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hho_underground
07-10-2008, 12:50 PM
Hello,

I saw a youtube video showing/stating that when you have this plate configuration:

+ n n -

The nuetrals plates will be the opposite of the plate next to it.

So when current is supplied to the cell, the above plate configuration becomes:

+ n(-) n(+) -

Is this true?

If so, what happens in this set up:

+ n n n -

Applied current:

+ n(-) n(+-) n(+) -

With regards to the n(+-) plate, who wins... + or - ? :eek:

I will have more questions depending on the answers I get. :)

Thanks!

-M

timetowinarace
07-10-2008, 01:03 PM
+ n n - actually becomes + n(-on the left side +on the right) n(-on the left side +on the right) -.

Each n plate is negative on one side positive on the other.

So, + n n n - is + (-+) (-+) (-+) - where each n plate is beteen the ()'s.

Does that make more sence?

Go here for a better understanding of the electrical principles of hho
http://http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapt10.html

Stratous
07-10-2008, 01:25 PM
Personally, I think they are all incorrect. I believe the N plates take on the negative charge because the electrons travel from negative to positive. Its very easy to test. In your cell measure the voltage from the Negative plate to each N plate. If the voltage stays the same polarity then all plates are polarized the same way.

timetowinarace
07-10-2008, 02:09 PM
Personally, I think they are all incorrect. I believe the N plates take on the negative charge because the electrons travel from negative to positive. Its very easy to test. In your cell measure the voltage from the Negative plate to each N plate. If the voltage stays the same polarity then all plates are polarized the same way.

Of course I'll disagree. If you apply your belief to a set of simple resisters you will find one side + and one side -. The plates are not holding a charge, they are flowing current through them. Just like a resister.

Stratous
07-10-2008, 02:37 PM
Of course I'll disagree. If you apply your belief to a set of simple resisters you will find one side + and one side -. The plates are not holding a charge, they are flowing current through them. Just like a resister.

I believe we men the same thing. If that is true, then one side of the N plate should read + and the other -. Resisters have a positive and ngative side because they are designed that way. They are designed to resist current in one direction hence the anode and cathode side. That is not the same as actual polarity. Simply put our theory to the test. If you place a lead on a negative plate then the other lead on the nearest "N" plate closest to the Neg plate, you will see a positive voltage reading that is less than the overall voltage put into the system, now move to the next "N" plate and you will see a positive charge that is less than the first reading and so on until you get to the positive plate. The plates are not really the resisters, the water is the resister/conductor. The plates act more like a capacitor grabbing a charge and passing it off to the water again. What we have is a reverse battery. When you take power away from the cell you will still actually read voltage at the + and - teminals because the plates hold a charge, just like a battery. I am in no way an expert and can only go from memory of things learned in my past.

dennis13030
07-10-2008, 03:36 PM
Hey guys, the charge state of items inside the electrolyte are as follows:



Anode(+)..................(-)Neutral Plate(+).................(-)Cathode

There can be multiple (-)Neutral Plate(+) 's.

Stratous
07-10-2008, 04:00 PM
How can you have a solid stainless steel plate have both a pos and neg charge? Doesnt make sense to me. I cant get that link to open for some reason.

hho_underground
07-10-2008, 04:00 PM
Ok,

Some more questions.

I've read conflicting reports that a single plate(not a pair), can only be + or - not both.
Is this true?

Dennis,

In my example + n n n -, you are saying, when given a current, it becomes:

+ - n + -

Stratous,

In my example + n n n -, you are saying, when given a current, it becomes:
+ - - - -

Here's the link... http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapt10.html

-M

Stratous
07-10-2008, 04:05 PM
Ok,

Some more questions.

I've read conflicting reports that a single plate(not a pair), can only be + or - not both.
Is this true?

Dennis,

In my example + n n n -, you are saying, when given a current, it becomes:

+ - n + -

Stratous,

In my example + n n n -, you are saying, when given a current, it becomes:
+ + + + -

-M

Not really sure what I am talking about anymore...lol. I think that because the electrons flow from the negative side to the positive side, then a cell like this. +NN-NN+ actually preforms like this. +-----+, at least it seemed that way when I stuck my voltage meter accross each plate. Honestly though, its confusing because the plate isnt actually connected to the power. It just sits in the middle of the water interupting the flow of electrons from one point to another.

Stratous
07-10-2008, 04:12 PM
Ok, i got this off a web site and am now totally confused.

When electricity was discovered, nobody knew how it works and
electrons were unknown. So the scientists just defined one of
the poles as "positive" and said that the current is flowing
from positive to negative. That still is the definition of an
electrical current's flow direction.
However, later scientists discovered that in most (but not all)
materials current is carried by negatively charged electrons,
which travel from negative to positive. The electron flow is
thus opposite to the current flow.
In some materials (e.g. electrolytic solutions) the current is
carried by positive ions, which travel in the current's direc-
tion. And in semiconductors there can be currents of negative
or positive carriers, depending on the doping.

dennis13030
07-10-2008, 04:17 PM
When you have current flow through any material there will be voltage across it. For an electrolyzer you have

1. Anode..Electrolyte..neutral plate..Electrolyte..Cathode

schematically it is approximately the same as

2. wire..resistor..wire..resistor..wire

please note that all wire has some resistance too.

There is current flow throught all of these(anode to cathode).

We normally do not consider a metal plate to be the same as a wire. However, we are passing a current through it like a wire.

Without the current through the plate there can be no voltage across it. We can say the same thing as..without the voltage across the plate there can be no current through it.

hho_underground
07-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Stratous,

How do you think I feel - I'm the one looking for a definitive answer. :)

hho_underground
07-10-2008, 04:22 PM
Hey Dennis,

Does it matter if the current is DC or AC.

Thanks,
-M

dennis13030
07-10-2008, 04:45 PM
Hey Dennis,

Does it matter if the current is DC or AC.

Thanks,
-M

In short, YES.

The anode(plate): we call it the anode because it is associated with the positive battery terminal(positive charge connection). It is a simple matter to identify the anode/cathode with a DC source like a battery.

Now lets talk about an AC source. AC or alternating current means that; in time, the current changes(or alternates) between two(or more) values. Also it make a difference what you define as the reference.

Example 1: In reference to GND, there is +60V then -60V this would be 120V AC with no DC component. Example 2: In reference to GND, there is +30V then +60V this would be 30V AC with 45V DC component.

Many times with AC the reference is not GND. With a two prong AC outlet, neither prong is GND. However you can use one of the prongs as the reference. In this case, you would see a sine wave, 60 Hz, +60V then -60V(or 120V AC).

Now lets put 120VAC on an electrolyzer. One prong goes to an end plate and the other prong goes to the other end plate. Note I did not call the plates anode or cathode because in time these roles swap.

The diagram I made earlier is true for DC and AC. Just remember that when the polarity of the source changes from "+" to "-", so do all of the other polarities inside the electrolyte.

timetowinarace
07-10-2008, 06:15 PM
Resisters have a positive and ngative side because they are designed that way. They are designed to resist current in one direction hence the anode and cathode side.

All resisters that I'm aware of resist current in both directions equally. You can't put one in backwards. I believe it is diodes that cause a resistance in one direction, thus their use in AC to DC converters.

In a capacitor a non-conductive material is sandwiched between two conductors. The material holds the charge and not the conducters. That being the case, wouldn't the water be our capacitance material and not the plates?

For me too, there has been too much time since my electronics days. It's too bad because I think electronics is the key to effeciency and those that are claiming the best success are making their own circuts.

mikestrikes
07-10-2008, 09:46 PM
Well when electroplating anything it goes from Positive to Negative poles.
Is HHO prodution the same ?

rmptr
07-10-2008, 11:04 PM
This, is a kick!

We're giving Dennis a real workout!

You're doing GREAT, Dennis!

Thank you

dennis13030
07-10-2008, 11:13 PM
Thanks. I'm an electronics eng. with the degree(BSEET DeVry).

You guys are helping to learn a lot too. My thanks to everyone!

hho_underground
07-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Thanks Dennis. Your comments as well as others are helping to clear up the confusion I had regarding how the plates work within the cell.

dennis13030
07-11-2008, 10:33 AM
In a capacitor a non-conductive material is sandwiched between two conductors. The material holds the charge and not the conducters. That being the case, wouldn't the water be our capacitance material and not the plates?



Hmmm....is a cell more like a capacitor or a resistor? Great question.

Let review the devices.

RESISTOR
A resistor is commonly composed of a conductor on both ends and the two conductors are separated by a semiconductive material(like carbon).

CAPACITOR
A capacitor is commonly composed of a conductor on both ends and the two conductors are seperated by an insulative material(like air).

Now lets talk about water and a cell. Pure water is very resistive. If we put pure water between to conductive plates the cell will act like a capacitor or a very high value resistor. When we add chemicals to the water, the water becomes less resistive and the cell will act less like a capacitor and more like resistor.

timetowinarace
07-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Hmmm....is a cell more like a capacitor or a resistor? Great question.

Let review the devices.

RESISTOR
A resistor is commonly composed of a conductor on both ends and the two conductors are separated by a semiconductive material(like carbon).

CAPACITOR
A capacitor is commonly composed of a conductor on both ends and the two conductors are seperated by an insulative material(like air).

Now lets talk about water and a cell. Pure water is very resistive. If we put pure water between to conductive plates the cell will act like a capacitor or a very high value resistor. When we add chemicals to the water, the water becomes less resistive and the cell will act less like a capacitor and more like resistor.

Let's take it a bit further. Correct me if/when I am wrong or misguided.

During electrolysis, an electron is stripped from a H2O molecule, thus breaking the bond of the H2 and the O. Were does this electron go? Does it increase the capacitance of the water?

It seems we now have a bunch of electrons without a home.

Believe it or not, I actually have a purpose for these silly questions.

dennis13030
07-11-2008, 01:13 PM
Let's take it a bit further. Correct me if/when I am wrong or misguided.

During electrolysis, an electron is stripped from a H2O molecule, thus breaking the bond of the H2 and the O. Were does this electron go? Does it increase the capacitance of the water?

It seems we now have a bunch of electrons without a home.

Believe it or not, I actually have a purpose for these silly questions.

Hydrogen has one electron. This electron is shared in the H2O molecule. Since there are two atoms of hydrogen in a H2O molecule, there are 2 shared electrons. I think that the applied voltage and current end up pulling the H2O molecule apart and 2 electrons from the supplied current join with the oxygen atom(these electrons are substituted for the 2 that were shared).