaching point. I think they advise that because the plastic lid they use most likely won't hold up to the vacuum that the engine will subject it to. The best way to deal with this is to make a 1/8" thick polycarbonate (Lexan) stiffener to go over the plastic lid. This will keep the lid from breaking under vacuum, so you don't need to relieve the vacuum with a "leak valve".

It will be interesting to see how far HHO applications evolve this year. It's really great fun working the concept and hardware (as long as things go well...!)

justaguy
07-10-2008, 09:25 PM
I have seen generators with a one way check valve on the top letting air in. Most don't have it but it seems like it would help. It looks like if you had air (gas) going out air would have to be coming in. I guess then the air is separated from the water by the electrolyte.

Stratous
07-10-2008, 10:06 PM
I have seen generators with a one way check valve on the top letting air in. Most don't have it but it seems like it would help. It looks like if you had air (gas) going out air would have to be coming in. I guess then the air is separated from the water by the electrolyte.

The idea is valid if your not running on manifold vacuum. If your going to run your HHO to your air box or just before the throttle body, then the valve wont cause an air leak. The unit will still have partial vacuum to draw the hho out. It is not a bad idea really as long as you dont run manifold vacuum that way.

rmptr
07-10-2008, 10:48 PM
Apparently my betters:) feel it is un-needed...

I am of the opinion the vacuum should be relieved at least to some minor extent with a port to atmospheric.

I am unable to prove it's value.

...well, other than saying a lean mix burns cleaner...

Best