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Painless
07-11-2008, 04:40 PM
On my way to work this afternoon, I was thinking about the situation of the hydrogen and oxygen bubbles being attracted to the electrodes and the subsequent issues with getting the newly created O and H molecules to let go of the electrodes and head off to where we need it. The main attracting factor (please correct me if needed, this is just an idea) seems to be the polarity, i.e. we know that the O is attracted to the positive electrode and the H to the negative.

What if a system was built that alternated the polarity of the electrodes, i.e. continually swapping which electrodes got the positive feed and which got the negative. My thought here is that when the polarity changed, the H and O molecules would then be attracted to the opposite electrode. If the switch was only for a few microseconds, this might effectively dislodge the molecules and start them on their way to the intake manifold.

I was thinking that it could be as simple as alternating the polarity for just a microsecond every second. A circuit of some description may be required, I even thought about a simpler solution using a rotor and brushes.

Has anyone else thought about this or tried it? Does anyone have any input or thoughts to share?

Russ.

oicu812
07-12-2008, 10:06 PM
I posted the same question about a week ago here.I know what you mean and i'm positive it would clear the plates and allow more surface area for electrolysis. i've searched for a solid state device that could glitch a reverse polarity for a split second but have come up empty.I supose you could use relays wired up reverse polarity . getting one to close and the other to open for a split second and than switch back .

Painless
07-12-2008, 10:45 PM
I considered the relay idea, but then also thought that the rate of switching would probably mean a very short life. I also thought about a rotor and brushes idea, where a spinning rotor with contact on the ends of a 'propeller' would brush against contacts. Only drawback to this idea I can think of is that it would be introducing a 'sparky' environment, probably close to our hydrogen.

Atechguy
07-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Why not just use small inverter and leave it on all the time higher voltage lower amps. I thought i read some one tried it and it produces lots of Hydrogen .Just a thought.:)

mikestrikes
07-13-2008, 01:10 PM
When I first tested HHO I used ALUM plates, one stay'd clean while the other got corroded and just gunky................. I swap'd leads to clean it off and it worked for that and seemed to knock off the bubbles.

So if we could have a set of relays and once a second swap polarity yes I see this working.....

Make the swap fast but keep it at that for a full second then swap back I think would do the best. But I'm wrong alot... :rolleyes:

Painless
07-13-2008, 01:32 PM
It's funny that you should mention aluminum plates, I went to Home Depot this morning on my way to work, only had about 10 minutes to spare and wanted to pick up some plates. I got to work and took a closer look and realized that I'd just wasted $11.35 on 10 ALUMINUM plates, not stainless steel. Annoying as I'm on a really tight budget here.

From what I've read about another HHO discovery, some guy worked out that aluminum will react with water to generate HHO without an electrical current, this is probably why you're getting the gunking.

Article is here: http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

I'm still thinking pretty hard about how to facilitate the polarity switching.

timetowinarace
07-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Aluminum, water and an acid(usually drain cleaner) will produce lots of hho. The mix is very volatile, hot and leaves a mess to clean up.

dennis13030
07-14-2008, 12:15 PM
I'm still thinking pretty hard about how to facilitate the polarity switching.

You could use a couple high power solid state relays but it will cost quite a bit$$$$. This will not "SHAKE" or "VIBRATE" anything though.

Stratous
07-14-2008, 01:56 PM
My two cents on this is as follows. Switching the polarity of the plates will hurt production. If you watch the liquid while the unit is running, you will notice that the water is moving. What you are seeing is the magnetic pull of the oxygen and hydrogen particles. The hydrogen molecules are attracted to the negative plate and the oxygen to the positive. While switching polarity may knock off the bubbles that are stuck, it will probably hurt overall production. Once the polarity switch is made, the magnetic field will change directions which means the water will have to slow, then reverse its direction. I have read something similar to this recently, I just cant remember the location of the article. Of course I could be smoking crack, and dont know WTF I am talking about too......:p

mikestrikes
07-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Of course I could be smoking crack, and dont know WTF I am talking about too......:p

Pass it over would ya !:cool:

You sure the water isnt moving with the flow of bubbles as they go up ?

Stratous
07-14-2008, 02:26 PM
Yes, I am sure that is why its moving. Still the water is moving because the hydrogen and oxygen are attracted to the neg and pos plates. If you switch that, then the water is going to have to change direction as well.

mikestrikes
07-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Yes, I am sure that is why its moving. Still the water is moving because the hydrogen and oxygen are attracted to the neg and pos plates. If you switch that, then the water is going to have to change direction as well.

So the farther they are apart the worse it would be then...... gotcha.

Painless
07-14-2008, 03:08 PM
I think Stratous makes a definite point for consideration as to why this might not work. I guess, as with everything here, the only way to know is to try it. Once I have a cell up and running and know the output, I'll try something (probably with manual switching to start with) and see how the output compares.

I would probably start with the majority of the time spent in one polarity with a very small 'flick' and back to the opposite every second or so.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. :):

ridelong
07-16-2008, 10:00 AM
I tried reversing the electrode polarity with a relay. Didn't seem to release any more bubbles, and gas production dropped significantly. Varying the frequency of the reversals did not make any difference either. Tested on a 12 plate, two sets of 6, +nnnn-, 316 ss, 0.067 spacing.

kirbysiville
07-16-2008, 11:08 PM
Hi, I'm new to this forum. I was reading about your ideas concerning breaking free the bubbles from the plates. This reminded me of something I watched on UTube last night. The video is titled "Hydrogen HHO Four Series Clamshell Design (Ultrasonic Test)"
I think this guy has the solution to your question.

countryboy18
07-16-2008, 11:30 PM
if you watch more videos on utube u will find one that say that the vibrations dont realy increse the out put of the cell.

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 02:07 AM
I believe countryboy18 is correct.

HHO that is trapped inside bubbles before they burst on the surface of the electrolyte only slow down the initial production.

Lets walk through an electrolyzer startup.

The initial conditions are;
1. No Current flow
2. No bubbles trapped or otherwise

Next, current is applied and bubbles start to form on the plates. When these bubbles become large enough, they break free of the electrodes and rise to the surface. Some of the bubbles burst right away while other bubbles on the surface gather together and take some time to burst. As long as the current is constant, the bubbles will continue forming on the electrodes at the same rate(excluding temperature changes). Shaking the electrodes will not change the rate of gas production. Shaking may reduce the initial delay between the start of gas production and release of the gas(bubble burst).

Atm0spher
08-20-2008, 03:36 PM
i saw a guy on youtube using a mini sonic deal out of one of those mist things. you will have to look it up it is unbelivable how quickly that got rid of the bubbles i will try to find the link. its worth searching on your own i promise. good lick

Atm0spher
08-20-2008, 03:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hVRmVtiprc

timetowinarace
08-21-2008, 01:36 PM
youtube is a poor source for information.

It's good for enternainment purposes.

fuelcommander
08-26-2008, 09:29 AM
Alternating the current is helpful for plate longevity. Every three months i switch my polarity and this will make my plates last a really long time. Im also controling the current and using a one GPM pump with a filter.

DOUBLEL
09-24-2008, 12:26 PM
Alternating the current is helpful for plate longevity. Every three months i switch my polarity and this will make my plates last a really long time. Im also controling the current and using a one GPM pump with a filter.

what kind of pump are You using?

Kobudoman
10-07-2008, 03:40 PM
In the swimming pool industry we alternate polarity to keep our plates clean. Build up that forms on one side tends to drop off when the polarity is switched. The question I have is this:
It's said that a catalyst layer develops , that's why production increases as the cell gets "broken in" , will the polarity change remove or desolve this catalyst layer?

Static HHO
10-21-2008, 12:07 PM
If the goal is to increase production, by shaking off existing bubbles stuck on the plates, this has been tried, with no success. By that I mean, no increase in HHO production. A utube vid shows a guy who had installed an ultrsonic devise to his generator. When turned on, the fine/small bubbles joined together into large bubbles, the electrolyte solution cleared up but he reported no increase in HHO production. Ergo, good idea but not one to elevate the technology. Cheers, HHO-ing in N. GA

hg2
10-21-2008, 04:43 PM
The only efficient way to shake the bubbles off the plates that I know is using a resonance drive unit that accually forces the bubbles to form between the plates.This is a very complicated system though,this pdf shows how it's configured on page 106.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

daddymikey1975
11-01-2008, 07:57 AM
I suppose one way to test it easily, is to get a transformer that'll plug into the wall and give us 12V AC output. connect it to your generator and compare it to 12V DC (production)

Painless, you could remove the rectifier portion of your microwave power supply for this very easily and try it with your amoeba cell.

just an idea.

Stevo
11-01-2008, 11:45 AM
Painless, you could remove the rectifier portion of your microwave power supply for this very easily and try it with your amoeba cell.

just an idea.

Err. I'm thinking Boyntonstu is the Amoeba cell guy. You might ask him.

rboos
01-20-2010, 12:03 AM
I suppose one way to test it easily, is to get a transformer that'll plug into the wall and give us 12V AC output. connect it to your generator and compare it to 12V DC (production)

Painless, you could remove the rectifier portion of your microwave power supply for this very easily and try it with your amoeba cell.

just an idea.

Yes, just use AC and the polarity would be changing 50 or 60 times per sec... excellent idea of comparing 12vDc and 12vAC .... that would define if reversing polarity would accelerate the HHO production... has anyone tried?

Hmmm maybe the fast pace of 50/60 won't allow enough time for the H and O to split onto each electrode... but I am curious to know what would happen..

Polarity change = longer electrode life

kbwakesk8
10-03-2011, 03:11 PM
all you need is two relays and a flasher for blinkers to flip flop polarity . with a variable resister you can adjust the timing of the flasher.

but using the ultrasonic pong fogger is a good idea it causes the bubbles to implode releasing them from the plate.

RTJ_Nair
02-16-2012, 01:35 AM
Sorry guys, I have missed reading this discussion and have posted a topic on similar lines,

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=7519

There are few advantages I believe,

The formation of alternate bubbles ie O and H on the same plate due to alternating current will aid the lighter, more nos of H bubbles, to push the heavier O bubble up more quickly. The faster bubbles coming up will replenish electrolyte and increase the electrolyte density between the plates (assuming a constant formation of bubbles at a given amperage). If the bubbles delay and remain in the electrolyte, there will be a scarcity of electrolyte towards the top-end, between the plates, leading to lesser gas generation.

The frequency of alternation is something to be researched. Also, need to find out if we can use ultrasonic frequencies to generate cavitation in the liquid and thus aid the formation of bigger bubbles as is being done in ultrasonic cleaning systems. There is a brief article, in the below link, though a little off topic, will give some insight.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j150182a001

However, they have found better yield at lower frequencies.

Reversing PWM DC is no big deal. A well designed MOSFET H-bridge can do that.

RTJ Nair

Darrell
03-03-2012, 10:07 AM
That sounds like a great project and can't wait to see the performance. Keep us updated to the progress. "D"

AnActualPhysicist
03-07-2012, 01:59 AM
Also, need to find out if we can use ultrasonic frequencies to generate cavitation in the liquid and thus aid the formation of bigger bubbles as is being done in ultrasonic cleaning systems.

Hi! This is my first time posting here, I am a senior physics major about to graduate from college.

Just thought I'd point out that using ultrasonic generators could be extremely dangerous. If it is at a resonance frequency of your container, bubbles could be trapped at the wave antinodes and heated to many thousands of degrees. This would provide an ignition source inside the generator, which is obviously a very bad idea!


If you watch the liquid while the unit is running, you will notice that the water is moving. What you are seeing is the magnetic pull of the oxygen and hydrogen particles.
This is very unlikely. While water molecules are polar at the small scale, on the macro scale they are neutral, and therefore experience no net force from an electric field.

AnActualPhysicist
03-07-2012, 02:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A

I made one of those a little over a year ago. It has nothing to do with the charge of water. In fact you can make that type of generator with nearly any liquid.

AnActualPhysicist
03-08-2012, 01:00 AM
Ok, so how do you explain the phenomena?

Basically the buckets at the bottom and cans the water pours through have a very small capacitance. As the water starts to fall through the two nozzles, any tiny initial charge imbalance becomes amplified in a feed back effect. This is because the initial charge imbalance puts a voltage on the cans, which are switched as shown in the video. This voltage induces opposite charges to build up in the corresponding nozzles, which fall into the opposite water buckets.

The effect is an exponentially increasing voltage in the system, at least until it discharges. By exponential I mean literally exponential, as in the exponential function. The system is described by the simple differential equation dQ/dt=C*Q, where C is some constant.

This effect has nothing to do with the dipolar nature of water. It's just surface charge, meaning any liquid can be used. Water is used in the demonstration simply because it is convenient (i.e. doesn't make a mess).

RTJ_Nair
03-08-2012, 06:58 AM
Ultrasonics are currently used extensively for cleaning and the principle behind is to induce cavitation. We are talking about power in the range of just 30 to 50 watts and not something too much to cause an explosion. I do have a small ultrasonic cleaner that could hold about 250ml of water and have been using it since some time for cleaning mechanical parts including small metal plates.

There are 3 cases to research regarding the alternating current application in a cell,

Duty cycle=50% (to start with)

CASE-1
The gating frequency between 0.5 to 10Hz.
PWM=1 to 10KHz (find resonance here ?)
Alternating Frequency=0 ie; no reversal of current direction and is unidirectional.

CASE-2
The gating between 0.5 to 10Hz
PWM=10Hz to 500Hz
Alternating current Frequency=10Hz to 500Hz synced for forward and reverse polarity with the PWM within a gate pulse ie 50% of the time period (to find resonance here or could be difficult ?).
Note: The frequency is low taking into consideration the commutation delay and the cell time constant ie amount of retention time needed to regain cell activity when current is reversed.

CASE-3
The gating between 0.5 to 10Hz
PWM=1 to 10KHz
Alternating Frequency=0.5 to 100Hz, synced to alternate with every gate cycle ie the current pulses will flow in one direction during the first rising edge gate pulse and then reversed during the second rising edge gate pulse and continues alternately (find resonance here ?).

RTJ Nair

AnActualPhysicist
03-08-2012, 10:16 AM
Well, if you're running it under 10kHz then chances are you won't have any resonances. Generally resonances will occur above 20kHz because that's where you start to have excited resonance states, which grow in number very quickly.

I'm just concerned that if you actually induce bubble trapping and thus cavitation, that the extreme heat generated in the localized volume could eventually ignite all of the gas, which would be nasty. As far as I know wattage isn't a good indicator of when this will happen (although obviously it helps).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence

RTJ_Nair
03-08-2012, 11:37 AM
Not true, resonance depends on the cell structure/construction (plates, tubular, spiral..etc)...if you scan youtube, u will find many instances to corroborate this fact. In short, it is a function of the cell capacitance, its ohmic resistance and your fabricated inductor design and also whether you want to run a parallel or series circuit configuration. I have read people saying something between 3 to 5 KHz for their cell designs. Also, I don't foresee any ignition risks at this low frequency and power.

I am at the final stages of development. Have done the dry-cell part, circuit layout (microcontroller based) and currently modifying the software code. I have completely changed my strategy, ie from a current-driven-cell to a voltage-driven-cell. Hence, I might have to redo the cell construction altogether. My vague guess is that a tubular cell might perform better as far as resonance is concerned.

Check the below youtube link about ultrasonics,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kpswB6Ae-o

RTJ Nair

AnActualPhysicist
03-08-2012, 03:14 PM
Check the below youtube link about ultrasonics,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kpswB6Ae-o

RTJ Nair
That effect he's seeing, where "the bubbles collide" is an indication that he is setting up a standing wave in the container. That is exactly what I'm concerned about. Bubbles in a standing wave tend to experience volume fluctuations on the order of 100-1000 times. During compression, the gases inside can be heated to well over 10,000 degrees F.

By the way, you can calculate the resonance frequencies and excited modes using spherical harmonics, or cylindrical harmonics as the case may be. Even if it doesn't exactly match the shape of your container, you can still get a pretty good idea of which frequencies might be dangerous. I.e. try to avoid any eigenfrequencies of the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylindrical_harmonics

I would have very serious reservations about copying this - at the very least don't run the ultrasonics at a frequency where you see this effect taking place.

AnActualPhysicist
03-08-2012, 03:23 PM
Not true, resonance depends on the cell structure/construction (plates, tubular, spiral..etc)...if you scan youtube, u will find many instances to corroborate this fact. In short, it is a function of the cell capacitance, its ohmic resistance and your fabricated inductor design and also whether you want to run a parallel or series circuit configuration.

Just thought I'd add that while electrical resonance may depend on capacitance, inductance, and resistance, mechanical resonance does not. Mechanical resonance depends on the geometry of the vessel and the speed of sound in the medium. And the effect with bubbles you are seeing there is a purely mechanical resonance.

Madsceintist
03-08-2012, 05:03 PM
Just my two cents, but you can only put so much logic and pinned down physics on this with HHO, you can definitely over think and miss something !! The type of fluid you use does make a difference in different ways. Different resistance. Ease of flow. And contaminants, which changes resistance. That experiment wouldn't work if the water was just dripping due to the lack of flow of electrons. The faster the water the faster the spark occurs. I would think that the spark would increase in voltage as well.

AnActualPhysicist
03-08-2012, 05:19 PM
Just my two cents, but you can only put so much logic and pinned down physics on this with HHO, you can definitely over think and miss something !! The type of fluid you use does make a difference in different ways. Different resistance. Ease of flow. And contaminants, which changes resistance. That experiment wouldn't work if the water was just dripping due to the lack of flow of electrons. The faster the water the faster the spark occurs. I would think that the spark would increase in voltage as well.

Well certainly some liquids will do better than others. The point I was trying to make was that water isn't a "special" liquid the way other people seemed to think it was. Actually if you wanted to optimize that voltage generator, I would imagine that vegetable oil might work best, since it can break up into smaller droplets and would flow more uniformly. I doubt the resistance really matters though - keep in mind that the capacitance of the generator is extremely tiny, meaning that the amount of charge required to reach a high voltage is actually pretty negligible.

Madsceintist
03-08-2012, 05:28 PM
HUM time for an experiment ............... I get back with this very shortly ...........:cool:

AnActualPhysicist
03-08-2012, 09:59 PM
HUM time for an experiment ............... I get back with this very shortly ...........:cool:

Good luck. It's surprisingly hard to get it working, so try not to get frustrated.

AnActualPhysicist
03-09-2012, 02:56 AM
So, if there is no net force from an electric field, why the water spreads out before the spark?

Neutral water will experience no net force from an electric field. The polar nature of water doesn't constitute a net charge, so an applied electric field only affects the net alignment of the molecules (which is irrelevant in the context of electrolysis). Read the post I was responding to on page 4 and what I'm talking about will make sense.

With respect to the water-bucket generator, the water droplets ARE charged as a result of electrostatic induction. Basically the open ended cans are highly charged, and attract the opposite charge in the nearby water streams. Once the voltages (i.e. electric fields) become strong enough, the water is visibly pulled towards the cans, spreading out as you said.

I apologize if my explanation is confusing. Here's an illustration, hopefully it will help:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Kelvin_water_dropper.PNG

myoldyourgold
03-09-2012, 03:20 AM
so an applied electric field only affects the net alignment of the molecules

Can you explain this a little more. What do you mean by net alignment?

RTJ_Nair
03-09-2012, 07:12 AM
Just thought I'd add that while electrical resonance may depend on capacitance, inductance, and resistance, mechanical resonance does not. Mechanical resonance depends on the geometry of the vessel and the speed of sound in the medium. And the effect with bubbles you are seeing there is a purely mechanical resonance.

Exactly, what I was referring to was exciting the cell with an electrical frequency and achieve resonance. The use of ultrasonics was using mechanical vibration generated by a piezo transducer. However, the electrical highvoltage frequency acting on the cell also produces mechanical vibrations. The three cases that I have mentioned earlier need to be explored. A pictorial summary is herewith attached for reference.

RTJ_Nair

AnActualPhysicist
03-09-2012, 01:39 PM
A H2O molecule is a dipole. The means that the charge is not balanced. The oxygen atom tends to pull electrons away from the hydrogen, making it slightly negatively charged, and the hydrogens become slightly positively charged. Here's a picture to illustrate this point:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/H2O_molecule_scheme_of_dipole.png
Normally water molecules are randomly aligned; the dipole could be pointing in any direction. However, if you put an electric field across them, they will feel a torque. The molecules will tend to rotate to align with the electric field. Note that this is a statistical effect - the alignments of individual molecules are still random, but they are simply more likely to be pointing along the electric field.

*Random Spiel*
An interesting result of this is that under a sufficiently high electric field, this should reduce the heat capacity of water. This is because rotation is a "degree of freedom" which can be used to store energy, and if you remove it the water should change temperature more rapidly with changes in total energy. I imagine the field required would be very very strong though.


However, the electrical highvoltage frequency acting on the cell also produces mechanical vibrations.
Forgive me, I'm quite new here so I haven't had time to read many threads. But I was under the impression that AC voltages don't work for electrolysis. Unless you're planning to use a small amplitude AC voltage with a large DC offset, like rectified AC with a smoothing capacitor. But wouldn't that just be electrically inefficient?

I guess my question is, do the bubbles attached to the plates actually lower the production rate? Have you actually measured a consistent and significant reduction in amperage when the bubbles appear? Are you certain that the two are really correlated, and what supporting evidence do you have?

Based on my knowledge of electricity I am having a very hard time seeing how bubbles could significantly impact the total resistance of the cell.

**Be aware that I'm not attacking you. I just want to get to the heart of the matter and examine it analytically.**

**Also, I wasn't able to open that file you linked, not sure why. Could you re-upload it as a pdf?**

myoldyourgold
03-09-2012, 02:28 PM
Bubble occlusion in extreme cases can be seen on the plates in the form of dark rings. What happens is the current / ions pass on the outside of the bubbles not through them and if one is stuck then current is concentrated on a very small area and excess heat is generated and shows up as a dark ring the size and shape of the bubble. Bubbles are insulators and only one bubble can form in one spot at a time. The sooner it can move off the sooner another can form. I am not a physicist but have seen the results of bubble occlusion first hand. If the whole surface is covered with bubbles that are not moving the reactor would be very inefficient and ion movement would be next to nil. This is one reason the gap between the cathode and anode has to be in relation to the amount of amps/gas being made or it acerbates the problem.

AnActualPhysicist
03-09-2012, 03:00 PM
Bubble occlusion in extreme cases can be seen on the plates in the form of dark rings. What happens is the current / ions pass on the outside of the bubbles not through them and if one is stuck then current is concentrated on a very small area and excess heat is generated and shows up as a dark ring the size and shape of the bubble. Bubbles are insulators and only one bubble can form in one spot at a time. The sooner it can move off the sooner another can form. I am not a physicist but have seen the results of bubble occlusion first hand. If the whole surface is covered with bubbles that are not moving the reactor would be very inefficient and ion movement would be next to nil. This is one reason the gap between the cathode and anode has to be in relation to the amount of amps/gas being made or it acerbates the problem.

Oh, that's very interesting. If a dark ring shows up, then doesn't that indicate that a high current is flowing along the surface of the bubble? Perhaps the ion density is higher on the surface. This seems to be suggested by these articles:

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html
http://www.free-energy-info.com/P6.pdf

But I have to ask again, have you actually seen a significant effect on the cell current after controlling for temperature/voltage fluctuations?

Edit: Oh, I just realized that I was somewhat repeating what you said. Just wanted to be clear though, if the ion density was not greater at the surface, you wouldn't get burn marks.

myoldyourgold
03-09-2012, 05:11 PM
This is much more complex than what meets the eye. Water comes in all kinds. By this I mean other chemicals, minerals, type of electrolyte etc in the water used in electrolysis. This all changes the dynamics of what actually is happening. Because of this I buy distilled water which has been distilled once and then run it through my own distiller or double distill tap water and you would be surprised at the oily substances that gets left in the distiller and has to be cleaned each time. Distilled water works like a sponge and should never be stored in plastic. Now you understand how there can be many different phenomenon/interactions going on both in the electrolysis process and any magnet field interactions based more than just water but the amount of other materials/chemicals. If you mean by "voltage fluctuation" frequency through a PWM I have to say no I have not but that does not mean there is none. If you mean by reduced or more voltage per active area then I have to say yes. Remember electrolyte is non ohmic. (Do not ask me to explain that please). This affects what happens in the reactor in each cell. The center cells in a stack run hotter and there is more ion movement than the outer cells. As voltage is increased heat is also increased making the electrolyte less resistive to ion movement and thus draws more amps. This, if not controlled, will cause thermal runaway and possibly melt wires etc. This can also happen where voltage remains the same. If you go the other way the lower the voltage the less heat there is, the less amps it will draw and the less gas will be produced. The ideal spot between 1.24 volts and 2.7 volts per cell depends on many things like; the active surface area, type of material, electrode preparation, electrolyte concentration, pressure in each cell, connections, how thoroughly/equally current saturates the anode and cathode, location of ports, gas flow, magnetic field interference, ambient temperature, if it is a bipolar or unipolar reactor, deuterium concentration, current leakage, just to name a few. This I am sure you are well aware of. Each one of these and many more have to be taken into consideration in order to really answer your question properly and accurately. There is an optimum voltage and electrolyte concentration for every reactor. There is also some trade offs to achieve what ever your goal is. Now that I have muddied up the water I had better take a back seat and learn form those that have the formal training and background which I do not. LOL

AnActualPhysicist
03-09-2012, 06:43 PM
I know what you mean by "non ohmic" and runaway heating. I do think you're overcomplicating things though. For example, simple external resistance will prevent thermal runaway. I'm not sure why pressure would have an effect, since water is incompressible in this context.

Obviously I'm new at this. I'm not a chemist, so the electrolyte stuff is not well-known to me (beyond the approximate linearity of conductivity/amount). I have no idea about how deuterium would affect anything. And obviously I haven't had much time to look into more exotic plate arrangments / shapes. I only started looking at electrolysis at all about a week ago.


Now that I have muddied up the water I had better take a back seat and learn form those that have the formal training and background which I do not. LOL
There's no need for sarcasm... I'm not trying to talk down to anybody here, I just want to go at things in a systematic way. If you make a claim that bubbles degrade the efficiency of the reactor, then the least you can do is verify it properly (i.e. show that current decreases under conditions of constant temperature and voltage), since it isn't obviously true from a mathematical perspective (which I will provide shortly).

AnActualPhysicist
03-09-2012, 07:53 PM
Ok, so here's a really simple mathematical analysis of the bubbles VS current issue:

Treating bubbles as cubes for simplicity, I split things into two regions, the Bubble Plane and the Open Plane.

In the Bubble Plane we have:

eA = sidelength^2 - b^2 where eA = "effectiveArea"
Resistance1 = rho * (b / eA)

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc408/Colin_Marcus/bubble2.png

In the Open Plane we have:

rL = totalLength - b
Resistance2 = rho * (rL / sideLength^2)

And finally:

totalResistance = Resistance1 + Resistance2

So what does this tell us? I'll plug in some numbers:

sidelength=1, rho=1, totalLength=1
So we are looking at a 1x1x1 cube total volume. We can get the resistance with no bubbles by simply setting b=0, which gives:

TotalResistance = 1 Ohm

Now let's set the bubble side length to 1/2 (which is really huge).

TotalResistance = 1.17

So even with a truly enormous bubble, the resistance increases by only 17%. Let's look at this with more realistic numbers:

sidelength=1, rho=1, totalLength=2 which indicates the distance between the plates better, and gives a bubble-less resistance of 2.

Using the more reasonable b=.1, we get:

TotalResistance = 2.001 or a .05% increase in resistance due to bubbles

So as far as I can tell, bubbles don't have a significant impact on the efficiency of an electrolytic cell. This is why I'm being skeptical.

RTJ_Nair
03-09-2012, 10:09 PM
Forgive me, I'm quite new here so I haven't had time to read many threads. But I was under the impression that AC voltages don't work for electrolysis. Unless you're planning to use a small amplitude AC voltage with a large DC offset, like rectified AC with a smoothing capacitor. But wouldn't that just be electrically inefficient?

I guess my question is, do the bubbles attached to the plates actually lower the production rate? Have you actually measured a consistent and significant reduction in amperage when the bubbles appear? Are you certain that the two are really correlated, and what supporting evidence do you have?

Based on my knowledge of electricity I am having a very hard time seeing how bubbles could significantly impact the total resistance of the cell.

**Also, I wasn't able to open that file you linked, not sure why. Could you re-upload it as a pdf?**

Could you try changing the file extension to ".docx". The PDF file after conversion went to 250KB and was above the file size upload limit.

BTW, if you could open the file and refer to the three cases, for case-2, I am also doubtful as mentioned before but just wanted to try. I am well aware that an AC is detrimental to electrolysis since I have designed/prototyped a TDS meter in the past. Also, note the frequency in case-2 is comparatively very low (10 to 500Hz or should be taken even lower) and I want to try if it makes any difference. Recall that the gating pulses have very low frequency too. In Case-3, the alternation is delayed due to this. We need to find out if this delay can re-instate the cell back to a "t=0" state. If so, the alternation also works and hence will improve electrode life. All these cases will have to be explored.

The resistance acting in series within the cell that you were mentioning, though very small, could make a substantial voltage drop at higher currents as well as generate heat. This is one of the reason that I have inclined my thoughts towards a voltage driven cell instead of a current driven cell. I will initially start with pure distilled water for all 3 cases.

You will also notice that when the frequency is increased, the bubble size decreases and hence the bubble movement within the liquid slows down forming a cloudy situation in the water. Then density of the liquid decreases due to this and hence resistance increases. I mean, area decreases in the equation rho.L/A. Here perhaps, the ultrasonics (still only an option) will improve and was my contention.

RTJ_Nair

myoldyourgold
03-09-2012, 10:23 PM
There's no need for sarcasm... I'm not trying to talk down to anybody here, I just want to go at things in a systematic way. If you make a claim that bubbles degrade the efficiency of the reactor, then the least you can do is verify it properly (i.e. show that current decreases under conditions of constant temperature and voltage), since it isn't obviously true from a mathematical perspective (which I will provide shortly).

Please lighten up. There was no intent of sarcasm but was meant as a joke to show that I am less qualified than you to discuss this subject based on anything else other than my experience and a little study.

I am very poor in math as well so your explanation will require me to take algebra again. The last time was 50 years ago with not much use for it in between. LOL Laugh here!!

Let me try and put what I understand of your math which is very little into some simple language, and let us see if we can both help each other. You are welcome to correct me anytime you disagree and we can either learn together or agree to disagree and still continue. That is the only reason I even started to post on this thread. I am interested in learning why things that I and others build and test in the field work like they do so I can explain them to anyone that wants to know using sound science. I have fund that there might not be answers in the normal main stream science in some cases.

This is where math and some science and actual tests do not completely agree but there has to be a good reason. We can agree on there having to have a reason hopefully.

Your math does not take into consideration heat. This one factor distorts the whole primes to me. All around the bubble is exceeding the maximum amps per square inch of active area to avoid plate deterioration, CR6 being formed, and heat by concentrating in a very small ring/area around the bubble especially if they are big. This excessive amperage in a small area further destroys the carefully conditioned layer on the electrodes that has brought to the surface molybdenum and nickel in the stainless steal giving it much less resistance than the chromium, iron and other higher restive elements that were present before this process. This happens by exceeding .5 amps per active square inch. Two things happen resistance on the electrodes goes up and the resistance in the electrolyte goes down. Production and quality of the HHO suffers when this happens. Instead of increasing more gas with higher amps you produce more moisture and less gas that is less active on top of it. There is more in this process but will leave it for now. I am getting tired. LOL

The math I believe is correct but I will have to take your word for that but it does not consider the above.

Pressure and Deuterium

Pressure has a very important part to play in the reactor and I will just mention a couple. It helps control the level of electrolyte which helps control current leakage out of the exit ports. Pressure also helps maintain a more even bubble size discouraging larger bubbles from forming in the electrolyte helping prevent bubble occlusion and actually increase production.

Deuterium is a little more complex and suggest you do some research on electrolysis using deuterium. I will say this that there is some minute amount of deuterium in all water more in some and is separated in the electrolysis process by the fact that it is heaver and remains at the bottom. After 1000's of hours of use you can have electrolyte that has more deuterium than normal. I am not willing to go further than that though.

Some of what I have described is not totally understood by me but have had many conversations with individuals who are chemists, physicists, and they have confirmed much of it. I am still learning so have no claim to having all the answers and welcome any help you can offer using your expertise. Electrolysis is a chemical process and so is difficult for me to get a handle on all of it. Slow but sure is my game.

Do not forget to smile you look better and live longer. I can use a good joke right about know. LOL

myoldyourgold
03-09-2012, 10:52 PM
Nair Sir, if you have not seen this it might help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKqs5z2DrCk


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6637-electrolysis-accelerator.html

AnActualPhysicist
03-10-2012, 12:06 AM
Please lighten up. There was no intent of sarcasm but was meant as a joke to show that I am less qualified than you to discuss this subject based on anything else other than my experience and a little study.
Sorry, I read it totally the wrong way. And I will try to lighten up :p

The .docx worked for me. Interesting system there!

So here's a fundamental question on my end. I keep reading people talking about using pulsed waveforms to improve the efficiency/production rate, but I don't see how that would work. Similarly, I've read the claims about certain frequencies boosting electrolysis by directly splitting the water molecules. Given that a microwave oven operates at 2.45 GHz and is only able to make H2O roll around, it just doesn't sound plausible. Also, the vibrational frequencies of water all start off in the infrared range, which is just below visible light (and totally out of reach for electronics). So, do you know what those people are talking about, or are they just full of it?

So it's hard for me to know what the costs/benefits of the waveforms in that document might be, beyond maybe shaking off bubbles and giving the plates time to cool during the off cycle. I would imagine that the non-alternating versions would still be best, for the usual reasons.


The resistance acting in series within the cell that you were mentioning, though very small, could make a substantial voltage drop at higher currents as well as generate heat. This is one of the reason that I have inclined my thoughts towards a voltage driven cell instead of a current driven cell.
Oh, when I said "external resistance" I was referring to putting a high-power rheostat in series with the circuit. Having a minimum resistance in the circuit means that you can't overload it with current, even if the electrolyte resistance goes to zero. And I too am building my system as a voltage driven one, for the same reasons.

As for the ultrasonics, using frequencies around 1kHz or less should be safe, and very possibly a good idea. I guess it depends on whether the suspended bubbles are hanging out between the electrodes or not.

I agree that I didn't take heat into consideration. Having not yet experimented with my own system, I'll reserve comments on how it affects the electrodes for a later time, and take your word for it for the time being. With regards to moisture/steam, couldn't you run the output through a condenser and send the runoff back into the cell?


Pressure has a very important part to play in the reactor and I will just mention a couple. It helps control the level of electrolyte which helps control current leakage out of the exit ports. Pressure also helps maintain a more even bubble size discouraging larger bubbles from forming in the electrolyte helping prevent bubble occlusion and actually increase production.

This also sounds very interesting and again I'll wait until I've actually seen it.


Deuterium is a little more complex and suggest you do some research on electrolysis using deuterium. I will say this that there is some minute amount of deuterium in all water more in some and is separated in the electrolysis process by the fact that it is heaver and remains at the bottom. After 1000's of hours of use you can have electrolyte that has more deuterium than normal. I am not willing to go further than that though.
Yup, I confirmed that this is the case. Heavy water has a slightly higher boiling point than normal water, so it would tend to get concentrated as the normal water evaporates. I couldn't find any info on what would happen in the cell when the deuterium concentration is high though.

Oh with regards to that video... the only way to increase the electrolysis between a fixed number of plates by "10-15 times" is to increase the amps. Which is what happens when he adds a voltage waveform of 100V! Of course, he can't leave it on for long since the whole thing would heat up and melt down.

And finally, yes I would be very happy to continue discussing with you! Good night.

RTJ_Nair
03-10-2012, 12:08 AM
Many thanks myoldyourgold.

I haven't seen this youtube video before but have seen some of the ultrasonic cell enhancements. This seems close to what I was implying. What I could see outside the cell, the white box, looks like an electromagnet and the sound it produces seems to hover around 100Hz (50/60*2) or twice AC frequency. My first impression is that it is pumping in a lot of power to agitate the water molecules to cause the so called "electron avalanche" though I am not sure what that effect is. Surely it seems to have a significant bearing on the gas production.

Due to time limitations and other family commitments I am lagging behind schedule to complete the trial. I hope to get it going soon.

RTJ Nair

AnActualPhysicist
03-10-2012, 12:47 AM
The trajectory of the water changes. That implies forces.

Perhaps, but not electromagnetic ones.


I can not believe that I hear this from a "physicist". How will you define something "non ohmic"?...

I know enough physics, so you can go into deep details. Are you an American physicist?
A non-ohmic system is any system that does not strictly obey I=V/R. For example, a diode is a good example of a non-ohmic system. Below the critical voltage, it passes no current, but the current rapidly approximates ohm's law above that voltage.

An electrolytic cell is also non-ohmic, in the sense that the voltage/current relation can quickly become nonlinear, due to bubbles, thermal effects, etc. It is also probably nonlinear in the limit of very high frequencies, due to the build-up of ions around the electrolysis plates.

And yes, I am in the USA. I am messing around with electrolysis because I want to build a welding/cutting torch, and it seemed like a fun thing to play with for a few weeks.

myoldyourgold
03-10-2012, 01:53 PM
Hydrogen comes in two forms orthohydrogen and parahydrogen. The difference is the direction of the electron pair spin. If both are in the same direction it becomes orthohydrogen and the molecule is magnetic. It is my understanding that the surface that the gas is generated from can alter the percent of orthohydrogen which is the much more powerful of the the two. Normally in a well designed reactor the ratio is 75% ortho to 25% para at room temperature. Not being a physicist I have many question. This is one. If when water is split and the ortho molecule is magnetic then why can't you affect the water before the gas is made with magnetic fields? I use a reformer that is similar to the Ruskin patent and so does NASA to transform as much of the hydrogen to ortho as possible before it goes into the combustion chamber where it changes state releasing heat and forming much more powerful and highly reactive gases or in NASA's case just higher powered hydrogen/rocket fuel. The reason that NASA does this conversion at the last moment is because ortho can not be stored or compressed. When stored it changes naturally to para over time and if compressed self ignites at a pressures between 12 and 15 psi depending on the %. BE CAREFUL If some of this process can be done in the water/electrolyte before it is made so the percent of ortho is considerably more it could be a possible advantage. I am still not convinced that ortho can be more than 75% but do know it can be much less coming out of almost all of the reactors made and marketed. This is one of the reason so many see no gains no mater what they do. An ortho burning torch should be very interesting.:D

AnActualPhysicist
03-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Well, I just looked at the molecular energy/mole of ortho VS parahydrogen. The difference at room temperature is very small, about 5%. The difference between pure orthohydrogen and the equilibrium mixture at room temperature is less than 2%.


If when water is split and the ortho molecule is magnetic then why can't you affect the water before the gas is made with magnetic fields?
Well, if I understand your question correctly - hydrogen gas, i.e. H2 is going to have different spin states than H2O since they are different systems. Basically they are not related. So for most intents and purposes water is going to behave non-magnetically - since it is weakly diamagnetic, you could levitate it in a strong enough field, i.e. 10T (insanely strong). For weak fields, one of the main effects of magnetic fields is that it increases the evaporation rate slightly, which is probably not helpful.

So water is *slightly* magnetic (as is basically everything in the world), but to see anything happen you would need a solenoid with 1000's of turns and very high current. In other words, you would be better off just making more gas.


I use a reformer
What is a reformer?

I'm not really sure how you would go about making more orthohydrogen, other than making it in a very high-temperature cell. Are there other methods? (beyond trying to align the spins with a powerful magnet)

myoldyourgold
03-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Well, I just looked at the molecular energy/mole of ortho VS parahydrogen. The difference at room temperature is very small, about 5%. The difference between pure orthohydrogen and the equilibrium mixture at room temperature is less than 2%.

You are right but you have to take into consideration what happens when it gets into the combustion chamber. Ortho attaches itself to carbon atoms in hydrocarbon chains in the intake, and inters the combustion chamber where energy is released by an ortho to para conversion turning the hydrocarbon chains into simpler chains which are more reactive gases. This is claimed to be a catalytic effect caused by ortho. It is an exothermic reaction for sure. You be the judge of that. This is where the advantage of ortho is to para. The more ortho there is the more energy or the reverse less energy. Not being a chemist this is a simple explanation of how I understand it. I am sure it is much more complex than this but it is the best I can do.

Now put that aside and look at a reactor that is producing 50% less of ortho. How does this take place? When HHO gas is generated, the surface it is generated from has an effect upon the gas when generated. If that surface has been prepared to be comprised of predominantly detrimental CrO3, then the hydrogen that evolves from that surface will be predominantly parahydrogen. This has been measured and verified and is what happens when you use the commercial method of passivation of stainless steel. It forms a layer of CrO3. This is the main reason I have stopped this process where in the past I promoted passivation and used it my self. The gas will seek equilibrium over time but we are not storing it and are using it right away so there is an advantage to having it right out of the box.

Now a surface that is prepared to promote orthohydrogen is what is ideal or at least one that does not promote parahydrogen. There are other conditions in the reactor that also effect the percent of ortho to para but all others that I am aware of have not been proven other than to increase the efficiency of the reactor and thus results might have lead to some thinking that it was more ortho than just efficiency.


What is a reformer?

Well any devise that changes the gas after it leaves the reactor and before it inters the intake stream. It either increase the actual gas quantity and or the percent of ortho to para. I am not referring to an amount over the 75 to 25 percent ratio. I am still not convinced that is possible but some say it is. One such device is the S. L. Ruskin patent # 3,228,868. You can Google that. That patent though is referring to liquid hydrogen and the process does not quite work the same for gas. My reformer is proprietary and I am not a liberty to discuss it or how it works at this time. I will say that it has some aspects of the Ruskin patent but is totally different at the same time in how it works. It is not totally developed yet either. It will go through many changes before it is perfected.

myoldyourgold
03-12-2012, 12:45 PM
Nair, AnActualPhysicist, hhoelectronics, Here is a abstract you need to read. This should give you a better understanding of what is happening and why. If anyone has a full copy of this I would like to get my hands on it. Thanks D.O.G. for finding this.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500

This gives you the tools to help design the plate and ports. I have been saying for years that this is critical based on my testing.

RTJ_Nair
03-13-2012, 04:39 AM
Yes, definitely that article will be helpful in understanding the underlying principle. Surely,

1. Resonance (mechanical/electrical/magnetic)
2. Electric field
3. Magnetic field

indeed has a bearing on gas production. I have been watching the youtube and many articles regarding this subject. Some are fake but many are genuine. There is one in the youtube where a scientist even showing the "memory effect of water". Some demonstrating the magnetic effects from an N52 magnet. Water is "special" as far as my knowledge goes.

RTJ Nair

myoldyourgold
03-13-2012, 09:50 AM
For a broader range of understanding here is a number of documents that will help.

http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=444.new;topicseen#new

myoldyourgold
03-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Here is one more thanks to D.O.G. again.

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ce/enve/logan/publications/2011-Tokash&Logan-IJHE-author.pdf

myoldyourgold
03-13-2012, 02:54 PM
I vaguely remember some research I did about 5 years ago and I will try and find the references to it but I think I was studying on the topic of electrode polarization for one thing. There's some non-trivial behavior at the electrode-electrolyte boundary. There's charge buffering, so in part it acts similar to a capacitor. There's also threshold conduction, so in part it acts analogously to a forward-biased diode. In particular, the equivalent circuit of an electrode pair in electrolyte is not just a resistor. A much better electrical equivalence model for an electrolysis cell is a non-linear resistor with the Butler-Volmer characteristic. Now I will try and find my complete notes and post what pertains to this. This is beyond my pay scale though and most of it goes over my head. LOL

http://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/56814-REVISION-PLUS-CURRENT-ELECTRICITY

"NON-OHMIC CONDUCTOR : Non-ohmic conductor.Those conductors which do not obey Ohm’s law are called non-ohmic conductor e.g. vacuum tube, liquid electrolyte etc. NON-OHMIC CONDUCTOR"

http://science.jrank.org/pages/2324/Electrical-Conductivity-Non-ohmic-conductors.html


"Non-ohmic conduction is marked by nonlinear graphs of current vs. voltage. It occurs in semiconductor junctions, electrolytic solutions, some ionic solids not in solution, ionized gases, and vacuum tubes. Respective examples include semiconductor p-n diodes, battery acid or alkaline solutions, alkali halide crystals, the ionized mercury vapor in a fluorescent lamp, and cathode ray tubes."

RTJ_Nair
03-13-2012, 11:24 PM
Waaw...that was really a wealth of information myoldyourgold and appreciate it. You must have been doing a lot of reading and research all these years. I am going through each one of them and will try to catch up.

RTJ Nair

RTJ_Nair
03-15-2012, 11:26 AM
I am still not sure of whether to try out a parallel or series resonant circuit. The internet info says both will give a good yield. This is a hick-up for me to code the necessary features into the microcontroller and stuck at this point, but seems there are some possibilities to overcome this,

To have an "auto-tune" algorithm that slowly, a moving average technique, (based on time constant of cell, settable) raises the frequency based on the "amps" feedback and then identify the frequency when the min (for parallel resonance) or maximum (serial resonance) is achieved. Lock and then track it for any variation in cell parameters.

Any suggestion is welcome.

RTJ Nair

myoldyourgold
03-15-2012, 12:02 PM
Nair Sir, I am afraid I will not be able to help in this matter. I am still not convinced that frequency is a method that has consistent results with out a lot of electronics and even then it is iffy. The evidence is not conclusive enough for me to commit the time to learn all that is involved. Beside that the electronics are way over my head. LOL This does not mean it is not possible but just not a field I am comfortable with. I will be very interested in your developments so keep us updated. If I happen to read something that might help I will pass it along.

RTJ_Nair
03-16-2012, 04:23 AM
I understand, hhoelectronics.

The idea is to make something cost effective and at the same time improve gas production.

I have not spent more than 150 USD for the hardware (mechanical items, 7-plate cell & electronics). Since I also do the assembling and microcontroller coding, the costs are low for me. You can utilize these low cost electronic devices and improve a system for sure. Precision is required but have to be kept at a fit-for-purpose level. It's again, a matter of individual choice.

RTJ Nair

myoldyourgold
03-17-2012, 12:07 PM
The information in this article should help in your thinking of the potential of electrolysis.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/44845

RTJ_Nair
03-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Got this article and there is mention about parahydrogen and pulsed current cell enhancements.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/technical-stuff/136844d1242419951-water-powered-car-hho-generators-boost-milage-performance-following-file-recieved-dave-gravman-via-fax.doc&sa=U&ei=7vBpT9jUL4_SmAXYzpTxCA&ved=0CAgQFjACOAo&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEWMyZYohsNAFfELu_ggI6nf8xtfA

RTJ Nair

Stevo
03-23-2012, 11:37 PM
E.G. http://www.robotpower.com/products/MegaMotoPlus_info.html

Building an Arduino based system right now using this shield.

RTJ_Nair
04-12-2012, 01:29 AM
The BTN7971 seems to be a good half H-bridge. It can sustain high amperage too.

BTW, I have made the controller and have tried simulation by putting different values of capacitors in place of the cell. The inductor already has resistance and hence altogether forms an RLC circuit. The system identifies the resonance frequency and tracks it. I have coded it in such a way that when a change in cell parameters shifts the resonance frequency, the controller will find the new resonance and tracks it. Seems quite promising if all goes fine. I am yet to check this with a real cell.

Such multiple controllers can be put for each cell in a multi-cell arrangement and then independently tracked for resonance. The frequency sweep chosen is in the range between 2.7 & 20KHz. Stan Meyers has indicated resonance at about 5KHz for his cell.

RTJ Nair

RTJ_Nair
04-12-2012, 01:45 AM
Forgot to add one more info.

I have added a current reversal for few milliseconds after each gating dutycycle period. This is as suggested by "painless" in the beginning of this thread.

".....My thought here is that when the polarity changed, the H and O molecules would then be attracted to the opposite electrode. If the switch was only for a few microseconds, this might effectively dislodge the molecules and start them on their way to the intake manifold......"

Note: (microseconds seems too small compared to a gating pulse of 2 secs
being the default I have set and hence have put milliseconds, ie few cycles in the backward direction).

RTJ Nair

Hydrogenius
04-13-2012, 11:17 AM
Nice thread.

I've tried this before and I guess it worked but didn't help increase production.

Has anyone experienced this before? I used tap water with my electrodes in it and measured the voltage in the water using a multimeter and the voltage reading was zero.

I then powered up the electrodes and again measured the voltage in the water and I get some voltage reading very much lower than the voltage applied to the electrodes. Is there some stray electrons produced during the process?

myoldyourgold
04-13-2012, 02:30 PM
When ever you change polarity on the plates it destroys the catalytic layer and will produce more para hydrogen than ortho. Of course that is assuming that you have conditioned the plates correctly so it had a catalytic layer to begin with. 90% of reactors are not conditioned correctly so will not make much difference at all.

Passivation forms a layer that has no known value in the electrolysis process. In fact it will raise the resistance of the plates. That is why in the cleaning process which destroys the natural passivation layer, removes chromium, iron and exposes more Molybdenum and Nickle on the surface preparing it for conditioning. Then in the conditioning process it forms a catalytic layer. By doing this you increase the quality of the gas and because of the lower resistance of the surface the amount made per amp as well. This is more evident in Unipolar reactors.

If you have a catalytic reactor and you reverse the polarity you will have to go through the cleaning and conditioning procedure all over again and without taking it apart and reblasting the plates it will not be as good the second time around.

myoldyourgold
04-14-2012, 12:58 AM
There are many documents available on commercial passivation of stainless steel. Put simply it is the cleaning using either nitric acid or citric acid and then exposing the stainless steel to oxygen which starts a natural process of forming a thin "chemically inactive" layer of chromium oxide thus increasing the surface resistance but makes the stainless resistant to rust.

The cleaning and conditioning process uses NaOH and a controlled electrolysis to strip some of the iron and chromium from the surface exposing/leaving nickle and molybdenum. The conditioning still uses NaOH and a controlled electrolysis process which when done right forms a catalytic layer that promotes ortho and has a lower resistance. This catalytic layer composition is unknown to me but the results are. My guess is that the layer has something to do with molybdenum and might be a mixture of molybdenum and chromium oxide but I really do not know for sure and might not have any chromium oxide in it. It seems to be something that sodium hydroxide promotes.

Hydrogenius
04-14-2012, 12:00 PM
I've used SS304 in my previous tests and I thought it was the best. There are cheaper and better materials out there.

Stevo
04-15-2012, 01:03 AM
The way I have done this:

1) Use high concentration of NaOH (20%) and electrolyze in a well vented area until the plates stop producing iron/chromium oxide deposits. It will be obvious to you what this looks like once the water turns fairly dark. Also suggested to periodically drain and filter the electrolyte so that redeposition does not occur.

2) Rinse the plates with distilled water very well and then electrolyze in KOH (5-28%) solution. *I personally prefer closer to 5% as 28% is much more dangerous. At this point, you should probably be experiencing pretty clear water that will lightly yellow over time.

So the total cleansing and conditioning time, depending on your schedule, could vary wildly. 1-3 weeks or more.

I didn't believe that any sort of layer would be formed, but I was wrong. From what I remember; the anode will have a golden layer and the cathode will have a dark velvety layer.

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2122&d=1334466182

And trust me; the golden layer does NOT come off without abrasion or chemicals like Hcl acid. :)

RTJ_Nair
04-15-2012, 03:55 AM
The coating indeed protects the plates from further corrosion as well as can act like a catalyst.

The concept I was referring was to use very low current and high voltage and then attain the maximum production using cell resonance. The current systems including the PLL that I have come across for HHO in the net does not compensate for changes in cell parameters or the frequency will have to be manually adjusted for resonance. The PLL locks the frequency but will not necessarily mean at resonance at any given point of time due to various parameters affecting the cell eg; 1. Temperature 2. Coating that forms due to electrolysis 3. Change in water conductivity 3. Deterioration (due to aging) in plate geometry etc;

The current reversal was defaulted at 3 CP (a settable parameter named cell-period) ie; 2milliSeconds. If you have an ON gating set at 1 sec, ie the period of "2/1000" is quite a very very low value to have any detrimental effect on the plates I believe.

One way to reduce deposits is to use distilled water. The best way is to find out or quantify the gas production with and without the current reversal that was referred earlier in this thread. However, I will have to go ahead based on intuition and luck.

RTJ Nair

myoldyourgold
04-15-2012, 12:23 PM
The current reversal was defaulted at 3 CP (a settable parameter named cell-period) ie; 2milliSeconds. If you have an ON gating set at 1 sec, ie the period of "2/1000" is quite a very very low value to have any detrimental effect on the plates I believe.

One way to reduce deposits is to use distilled water. The best way is to find out or quantify the gas production with and without the current reversal that was referred earlier in this thread. However, I will have to go ahead based on intuition and luck.

Nair Sir, I have not tested the the changing of polarity so quickly. It is beyond my ability and time available with other important testing going on, but I am assuming that the continued changing even in milliseconds will only delay the eventual deterioration of the catalytic layer. This layer when done right is one of the more important factors in achieving gains in the internal combustion engine in fuel used and the reduction in pollutants including NOX. Recent tests in a CARB approved lab has proved this. The catalytic layer is formed even with double distilled water. In fact the cleaner the water the better the quality of the layer. I have seen the layer come off with reversing the polarity and using high amperage to speed up the results. It literally flakes off. In the cleaning process it is important to continually change or filter out any impurities from the electrolyte and is a slow process but the rewards are high when combined with the proper conditioning. Giving it enough time the electrolyte remains clear with no more impurities coming from the electrodes in the final stages of cleaning.

I would be very interested in your results. How long this would delay the destruction of any catalytic layer under these conditions is unknown to me and would be interesting if my assumption is correct and if wrong even more important. Keep me posted.

I am more interested in changing the state of the water in a way that it wants to come apart "quicker" without using any energy from the engine or source that needs replacing like a battery. Quicker is not easier and in theory does not violate Faraday!! I have had some preliminary measurable results but I am not convinced that it is enough yet to be worth while without further testing.

RTJ_Nair
04-16-2012, 04:27 AM
Yes myoldyourgold, point noted. It seems the sudden current reversal could hamper the coating and cause its dislodging from the plates. I have re-written the code whereby this feature defaults to "NO" but be enabled on-the-fly. We will try both scenarios and see the difference.

My hick-up is that I don't have passivated/conditioned plates and instead will try with normal 304SS (cheaper) plates for the time being. The results can then be extended to reformed 316L plates if necessary.

The net is full of genuine and fake information and often difficult to find the truth. Being a newbie, I am keeping fingers crossed.

I have recently come across an info which seemingly convince me that the resonance is achieved between 200Hz to 3KHz for a setup that can easily be rigged up. I will have to change my earlier assumption ie the range from 2.7K to 20KHz to this one.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm

Here, the cell capacitance (tubular) was found to be somewhere between 2 and 6 nF.

RTJ Nair

myoldyourgold
04-16-2012, 11:10 AM
Nair Gee, please do not take my comments in a way that will miss direct you from your experiments. A Meyer resonance type reactor is totally different to the simi brute force reactors that I am working on and many things do not cross apply. Continue on in your quest. The coating that Meyer mentions in his setup is totally different than what I have referenced. You seem to have a good handle on what you are doing so keep us informed. I will be very interested in following your progress.

tweakedlogic
07-12-2012, 03:36 AM
You know cheap car audio amplifiers output a/c. The frequency rate changes based on input frequency. So you get a small bridgeable amp or mono block, pick a frequency that gives you the highest production, and play that into the amp. You can either build a frequency generator for a few dollars or maybe use an old mp3 player on repeat.

You will have to pay attention to resistance though. Most audio amps are not "high current" which in car audio means if load is lower than 4 Ohms, it's too much. Even if the amp is outputting 100 amps, if it's not stable below 4 Ohms, its not a high current amp. Some amps are stable to 1/2 Ohm though. A week or less of browsing craigslist should be enough to find a good deal on an amp to try this out.

Edit: I failed to mention that a speaker will change the resistance for different frequencies. A 4 Ohm rating is the nominal reading. So even if your cell has a lower reading than what the amp says it can handle, the cell is not a speaker, but the amp might not know the difference. since you will only be "playing" one frequency, you might be able to get away with it.