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Smith03Jetta
07-15-2008, 04:47 PM
There is a myth out there that HHO use can damage your vehicle.

Other than those urban legends about people who have left their HHO Device running and cranked up the vehicle causing the heads to blow up, are there any substantiated stories of anybody damaging a vehicle with normal HHO use?

Has anybody cracked a piston?

Has anybody had to rebuild their engine because of it?

I would like to put an end to this myth once and for all. It is either a damaging thing to do to your engine or it is beneficial.

I don't want to hear arguments that it won't damage your vehicle. I want undeniable proof that using HHO has damaged a vehicle and what the circumstances were. If anybody has the name of a vehicle owner who's car was damaged, please let me know.

cougar gt-e
07-15-2008, 05:02 PM
If anyone has direct knowledge also please add if the use HHO systems will cause a dealer to void your warranty.

(Sorry for the slight highjack...)

Packer Fan

hatch_m
07-15-2008, 11:44 PM
I am a mechanic for a ford and chrysler dealer, and i can tell you that it does void your warranty. But it all depends on what your dealer says. If its in the affected system etc. I mean if you warranty problem is in the door locks they cant say that you affected it but if its in the engine/engine controls, or in your electrical system they could say that it is an aftermarket modification which will void your warranty. Thought I would let you know.

daveczrn
07-16-2008, 01:49 AM
I am a mechanic for a ford and chrysler dealer, and i can tell you that it does void your warranty. But it all depends on what your dealer says. If its in the affected system etc. I mean if you warranty problem is in the door locks they cant say that you affected it but if its in the engine/engine controls, or in your electrical system they could say that it is an aftermarket modification which will void your warranty. Thought I would let you know.

They have to prove that it's the HHo system that caused the problem in the end. If they can't do it, then there is no issue.

Smith03Jetta
07-16-2008, 08:10 AM
I appreciate the opinion of a certified mechanic, don't get me wrong. I don't want to hear about hypothetical "Will it void my warranty" stuff. I want to know if anybody has ever had their engine damaged by HHO. I would also like to know if a dealership has actually refused to cover actual engine damage caused by HHO. FYI, i know of an actual car dealership in Monroe, Louisiana that is installing HHO systems on NEW, warrantied automobiles. If they turned around and stated that an engine damaged by the HHO system they installed would void the warranty, they would be in a heap of trouble.

Here are links to the Ford dealership that is installing Hydrogen on Demand systems for their customers:
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-gas-savers/hixon-autoplex-installing-hydrogen-generators-for-cars/

Here is a link that is interesting as well.
http://www.masterautotech.com/ has a link to http://www.preignitioncc.com/able41/index.htm

He installs Hydrogen on Demand and a Pre-ignition catalytic converter that in testing has pushed a V8 to over 200 miles per gallon.

daveczrn
07-16-2008, 10:57 AM
I appreciate the opinion of a certified mechanic, don't get me wrong. I don't want to hear about hypothetical "Will it void my warranty" stuff. I want to know if anybody has ever had their engine damaged by HHO. I would also like to know if a dealership has actually refused to cover actual engine damage caused by HHO. FYI, i know of an actual car dealership in Monroe, Louisiana that is installing HHO systems on NEW, warrantied automobiles. If they turned around and stated that an engine damaged by the HHO system they installed would void the warranty, they would be in a heap of trouble.

Here are links to the Ford dealership that is installing Hydrogen on Demand systems for their customers:
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-gas-savers/hixon-autoplex-installing-hydrogen-generators-for-cars/

Here is a link that is interesting as well.
http://www.masterautotech.com/ has a link to http://www.preignitioncc.com/able41/index.htm

He installs Hydrogen on Demand and a Pre-ignition catalytic converter that in testing has pushed a V8 to over 200 miles per gallon.




any idea on the price of that PICC setup? it's diffrent so maybe there is something there for better economy

Smith03Jetta
07-16-2008, 11:15 AM
The company says that to upgrade from their Hydrogen system to the PICC system costs about $3000.00. They still have some hurdles to jump however, they are having difficulty getting the EPA to test it. They have already met with people from the White House and Congress about this and still are having trouble. The problem they have is that they have to remove the existing catalytic converter and put this on it it's place, which is currently illegal.

There is ONE problem with this reformed fuel. It does not have a very good flame spread. That means that unless they do something to increase the flame spread, it cannot be used efficiently. That's where Hydrogen Injection comes into play. The monatomic hydrogen is used to increase the flame spread of fuel.

More information and a discussion of their fight with the EPA is on the following link:

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm

daveczrn
07-16-2008, 11:21 AM
The company says that to upgrade from their Hydrogen system to the PICC system costs about $3000.00. They still have some hurdles to jump however, they are having difficulty getting the EPA to test it. They have already met with people from the White House and Congress about this and still are having trouble. The problem they have is that they have to remove the existing catalytic converter and put this on it it's place, which is currently illegal.

There is ONE problem with this reformed fuel. It does not have a very good flame spread. That means that unless they do something to increase the flame spread, it cannot be used efficiently. That's where Hydrogen Injection comes into play. The monatomic hydrogen is used to increase the flame spread of fuel.

More information and a discussion of their fight with the EPA is on the following link:

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm


ouch... $3000 Ill pass. 200 MPG would be nice though.

Stratous
07-16-2008, 11:34 AM
The company says that to upgrade from their Hydrogen system to the PICC system costs about $3000.00. They still have some hurdles to jump however, they are having difficulty getting the EPA to test it. They have already met with people from the White House and Congress about this and still are having trouble. The problem they have is that they have to remove the existing catalytic converter and put this on it it's place, which is currently illegal.

There is ONE problem with this reformed fuel. It does not have a very good flame spread. That means that unless they do something to increase the flame spread, it cannot be used efficiently. That's where Hydrogen Injection comes into play. The monatomic hydrogen is used to increase the flame spread of fuel.

More information and a discussion of their fight with the EPA is on the following link:

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm


That is alittle expensive for sure, but if it can recieve wide spread attention, then capitalism will kick in and create a competative enviroment which could bring the price down. May help with research as well. Anyone given any thought to the resistor on the atmospheric pressure sensor for leaning fuel mixture?

Phantom240
07-16-2008, 01:26 PM
They have to prove that it's the HHo system that caused the problem in the end. If they can't do it, then there is no issue.

Nope. Just the opposite. They have final say-so, so unless you can prove it DIDN'T cause the problem, you're boned.

Dealerships are shady cheapskates.

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-gas-savers/hixon-autoplex-installing-hydrogen-generators-for-cars/
I've actually been to this dealership. Haven't gotten to see much of the system they use, but innovative.

Phantom240
07-16-2008, 01:28 PM
http://www.preignitioncc.com/able41/index.htm
That's 100% scam. Do some reasearch on the guy behind it, and he has a LONG history of lawsuits and scams.

Oh, and a small discussion of it on another forum I'm a part of
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=173474&highlight=picc
Another on HHO in the same forum... a lot of skeptics lol
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=191678&highlight=hho

Smith03Jetta
07-16-2008, 02:57 PM
I don't dispute your claim that he's a scam artist. All I can say is there is also a long history of HHO, Water4Gas, Browns Gas Scams too.

I don't really care if HHO is a scam. It's getting me better gas mileage.

dennis13030
07-16-2008, 03:35 PM
I am fairly satisfied that HHO is good thing in terms of economy, pollution and welding. However, there will always be people that take an idea and use it for personal gains to the point of making claims that they can not prove.

It really sucks that some good ideas get a bad reputation because of a few con artists.

Smith03Jetta
07-16-2008, 06:05 PM
I personally think that selling a Hydrogen booster made from PVC Pipe and some stainless electrodes for $1200 is a ripoff but if I had a line of people a mile long waiting outside my garage for them to be installed, I would cave in and install them for masses. You can't argue with the law of conservation of energy and you can't argue with the law of supply and demand.

Scooter
07-16-2008, 09:07 PM
I was asked by some skeptics about wether or not the hho would make your engine rust or corrode if you didn't drive it everyday. Do you all drive yours everyday, 2,3,1 time a week and if so, do you have to shut down the generator a few miles before you stop to clear out any moisture from the hho. Just wondering because I do not know much about this but trust me, this will be one my vehicle once I learn about it!!!!

Jeff

Stratous
07-16-2008, 09:57 PM
Water injection has been used in engines for many years. Your unit shouldnt get hot enough to produce water vapor, thats about 160°. Most people units dont run that hot. The engine alone should be hot enough to keep any water vapor as water vapor until it exits the motor.

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 02:35 AM
Does long term use of HHO on an engine cause any damage? I don't think enough data has been collected to determine an answer to this question yet.

daveczrn
07-17-2008, 11:16 AM
i don't see what real damage could come from it? H2 has less energy in it so your not making it harder on any engine parts. and it burns cleaner.

ranger2.3
07-17-2008, 11:23 AM
I don't dispute your claim that he's a scam artist. All I can say is there is also a long history of HHO, Water4Gas, Browns Gas Scams too.

I don't really care if HHO is a scam. It's getting me better gas mileage.


Smith03Jetta all I have to say is. Amen. Darn Straight(you know what I mean). Well said.- Take your pick

ranger2.3
07-17-2008, 12:01 PM
There is a myth out there that HHO use can damage your vehicle.

Other than those urban legends about people who have left their HHO Device running and cranked up the vehicle causing the heads to blow up, are there any substantiated stories of anybody damaging a vehicle with normal HHO use?

Has anybody cracked a piston?

Has anybody had to rebuild their engine because of it?

I would like to put an end to this myth once and for all. It is either a damaging thing to do to your engine or it is beneficial.

I don't want to hear arguments that it won't damage your vehicle. I want undeniable proof that using HHO has damaged a vehicle and what the circumstances were. If anybody has the name of a vehicle owner who's car was damaged, please let me know.

I wonder the same thing, because I have a truck with at least 400,000 miles on it and I don't know if it can take the stress of more explosive fuel being injected into the cylinders.

daveczrn
07-17-2008, 12:28 PM
hydrogen is not more explosive. It does burn faster.. but not as explosive if i am correct.

Bigtoyota
07-17-2008, 01:11 PM
They only problem I could see with HHO being used in vehicles is the use of salt as the catalyst. Table salt produces Chlorine gas as well. This could corrode engine parts, especially if you have anything aluminum on the intake tract. Think cylinder heads. The bubbler is supposed to filter the Chlorine gas out, but I just don't see it filtering enough of it out to keep your engine safe. Especially considering that most modern engines use aluminum pistons.

The best thing to use would be KOH or NaOH. KOH is Potassium Hydroxide, also known as Caustic Potash. NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide, more commonly known as lye.

Phantom240
07-17-2008, 01:49 PM
hydrogen is not more explosive. It does burn faster.. but not as explosive if i am correct.

I know it has less BTUs than gasoline... but gasoline doesn't explode. HHO does... quite loudly lol.

timetowinarace
07-17-2008, 01:51 PM
They only problem I could see with HHO being used in vehicles is the use of salt as the catalyst. Table salt produces Chlorine gas as well. This could corrode engine parts, especially if you have anything aluminum on the intake tract. Think cylinder heads. The bubbler is supposed to filter the Chlorine gas out, but I just don't see it filtering enough of it out to keep your engine safe. Especially considering that most modern engines use aluminum pistons.

The best thing to use would be KOH or NaOH. KOH is Potassium Hydroxide, also known as Caustic Potash. NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide, more commonly known as lye.

Lye, if somehow pulled into the engine would cause much more damage, much more quickly to aluminum parts. Last night I left an aluminum racing plate(horseshoe) in lye and water. This morning it had a thick coat of grey crust on it and when I pulled it out it was still crackling.

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 02:13 PM
Definition: A British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the amount of heat energy needed to raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree F. This is the standard measurement used to state the amount of energy that a fuel has as well as the amount of output of any heat generating device.

With all fuels except HHO, this rating of energy contained in a fuel has meaning and is fixed. As far as measuring the BTUs of HHO, this is a different animal. HHO reacts with other materials. An HHO flame in open air burns at about 275 degrees F. However, this same flame when applied to Tungsten generates thousands of degrees very quickly. It seems to act like a variable thermal energy source.

ranger2.3
07-17-2008, 02:45 PM
I know it has less BTUs than gasoline... but gasoline doesn't explode. HHO does... quite loudly lol. What do you mean gasoline doesn't explode?

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 02:46 PM
What do you mean gasoline doesn't explode?

Liquid gasoline does not explode. Gasoline vapors do.

Smith03Jetta
07-17-2008, 02:52 PM
I think he means "Explode" like we have seen with lighting hydrogen bubbles. GAS bubbles don't explode with such obvious force.

Johnh
07-17-2008, 02:52 PM
Definition: A British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the amount of heat energy needed to raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree F. This is the standard measurement used to state the amount of energy that a fuel has as well as the amount of output of any heat generating device.

With all fuels except HHO, this rating of energy contained in a fuel has meaning and is fixed. As far as measuring the BTUs of HHO, this is a different animal. HHO reacts with other materials. An HHO flame in open air burns at about 275 degrees F. However, this same flame when applied to Tungsten generates thousands of degrees very quickly. It seem to act like a variable thermal energy source.

I have a feeling that this is another one of the myths surrounding HHO.
I THINK>>> that the only reason a HHO flame runs cool is because there is no carbon in the flame to absorb the energy and emit it as heat. In all Hydrocarbon fuels the carbon radiates the heat.
My oxyacylene torch is not much slower than the HHO torch at heating tungsten to white hot and that difference can be explained by the energy in the fuels. >>> my thoughts no references.
John

ranger2.3
07-17-2008, 02:52 PM
Liquid gasoline does not explode. Gasoline vapors do.

Oh ok, I just thought liquid gas. :oI knew that,LOL.:o

Smith03Jetta
08-05-2008, 03:31 PM
I posted this thread on 7/15/08 to see if ANYBODY in the world had ever documented a vehicle's engine being damaged as a result of HHO injection. So far no one has come forward to provide any proof.

Do you mean to tell me that with all the experiments, good and bad that nobody has had to send their car to the repair shop as a result of goofing with their engine?

Please respond if you have absolute proof that HHO has EVER damaged an engine. This is a challenge to all the unbelievers out there... Go ahead, make my day. I'd really like to know before I put HHO in my SUV that I paid $47,000.00 for.

mario brito
08-05-2008, 03:37 PM
I posted this thread on 7/15/08 to see if ANYBODY in the world had ever documented a vehicle's engine being damaged as a result of HHO injection. So far no one has come forward to provide any proof.

Do you mean to tell me that with all the experiments, good and bad that nobody has had to send their car to the repair shop as a result of goofing with their engine?

Please respond if you have absolute proof that HHO has EVER damaged an engine. This is a challenge to all the unbelievers out there... Go ahead, make my day. I'd really like to know before I put HHO in my SUV that I paid $47,000.00 for.


so, i can guess you don't whant to be the first one to find out that? :D

Walt
08-05-2008, 03:45 PM
A friend of mine blew off his intake manifold. He built his unit in haste witout any saftey concerns. He left the HHO on (direct intake connection) for several hours. He assumed the HHO had disipated by morning but in the sealed environment of an intake manifold...no such luck. He turned the key and BOOOM...off came the manifold. Not sure I would blame that one on HHO. LOL

Walt

Smith03Jetta
08-05-2008, 04:27 PM
I have a question. How did the engine blow off the intake manifold? Let me try to walk through this scenario and dissect how it could have happened...

1. HHO experimenter installs an HHO device in their car with no safety mechanisms like ignition cutoff.

2. He goes for a drive. He stops and gets out of the vehicle for a while.

3. He gets back into the vehicle and turns on the ignition. The engine goes boom. The Intake manifold gets blown off the engine.

I'm skeptical that this could have happened. Here's my explanation as to why.

1. Assuming that he did not put any safety devices in place the device would have continued to make HHO gas until the battery ran down. I give you that one.

2. The HHO Gas would be pumped directly into the plastic air intake plenum or directly into the intake manifold if it was ported for a direct HHO injection. The HHO Gas would saturate the air inside the intake manifold and the air filter. I seriously doubt the cast aluminum intake manifold was ported for HHO considering the fact that they guy didn't have the fore-sight to put an automatic cutoff switch on the system. That's like trying to run a 500 Mile car race with bald tires.

3. No indication was given as to whether this engine was carbureted or Fuel Injected so I will theorize the effects of both systems.

4. If it was a fuel injected system: When the ignition switch was turned on the MAF Sensor wire could have ignited the HHO Gas. The possibility exists. What would have happened if that occurred? I would think the relatively thin plastic intake plenum would have separated from either the Air Filter housing or the cast aluminum intake manifold. In an explosion the weakest part normally gives way first. The intake plenum is held on by a simple compression ring. It can be pulled loose if you jerk on it really hard with your bare hands.

The second thing that could have happened is that the MAF sensor wire DID NOT ignite the volatile gasses built up in the intake manifold/Plenum. The gasses could have been sucked into the cylinders of the engine. Once the gasses were sucked into the cylinders the cam shaft causes the intake valves to completely seal prior to the compression stroke.

The compression stroke would be followed by the spark from the spark plug. This would be a Saturated Hydrogen/Oxygen/Gasoline environment. I can imagine only two things happening under this condition.

Thing 1, The engine holds together and the RPM races really high until the HHO gas is used up.

Thing 2, What else could happen is that the force is too great for the cylinder and something has to give. That would either be the piston, piston rings, piston connector rods, crankshaft or other... I can't see the intake valve being damaged. If the intake valve was not damaged then the flames could not have ignited the gas inside the intake manifold causing the intake manifold to blow off the engine.

5. If the engine was carbureted I can only think of one thing different from the above scenarios. If a MAF sensor existed on the carbureted engine and the MAF sensor wire ignited the HHO gas the flame would travel through the butterfly valves into the intake manifold. The resulting explosion inside the intake manifold would have resulted in a carburetor Backfire (Carb Fart). These happen all the time with Gasoline but if the force was great enough the butterfly valve could have been damaged or the carburetor could have been blown off the intake manifold entirely.

I just can't imagine any scenario where the intake manifold would be blown off the engine.

Do you have photos, Friend's name, Type of Engine or other Valid Proof?

scirockett
08-05-2008, 04:41 PM
you got balls man.. toying with a the flagship volkswagen..

As i mentioned in the other thread, there are many issues that arise when you change fuel mixture and lean out a motor. And there's also a big difference highway driving and acceleration. I know you think I should experiment before talking, but I've already blown up MANY motors and I've learned that lean conditions are lethal, and THINK HARD before modifying maps. : )

before I start babbling, my response point here is you may not see the damage of running lean by catastrophic failure. People doing HHO are typically not building race cars, they're building efficient cars, and likely drive them in an efficient manor.

Catastrophic failure typically happens running alot of boost with either a poor fueling map, or a machanical failure such as an injector or a pressure issue that causes the lean condition, ie, goodbye motor.

For the general HHO people running car lean by tricking management and hoping they're delivering enough HHO, they may not see the effects of lean conditions until down the road.. ie, burnt and pitted valves, burnt and pitted pistons, holes in pistons, etc.. the engine will still run with alot of damage, but you'll start losing compression over time with lean conditions. Lean conditions in with no doubt will decrease the life of all parts involved.

Now, as seen in many reports, HHO has been proven to work well in lean conditions! unfortunely I haven't found any data in regards to mixtures to support this. So hopefully everyone is delivering enough HHO to compensate for their lean condition, or they will find damage down the road.

Lean = Hot. most NA car engines are not designed to run hot. Performance motors use sodium filled valves and forged pistons to deal with excessive heat and stress. So the everyday motor will deteriorate faster under lean conditions.

Might want to add this to your tests - take a compression check before driving any further. This would be a good thing to monitor. just remember there are other factors that effect compression such as engine temp and oil presense on the rings. If you test the motor cold everytime, that should give you consistant results.

Now, water in the engine doesn't scare me too much, but we still use 50% alcohol to prevent corrosion in water injection systems. (methanol, hell, bmw washer fluid...). But regardless, I've also submerged several outboards and a 427 bigblock (twice, don't ask) and had no adverse effects after immediate running other than getting rusty on the outside. that's no bad internal effects (no compression loss, at least on the 427) but had to rebuild some accessories on all shortly after submersion.

bla bla, so hopefully i've added something good to the thread. although I haven't seen any damage caused by HHO, I can assure you that lean conditions cause damage over time. So if the HHO isn't doing what it should, or there's not enough HHO, it will damage the motor over time.

Wonder why I haven't hooked it up yet? hell, This is already the second motor in this car, first one went lean at 15 psi and didn't last 1k rpm.. There's no point in pulling fuel without me being sure I'm adding enough hydrogen, which requires a way to meter it.. or I need to get the self control to NOT floor it, but that just won't happen..

scirockett
08-05-2008, 04:54 PM
wow. just read the post above..

sounds like the MAF lit it up. For those who don't know, a maf heats an element and measure airflow and density by the amount of cooling (well, technically it's measured by the amount of current required to heat the element).

As for it blowing off the intake, hot damn!! ooooops. Even with the TB closed, HHO will probably get by. hell, probably doesn't matter where his injection point is, if it was left on for a period of time, it would reach the maf. .

guess he'll relay it off the ignition next time..

Smith03Jetta
08-05-2008, 04:55 PM
One way to make sure you are not running lean on heavy acceleration is to adjust the acceleration adaptation channel to push in more gasoline when you are accelerating only. At cruising speed the ECU will drop back to the primary and secondary fueling channels to control a lean fuel mixture.

Your comments are well thought out. I've also wondered what would happen if I set my engine lean and I'm stranded off somewhere and my HHO device quits producing GAS. I would need to go back and reprogram my ECU for the ride home or risk running lean for a while with no Hydrogen to support the lean mixture. That would call for an on-board fuel management system or I would need to keep my Laptop and OBD-II cable with me if I'm very far from home.

I purchased a very nice compression gauge a few months ago while I was rebuilding my Harley engine. I think it is a great idea to do a compression test on all cylinders. I can repeat the compression test every few months to make sure everything is doing fine. I also don't mind cracking the heads and inspecting everything to make sure it still looks good. If the compression test shows something abnormal I'll think about pulling the heads and taking a look-see. I hope I don't have to do that...

Walt
08-05-2008, 04:58 PM
Smith (VW),

It happened alright on a 07 Colorado 4 cyl. He left it on from 6 PM until 1Am and then he remembered and went out and disconected his "roach clips" (LOL) from the battery. He injected the HHO right into his intake manifold via spare port previously plugged. My assumption is since hydrogen is so lite it migrated to and saturated the uppermost regions of his manifold and built down from there. Since the manifold is very sealed on the top, it is not out of reason to think 7 hours of HHO production in a sealed environment might be expolsive. I had a wondrus 4th of July with 2.5 gallon jugs and 7 minutes worth of HHO each. Additionaly the old fella used aluminum and copper for his electrodes which provide for very high output at lower amp draw (until they disapear). He said he was getting .6 LPM at 8 amps. With a 525 CCA battery and 8 amp draw the electrolizer will run a while. Either way it happened. I will see if he took pictures. By the way it happened when he turned the engine over. It also damaged his top end.

Walt

Smith03Jetta
08-05-2008, 05:05 PM
He was not making HHO. He was making Pure Hydrogen. You gave the example of Aluminum electrode. That makes Hydrogen and most of the Oxygen is absorbed into the aluminum making Alumina as a byproduct.

Pure Hydrogen is not as explosive as HHO. I've proved that already. The problem that I see with his design is this... It does not matter that he disconnected the "Roach clips" on his battery. Aluminum will continue to produce Hydrogen Gas if left in the Calalyst/Water mixture. It doesn't have to be hooked up to electricity to make gas. I left a piece of aluminum in some NaOH and water for a few days. It was still making hydrogen yesterday. Right by itself. Every few hours I would go by and light the bubbles with my BBQ lighter...

scirockett
08-05-2008, 05:10 PM
http://lukeusmaximus.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/microsoft_werd.thumbnail.jpg

dude, I love it. you're the first person I've ever met (including my crew at the VW stealership) that is not afriad of the Treg. "oh, well I'll just pop the heads off".. YTMND. EDIT: pop the 'head' off. I think that's a single flat head similar to the VR (inline V) but wider than the VR's 17 deg angle.

how do your plugs look? Any deterioration?

also, keep an eye on your spark plug gap. lean conditions will cause this gap to increase faster than normal.

I know LP causes plugs to turn a brownish color, but no idea with HHO.. thoughts?

Walt
08-05-2008, 05:37 PM
VW,

You said

"problem that I see with his design is this... "

I say the problem was he had no design!!!! He haphazardly thru a unit together without regard to sanity and blew the H#LL out of his truck. I am with you. I do not think HHO will damage an engine under sane conditions. This was not sane.

Walt

Smith03Jetta
08-05-2008, 06:39 PM
Spark Plug Gap and condition... Here are a couple photos of one of my plugs. Looks just fine. No indication of running lean.

1973dodger
08-05-2008, 07:40 PM
I posted this thread on 7/15/08 to see if ANYBODY in the world had ever documented a vehicle's engine being damaged as a result of HHO injection. So far no one has come forward to provide any proof.

Do you mean to tell me that with all the experiments, good and bad that nobody has had to send their car to the repair shop as a result of goofing with their engine?

Please respond if you have absolute proof that HHO has EVER damaged an engine. This is a challenge to all the unbelievers out there... Go ahead, make my day. I'd really like to know before I put HHO in my SUV that I paid $47,000.00 for.


Mr Smith,

I have personally installed a hho system on my brother-in-laws truck without an automatic shut off wired with the ignition, just for testing purposes and what could happen did happen. Yes he left it on for 2 hours and started it anyway, not real bright. Yes it did do damage to the throttle body and blew the air filter cover up like an inverted mushroom. we were making 2 liters a minute, so the intire throttle body and air filter housing was full of hho. Keep in mind the butterfly is closed with engine off, so no damage downstream, but the butterfly was bent up pretty badly. This is not a kid's toy, it is explosive. I am, however, not disheartened by this setback, don't know if i can say the same for the brother-in-law though. But a lesson learned.

1973dodger

1973dodger
08-05-2008, 07:51 PM
I might also add, the test vehicle was a 1992 chev. truck with a 350 and throttle body injection. We installed the tube just above the butterfly.

1973dodger

Smith03Jetta
08-05-2008, 10:05 PM
Like I said, that's one possible way of damaging a vehicle. It did not, however damage the intake manifold. This one, again was because of carelessness. It's like trying to crank an engine with gasoline in a diesel tank. You know you've messed up but What the Hey? In both instances these individuals knew better.

jimbo40
08-06-2008, 08:05 AM
Yesterday my laborer moved my truck on the job site, Toyota Tundra
Idiot left the key on for six hours. When I went to start it the entire truck blew off the ground 3 ft.

Just kidding!

The battery had about 6 volts in it and the unit was still rolling out gas even with the key off.
This is a really nice truck, and I used some not so nice words.
Anyway I evacuated the gas in and round the whole area pulled the tube to my plenm from the generater, 4-5 good solid evacuation blows into the tube to air it, out hooked up jumper cables.
(by the way everyone knows I run HHO ) And I've shown some how the bubbles pop.
I had one guy say are you crazy i'm gettin the hell outa here.
Any way.
Turned the key and Booooom, just kidding again, It started just fine.
not even a strange sound.
So if that would happen to you, just pull a tube and blow some fresh air or stinky breath or whatever, but break up the heavy hho concentrations and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Smith03Jetta
08-06-2008, 08:24 AM
I would think this particular scenario of leaving the HHO Generator on would be common place with testers. I even did it once myself. I was programming my ECU with my laptop computer. I turned on the key (First Position) and did not start my car's engine. I then went about changing some settings for about 5 or 6 minutes. The whole time I was producing gas. I then cycled my ECU by cutting off the power and back on. I then cranked the engine. The RMP raced for a couple seconds and then leveled back down. I knew what I had done immediately. No damage occurred but the intake plenum must have had about 5 liters of HHO gas in it when I cranked the engine.

I'm considering some sort of in-line safety switch that is activated by an oil pressure switch or something else. I could put a relay or contacter on the alternator that would close the circuit only if the alternator was running or the oil pressure was up.

To help prevent lean start up I enriched the start up and warm up fuel mixture adaptation channels to compensate for a lack of HHO at start up.

The Evidence that I'm searching for isn't really the Accidents, Stupidity and other incidents as mentioned. I'm looking for evidence that properly installed HHO Systems are damaging engines. So far all I have heard (Other than these ACCIDENTS) is anecdotal evidence that is either unsubstantiated or untrue.

I'm sure that there is probably somebody out there who has leaned out the fuel mixture 75% and has got lean detonation but under less damaging (Stupid) conditions is HHO causing problems.

scirockett
08-06-2008, 08:41 AM
A good option would be to wire the HHO gen off the fuel pump relay. This relay is only turned on when the engine is running. In newer cars, it's computer controlled (ground from ECU to fuel pump relay) and the ECU requires action from the hall sendor, or cps. On older cars, same deal, except no ECU is involved, and the FP relay requires pulsed ground (hey, go figure) from the coil (just like a tach).

This is a safety feature so the fuel pump is running ONLY when the engine is running. If you get in an accident, your ignition switch may still be on but with the engine not turning, your fuel pump is off.

Now you might think it would be difficult to wire into the fuel pump relay, but typically other power is controlled by this relay than just the fuel pump. most VW's (digi1/2, motronic, and even CIS/E) use the fuel pump relay to control power to the O2 heater, and power to the fuel rail. Either of which do now have power unless the motor is not turning, and would be ideal to relay a HHO gen off because they're already in the engine bay.

no brainer way to prevent this kind of problem.

Smith03Jetta
08-06-2008, 08:51 AM
A good option would be to wire the HHO gen off the fuel pump relay. This relay is only turned on when the engine is running. In newer cars, it's computer controlled (ground from ECU to fuel pump relay) and the ECU requires action from the hall sendor. On older cars, same deal, except no ECU is involved, and the FP relay requires pulsed ground (hey, go figure) from the coil (just like a tach).

This is a safety feature so the fuel pump is running ONLY when the engine is running. If you get in an accident, your ignition switch may still be on but with the engine not turning, your fuel pump is off.

Now you might think it would be difficult to wire into the fuel pump relay, but typically other power is controlled by this relay than just the fuel pump. most VW's (digi1/2, motronic, and even CIS/E) use the fuel pump relay to control power to the O2 heater, and power to the fuel rail. Either of which do now have power unless the motor is turning, and would be ideal to relay a HHO gen off because they're already in the engine bay.

no brainer way to prevent this kind of problem.

Modern Volkswagens have a feature that when you open the door the fuel pump kicks on and primes the fuel system. If you drive a VW you will notice a hissing or humming sound coming from under your car when you first open the door in the morning. That's the fuel pump waking up.

If I hook up to that relay I would be producing HHO before I even get in my car.

scirockett
08-06-2008, 08:52 AM
Smith -

plugs look like they have less than 5k miles on them. Didn't the treg come with Iridium plugs? Why have you switched to generic copper core plugs? (well, at least that's what it appears to be.. ) Iridium's will last 80k+ miles while copper plugs are in the 20-30k range, but the way I beat them up, I carry two sets and change every 5-10k depending on how fast I eat them.. Keep on eye on that gap. it will change over time, and i'm extremely curious how fast. : )

scirockett
08-06-2008, 08:55 AM
yes, it may prime the system when you open the door, but I couldn't imagine it would stay running unless the motor is running. Prime period is usually two seconds, and they do it with door open now because there is no ignition on anymore, just push the button. so there has to be a way to prime the system now with the lack of a 'key on position', and that's with the door.

Smith03Jetta
08-06-2008, 08:56 AM
I haven't hooked HHO up to the Touareg yet. That spark plug came from my Jetta. I replaced the plugs in my Jetta about 10,000 miles ago. The HHO has been running for about 2 months. I've been leaning out my fuel with Adaptation channels for about 2 weeks.

donsimpson12
08-06-2008, 09:28 AM
I wonder the same thing, because I have a truck with at least 400,000 miles on it and I don't know if it can take the stress of more explosive fuel being injected into the cylinders.


I would have to contribute to this one.. It really depends on the amount of HHO that you are introducing to the engine.

If you take an engine with high mileage like yours and put a new hot rod cam in it, it'll run better, but your rolling the dice on the bottom end of the engine holding up.... I've done it and also seen it happen many times..
;-)

Smith03Jetta
08-06-2008, 03:11 PM
Based on the two attached photos I would say that my engine is running pretty good. Not lean, not rich. I also peeped into the spark plug hole and inspected the piston surface on my Jetta. The Piston had a thin coating of blackish stuff all over it but it had some bare spots where the "Wash" happened near the valves and spark plug. That is an indication of NORMAL ignition based on all my internet research.

If the engine was running rich i would see a mostly shiny metal surface where the fuel washes the deposits off my piston. Sort of like you take a grinder to the surface.

If the engine was running lean you would see a heavy black buildup on the surface of the piston with no "Wash" (Thumbnail sized clear spots near the ports and spark plug).

There is no indication that I'm running a dangerously rich or dangerously lean mixture in my engine based on visual inspection of the spark plugs and piston surface.

Bluebus
08-07-2008, 01:09 AM
I first started using my hydrogen generator, just two days ago! I can say I dont think that I have Totaled my motor in my vanagon, yet I found that it did get very Hot to the point it Boiled! Now the oil pressure light comes on on occasions.Does anyone have any input out there with what I may be doing wrong?

daveczrn
08-07-2008, 10:43 AM
check your oil maybe?

why not tell us alittle about your car and setup.

Smith03Jetta
08-07-2008, 02:46 PM
That's funny.:D

It's so obvious a thing to say. Engine is overheating, Oil light came on.

Solution:

Check your Oil...

I have not seen any difference in my engine temperature, Before HHO, using HHO without Fuel System mods, or with HHO and Fuel System mods. No engine temp differences at all...

daveczrn
08-07-2008, 03:50 PM
alright so the worse case i can think of with how you have your HHO setup is that it boiled the water... you ran alot of water through a cylinder and it blew a head gasket. Check your oil and see if there is any water in it, as well check your antifreeze and see if there is any oil in it. either of the two exist i would get the engine worked on right away.

and i would not say that your vehicle was hurt from HHO use... More inproper use.

if you wanted to keep using HHO i would redesign your generator so that it works properly, then install it back inthe car.

dennyk159
08-15-2008, 04:45 PM
1998 Ford Ranger 3.0 Liter V6

OK... I had been running HHO for about 6 weeks. I didn't feel like I had a very good baseline of pre-HHO MPG data, so 2 weeks ago I turned it off. I drove to work 2 days ago, everything fine in the morning, but driving home, I had an obvious miss. At idle the engine was vibrating pretty bad, & under a load like climbing a hill was a lot worse. I checked the obvious things like spark plug wires, which by the way, was replaced along with the spark plugs & coil, 5 months ago, before I knew what HHO was.

The way my air intake is designed, it comes in from the driver's side & curves down to the center of the engine, so the 3 fuel injectors for the driver's side are pretty well covered & inaccessible due to the manifold. I described this because the other 3 are easily accessible, & to check them, I was unplugging them 1 by 1 to see if there was a difference in the missing engine. All 3 injectors on the passenger side made the miss worse, & the puffing at the exhaust worse. So, at this point, I decided to take it to Ford for diagnoses/repair. I just got the call that 3 fuel injectors are bad. Which ones? I asked. The 3 under the manifold... as luck has it.

I'm not sure if the HHO could be the culprit here, but first off suspected not. Then I was wondering, & if anybody knows this, I'm all ears. Do the injectors enter the cylinder above the piston, or do they actually spray the valve on the air manifold side? If they go to the manifold, I'd say there is probably no way HHO could be the cause, but on the cylinder side, the increased explosive force may have been too much for the 141K mile injectors. Why only on the driver's side? I don't know, but maybe because it has a shorter flow path, although it appears the manifold is tuned to be the same length going to both sides of the engine.

Any ideas?
Thanks, Dennyk159

Painless
08-15-2008, 05:20 PM
If you've been running with HHO for a while, your engine computer might of made some adjustments which caused this. You might want to try disconnecting the battery for 15-20 mins before spending any money.

dennyk159
08-15-2008, 09:23 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, but I tried that. Although I only waited about 5 minutes rather than 20...

walkingeagle37
02-28-2009, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=Smith03Jetta;7219]One way to make sure you are not running lean on heavy acceleration is to adjust the acceleration adaptation channel to push in more gasoline when you are accelerating only. At cruising speed the ECU will drop back to the primary and secondary fueling channels to control a lean fuel mixture.

Your comments are well thought out. I've also wondered what would happen if I set my engine lean and I'm stranded off somewhere and my HHO device quits producing GAS. I would need to go back and reprogram my ECU for the ride home or risk running lean for a while with no Hydrogen to support the lean mixture. That would call for an on-board fuel management system or I would need to keep my Laptop and OBD-II cable with me if I'm very far from home.

Actually, the above part of your post is what interests me the most. I've been experimenting and running hho for over a year now with quite positive results on most vehicles. But, what I am looking for is a way to reprogram the ECU to MY parimeters without having to pay a small fortune to program each individual vehicle.

If anyone knows how I can obtain the necessary software for my laptop, it would be most appreciated.

Dave Nowlin
02-28-2009, 06:17 PM
I'm afraid the right way to do this may not interst you. The truly right way is to buy a programmer and then go to someone who knows what they are doing, writes custom programs and has a dyno. They can by dyno testing optimize your fueling curve for different conditions. There is no one way that is a perfect fit for all cars. There is also no absolutely safe way you can do this without this type of testing if you want to get all the fuel savings you can safely and reliably. My son had custom tunes written for his F-150 with aftermarket exhaust and intake. This absolutely optimizes your engines performance for all operating conditions. He has a program for towing, a program for high octane fuel and another to optimize regular gas. If you had custom tunes like this developed for your vehicle you could have one for HHO and one without. If your cell quits working you just plug in the programmer and change tunes. His tuner is an SCT.

Dave Nowlin

Gary Diamond
02-28-2009, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE=Smith03Jetta;7219]One way to make sure you are not running lean on heavy acceleration is to adjust the acceleration adaptation channel to push in more gasoline when you are accelerating only. At cruising speed the ECU will drop back to the primary and secondary fueling channels to control a lean fuel mixture.

Your comments are well thought out. I've also wondered what would happen if I set my engine lean and I'm stranded off somewhere and my HHO device quits producing GAS. I would need to go back and reprogram my ECU for the ride home or risk running lean for a while with no Hydrogen to support the lean mixture. That would call for an on-board fuel management system or I would need to keep my Laptop and OBD-II cable with me if I'm very far from home.

Actually, the above part of your post is what interests me the most. I've been experimenting and running hho for over a year now with quite positive results on most vehicles. But, what I am looking for is a way to reprogram the ECU to MY parimeters without having to pay a small fortune to program each individual vehicle.

If anyone knows how I can obtain the necessary software for my laptop, it would be most appreciated.

My 2 cents is, with in a year we will max out on the best output from a HHO generator then what?

Well the next big challenge will be the car computer and that will open up a whole new business for some very smart guys out there.


Of course if the price of gas goes up so will the speed of this comming to be

kcarring
11-27-2010, 10:49 PM
There exists the very real threat of destroying anything aluminum (intake manifold for example) by way of introduction of caustic fumes. I recently saw some great photos online (I can't remember if they were here, or if they were at HHOUnderground forum. For quite sometime we all have been convinced that our bubblers clean up the gas, and they do: the outside of the bubbles. That still leaves the inside of the bubbles which contain electrolyte. Think of the bubbles as a container made out of exactly what we do not want in our motors! So, here's a paradigm: if you cant light up a torch from your HHO device and observe a colorless (ultraviolet) light, you've got some cleaning to do in your production. If it is yellow (NaOH) or a different color from KOH for example, your burning K or Na. Which, of course brings into play the concept of better filtration. I forget which user found the problem, but he removed the MAP sensor, and found white crust (caustic corrosion) throughout the intake. I am currrently not running HHO in my motor till I play around with scrubbing (which, at first seems relatively simple to beat, however creating flow restrictions within the line isn't good either). Fine screens at the bottom of your bubbler made of stainless steel will help break the bubbles up. I am experimenting with a chamber that starts with a very fine steel wool mesh, progresses to those polymer (fine grade) scrub pads, and finishes with a 90,000 thread count per inch (no fluff) microfibre cloth. My gas then goes into a chamber of dry, hard and inert beads of non-reactive silica. Last, it just goes into a chamber. An empty chamber, sort of a water collector.

It should be noted that this is not HHO damage, this is electrolyte residue damage.

* note - I could be wrong about the flame test, i suppose it is possible that no hydroxides are making it the flame. If in fact the flame shows the presence of Na, and or K - but NOT caustic soda, then my theory does not hold true. However, once you play with filtration, you do see the flame color change, so it's somewhere to start.

Good luck All

kcarring
11-27-2010, 10:59 PM
[QUOTE=walkingeagle37;24369]
Well the next big challenge will be the car computer and that will open up a whole new business for some very smart guys out there.

Do you mean tweaking the computer itself? Mods? they seem popular already.

I'm a lowtech solution provider, rip all the gear off, throw on a carb, run HHO and a wood gasifier in the back of the truck. WWII technology with an HHO twist lol

lhazleton
11-28-2010, 07:36 AM
Kyle,
I believe you were referring to my MAF with the corrosion.:D
Your bubbler idea sounds OK, except for the 'steel wool' part. It will dissolve and make a mess. Use S/S wool instead. It's pricey, but it won't rust up on you.

Lee

kcarring
11-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Despite a bunch of wishes and hopes, my filter didn't work out so well. On the other hand, it's pretty difficult to determine how well it's working, too... especially if the flame test is the only measure. i suppose it only lets you know if there is sodium (in my case) in the flame and eliminating all of that, is fairly unlikely. It was your story... I took the whole issue up with my old chem prof tonight, and also an entirely other subject (that ironically got me piping up too much opinion, apparently, at nick's site, cause it got my IP banned) - which is to say, What is all in the gas we're burning? I think it's pretty fair to say that the jury is still out on that one. In a Hoffmans device you know what's there, in a dry cell (unless in a serious lab environment with control factors you don't)

I figure though, one decent test will be to buy a cheap gasjob genny and run the heck out of it, knowing all the while it had vulnerable parts (aluminum) and just see what happens. of course one sort of needs a reason to do that in the first place! I might set up an offgrid friend with a chinese genset and drycell and have him do just that, put a full season in on it see what happens after having developed what I think is a good scrubber.

marauderx
04-06-2011, 01:34 PM
you can get scotchbrite stainless scrubbers from wallyworld, and shove them into secondary bubbler, to scrub it...

blagojg
10-16-2013, 09:00 AM
There is a myth out there that HHO use can damage your vehicle.

Other than those urban legends about people who have left their HHO Device running and cranked up the vehicle causing the heads to blow up, are there any substantiated stories of anybody damaging a vehicle with normal HHO use?

Has anybody cracked a piston?

Has anybody had to rebuild their engine because of it?

I would like to put an end to this myth once and for all. It is either a damaging thing to do to your engine or it is beneficial.

I don't want to hear arguments that it won't damage your vehicle. I want undeniable proof that using HHO has damaged a vehicle and what the circumstances were. If anybody has the name of a vehicle owner who's car was damaged, please let me know.



Hi, I installed few HHO systems on some cars, and here are damages (so far):

1. On one 3.0 turbo diesel (180PSI) foam from hho enetr into turbo charger an destroy it.

2. On one turbo diesel vapour from HHO gas destroy intercooler - it made holes on it like swiss cheese from Tom&Jerry.

3. On MB 2.7 CDI (170PSI) HHO was detonating in intake just before entering the engine (probably by fire entering from exhaust by EGR) and blow of plastic intake with holes like granate...

not to mention than once drop from electrolyte (KOH) went in my eye and I still can not recover from burn .....

myoldyourgold
10-17-2013, 08:32 AM
Hi, I installed few HHO systems on some cars, and here are damages (so far):

1. On one 3.0 turbo diesel (180PSI) foam from hho enetr into turbo charger an destroy it.

2. On one turbo diesel vapour from HHO gas destroy intercooler - it made holes on it like swiss cheese from Tom&Jerry.

3. On MB 2.7 CDI (170PSI) HHO was detonating in intake just before entering the engine (probably by fire entering from exhaust by EGR) and blow of plastic intake with holes like granate...

not to mention than once drop from electrolyte (KOH) went in my eye and I still can not recover from burn .....

Everyone of your mentioned problems has happened because of either a poor system that does not have the correct safety systems, wrong amount of HHO being injected, or poor or non existent filtering system. If anyone would spend enough time studying the many posts on this forum they would have discovered many warnings and many different solutions to most of the problems.

The biggest problem with HHO is the very poor systems that are being sold or made in someones back yard by people who have no idea what happens long term or with irresponsible people just slopping on a system without the proper filters or safety mechanisms. HHO is not something one should get involved in until you understand all the ramifications and how thing work. Plan to spend some real money to get something that is safe and really works. One had better know exactly what he is doing or you will not get any gains and or possibility cause some damage to your engine.

Continual maintenance is also left out of most sales pitches. This is much more involved than you think and if not done regularly you will have many of the above problems or declining positive results, or just no positive results.

When done correctly it is as safe as the fuel in your tank and will cause no damage to the engine. It will in fact help keep the carbon build up to a minimum, while cleaning out the excessive carbon build up over time. It will also give you a cleaner exhaust.