PDA

View Full Version : Inductors to create electromagnetic fields instead of Electrodes w/ Electrolyte (R&D)



ElectricSquid
03-24-2009, 11:54 PM
The big question really hit me last night (while in the shower http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/uglystupid2.gifwhere all good ideas originate)...

The BIG Question

Why is it that we struggle endlessly to create justifiable amounts of HHO with the use of a carefully balanced design of electrodes which forces us to use some form of electrolyte to allow electrical flow through the water?

It's a long complicated question, I know. Even I, the one that thought it up, had to rethink it a few times over to really get the full weight of it. Basically, I feel that the very basis of our designs are flawed on many levels, and I'd like to do something about that. Let me explain...

Having the electrical current flow through the water does nothing at all to produce HHO directly. In fact, we call it "Voltage Leak" and it makes us squirm in our skin until we limit it every way we can. Electric flow though the water produces heat and makes units boil over, which we ALL know is one of the BIGGEST limiting factors we face. But due to design, having the currect flow through the water is a necessary evil, because it's the water between the plates that completes the connection, which creates the electromagnetic fields ...

- STOP right there!! -
It's the Electromagnetic Fields that we are after? That's what rips the H2O apart, right? That's the whole reason why we use the electrode plates.
So why not build an electrode that gives us the best magnetic field that we can get out of it?

Why not use...
Induction Production

Ok, I got a little goofy with that one, but it's a valid idea. Coils of wire around a iron core produce an electromagnetic field without needing to transfer electricity through the water, which would mean that we would no longer use electrolyte. In fact, we could use the pure distilled water as an insulator, which is what naturally is anyway.

If you need to read up on what an Inductor is, here's a great multi page write-up with good pics.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/inductor.htm

Like I said, I just had this idea less than 20 hours ago, so I don't have a good design drawn up yet. But I would like to hear your knowledge or follow any links you have on existing designs similar to this.

On the research list:

Core materials usable while submerged in distiled water
Core materials usable that are non-reactive to hydrogen or oxygen
Can we use Copper wire and an Iron core (optimum efficiency and very cost effective)
Calculation for thickness of wire compaired to length of wire compared to amount of wraps around core compared to length of coil.
Optimum configuration for inductors to create alternating magnetic fields
Outer housing and inner bracing


More coming soon, including test video...

Blinger101
03-25-2009, 12:31 AM
Interesting theory/concept. From what I understand, are you proposing the induction generator look something like this:

*inductor coil shamelessly taken from the example picture in the link provided :)*
http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg113/scaled.php?server=113&filename=induction.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

The one major drawback I can see right now is rust. Iron + Water = Bad.

Good thinking though. :)

ElectricSquid
03-25-2009, 12:31 AM
Here's more technical information on Inductors, and they cover Oscillators too.
http://www.physics.sjsu.edu/becker/physics51/induction.htm

Gary Diamond
03-25-2009, 12:39 AM
Sorry but we don't make a electromagnetic field. Put some iron next to your cell, if it does not feel like a magnet then its not a electromagnetic field

ElectricSquid
03-25-2009, 12:39 AM
Interesting theory/concept. From what I understand, are you proposing the induction generator look something like this:

*inductor coil shamelessly taken from the example picture in the link provided :)*
http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg113/scaled.php?server=113&filename=induction.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

The one major drawback I can see right now is rust. Iron + Water = Bad.

Good thinking though. :)

Yes, kinda, but with at the very least two inductors, but more like a full array of inductors.
I would need to align the inductors so they go +-+-+-+- for the proper magnetic drag on the water.

Yea, Iron + Water = RUST
I need to either figure out what to add to the water, or coat the iron with, to keep the rust away. Might be as easy as painting the core :rolleyes:

Or use a different, magnetically optimum, easy to acquire material.

ElectricSquid
03-25-2009, 12:45 AM
Sorry but we don't make a electromagnetic field. Put some iron next to your cell, if it does not feel like a magnet then its not a electromagnetic field

No?
From all I've learned so far, that's what is happening between the electrode plates. The Hydrogen is attracted to the negative side, and the Oxygen is attracted to the positive. That basically rips the bond apart.

If not, please explain to me what is really happening.

Blinger101
03-25-2009, 01:07 AM
If not, please explain to me what is really happening.

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistryelectrolysis.html

Gives a quick jist of what happens to the H2O molecules when energy (in the form of electricity) is applied to it. There's no mention of any 'electro-magnetism' going on. It all has to do with the fact that Hydrogen atoms are positively charged, and Oxygen atoms are negatively charged, which explains why the H's go to the negative sides of the plates and the O's go to the positive sides of the plates in a cell (wet or dry).

Painless
03-25-2009, 09:45 AM
The big question really hit me last night (while in the shower http://wherethetrailends.com/Smileys/classic/uglystupid2.gifwhere all good ideas originate)...

Firstly,

I MUST STRONGLY DISAGREE!!!!!

...all good ideas are thought of on the toilet... NOT in the shower! :)

There is magnetism in an HHO cell, anywhere there is an electronic field, there will be a magnetic one. This is why our vehicles go faster with HHO, they are magnetically attracted to the car in front.

But seriously, splitting water is all about energy. We put energy into the water that is enough to overcome the bond between the hydrogen and the oxygen and the electrical charge of the plates separates the three atoms, preventing them from re-joining again.

What we DO need to do is to find a more efficient way of getting the energy into the water. Heat is one way. We need to find more. Is there any energy, of the kind we need in magnetism? Possibly.

Russ.

Gary Diamond
03-25-2009, 11:55 AM
That's why when the gasket material is thinner, it takes less energy to break down the water, but of course to a point.

JumpStart65
03-25-2009, 08:28 PM
[QUOTE=Blinger101;26041]Interesting theory/concept. From what I understand, are you proposing the induction generator look something like this:

*inductor coil shamelessly taken from the example picture in the link provided :)*
http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg113/scaled.php?server=113&filename=induction.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480



ElectricSquid has the right idea, however, Blinger101, the wrong applicatiion.

Take your pvc tube, wind the coils around the outside, cap an end,add electrolyte, cap other end, turn on the juice,,,

As explained in pretty god detail here,,,, http://altenergy.site90.com/hunter.htm

And for those who belive seeing is believing,,, http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects/AlaskaStar/Magnetic%20Hydrogen%20Electrolyser


PatL

alpha-dog
03-27-2009, 06:17 PM
I've followed this thread for some time
http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2327

tadpole
03-29-2009, 12:01 PM
I was discussing wether or not you could break apart the hyrdogen / oxygen using electro magnetic fields and he said it is posibble, he is a electrical engineer that works for TECO.

Tad

ElectricSquid
05-09-2009, 12:12 AM
I did a test some time ago, but haven't had the time to post the results. until now.

Anyway, I did a magnetic field test on a working Smacks Booster electrode array using a simple compass. What I found is that there was no detectable magnetic field at all.

Then, I tried to create even the slightest amount of HHO by using two large rare earth magnets at .072 inches apart submerged in a bath of distilled water...

The result was NO HHO.

Then, I added electrolyte (KOH), just for ****s and giggles :P ...

The result was NO HHO.






(maybe in a large scale generator, It might work. Maybe a generator the size of a particle accelerator, but that would not produce enough power to drive it down the road.)



So I conclude that for conventional means, the electromagnetic field HHO generator theory was a total failure and has been proven, at least in my small scale tests, to not work AT ALL.

Zero, zilch, nothing, no HHO.

truckman1966
05-15-2009, 02:29 AM
good thoughts though. always worth a try!

Philldpapill
06-01-2009, 10:49 PM
ElectricSquid,
Something needs to be understood. This is basic field electromagnetics, but not exactly common knowledge...

There is NO "Electromagnetic Field" involved in electrolysis - except maybe the photons hitting your eyes, allowing you to see right now... There IS, however, a magnetic field that is produced from the current flowing through your wires, and also an electric field produced within the wire, and between the plates. These two fields, in this case at least, are totally unrelated.

The term "electromagnetic field" applies only to a self propogating wave, such as light, Xrays, radio waves, etc. You can never have any sort of stationary EM field.

Now, with that said, a tid bit about electrochemistry for a second. The phenomena that causes the H2 and O2 to form, is not because of moving charges within the water, but because the charges jump off the H and O ions in the water, and jump onto the metal plates. Your theory DOES indeed have some merit, but it involves frequencies in the GHz range. I think the resonant frequency of an H20 molecule is something like 22GHz.

If you were to apply an oscillating magnetic field at 22GHz, yes, you could cause the molecules to fly apart, and form H2 and O2(with different res. freqs.) This method COULD indeed produce H2 and O2, but it requires EXTREMELY sophisticated equipment. Your microwave oven operates on something like 4.5GHz, or around that.

Anyway, long story short... A Stationary magnetic field doesn't really do anything, except attract magnetic materials, and alter the direction of charged particles. A CHANGING magnetic field, however, causes charged particles to feel a force, or move. Basically, a stationary M field causes MOVING charged particles to feel a force, and a changing M field causes STATIONARY charged particles to feel a force(or any charged particle really).