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countryboy18
07-16-2008, 05:50 PM
do anyone see any problems with this cell configurations it will be in a car. i will use what ever chemical you tell me will work best. the blue bolts are plastic and the white nuts are SS. blue washers are 1/8 thick. i plan on using the holes that come in the wall plats and just making the the holes 1/4 size. it will be under vacuum that is atached to the intake manifold were the master break booster gets it vacuum. it is realy close to scale. 4" pvc pipe 12 inch long and a screw on cap, hope it seals good. thanks for any help!!! i can make the pipe longer if it will help.

you2wire
07-16-2008, 07:16 PM
remove the nuts beside the nylon washers just use the washer alone and thats it.

dennis13030
07-16-2008, 08:02 PM
Instead of two stacked sets in parallel, why not use one set that is 2 times as long?

countryboy18
07-16-2008, 08:03 PM
i am using wall plates should i flaten them with a hammer or keep them normal. and then does it matter of i make the clam shape with the cells any benfit if i do that or how shoud the plates face? -()NN()NN()NN()+. ()()()() are the plates with out there power. hope u under stand that. i didnt show the curved plates in the drawing to hard to work that way. thanks!!!:D

dennis13030
07-16-2008, 08:10 PM
Like this................... oppps. Wall plates, ok I undersatnd.

countryboy18
07-16-2008, 09:24 PM
does it matter the way the plates face. there are no nuts in the middle of the plates that is spacers (blue) that seperate the plates

Boltazar
07-16-2008, 10:56 PM
Dennis 13030 the generator in your last reply a 4 cell series setup? If so volts across each cell would be about 4 ?

Pete

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 02:24 AM
Lets see.

With a nut between two plates used as neutrals, the configuration is equivalent to -NNN+. Which makes 5 plates and 4 cells. If the anode to cathode voltage is 12V, then each cell should have about 3V.

rzone
07-17-2008, 07:57 AM
Lets see.

With a nut between two plates used as neutrals, the configuration is equivalent to -NNN+. Which makes 5 plates and 4 cells. If the anode to cathode voltage is 12V, then each cell should have about 3V.

And above this the space between 2 adjacent neutral plates is wasted(won't produce anything) because they have the same electric potential.
I want to upload a pdf that confirm and complete all my trials and for me seems to have the best explanation so far. I don't know if is here already but i'll do it anyway...:) if you have any comments on it pls post it so we can dissect on it.




LE:
I can't upload more than 19k
need 300...

countryboy18
07-17-2008, 08:29 AM
so rzone how would u sujest the plates to be aranged it is easy for me to make the cell up on the computer and post a pic. just tell me the configeration and i can make it into a picture. make one with the positive and nergtive and nurtal plates "-n+n-n" "-nnnn+nnnn-" something like that and then one with witch way the plates will be pointed "()()()()" "((((()))))" thanks!!!

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 09:12 AM
does it matter the way the plates face. there are no nuts in the middle of the plates that is spacers (blue) that seperate the plates

This looks ok to me. The configuration is equivalent to -NNNN+ times 2.
With as 12V system and 4 neutral plates instead of 3, it will run at lower amps and lower temperature. Even though the lower current will yield less gas production, it is a good way to go.

It is a good way to go because you can "dial up" whatever current/heat/production you want by adding more chemicals.

My only suggestion for this design is to minimize the space between the two sets of plates while maximizing the open space at the top of the electrolyzer. This will allow you to store more usable water inside the unit. Otherwise, as the water depletes and the tops on the plates enter the gas area, you will get less production.

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 09:20 AM
My only suggestion for this design is to minimize the space between the two sets of plates while maximizing the open space at the top of the electrolyzer. This will allow you to store more usable water inside the unit. Otherwise, as the water depletes and the tops on the plates enter the gas area, you will get less production.

Like this. See image below.

countryboy18
07-17-2008, 10:26 AM
so should i run it or is there anything that still need to be fixed. what sould be the gap between the () plates i can just put more washers in the middle of the plates to get what ever gap that is sujected.

Coranan
07-17-2008, 11:36 AM
I new to the plate design....Why do you need to install neutral plates?? I understand positive and negative, but the netrual I dont?? I use the spiral method and I dont think I have any neutral Stainless steel wires.

countryboy18
07-17-2008, 12:10 PM
if you search the forum you will find pages and pages of when and when not to use neutral plates.

rzone
07-17-2008, 05:08 PM
Figure this out: 2 plates connected together by a nut is the same as one plate because the space within is electrically inert, or at the same electric potential. Your initial configuration is equivalent to +nnn- . That is 3-3.5 V between 2 adjacent plates. From what I learned until now, the practical voltage across one cell (2 plates) is about 1.8 - 1.9V . For 13 V that is +nnnnnn- (7 cells). Above 2V/cell the production will increase but the heat too, and the efficiency will drop fast. From what I tried, 7 cells will produce ~ 1lpm@ 13V/12A with 3mm (0.11") spacing and KOH electrolyte. If you need more gas, and still want to keep same efficiency, just add more neutrals and increase voltage (use a dc inverter).

Stratous
07-17-2008, 06:25 PM
Figure this out: 2 plates connected together by a nut is the same as one plate because the space within is electrically inert, or at the same electric potential. Your initial configuration is equivalent to +nnn- . That is 3-3.5 V between 2 adjacent plates. From what I learned until now, the practical voltage across one cell (2 plates) is about 1.8 - 1.9V . For 13 V that is +nnnnnn- (7 cells). Above 2V/cell the production will increase but the heat too, and the efficiency will drop fast. From what I tried, 7 cells will produce ~ 1lpm@ 13V/12A with 3mm (0.11") spacing and KOH electrolyte. If you need more gas, and still want to keep same efficiency, just add more neutrals and increase voltage (use a dc inverter).

You can also run two units in parallel with that configuration to about double your ouput, the side effect is double amperage as well. Or you can run Two units as +NN-NN+ in a series circuit and recieve about 1.5 lpm at 15amps

Boltazar
07-17-2008, 08:32 PM
As I can see so far we've talked a lot about flat plates. Has any one got info on round plates (pipe) stacked within each other or is this method to costly to design or just not efficient.

Pete

Stratous
07-17-2008, 08:34 PM
The pipe inside a pipe is a good design, its just as efficient as plates, maybe even more. It is a little more difficult to build over plates.

dennis13030
07-17-2008, 08:42 PM
I think a version is called a "Joe Cell"?

Jaxom
07-18-2008, 12:22 PM
I've seen the concentric tube design called a "Joe Cell" as well, and it looks like a pretty solid design. The nice thing about it is that the outer tube can serve double duty as the cell housing, eliminating the need for PVC/Lexan/whatever you're building your box out of. I can certainly see how it would be tougher to build though.

dennis13030
07-18-2008, 12:52 PM
There is another issue with the "Joe Cell". The surface area of the outer tube is considerably larger than the inner tube. I do not know if this is good or bad.

countryboy18
07-20-2008, 06:23 PM
so it better it have the wall plates face in to each other or away "+()()-()()+ or +)()(-)()(+. thanks for any help.

Bwanar
07-20-2008, 11:30 PM
All the designs I've seen have the plates in the same direction like this (( not () or )(. It makes the design more compact. This is (I believe) and original design of the Smack booster. You can check it out on Youtube. Personally having done both I prefer to flatten them out. You can save even more space that way.

Jaxom
07-21-2008, 02:48 PM
I flatten my wall plates as well, but not to save space as much as to maintain even spacing, and make the plates easier to work with (as I cut mine in half longways.)

If you aren't going to flatten them, definitely put them all facing the same way, i.e. ((((( or ))))). If you cup them toward each other like (), you create a restriction at the top that makes it harder for the gasses to escape. If you cup them away from each other like )(, you will have less current flow at the outer edges than at the center of the plates. I don't know if that would hurt anything, but I don't see how it could help at all either.

Jaxom
07-21-2008, 02:52 PM
Dennis, I don't see the difference in SA causing too much of a problem. It would limit the current capacity of the cell to whatever the innermost tube could handle, and therefore limit production, but I don't see that being an issue as heat seems to be more of a limiting factor to current that surface area does.

dennis13030
07-21-2008, 03:09 PM
Dennis, I don't see the difference in SA causing too much of a problem. It would limit the current capacity of the cell to whatever the innermost tube could handle, and therefore limit production, but I don't see that being an issue as heat seems to be more of a limiting factor to current that surface area does.

I agree.

My preference is flat rectangular plates.

countryboy18
07-28-2008, 10:38 PM
thanks for the insight with puting the plates in the same direction "(((((" i also flatten my wall plates. you hit the nail on the head about having the plates like () and )( how it is less efficent. thanks