PDA

View Full Version : HHO improves fuel emissions, Proof



sima.z
06-27-2009, 01:24 PM
Hello to all:
Hydroxy works at least to better fuel emissions. Please see:

This is a report from Colombia S.A. on the Mercedes Benz/66 with dual carbs and very old engine, After I reported that Hydroxy cleaned to much the engine, which I still believe it does; I do have a very nice report especially to all that questions if Hydrtoxy works or not.
We have to change the head gasket; therefore we made a complete tune up including Valves adjustment,
We run the car on a emissions machine tester; for 20 minutes on Gasoline and then another 20 minutes with my cell of Hydroxy. 5”x 5” –NNNN+NNNN- 0-8 gap 0.7 mm 304, 15Amps Aprox 0.8-1 LPM
The tune up went so well that the car even with the 2 carbs runs like EFI motor, After the Hydroxy it was even better. See for yourselves

ONLY GASOLINE WITH HYDROXY

CO2 12.2 10.9
CO 3.4 1.3
HC 300 314
O2 3.57 3.82
Stequimetric MIX 1.118 1.072

The previous test is on minimum 750RPM at 2000 RPM the result are lest visible but still good results. Or so it said the technitian that preformed the test.
I can not report on gas saving due that this is an stationary test, Not sure I will run it with Hydroxy for now since I am not complete sure on the side effects of the Hydroxy in the long run on the engine.

Cheers to all
German Zubieta

Llew2_1
08-16-2009, 07:45 AM
From what I know, HHO will do no harm to your engine. But with an old car like that, you do need to keep the valves adjusted properly. 500 miles after the head was off. You need to check the valve clearances again. Better have a little click the be to tight.

Toomanytoys
03-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Only thing there is the HC went up a little with HHO...
Can anyone explain that? I would have thought it should have gone down as a cleaner burn..
Where are you injecting the HHO? manifold or airbox?

RustyLugNut
03-17-2010, 01:06 PM
Only thing there is the HC went up a little with HHO...
Can anyone explain that? I would have thought it should have gone down as a cleaner burn..
Where are you injecting the HHO? manifold or airbox?

There are too many unknown variables to actually know why. One thing I have seen on very high mileage engines, is the cleaning effect of HHO. The 20 minute run may very well have cleared some fouling as the engine was tested resulting in higher HC readings. It would have been nice to run the car on HHO for a week or two and then retest.

nelshaun
06-20-2011, 10:34 PM
I guess the problem is the very old engine. If that is the case, it will be better if it the Mercedes Benz will have a mercedes benz oem parts. New engine systems right now has better fuel efficiency.

Farrahday
06-21-2011, 09:12 AM
Only thing there is the HC went up a little with HHO...
Can anyone explain that? I would have thought it should have gone down as a cleaner burn..
Where are you injecting the HHO? manifold or airbox?

I think it's been mentioned, but just to add that adding hydroxy will no doubt include some water, and it is well known that injecting water into the engine can clear old carbon deposits from the combustion chamber. It's an old mechanics trick of the trade. So I think that the higher carbon emissions is likely a temporary blip just while the hydroxy and water vapour act as a cleaning agent. I would expect this to settle down in time.

nelshaun
07-07-2011, 11:25 PM
I believe its' just right to get a new head gaskets (http://www.racepages.com/parts/head_gasket.html) to fix fuel emission problems and improve fuel efficiency as well.

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 04:04 PM
Hi,

I installed HHO 772 kit which I bought from HHO KITS DIRECT. Installed the full kit in the trunk of my Corolla 2000 and running a hose (3/4) from bubbler in trunk to air intake through the cabin (under side covering). I am seeing amp gauge showing 30-32 amps, however there is absolutely no difference in engine behavior. I heard lot of goodies about HHO, not sure what I am missing... any ideas how can I improve performance?

I am using NaOH electrolyte, and 4AWG wire from battery (for both +ve and -ve)...

Thanks

Havens78
10-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Did you do anything for electronic control?

You might want to look at putting together and eudiometer (hho meter) to see how many liters per minute you are getting out of your 772. Just to be sure you are getting the proper amount of gas needed for your engine.

I have a 771 installed and have had to make some modifications to it, if you have any questions i'll try to help where I can.

Ken




Hi,

I installed HHO 772 kit which I bought from HHO KITS DIRECT. Installed the full kit in the trunk of my Corolla 2000 and running a hose (3/4) from bubbler in trunk to air intake through the cabin (under side covering). I am seeing amp gauge showing 30-32 amps, however there is absolutely no difference in engine behavior. I heard lot of goodies about HHO, not sure what I am missing... any ideas how can I improve performance?

I am using NaOH electrolyte, and 4AWG wire from battery (for both +ve and -ve)...

Thanks

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 06:27 PM
Did you do anything for electronic control?

You might want to look at putting together and eudiometer (hho meter) to see how many liters per minute you are getting out of your 772. Just to be sure you are getting the proper amount of gas needed for your engine.

I have a 771 installed and have had to make some modifications to it, if you have any questions i'll try to help where I can.

Ken

Thanks for your offer. I initially put PWM (http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/pwm50.htm) but I noticed that even at 100% duty cycle @ 100Hz, it was keeping amps low (25-26), once I take it out, its close to 30.

I tried taking help from the seller (Bob) but he responded to my initial inquiry, advising me to increase the amps to be at least 30... I've poured in over 22 teaspoons of NaOH... to increase Amps...

I am scared of the load its putting on my car's electric system, when I turn it on, its dimming lights .. so I am thinking about lowering my amps.

I am now suspecting it may be because of the long hose (even though I am using 3/4 now instead of 3/8 standard hose) to avoid any blockage. I will build the eudiometer suggested on another thread and will see the LPM at engine side as well as at bubbler side.

Per your experience, do you think even if I keep HHO in trunk, it should still improve performance of my engine?

Thanks again

Thunderball
10-13-2011, 07:39 PM
I have a 772 kit and am having troubles with my ECU overriding everything I'm doing. It's in a 4.3L V-6 Chevy. But what I can tell you from experience....you'll need to get up to 25-30 Amps to get great gas out of those things. It should take about 2-4 teaspoons, that's about it. Make sure you're using distilled water and the proper crystals.

Also....if you're dimming your lights...you're drawing way over 30. Go invest in a good racing Amp gauge. Its' much more accurate. I got mine from Summit Racing and paid about $15 for it. I got a 60A gauge and it reads really nice. My kit did not come with a gauge, but I went earlier and got a $5 one from Harbor Freight....junk. It was not accurate after 20A. I kept adding electrolyte until I blew my relay and melted wires. I now have a SunPro Amp gauge and it works great.

Why you're not feeling any performance? One of a few things. You're ECU is compensating for the mix, your system is too far away from the engine, you may have to reset your ECU and run a few tanks of gas. Could be any one of those.

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 07:52 PM
I have a 772 kit and am having troubles with my ECU overriding everything I'm doing. It's in a 4.3L V-6 Chevy. But what I can tell you from experience....you'll need to get up to 25-30 Amps to get great gas out of those things. It should take about 2-4 teaspoons, that's about it. Make sure you're using distilled water and the proper crystals.

Also....if you're dimming your lights...you're drawing way over 30. Go invest in a good racing Amp gauge. Its' much more accurate. I got mine from Summit Racing and paid about $15 for it. I got a 60A gauge and it reads really nice. My kit did not come with a gauge, but I went earlier and got a $5 one from Harbor Freight....junk. It was not accurate after 20A. I kept adding electrolyte until I blew my relay and melted wires. I now have a SunPro Amp gauge and it works great.

Why you're not feeling any performance? One of a few things. You're ECU is compensating for the mix, your system is too far away from the engine, you may have to reset your ECU and run a few tanks of gas. Could be any one of those.

I am also confused as why the heck am I not seeing any changes in engine behavior. I will get another gauge (from local store in Toronto - Princess Auto) and see what amps are drawn... Per the current gauge (which came with 772 kit) when I used only 10 teaspoons of NaOH (came with kit) crystal, it was taking only about 15 amps.

After reading your comments, I am now thinking, may be my gauge is not showing me correct value and that, it may be over 30 amps putting load on alternator which in turn would be putting load on engine. Since engine in my Corolla is pretty small (1.6L) its taking hit... I am also using mileage chip from the same seller, I keep resetting it even then, there is no power increment nor fuel saving...

The volts at battery are 14.10v and at generator, its 13.70v. Again, I am using 4AWG soft wire (from car audio guy).

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 07:53 PM
I have a 772 kit and am having troubles with my ECU overriding everything I'm doing. It's in a 4.3L V-6 Chevy. But what I can tell you from experience....you'll need to get up to 25-30 Amps to get great gas out of those things. It should take about 2-4 teaspoons, that's about it. Make sure you're using distilled water and the proper crystals.

Also....if you're dimming your lights...you're drawing way over 30. Go invest in a good racing Amp gauge. Its' much more accurate. I got mine from Summit Racing and paid about $15 for it. I got a 60A gauge and it reads really nice. My kit did not come with a gauge, but I went earlier and got a $5 one from Harbor Freight....junk. It was not accurate after 20A. I kept adding electrolyte until I blew my relay and melted wires. I now have a SunPro Amp gauge and it works great.

Why you're not feeling any performance? One of a few things. You're ECU is compensating for the mix, your system is too far away from the engine, you may have to reset your ECU and run a few tanks of gas. Could be any one of those.

For your issue, may be you should try Mileage Chip or Performance Chip...

Havens78
10-13-2011, 08:02 PM
Volk sold you a 772 for a 1.6 liter corolla? (shakes head) You only need .8 lpm for an engine that size, but placement and distance may be an issue. I've had luck with the volo fs2 and failures with it, you might send an email to support and ask for the proper resetting procedure and if that doesn't work have them reflash or send you an EFIE in replacement of it.

i have to use 4-5 tablespoons of NaOH to get the amperage up to 30 on my 771, its always easier to add more than remove it.





I am also confused as why the heck am I not seeing any changes in engine behavior. I will get another gauge (from local store in Toronto - Princess Auto) and see what amps are drawn... Per the current gauge (which came with 772 kit) when I used only 10 teaspoons of NaOH (came with kit) crystal, it was taking only about 15 amps.

After reading your comments, I am now thinking, may be my gauge is not showing me correct value and that, it may be over 30 amps putting load on alternator which in turn would be putting load on engine. Since engine in my Corolla is pretty small (1.6L) its taking hit... I am also using mileage chip from the same seller, I keep resetting it even then, there is no power increment nor fuel saving...

The volts at battery are 14.10v and at generator, its 13.70v. Again, I am using 4AWG soft wire (from car audio guy).

Thunderball
10-13-2011, 08:04 PM
I originally had a Mileage Chip, but sent it back because I couldn't get it to work. I did get one tank of gas with +6 mpg and was thrilled. But, my O2 sensors were worn. I sent the chip back and got an EFIE dual narrowband. Wired that in and nothing. No response at all from the ECU or the engine. Mileage neither went up, and actually went down 2mpg. I did some research on the Volo chip, and they all seem about the same, even the one from Transitional. If you go on the Volo forum, there's numerous ways to reset that chip. I think the key is resetting the ECU then resetting the chip when the engine is good and hot and good HHO going in. Then take it on a 50 mile ride.

I'm not going to send the EFIE back and get a Mileage Chip again. Going to also work with a OBDII technician to help monitor what the chip is doing.

Also, I think if you get a good Amp gauge, you'll see what little it takes to get to 30 amps. You were probably up around 50 or so if you were dimming lights!

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 08:14 PM
I originally had a Mileage Chip, but sent it back because I couldn't get it to work. I did get one tank of gas with +6 mpg and was thrilled. But, my O2 sensors were worn. I sent the chip back and got an EFIE dual narrowband. Wired that in and nothing. No response at all from the ECU or the engine. Mileage neither went up, and actually went down 2mpg. I did some research on the Volo chip, and they all seem about the same, even the one from Transitional. If you go on the Volo forum, there's numerous ways to reset that chip. I think the key is resetting the ECU then resetting the chip when the engine is good and hot and good HHO going in. Then take it on a 50 mile ride.

I'm not going to send the EFIE back and get a Mileage Chip again. Going to also work with a OBDII technician to help monitor what the chip is doing.

Also, I think if you get a good Amp gauge, you'll see what little it takes to get to 30 amps. You were probably up around 50 or so if you were dimming lights!

Makes sense to me... I have put my PWM back and set it to 50%, the gauge is showing 15Amps now... will buy another one...

Also, the regular mileage is 12.5KMs/Liter now, in first tank, it was 11.6 and now its 12 after increasing hose diameter and wire (from 8G and 4AWG) and also by adding extra electrolyte.

My generator and reservoir get really hot within 5 minutes. I think I am overloading whole system, generator + alternator causing load on engine. I just did test on LPM, I just built eudiometer the LPM at engine side is about 2LPM from my 772. Not sure if it is just HHO gas there or steam mix...I am still searching for torch tip that I can use at hose end to see if I can lit flame... any ideas on this side?

I will try to reset Mileage chip and ECU but after replacing the ammeter...Thanks

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Volk sold you a 772 for a 1.6 liter corolla? (shakes head) You only need .8 lpm for an engine that size, but placement and distance may be an issue. I've had luck with the volo fs2 and failures with it, you might send an email to support and ask for the proper resetting procedure and if that doesn't work have them reflash or send you an EFIE in replacement of it.

i have to use 4-5 tablespoons of NaOH to get the amperage up to 30 on my 771, its always easier to add more than remove it.

He didn't say any thing about that, he just sold me what I ordered. For sure, 772 is much bigger than the space in the engine bay, this is why I had install in trunk... even if there is a loss by keeping it distant from engine, I thought 772 will make up for the loss by producing extra LPM of HHO... but till yet, 0 changes!!! One question, if you saw the pics I uploaded, am I using too much space in air in-take? I am using 3/4 elbow inside the air intake facing engine... this is occupying 50% of the air intake hose diameter...

Thunderball
10-13-2011, 08:20 PM
Be very careful lighting the gas!!! Don't do it directly off the hose. What I did in testing was inserted the end of the hose (that goes into the intake) into a bowl of water....basically a second bubbler. Then, light the bubbles with a lighter or one of those torch lighters, with the extended tip. Those bubbles will blow like firecrackers. It's pretty cool, but VERY explosive!!! Go do a search on YouTube for HHO explosions and there's some pretty crazy people out there!!

Wow...I was hoping the 772 would output more! They quote 4-6lpm on the site I think. Maybe once you get your electrolyte etc. straightened out, you'll be fine. I never checked mine, but it sure pumps out the bubbles...and lighting them was fun, especially at night!! Be careful!!

Lone Maverick
10-13-2011, 08:27 PM
Be very careful lighting the gas!!! Don't do it directly off the hose. What I did in testing was inserted the end of the hose (that goes into the intake) into a bowl of water....basically a second bubbler. Then, light the bubbles with a lighter or one of those torch lighters, with the extended tip. Those bubbles will blow like firecrackers. It's pretty cool, but VERY explosive!!! Go do a search on YouTube for HHO explosions and there's some pretty crazy people out there!!

Wow...I was hoping the 772 would output more! They quote 4-6lpm on the site I think. Maybe once you get your electrolyte etc. straightened out, you'll be fine. I never checked mine, but it sure pumps out the bubbles...and lighting them was fun, especially at night!! Be careful!!

:) I did that couple of times... this is why I am looking for torch tip, which mixes air with the gas.... Bob has a video on his home page, cutting witth HHO gas, he is using a torch tip... if we use that, we may get an idea about purity of the HHO system output. I hope I am using extra amps and that by diluting water in reservoir would increase performance...

One thing though, I am using windshield washer in the bubbler (not reservoir), could this be causing any problems? Should I just try replacing washer fluid by just plain water...

Thunderball
10-13-2011, 08:44 PM
I have wiper fluid in my secondary one too. That's not it. That keeps it from freezing in the winter.

Here's a link to a site where I found a flowmeter. McMaster-Carr is about 40 minutes from me, but they ship all over. I would think an Oxygen flowmeter would get you close.



http://www.mcmaster.com/WebParts/Content/CtlgPageWebPart/CtlgPageShell.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=538&RelatedCtlgPgs=538%2C539%2C540%2C541%2C542%2C543&CtlgEdition=117&viewporthgt=791&ScreenWidth=1680&McMMainWidth=1596#

lhazleton
10-13-2011, 09:47 PM
My generator and reservoir get really hot within 5 minutes. I think I am overloading whole system, generator + alternator causing load on engine. I

OK, before you go any further, you've got problems. I looked at the HHOkits website. They say nothing about how the reactors are built. If the reactor and reservoir are getting hot, it means that it's improperly constructed. Probably set up as -NNN+NNN- or some similar cheapie crap. A well built reactor will run cool (100f) with maximum strength KOH (28%) or NaOH (20%).

Lone Maverick
10-14-2011, 12:08 AM
OK, before you go any further, you've got problems. I looked at the HHOkits website. They say nothing about how the reactors are built. If the reactor and reservoir are getting hot, it means that it's improperly constructed. Probably set up as -NNN+NNN- or some similar cheapie crap. A well built reactor will run cool (100f) with maximum strength KOH (28%) or NaOH (20%).

There are three terminals in my generator and they are setup as +-+. do you think i should change it to -+-?

Also i used about 22 teaspoons of NaOH crystals in 3 litres of distilled water as my ammeter was not showing 30 amps with standard 10 teaspoons of electrolyte... I am going to change gauge.. Could over dozing hho with electrolyte cause zero performane in car? Like putting more load on alternator and ths putting load on engine?

Darrell
10-14-2011, 01:55 AM
Mav, how many plates are in you reactor. How many plates are between the positive and negative plates? I just can't believe you could be pulling only 30 amps with positive and negatives next to each other with 22 teaspoons.

"D"

Lone Maverick
10-14-2011, 08:28 AM
Mav, how many plates are in you reactor. How many plates are between the positive and negative plates? I just can't believe you could be pulling only 30 amps with positive and negatives next to each other with 22 teaspoons.

"D"

I am not sure how many plates are in the generator. I just bought the kit looking at overall specs. You may find details about this generator at:
http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/midsize_hydrogen_generator.php

I am going to replace gauge and water in mt HHO system, will make sure there is no choking as I noticed that one of the two outlets of the generator is not much producing bubbles as compared to the other one.

Havens78
10-14-2011, 08:51 AM
The hho kits direct stack set up is difficult to tell how it is built but from conversations that i have had with Mr. Bob Volk on issues with his systems i have determined the following.

In my single stack 771 i can see 5 plates only through the electrolyte holes (haven't taken it apart yet)
configuration looks like +nnn- 772 should be +nnn-nnn+ and 773 +nnn-nnn+nnn- (i'm hoping i'm wrong here and there are at least 4 neutrals)
Top and bottom of plates are visible and sit in bath of the electrolyte, best i can tell the center section is milled out for the plates (perhaps taking a tip from Boyce and the D9 document). I do not believe the plates are media blasted or weld-on 16 is used at the end of the plates from the support conversations i have had only sanding and cleaning is done.

His site shows him using a dywer oxygen measurement glass to measure the gas, which we have already stated here will throw hho measurements higher than they actually are. I've tried time and time again to get the output he does at 20 amps and it takes 30 amps on the 771 to hit 1.5 LPM. His support line states that its just fine for the electrolyte to get up to 130 degrees as the plastics in the unit will handle it just fine. And that if i needed more production just add more amps up to 50 if i needed to. (this seemed a little odd to me when i was told this as I thought dry cells were supposed to run cooler than wet cells but I went with it because i thought he knew what he was doing)

Excuse the soap-box.

Lone Maverick
10-14-2011, 09:00 AM
The hho kits direct stack set up is difficult to tell how it is built but from conversations that i have had with Mr. Bob Volk on issues with his systems i have determined the following.

In my single stack 771 i can see 5 plates only through the electrolyte holes (haven't taken it apart yet)
configuration looks like +nnn- 772 should be +nnn-nnn+ and 773 +nnn-nnn+nnn- (i'm hoping i'm wrong here and there are at least 4 neutrals)
Top and bottom of plates are visible and sit in bath of the electrolyte, best i can tell the center section is milled out for the plates (perhaps taking a tip from Boyce and the D9 document). I do not believe the plates are media blasted or weld-on 16 is used at the end of the plates from the support conversations i have had only sanding and cleaning is done.

His site shows him using a dywer oxygen measurement glass to measure the gas, which we have already stated here will throw hho measurements higher than they actually are. I've tried time and time again to get the output he does at 20 amps and it takes 30 amps on the 771 to hit 1.5 LPM. His support line states that its just fine for the electrolyte to get up to 130 degrees as the plastics in the unit will handle it just fine. And that if i needed more production just add more amps up to 50 if i needed to. (this seemed a little odd to me when i was told this as I thought dry cells were supposed to run cooler than wet cells but I went with it because i thought he knew what he was doing)

Excuse the soap-box.

Thanks for sharing your experience. So what should be done now, we have already spent money on it, in my case I've spent over $900!! We must get result from this system. Do you see a big difference in your ICE performance by hooking up 771? Are you using Mileage chip also?

Can you please share the picture of the point where you are connecting the HHO hose with air intake... may be I using large size elbow inside the air-intake... please see the picture attached and let me know if I am wrong there, if I should keep the internal pipe smaller than 3/4 size elbow.

Havens78
10-14-2011, 09:35 AM
I do not have the pictures of my intake injection point on this computer, I can upload those tonight. Your connection should work just fine, is it close to the throttle body intake housing? I have mine set up 2-3 inches away from the throttle body. When you measure your gas output are you measuring it in the trunk or under the hood? Is there room for a secondary bubbler in the engine compartment of your car? (just to make sure the gas is clean, may not be needed but might give you a better way to tell everything is working correctly).

I am using the mileage chip and am seeing positive results, once i build a new cell i'll hopefully see the same results with just 20 amps or less. If your producing enough gas and still no results than it might be the chip or electronics you are using. But i totally understand about the cost issue, a friend of mine installed the 773 and to date we're only getting 1.5 LPM out of it. A question to the support line about what could be causing this only got me a reply of "We don't warrant gas output of our units, (insert link to warranty)". I'll be taking that unit apart and trying to rebuild it over thanksgiving.

Lone Maverick
10-14-2011, 09:49 AM
I do not have the pictures of my intake injection point on this computer, I can upload those tonight. Your connection should work just fine, is it close to the throttle body intake housing? I have mine set up 2-3 inches away from the throttle body. When you measure your gas output are you measuring it in the trunk or under the hood? Is there room for a secondary bubbler in the engine compartment of your car? (just to make sure the gas is clean, may not be needed but might give you a better way to tell everything is working correctly).

I am using the mileage chip and am seeing positive results, once i build a new cell i'll hopefully see the same results with just 20 amps or less. If your producing enough gas and still no results than it might be the chip or electronics you are using. But i totally understand about the cost issue, a friend of mine installed the 773 and to date we're only getting 1.5 LPM out of it. A question to the support line about what could be causing this only got me a reply of "We don't warrant gas output of our units, (insert link to warranty)". I'll be taking that unit apart and trying to rebuild it over thanksgiving.

Hi

I would be interested in seeing the picture of your air intake connection. My HHO connection is about 6" inches away from throttle body, this is the only closest place as there is a rubber hose right after that running into the throttle body. The connection is after the MAF sensor towards the engine.

I am suspecting that may be the size of HHO elbow running inside the air intake (to face towards throttle body) is taking too much space (occupying about 50% of space inside the air intake hose).

This is the biggest problem, before you buy something, seller keeps you in a dream world, everything is just perfect and he/ she is the best person to do business with, once the transaction is done, you are left alone!

What do you suggest, should I also take the generator apart and see if something can be done? I am in Toronto and its almost impossible to find HHO parts here. Most of the stuff is in US and it takes over 2 weeks to get something... (if I should go for bubbler). May be I should move the single bubbler I already have close to reservoir and put it close to engine instead?

I see no difference in engine behavior when I recalibrate performance chip... instead I am seeing fuel consumption going up! (12.5 (without HHO to 11.8 with HHO initially, and now 12 after increasing hose size and 4AWG).

Lone Maverick
10-14-2011, 09:52 AM
I do not have the pictures of my intake injection point on this computer, I can upload those tonight. Your connection should work just fine, is it close to the throttle body intake housing? I have mine set up 2-3 inches away from the throttle body. When you measure your gas output are you measuring it in the trunk or under the hood? Is there room for a secondary bubbler in the engine compartment of your car? (just to make sure the gas is clean, may not be needed but might give you a better way to tell everything is working correctly).

I am using the mileage chip and am seeing positive results, once i build a new cell i'll hopefully see the same results with just 20 amps or less. If your producing enough gas and still no results than it might be the chip or electronics you are using. But i totally understand about the cost issue, a friend of mine installed the 773 and to date we're only getting 1.5 LPM out of it. A question to the support line about what could be causing this only got me a reply of "We don't warrant gas output of our units, (insert link to warranty)". I'll be taking that unit apart and trying to rebuild it over thanksgiving.

Also, this is why I am looking for connection a torch with HHO hose to see if the gas coming out of it is HHO (by burning flame). I can't lit directly from the hose.

lhazleton
10-14-2011, 10:43 AM
Also, this is why I am looking for connection a torch with HHO hose to see if the gas coming out of it is HHO (by burning flame). I can't lit directly from the hose.

If you just want to ignite the gas, it's simple! Put water in a little bucket. Pour a bit of dish soap in without making bubbles. Put the hose into the bucket. When there are enough bubbles to satisfy you, remove the hose and light the bubbles with a match (outdoors). It'll be quite loud.

As far as your connection goes, never put it after the throttle body. It'll suck everything dry.

lhazleton
10-14-2011, 10:54 AM
In my single stack 771 i can see 5 plates only through the electrolyte holes (haven't taken it apart yet)
configuration looks like +nnn- 772 should be +nnn-nnn+ and 773 +nnn-nnn+nnn- (i'm hoping i'm wrong here and there are at least 4 neutrals)


If you can see the individual plates by looking through the E/lyte hole, that means the plates don't even have staggered holes for E/lyte and gas. Huge current loss = heat= low actual production. 3 bi-polar plates per stack isn't making much hho, it's mostly steam caused by hitting each individual cell with an insane 3.45 volts. This is why we all use a minimum of 5 bi-polars, I've never used less than 6 myself (1.97volts per cell).

Lone Maverick
10-14-2011, 11:29 AM
Can you guys please suggest me what to do now to get performance out of my HHO system? Given that I have 772 installed in trunk, using PWM (can take it out), running on 4AWG, wires (both +ve and -ve) and using larger hose 3/4 all the way after 4" from bubbler to air intake (with elbow - 3/4" inside the air intake to face towards throttle body after MAF).

lhazleton
10-14-2011, 12:25 PM
If you really need help, you must post pictures of everything (reactor, reservoir, bubbler/scrubber, etc). Also, any info that pertains to the setup ( plate size, active area, configuration, electrolyte percentage, vehicle, engine, EFIE, MAF/MAP enhancement, and so on). The more information you make available, the more we can help.;)

Lone Maverick
10-16-2011, 12:51 AM
If you really need help, you must post pictures of everything (reactor, reservoir, bubbler/scrubber, etc). Also, any info that pertains to the setup ( plate size, active area, configuration, electrolyte percentage, vehicle, engine, EFIE, MAF/MAP enhancement, and so on). The more information you make available, the more we can help.;)

Hi,

I took out all my HHO, every joints and pipes. I put goop in all joints and put them back. I found out that the original gauge was showing about 5Amps lower (when it was showing 30, actually it was 35). I've replaced that with panel gauge (30 Amps). I flushed whole system, filled in distilled water and poured about 10 leveled tea spoon of NaOH. Now I am seeing that the amps are between 25 to 30, floating. Sometimes its showing 22 and sometimes over 30.

I checked LPM (eudiometer) and its about 1.5 LPM at engine side (16ft away from bubbler). I checked the same at bubbler side (6" distance) and its the same LPM.

I also checked gas for steam and its all dry and it is HHO. I connected 500ml empty dry mineral bottle with hose and while keeping it upside down, I put flint at its mouth and it blasted (I was well prepared for the blast , I took all safety measure before doing this :) ).

Now I think my mileage chip might be causing the problem. so I will take it out tomorrow and see what happens.

Can you please guide me what should be the symptoms after turning on HHO (engine behavior)? Also what should happen if mileage chip is connected (symptoms please)?

I am still seeing lights dimming when I turn on HHO (about 10% dimming), is this normal?

I am attaching all pictures for your reference. Please let me know about your thoughts.

I am using 4AWG wires for both +ve and -ve.

I've poured 10 leveled tea spoons of electrolyte in 2.5 liters of distilled water

I am using PWM, however at 100% duty cycle (still loss of about 2 Amps)

The amps are floating, sometimes showing less than 20 amps, sometimes over 30 (randomly, doesn't matter how long I am running the system).

I am up converting hose size from 3/8" to 3/4" after 6" from bubbler. The 3/4" hose is running through the foot board in cabin and engine bay through passenger door opening for OEM wiring (I've taken out the sealing rubber to have space of passing hose through it). There is no blockage of air, as LPM on bubbler and enigne sides are same, so no loss of HHO through 16ft hose.

I am using 3/4" elbow inside the air intake of engine to make sure it creates vacuum to suck HHO (its about 8" distant from throttle body, I've put it after MAF sensor in airflow), this is taking about 50% of the space inside the air intake, could this cause and issue?

Please let me know.

Thanks!

Havens78
10-17-2011, 08:37 AM
I really think that your problem is with the mileage chip. when you reset it make sure the engine and hho have been running for about 15-20 minutes and are warm. Manufacturer says it can take up to 120 miles after this reset for the chip to completely reset itself. There are a few threads on this if you search for 'volo', some people are having luck with them and some are having no luck at all.

THe unit is making plenty of gas for your engine size, when my chip hasn't worked i've lost 2-3 mpg on the hwy. And i get a better gain on hwy miles than i do in town, don't get discouraged you'll figure this out.

Lone Maverick
10-17-2011, 08:57 AM
I really think that your problem is with the mileage chip. when you reset it make sure the engine and hho have been running for about 15-20 minutes and are warm. Manufacturer says it can take up to 120 miles after this reset for the chip to completely reset itself. There are a few threads on this if you search for 'volo', some people are having luck with them and some are having no luck at all.

THe unit is making plenty of gas for your engine size, when my chip hasn't worked i've lost 2-3 mpg on the hwy. And i get a better gain on hwy miles than i do in town, don't get discouraged you'll figure this out.

Thanks for your suggestion. I've disconnected mileage chip last night, so now I am testing the engine behavior. I am feeling a bit of engine power with HHO on. My system is taking about 20Amps producing over 1.5LPM (on engine side).

Now I am thinking about keeping HHO hose very close to throttle body instead of keeping about 8" distant in air intake. Do you think it will help?

Also, should I still increase Amps in my HHO to 30ish?

Thanks again

Havens78
10-17-2011, 11:14 AM
If you are getting 1.5 lpm at 20 amps i'd stick with that, the minimum you need for your 1.8 liter engine is .9 lpm.

if your mileage chip doesn't work after a month or so of fussing with it, contact support and get a EFIE for your O2 sensors. Don't give up on it, i spent 2 months trying to dial mine in so i understand the frustration. We'd get 40% on the hwy and then -5% in town one week and then 10% increase in town the next week, it takes a while to get it just right. Even now our percentages jump around, but its more because of traffic in town than anything now.

I would suggest moving the injection point closer than 8" away, i have mine set about 3" from the throttle body. I would try messing with the electronics first though before you drill another hole in your intake. :)

Lone Maverick
10-17-2011, 11:34 AM
If you are getting 1.5 lpm at 20 amps i'd stick with that, the minimum you need for your 1.8 liter engine is .9 lpm.

if your mileage chip doesn't work after a month or so of fussing with it, contact support and get a EFIE for your O2 sensors. Don't give up on it, i spent 2 months trying to dial mine in so i understand the frustration. We'd get 40% on the hwy and then -5% in town one week and then 10% increase in town the next week, it takes a while to get it just right. Even now our percentages jump around, but its more because of traffic in town than anything now.

I would suggest moving the injection point closer than 8" away, i have mine set about 3" from the throttle body. I would try messing with the electronics first though before you drill another hole in your intake. :)

Thanks for your thoughts. So I believe the formula for LPM would be divide engine liters by 2?

For Mileage chip, I will drive my car without the chip for now, will observe engine behavior. Once I see difference in performance with HHO vs without HHO, I will get back to the chip.

For keep the HHO injection point closer to throttle body, I will run a tube inside the air intake duct and so it will release HHO about 3" closer to throttle.

This is for sure that even a very small leak in hose running from reactor to reservoir and bubbler causes loss of gas! Since I replaced manufacturer's sealing paste with goop Ia m seeing 1.5LPM from 20Amps. you must put goop in joints even where you are using clamps to seal hose with elbow or joints.

This is for sure that this HHO business is not easy and not any one can just do it, one has to be really technical and patient... as its not easy for justify the investment of $800 - $1000 on this system.

Per your experience, should I be looking for any symptom (other than acceleration) from engine noise or exhaust to see reaction of car for HHO?

Thanks again

Havens78
10-17-2011, 01:57 PM
In my experience other than slightly more acceleration and throttle response the only other noticeable change is the smell of the exhaust. I can get my wife to talk to me in the garage (with the doors open of course) while i'm running tests if i have my unit on in her car, if its off all I usually hear is "oh, it stinks in here again why is the hydrogen off?".

lhazleton
10-17-2011, 08:09 PM
If you're putting 1.5 LPM into a 1.8 liter engine, you're defeating yourself.
Dial the pwm down so that you're getting 1 LPM only. Anything over that is overkill and will decrease the HHO benefits. As far as the chip goes, they rarely work. You'd be better off with an EFIE & MAP controller.

Lone Maverick
10-18-2011, 08:35 AM
Thanks guys. I've put a hose (3/4") right in front of the elbow in HHO injection area to keep the opening close to throttle body (about 2 inches away). I am noticing little improvement in acceleration. I am now going to dial the PWM down to keep output about 1LPM. My amps keep floating though, sometimes I am seeing 30Amps sometimes I its 20... any idea why does it happen (does it happen with you guys too)?

Thanks for the great help again!! I will draft all my findings and things I did to improve performance so it may be helpful to others also.

lhazleton
10-18-2011, 09:38 AM
My amps keep floating though, sometimes I am seeing 30Amps sometimes I its 20... any idea why does it happen (does it happen with you guys too)?
.

Most likely do to not having enough neutral plates. With the higher voltage per cell with this design, the cells will be flooded. Then, when producing gas, the pressure will force electrolyte out of the cells, lowering the amp. draw.

Lone Maverick
10-18-2011, 10:11 AM
Most likely do to not having enough neutral plates. With the higher voltage per cell with this design, the cells will be flooded. Then, when producing gas, the pressure will force electrolyte out of the cells, lowering the amp. draw.

Thanks, another thing... I connected ammeter in positive line, I am now reading everywhere that the ammeter should be connected to negative line. I will change the wiring and will see if that brings any further improvements.

Lone Maverick
10-19-2011, 08:08 PM
Guys, I just received response from Bob Volk (HHO Kits Direct)... related to issues I am having with my HHO:

The amps look ok, though with about 7 tbsp you should be closer to 30-35 amps. It is common to see the hho gas- it is not steam- be very careful and do not try to light it or you will find out how powerful it is.
The units operate in the 135 degree F range which is normal.
Not sure if the ¾ inch hose is a good idea though- we tried many different sizes and the 3/8 is best for overall use. Though we did not try over such a long distance as that.
If all is working, and you have no leaks, and you connected direct to battery not vehicle ground, then the only other thing it could be is the chip not interfacing well with car ecu. Check the list below and recalibrate once more after everything is warmed up to operating temps. If it still doesn’t work- we may need to swap for an efie/maf.

MILEAGE CHIP CHECKLIST- FOR DIAGNOSING MILEAGE CHIP PROBLEMS
Step 1 - Press the reset button.
Step 2 - Verify the correct port was used (OBD-II). Some vehicles have diagnostic ports that look very similar to the OBD-II port, but are not tapered on the sides.
Step 3 - Verify the tap-in connectors were installed properly. Failure to crimp the connectors all the way down will result in a poor connection. DO NOT push wires into the OBD-II port, as this will cause a short.
Step 4 - Using a volt meter or continuity tester, verify pin 4 is grounded.
Step 5 - Using a volt meter or continuity tester, verify pin 16 is 4.6VDC+ to 15VDC+ when key is turned to IGN position. If not, check fuses.

The Mileage Chip should display a steady green light immediately after successful calibration. If the unit displays a steady red light, then it has failed calibration, will probably need to be returned for a diagnostic/re-flash or replacement.

Does not exit Stand-By Mode
Problem (VPW and some ISO protocols) : Unit will not exit stand-by mode, indicated by no PWR light and DATA flashes quickly every 3-5 seconds.
Solution : Move the green wire to pin 9.

CALIBRATION: First- warm up engine and HHO kit to full operating temperature. Turn off and immediately press reset button on chip. Let calibrate for 2-4 minutes. Then restart engine/hho generator (do not press down accelerator or race engine)- let idle for 2-4 minutes as the chip reads and calibrates.

Give it 150-200 miles to settle in.

Try those first before returning chip

Hope this helps those who are having issues with their mileage chip...

mmdowd
01-29-2012, 08:15 AM
Hi Havens78
Lone Maverick is not having much luck with his 772
You say you have a 771, what has been your experience.? I cancelled an order for a 772 in lieu of a unit that separates the hydrogen and lets the oxygen back to the atmosphere. Haven't ordered yet. No one seems to have a consensus of opinion on what to buy, love to hear some opinions
mike I am in Australia

myoldyourgold
01-29-2012, 11:33 AM
Mike from down under the splitter reactors do work but the results are less than using HHO and good electronics as far as increased mileage goes. Both clean up the exhaust. Most of the splitter reactors out there are inefficient and suffer with some bleed over under some conditions. To prevent bleed over 100% of the time cheaply makes the reactor inefficient. To solve this problem is very costly because of the patented membrane that one would have to use. There are a number of people working on this to solve the problem. I will be testing a new system sometime in the near feature and will post the results.

Havens78
01-29-2012, 02:35 PM
Hi Havens78
Lone Maverick is not having much luck with his 772
You say you have a 771, what has been your experience.? I cancelled an order for a 772 in lieu of a unit that separates the hydrogen and lets the oxygen back to the atmosphere. Haven't ordered yet. No one seems to have a consensus of opinion on what to buy, love to hear some opinions
mike I am in Australia

I have had mixed results with my 771, i'm actually working on a 773 currently that was malfunctioning. I've had luck with the Volo chip in my wifes car, but haven't had any luck with the chip in any other vehicles. And even in my wifes car it isn't consistent mpg increases, i'm thinking of going with a efie upgrade after i finish the install on another vehicle. Has Lone Maverick tried an efie or is he still working with the chip?

Lone Maverick
01-30-2012, 09:49 AM
I have had mixed results with my 771, i'm actually working on a 773 currently that was malfunctioning. I've had luck with the Volo chip in my wifes car, but haven't had any luck with the chip in any other vehicles. And even in my wifes car it isn't consistent mpg increases, i'm thinking of going with a efie upgrade after i finish the install on another vehicle. Has Lone Maverick tried an efie or is he still working with the chip?

Hi guys,

I want to share my findings with my experiments;

1) For sure, you should not and cannot install HHO reactor in trunk. Reactor/ bubbler should be less than 6 ft away from engine air intake.

2) Adding HHO in car system does not increase mileage, yet it increases just power

3) Use MAF/ EFIE to reduce car fuel consumption, however you cannot set one sensor alone without tweaking other as otherwise you will see DTCs thrown

4) You must tweak other sensors to make sure ECU does detect DTC situation (172 is the famous code)

5) For sure, you cannot gain consistent improvements in city, this technology works great on constant (almost) RPM, so best suited for highways. This makes sense as in City, engine RPM goes high and low demanding more HHO at the high RPM, which might not be sufficient, so when you are cruising on Hwys, engine is at lower RPM (like 2 - 2.5K) so it best utilizes HHO production

6) The biggest problem with HHO is, if you are overproducing/ injecting in engine (like low RPM) ECU will advance the mixture detecting more oxygen in O2s so at lower RPM the consumption is really bad, if you reduce HHO production (using PWM), it will not suffice engine needs at high RPM. This is why if you read more about HHOs and tuning cars for HHO, you will notice sellers talking about tuning car at cruising speed (consistent).

7) Even if you don't use HHO, just tweak sensors, you will be able to save on fuel, however it will compromise engine power/ acceleration big time!!!

8) If you are in cold weather, don't expect much HHO production from reactor as water is cold! I am in Toronto and I see big difference in HHO performance when its cold outside or warm. in warm weather, I see Amps shooting up to 11 and in cold it stays under 4Amps. I am not using 772, I am using different kit now, as 772 is just overkill to car's electric system producing 1LPM using 30Amps!!!

9) Sorry, but I don't trust Mileage chips, as its impossible to gain same improvements as compared to tweaking the actual sensors!

I've uninstalled 772, and tried MightyMite http://www.ebay.ca/itm/BRAND-NEW-MIGHTY-MITE-MODEL-4-8-HHO-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-CELL-KIT-/250979751102?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6f8f14be, believe me my friends, I've seen a major improvements in my car from HHO perspective.This system uses under 10Amps and produces about 1LPM, which is more than enough for my use.

I am doing all experiments on my wife's 2000 Corolla. I've seen mileage with HHO in city = 10KMs/ L(without HHO = 12KMs/L) and HWys 16KMs/L (without HHO = 14KMs/L) using MAFe and MightyMite HHO (using 9Amps).

I have a simple HHO detector in my car, when its on and producing high HHO, I hear knocking sound from engine and it becomes active (even with MAFe).

Per my understanding, an ideal HHO system would be the one producing more HHO at higher engine RPM and vice versa.

This is per my findings after trying different things on my car/ HHO. Please feel free to agree or object my point of view (using decent language please).

myoldyourgold
01-30-2012, 11:41 AM
Lone Maverick, I can tell you have done a lot of hands on work and I agree with most of it if not all. Number 2 is possibly correct but also misleading. It might be better stated that by increasing HP you use less fuel to go the same speed so using HHO does decrease the use of fuel or give you better MPG. Winter will never be as good as summer in the frozen north but there are things you can do to get better results but not with the Might Mite.

Darol's Mighty Mite does give gains but they are limited in most cases as you have seen but still gains and if that is enough then OK. Tuning is half the battle and the other half is a reactor that is efficient and its volume is matched to engine. One very important point is that when tuned right you have no loss of power. I have seen to many vehicles claiming higher mileage but barely drag their butts around.

Lone Maverick
01-30-2012, 11:52 AM
Lone Maverick, I can tell you have done a lot of hands on work and I agree with most of it if not all. Number 2 is possibly correct but also misleading. It might be better stated that by increasing HP you use less fuel to go the same speed so using HHO does decrease the use of fuel or give you better MPG. Winter will never be as good as summer in the frozen north but there are things you can do to get better results but not with the Might Mite.

Darol's Mighty Mite does give gains but they are limited in most cases as you have seen but still gains and if that is enough then OK. Tuning is half the battle and the other half is a reactor that is efficient and its volume is matched to engine. One very important point is that when tuned right you have no loss of power. I have seen to many vehicles claiming higher mileage but barely drag their butts around.


Thanks myoldyourgold for your comments. The thing is every one of us has different experience and findings from HHO experiments. I just thought to share all my findings, I am still waiting for weather to get warm so I can continue with my experiment. I am also thinking about some how heat up the water in reactor to improve efficiency. I am planning to break Darol's kit and re-assemble it with lesser spacing between plates and thinner spacers to expose the plates more. I am sure this will further improve performance as spacers are pretty thick (half centimeter thick and .82 cm wide).

However, I am still awaiting you to reveal your invention (as you told me last year) :)...

Lone Maverick
01-30-2012, 11:54 AM
Thanks myoldyourgold for your comments. The thing is every one of us has different experience and findings from HHO experiments. I just thought to share all my findings, I am still waiting for weather to get warm so I can continue with my experiment. I am also thinking about some how heat up the water in reactor to improve efficiency. I am planning to break Darol's kit and re-assemble it with lesser spacing between plates and thinner spacers to expose the plates more. I am sure this will further improve performance as spacers are pretty thick (half centimeter thick and .82 cm wide).

However, I am still awaiting you to reveal your invention (as you told me last year) :)...

Further more, I initially installed mighty mite behind bumper, now I am moving it to firewall, right above exhaust so it may keep the electrolyte warm.... I hope this will help during winter in Toronto deep freezer.

Weapon_R
01-30-2012, 01:32 PM
Lone Maverick

I am interested in the mighty mite. I would like to know just how efficient it is and how is it constructed.
Seems like a very simple generator to build. I plan to modify it for gas splitting applications. Also wish to compare its output to a generator I am building.

Lone Maverick
01-30-2012, 01:52 PM
Lone Maverick

I am interested in the mighty mite. I would like to know just how efficient it is and how is it constructed.
Seems like a very simple generator to build. I plan to modify it for gas splitting applications. Also wish to compare its output to a generator I am building.

Per my experience with it, I think mighty mite is good for small applications, small size engines where low LPM is needed. The other issue with this kit is its water reservoir... its too small, needs to be refilled about every 700 KMs.

I have to break and reassemble this kit as I think I am keeping more gaps than .82cm, I am keeping around .89 between each plate. This is why I have to pour lot of electrolyte to increase Amps.

Either, I will buy another kit (pre-assembled) or replicate one myself (lot of hassles of finding matching parts like transparent pipe here in Canada).