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Boltazar
07-05-2008, 03:38 PM
I just found this forum last night, it's great that so many people believe in this. I plan on being here, sharing and learning till I get it right

Throughout my reading here, I can't help saying, that so many people aren't using the same standards for reporting results. Weather it's plate size, number of plates, spacing of plates or space inbetween plates,electrolite composition, liters per min. of HHO produced, amps at liters per min, temp at amps. Theres just to many varables. Tell all the facts about your research. Yup, thats what it is research and since were sharing we need to replicate results accurately.

My reason for being here is to increse the mpg of my 5.3 liter GMC.

I've Googled HHO and read everything I could find. My opinion is that a v8 engine will need about 2-3 liters of HHO per min to reduce gasoilne consumption. From what I can see there in no limit to how much HHO an engine will run on, weather it's a 4 or 8 cylinder engine.

PWM's: Pulse width modulators are necessary when you get up to the higher amp ratings. HHO production at the 2-3 liter level requires higher amps and or seried cells to produce it. Higher generator temps are bad.

Fuel injected engines need oxygen sensor tweeking. Not just to keep the computer from enriching the gasoline to oxygen level of the exhaust but to reduce the gasoline input overall. I don't think it should be thought of as reducing the gasoline to meet the HHO production. I would want to reduce the gasoline level lower to rely on HHO more.

Those of you that don't think you need oxygen sensor tweeking aren't making enough HHO in your generators, your engine will take more and you'll get better mpg for doing it.

Last but not least the electrolites that come out of HHO generators made with stainless steel plates contains hexavaliant cromeum (i know thats spelt wrong) this is really BAD STUFF. Dispose of properly. Were here to help the enviroment not to screw it up more. Can you say nasty nasty cancers and genitic defects in your unborne children.

I'm going to start with getting 2-3 liters per min out of a generator. Lets see how long that takes.

Pete

Stratous
07-05-2008, 04:22 PM
You dont need 3 liters per minute. Not that 3 liters per minute would be bad, but its not absolutely neccessary. 1.5 LPM is good for a 5.3 liter. I run a 5.9 liter and about 1.5LPM of HHO has increased my fuel economy.

rmptr
07-05-2008, 04:35 PM
Thank you Boltazar.

Please post source information.

I personally met a young woman who suffered severely from poisoning by hexavalent chromium which was publicized in a lawsuit against PG&E.

She was a walking wreck.
Not sure if she is walking any longer. I doubt it.

Gentlemen, the 800lb gorilla could be at the door.

Thanks again Bolt... this is info we NEED to know!

...Elsewhere, people are promoting 'happy water' from the bubbler for consumption!...

geobushono
07-05-2008, 04:55 PM
hexavalent chromium
Gentlemen, the 800lb gorilla could be at the door.

I agree that we had better find a (standardized ?) way to dispose of this in a manner that will satisfy the EPA.
The hammer will come down hard at some point, and the community needs to come together on this dangerous chemical that is integral to our projects.

I don't know how much *this* has been addressed, but when BP and Shell decide to talk to their people at EPA, we better have our ducks in a row.

Boltazar
07-05-2008, 04:58 PM
Health Effects of Hexavalent Chromium -- Googel

Boltazar
07-05-2008, 05:03 PM
Stratos I think there's a difference between a commingsl and a gasoline engine as far as compression goes. I heard that the car engines from the 60's and 70's were more efficient than todays engines. Now the cars are just smaller and lighter. If our engines had higher compression and HHO generators we'd get much better MPG

Stratous
07-05-2008, 06:23 PM
Stratos I think there's a difference between a commingsl and a gasoline engine as far as compression goes. I heard that the car engines from the 60's and 70's were more efficient than todays engines. Now the cars are just smaller and lighter. If our engines had higher compression and HHO generators we'd get much better MPG

Yes there is a massive difference, I have a turbo which compresses air into my cylider at a very high rate. The compression ratio is about 17:1 on this engine. That means that 1.5LPM in my engine is a lower ratio than it would be in your engine. 3 liters per minute is easily done, but its not easily maintained. Making 3LPM will require probably 40 amps or more unless we find a better way to crack water. The purpose of the hho isnt to replace the fuel, its to assist the more effective burn of fuel. If you inject to much HHO into your engine you can actually cause damage. The HHO burns completely before the gas does. HHO burns like 300 times faster and has 3.5 times the energy of gasoline. If a large enough burn takes place while the piston is still traveling up, bad things can happen.

Boltazar
07-05-2008, 08:23 PM
If you inject to much HHO into your engine you can actually cause damage. The HHO burns completely before the gas does. HHO burns like 300 times faster and has 3.5 times the energy of gasoline. If a large enough burn takes place while the piston is still traveling up, bad things can happen.


Stratous

I think your rite. Most engines fire before top dead center with added hydrogen a later ignition timming might be needed. I also read that stainless steel valves can be purchased to replace rusted steel ones.

Pete

justaguy
07-05-2008, 08:44 PM
Boltazar, PG&E as in Erin Brockovich? Ok, what oil company do you work for?

rmptr
07-05-2008, 09:26 PM
justaguy, it was me who threw PG&E out there...

The gal I met was wife of a PG&E lineman.
Long job out in the desert... near Edwards, CA , I think.

They lived in a mobile at a company maintained site with others for a number of years while a bunch of work was being done.

She came down sick after moving over to this coastal area and began wasting away from all kinds of odd afflictions that could not be explained.

In the end it had something to do with contaminated well water. I think.

It was the Erin Brokovitch thing in Hinkley, near Barstow.

It's all common info, now.

I just was unaware hex chrome was side product of SS in electrolyte.
I WILL check it out.

Best

Boltazar
07-05-2008, 09:53 PM
justaguy

I'm a carpenter / Cabinetmaker

rmpter

304 is worse than 316L stainless steel. BUT they both contaminate the electrolite.

Pete

Boltazar
07-05-2008, 09:57 PM
I just read this web site www.waterconverters.com Very informative

Pete

justaguy
07-05-2008, 10:52 PM
Pete, I didn't mean to give you a hard time. I seen the movie Erin Brockovich about the hexavalent chromium, that is some bad stuff but I think what little amount we play with won,t do any harm to the environment. As a matter of fact the hydrogen burns so clean it might help pollution in some areas.

I will add an extra caution to your list though which is not a concern to me but a reminder to others. If you are using any type of Sodium, as in baking soda or sodium hydroxide, DO NOT INHALE THE GAS, experiment in a well ventilated area. The sodium gives off chlorine gas which is deadly. This is like a lot other things though, the volume you inhale has to be high to do the harm, no different than the petro we put in our vehicles every day.

We just need to be responsible and use common sence.

BTW, if that 800 lb gorilla knocks on my door, i,ll seek my poodle on his butt,lol

Ronjinsan
07-07-2008, 05:59 AM
Cant seem to get to that site Pete! Any chance you typed it wrong or maybe the CIA shut it down! LOL I'm glad you brought this up though as I grind SS quite often. Will be wearing a mask from now on though.Apparently it reacts with vitamin C badly! Promotes things like senility! What...where am I.......who am I......

Boltazar
07-07-2008, 08:48 AM
Sorry Its www.waterfuelconverters.com

Pete

timetowinarace
07-07-2008, 11:16 AM
Just welding SS will make you feel sick. I'm sure electrolysis with SS or anything else has bi-products but it would be my guess that the levels would be quite low. I'm going to assume that hexavalent chromium is a particulate, a gas is unlikely to contaminate ground water. Thus, if it is produced in the electrolysis proccess, it will be unlikely to escape the water for us to breathe. I don't drink my electrolyte solution.

Smith03Jetta
07-07-2008, 11:29 AM
If you are using any type of Sodium, as in baking soda or sodium hydroxide, DO NOT INHALE THE GAS, experiment in a well ventilated area. The sodium gives off chlorine gas which is deadly.

Justaguy, you should go back and study chemistry a little bit before making blanket statments about Soduim. Sodium is a chemical. It can't make chlorine gas, no matter what you do to it. Alchemists have tried for thousands of years to change one chemical into another. Lead into Gold for example. It can't be done...

Now I'll play Devil's advocate. If you use Sodiom Chloride Na(Sodium) Cl(Chlorine) (Table Salt) you can get some Chlorine gas. The gas comes from the Chloride half of the molecule.

Sodium Hydroxide is made up of Na(Sodium), H(Hydrogen) and O(Oxygen) ---- no chlorine.

Sodium Bicarbonate is made up of Na(Sodium), H(Hydrogen), C(Carbon), O(Oxygen) ---- no chlorine...

If you decide to put pure Sodium metal into your water, it will pop and dance across the surface of the water until the water completely consumes the sodium. The by-products will be Sodium Hydroxide and Hydrogen gas. Please don't do this, it's dangerous. It's also potentially explosive in water.

Mr. Smith

justaguy
07-07-2008, 10:27 PM
justaguy, it was me who threw PG&E out there...

The gal I met was wife of a PG&E lineman.
Long job out in the desert... near Edwards, CA , I think.

They lived in a mobile at a company maintained site with others for a number of years while a bunch of work was being done.

She came down sick after moving over to this coastal area and began wasting away from all kinds of odd afflictions that could not be explained.

In the end it had something to do with contaminated well water. I think.

It was the Erin Brokovitch thing in Hinkley, near Barstow.

It's all common info, now.

I just was unaware hex chrome was side product of SS in electrolyte.
I WILL check it out.

Best

Ok sorry Boltzar my appologies, actually chrome plating and lots of other industries deal with the hexavalent chromium,,, nothing is completely safe. We just need to use common sence.

Smith03Jetta
07-08-2008, 09:32 AM
Hexavalent Chromium (Cr +6)is produced at the anode (Positive) plate but it is reduced at the cathode (Negative) terminal. There is an eventual build-up of Cr +6 in the water but most of the Cr +6 will be present in the vapors just above the water's surface. The bubbles breaking open on the surface carries the Cr +6 to the surface. This presents the most danger for experimenters. Don't breath the vapors and don't run your generators in your basements or sealed up rooms. It can cause dimentia that will cause you to think you are getting better gas mileage.

Skin cancer and lung cancer is a result of over-exposure to this nasty stuff. High Levels of Vitamin C in the cells will actually amplify the damage to DNA by a factor of 15. This DNA damage will be passed on to your children.

Since Cr +6 is a product of Stainless Steel at the Anode(+) but not at the cathode(-) then we need to come up with another type of metal to use as an Anode that does not contain chromium will not deteriorate. Any suggestions? Stainless should still be OK for the Cathode(-).

Now for a method for cleaning up contaminated water before disposal...

Taken from http://www.nmfrc.org/bluebook/sec622.htm

"Sacrificial iron anode technology makes use of an electrochemical reaction in which an electrical current is applied to consumable iron electrodes. The electrochemical cell consists of a number of 1/8 in. cold rolled carbon steel plates separated by 1/8 in. gaps. A DC power supply is connected across the two end plates. Wastewater flows through the gaps in contact with the electrodes allowing the current to flow from electrode to electrode. The current flow causes the anode to dissolve slowly, thereby generating ferrous ions into the wastewater stream. The ferrous iron chemically reacts with the hexavalent chromium and reduces it to the trivalent state. During this reduction process, the iron is converted to trivalent iron hydroxide which results in a co-precipitation effect, where the iron hydroxide adsorbs heavy metal cations onto its surface (ref. 412). The process has the advantage of able to reduce chromium at neutral pH. A drawback is that the process produces ferric hydroxides, which increases the quantity of sludge."

This method will help with cleaning up our testing water before it's disposal. The small volume of water that we are testing with really has no measurable impact on our environment but we should really be aware of the potential problem and do our part to help the environment. The above method is used for treating waste water from electroplating businesses that produce upwards of 150,000 gallons of contaminated waste water a day. I think that it would take a seriously long time to consume an iron anode with the liter or two of contaminated water that we are dealing with.

Mr. Smith