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OUScooby
03-17-2009, 03:09 PM
Anyone with info specific to Scoobies? Or turboed cars in general?

OUScooby
03-22-2009, 02:22 AM
anyone????

OUScooby
03-22-2009, 02:35 AM
I want to attempt HHO on my Scooby, but need some more info first. I'm going to make a dry cell generator, and probably do the bubbler setup. Any other fail safes I need. How much gas should I produce? What is the target volume per min. It's 2.0L Turbo charged engine. I've read that a good ratio is 1lpm per liter of displacement. But with the forced induction is this still correct as there is more air going into the same volume?
Also where do I tap the HHO, do I run it to the intercooler or the intake manifold, and if so will I have problems overcoming the pressure from the boost to pump in the HHO. Or do I tap it pre turbo, in which case how do I ensure that the system doesn't accidently pump water into the turbo.
Also any general tip for getting started would be help full, and tips for building and installing a system.
What about engine management? Right now I'm doing open source tuning to flash downloaded maps to the ECU, how do I tune for HHO, anyone got a map for this?
And anyone with info specific to WRXs STis or Subarus, or Force Induction cars in general.

Don't know if this info is relevant but I've got an '04 WRX with Stage 2 XTP engine map, 3" catless downpipe, 3" catless cat back, catless uppipe, and ported throttle body and intake.

Thanks for any help.

OUScooby
04-02-2009, 09:03 PM
anyone????

H2OPWR
04-02-2009, 10:23 PM
I want to attempt HHO on my Scooby, but need some more info first. I'm going to make a dry cell generator, and probably do the bubbler setup. Any other fail safes I need. How much gas should I produce? What is the target volume per min. It's 2.0L Turbo charged engine. I've read that a good ratio is 1lpm per liter of displacement. But with the forced induction is this still correct as there is more air going into the same volume?
Also where do I tap the HHO, do I run it to the intercooler or the intake manifold, and if so will I have problems overcoming the pressure from the boost to pump in the HHO. Or do I tap it pre turbo, in which case how do I ensure that the system doesn't accidently pump water into the turbo.
Also any general tip for getting started would be help full, and tips for building and installing a system.
What about engine management? Right now I'm doing open source tuning to flash downloaded maps to the ECU, how do I tune for HHO, anyone got a map for this?
And anyone with info specific to WRXs STis or Subarus, or Force Induction cars in general.

Don't know if this info is relevant but I've got an '04 WRX with Stage 2 XTP engine map, 3" catless downpipe, 3" catless cat back, catless uppipe, and ported throttle body and intake.

Thanks for any help.

The reason you are not getting any advice is that no one here that I know has tried adding HHO to a turbocharged gasoline engine. We just do not know what would be the best advice. First I would use at least 2 lpm of HHO AT LEAST. If you are going to try to inject it after the turbo you will have to overcome the boost pressure and that will not be easy. I would inject it before the turbo. You will have to deal with the waste gate just dumping the hho at full boost and that is why I mwould use at least 2lpm. Sorry but I do not have any more good advice with a turbo gas engine.

Larry

Scorpio4.7L
04-02-2009, 11:13 PM
...If you are going to try to inject it after the turbo you will have to overcome the boost pressure and that will not be easy. I would inject it before the turbo. You will have to deal with the waste gate just dumping the hho at full boost...

I agree.
I don't know much about HHO, but I do know that purging the unbunt HHO gas into your engine bay might not be the best idea. I mean, we are talking electrical wires, heat and the unknown. Who knows..

One scenario is:
Your at the stoplight spooling up your turbo for the pretty girls in the next car over - they want to hear the BOV go off, so you keep purging the HHO..Light turns green and the unburned gas is ignited by an after market coil pack. Or shotty wiring. I'm not saying your engine isn't build right. All I'm trying to say is: I would hate to have been under the hood of a car when it backfired if there was an accumulated amount of HHO gas present from a BOV.

I'm sure it can be done safely somehow. I am interested.

OUScooby
04-03-2009, 02:58 AM
I agree.
I don't know much about HHO, but I do know that purging the unbunt HHO gas into your engine bay might not be the best idea. I mean, we are talking electrical wires, heat and the unknown. Who knows..

One scenario is:
Your at the stoplight spooling up your turbo for the pretty girls in the next car over - they want to hear the BOV go off, so you keep purging the HHO..Light turns green and the unburned gas is ignited by an after market coil pack. Or shotty wiring. I'm not saying your engine isn't build right. All I'm trying to say is: I would hate to have been under the hood of a car when it backfired if there was an accumulated amount of HHO gas present from a BOV.

I'm sure it can be done safely somehow. I am interested.

I actually don't have a BOV, I'm still running the stock turbo setup with a bypass valve, no aftermarket coil packs, and I've never messed with any of the wiring. And my boy racer days of reving up at stop lights ended long ago, but I see what you're saying.
I'm thinking of tapping into intercooler similar to a meth injection setup, or into the intake manifold similar to a dry shot NOS setup, overcoming boost will be an issue, but I think it can be done (like I said most meth injecting kits tap post turbo into the intercooler, but that is liquid not gas), and as far as purging, perhaps a purge line similar to a NOS setup could be the solution.

But really, I know this isn't the most active forum, but surely someone has at least attempted this on a forced induction gasoline engine.

cully
04-03-2009, 04:48 AM
You will have to deal with the waste gate just dumping the hho at full boost and that is why I mwould use at least 2lpm.

Larry


that depends on if the car is fitted with a recirculating dump valve or a dump valve that vents to atmosphere

its quite common for the "boy racers" to fit the latter as that suppose to sound better on the street with the whoosh of dump coming off throttle


with the recirc it takes the boost and puts it back into the low pressure intake side after the air sensor so it keeps the metered air in the system

Painless
04-03-2009, 09:41 AM
Here's a theory for how you might inject HHO after the turbo:

Build yourself a venturi that goes down from a fairly large inlet size to a very small centre section. Run the HHO hose to the centre section and mount it flush with the inner diameter. My theory is that the fast passage of air through the venturi will reduce the physical air pressure at that point (less mass, more speed) and enable the HHO to get into the intake. The venturi should also create a 'sucking' effect on the hose.

Russ.

OUScooby
04-04-2009, 04:02 PM
that depends on if the car is fitted with a recirculating dump valve or a dump valve that vents to atmosphere

its quite common for the "boy racers" to fit the latter as that suppose to sound better on the street with the whoosh of dump coming off throttle


with the recirc it takes the boost and puts it back into the low pressure intake side after the air sensor so it keeps the metered air in the system

I have a bypass valve, which is a recirculatory system, it does not vent to the atmosphere. A blow off valve, which is what makes the "whoosh" is what dumps to the atmosphere.

OUScooby
04-04-2009, 04:06 PM
Here's a theory for how you might inject HHO after the turbo:

Build yourself a venturi that goes down from a fairly large inlet size to a very small centre section. Run the HHO hose to the centre section and mount it flush with the inner diameter. My theory is that the fast passage of air through the venturi will reduce the physical air pressure at that point (less mass, more speed) and enable the HHO to get into the intake. The venturi should also create a 'sucking' effect on the hose.

Russ.

Interesting idea. I googled venturi, and read up on it, but still don't quite understand it or how to implement it. Can you explain further, please?

velorossa22
04-06-2009, 12:52 AM
I just installed one on my 96 legacy 2.2L. So far mileage went from 26-28 to 33mpg. I've installed a MAP enhancer but I'm not sure if it's working correctly since it won't kill the car. I can give you more info on the install if you want.

OUScooby
04-06-2009, 09:11 PM
I just installed one on my 96 legacy 2.2L. So far mileage went from 26-28 to 33mpg. I've installed a MAP enhancer but I'm not sure if it's working correctly since it won't kill the car. I can give you more info on the install if you want.

Yes please, more info would be great. Is that the turboed 2.2L?

velorossa22
04-07-2009, 09:04 PM
No it's a N/a. Are there any turbo 2.2Ls out there? Anyways I have it installed and I'm chasing down the o2 gremlins that have been haunting me for awhile. I'm trying to get it to run in closed loop mode so I can adjust the A/F ratio.
So far here's the data:
Normally car runs at 26-28mpg depending on conditions.
Took 20 mile round trip with hho at 20a and the mileage was 32mpg.
Went to work with hho on, check engine light came on about 10 minutes in the trip, then on the way home generator wasn't working b/c the electrolyte had leaked out of generator while at work ( must have heated up good on the 50 miles to work). With HHO only on 1/2 time and check engine light on mpg was 29. 100mile round trip
Today I went to work the check engine light stayed off ( changed out the 02 sensor on the cat-hopefully that was the one) and I kept hho off for the trip. Mileage was 28mpg on 100 mile trip.
We will see tomorrow what it will bring with the generator running hopefully full time.
My wife left for oregon and took the camera when she comes back I will post pics of the install.

OUScooby
04-08-2009, 11:18 PM
No it's a N/a. Are there any turbo 2.2Ls out there? Anyways I have it installed and I'm chasing down the o2 gremlins that have been haunting me for awhile. I'm trying to get it to run in closed loop mode so I can adjust the A/F ratio.

We will see tomorrow what it will bring with the generator running hopefully full time.
My wife left for oregon and took the camera when she comes back I will post pics of the install.

There is one turboed 2.2L, it's called the 22B and its the most coveted of all Subarus umaoung the Subaru enthusiast community. Mention the 22B to a Scooby fan boy and just watch them start to drool.

Anyway can't wait for some pics, and good luck with working out the kinks.

velorossa22
04-09-2009, 01:15 AM
Another set back today. My generator leaked out again on the drive and after it sat I went to show a couple guys at work my setup, the + and the - somehow made a dead short sending my circuit breaker into fits. Now the car has a weird high idle issue ( like almost 3000rpm) then bounces down then up then down and so on for a few minutes til it totally warm. Check engine light goes on immediately. In fact it kept wanting to die too. I'm bummed b/c now I have to figure out what I broke :(.
But I did rebuild the generator with twice as many bolts so hopefully it will stop leaking. But I not sure about running hho until I can get the check engine light read.
I have to go to Oregon to pick up my wife and son with this car and I don't want to be stuck somewhere out on I-5.
Did the 22B make it into legacy? Or is it a WRX thing?

Painless
04-09-2009, 03:21 PM
Another set back today. My generator leaked out again on the drive and after it sat I went to show a couple guys at work my setup, the + and the - somehow made a dead short sending my circuit breaker into fits. Now the car has a weird high idle issue ( like almost 3000rpm) then bounces down then up then down and so on for a few minutes til it totally warm. Check engine light goes on immediately. In fact it kept wanting to die too. I'm bummed b/c now I have to figure out what I broke :(.
But I did rebuild the generator with twice as many bolts so hopefully it will stop leaking. But I not sure about running hho until I can get the check engine light read.
I have to go to Oregon to pick up my wife and son with this car and I don't want to be stuck somewhere out on I-5.
Did the 22B make it into legacy? Or is it a WRX thing?
If I were you, I would disconnect both the positive feed and the ground from the cell and see if the problem goes away. Sounds to me like you still have a bad current drain somewhere.

OUScooby
04-09-2009, 07:35 PM
Another set back today. My generator leaked out again on the drive and after it sat I went to show a couple guys at work my setup, the + and the - somehow made a dead short sending my circuit breaker into fits. Now the car has a weird high idle issue ( like almost 3000rpm) then bounces down then up then down and so on for a few minutes til it totally warm. Check engine light goes on immediately. In fact it kept wanting to die too. I'm bummed b/c now I have to figure out what I broke :(.
But I did rebuild the generator with twice as many bolts so hopefully it will stop leaking. But I not sure about running hho until I can get the check engine light read.
I have to go to Oregon to pick up my wife and son with this car and I don't want to be stuck somewhere out on I-5.
Did the 22B make it into legacy? Or is it a WRX thing?

The 22B is a WRX, it was the basis for Subaru's WRC car when they won the championship with McRae. Very few were ever made and it was never sold outside of Japan unfortunately, there is supposidly only one in the US, and it's owned by Subaru of America, and just sits in the lobby of the HQ (what a waste).

As for your strange idle sounds like an MAF sensor problem, what code are you throwing? A bad or dirty MAF sensor will cuase this exact thing. Hopefully it just needs cleaning and it's just a coincidence that it happened after you installed the system, but you may have fried it with the short.

First thing though I would simply try resetting the ECU, see if it fixes the idle and if the CEL returns.

Also wondering, where you mounted you're device. I was thinking of putting mine in the trunk, as I didn't want hydrogen accumulating in the engine bay with a hot turbo in case there is a leak, I don't know how it is in a legacy, but my Rex doesn't have a lot of room in the engine bay or a good place to mount.

velorossa22
04-09-2009, 08:38 PM
PO505. Which normally has something to do with idle air control valve. I recently cleaned mine and it cleared a low idle issue when warming up. I pulled it again, looks okay but looks like someone sprayed green spray paint on the lobe the rotates inside the valve. Does KOH turn aluminum to a green oxide? Anyways it doesn't appear to want to come off so maybe I'm crazy and it was always there. Otherwise maybe my IAC is going bad? Oh yeah no vacuum leaks that I could find.
MAKE SURE TO BENCH TEST YOUR CELL FOR AWHILE BEFORE INSTALLING IN THE TRUNK!
I've been fighting leaking issues with my cell and it would have been a major bummer to have to clean KOH out of my trunk carpet. As it was it got the bottom of my motor, trans exhaust and the connections for the O2 sensors coated with crap that had to be cleaned off ( meanwhile KOH was dripping on my head while I was underneath the car...
I'm clearing the code again as I was to reinstall the IAC. I had tried numerous times before to do the same thing but the CEL kept coming back.

OUScooby
04-14-2009, 01:07 AM
So I've got a lead on a deal on a meth injection kit for my car, I'm thinking I could use this to pump in HHO instead, this could be a solution to tapping post turbo and overcoming preasure, don't know if this will work with a gas instead of a liquid. Thoughts?
http://smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm

OUScooby
04-30-2009, 05:20 AM
bump?.........

OUScooby
05-22-2009, 04:37 AM
anyone????

OUScooby
06-21-2009, 04:34 AM
So, I just realized something, and I'm not sure why I never thought of it before. Perhaps I was too concerned with water from my HHO setup accidently being sucked into my turbo that I never even considered this.
A turbocharger runs very hot (I'll try to find normal operating temps for my car and turbo, a WRX with a TD04) so is it even possible to inject HHO pre turbo? or will the heat generated by the turbo ignite the hydrogen inside the turbo before it even reaches the combustion chamber?
What temperature does HHO burn at?

wrxdrvr
06-24-2009, 12:36 AM
I don't know at what temp HHO would ignite but the turbo out temps can easily get to be around 122*C/252*F or hotter...

Q-Hack!
06-24-2009, 07:57 PM
From the wiki:

Hydrogen-oxygen mixtures are explosive across a wide range of proportions. Its autoignition temperature, the temperature at which it ignites spontaneously in air, is 560 °C (1,040 °F).

OUScooby
06-25-2009, 05:59 PM
wrxdrvr: I assume from your screen name that you've got a rex too. Are you running HHO with it?

wrxdrvr
06-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Hi, No I'm not... Thought about it, but not with-it enough to actually build one. :) If a kit actually comes out for a wrx with engine management I would probably try it out. :cool:

mobman
06-25-2009, 10:22 PM
Bro i have already answered this question in your Q & A section, check it out!

OUScooby
06-25-2009, 11:22 PM
^^^ Well I just don't think that it is impossible to tap post turbo and over come boost pressure. They are tons of guys running meth water kits those are sprayed post turbo, granted that is a liquid not a gas, but I think with a pump system of some sort it could be possible. I saw your answer, don't get so offended if I seek a 2nd opinion.

jeepmonkee
06-30-2009, 08:21 PM
I have a working hho system in my jeep and I also owned an 06 wrx with upgrades and Cobb tuned maps.Putting an hho in a turbo wrx kinda defeats the purpose.Its nice to have fuel economy (they make tuned maps for that) but you cant have your cake and eat it too .The turbo ecu is extremely sophisticated .Turbo cars need to run rich for power and detonation prevention.Meth/water injection allows for more power.With HHO you're running on the lean side and fooling the computer to think its ok. Not good on a turbo with so many variables,boost ,altitude,premium fuel,multiple converters.It would take a lot of computing time and failsafes. Has it been done? probably..have they lasted or succeeded long term? Diesel are a different animal all together.

OUScooby
07-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I have a working hho system in my jeep and I also owned an 06 wrx with upgrades and Cobb tuned maps.Putting an hho in a turbo wrx kinda defeats the purpose.Its nice to have fuel economy (they make tuned maps for that) but you cant have your cake and eat it too .The turbo ecu is extremely sophisticated .Turbo cars need to run rich for power and detonation prevention.Meth/water injection allows for more power.With HHO you're running on the lean side and fooling the computer to think its ok. Not good on a turbo with so many variables,boost ,altitude,premium fuel,multiple converters.It would take a lot of computing time and failsafes. Has it been done? probably..have they lasted or succeeded long term? Diesel are a different animal all together.

I'm running an the XTP stage 2 map right now. I've got a small netbook in the glove box and can flash new maps to the ECU, basically like the COBB Accessport. It's also going to be running virtual gauges via ODBII, so I can keep an eye on the engine, set alarms for certain parameters and shut things down if things start going wrong.
My plan is to create a custom map for HHO, don't necessarily have to be running HHO all the time, I'll just flash the ECU when I want to use it, and flash back the XPT map when I want to enjoy more power.

Yes turbo cars do run richer, but I've seen quite a few lean fuel tunes on Subies, they boost lower but still produce the power (although it takes a lot of fine tuning to get the tune right, get things wrong and you detonate). I guess my HHO map would be similar to these lean tunes, then adding the HHO would make it safer to run that lean. First problem to over come is getting the HHO to the engine, and overcoming the manifold pressure.

wrxdrvr
07-02-2009, 03:42 PM
I personally would "T" into the wastegate solenoid return line where it goes back into the intake just past the MAF sensor and have the HHO going into the intake before the turbo. Then tune the ECU for it. (If I could tune which I can't) But that is the way that it could work, with tuning... Not fooling the O2 sensor etc... And yes having a ecomap tuned with the HHO on and a power map with the HHO off like the AP RT map would be great. :cool: