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View Full Version : HHO raises the octane level???



ranger2.3
07-17-2008, 12:21 PM
I am seeing all the time on this forum about how HHO "raises" the octane level. How could you raise the octane level? Number One:Octane is a chemical substance added into gasoline. Number Two:HHO HAS NO OCTANE IN IT!!!HHO is hydrogen-hydrogen-oxygen NOTHING ELSE!!!


PLEASE, ANY INPUT WOULD BE GRATEFULLY APRECIATED!!!!!!!!

daveczrn
07-17-2008, 12:36 PM
I am seeing all the time on this forum about how HHO "raises" the octane level. How could you raise the octane level? Number One:Octane is a chemical substance added into gasoline. Number Two:HHO HAS NO OCTANE IN IT!!!HHO is hydrogen-hydrogen-oxygen NOTHING ELSE!!!


PLEASE, ANY INPUT WOULD BE GRATEFULLY APRECIATED!!!!!!!!


lets start with the wikipedia definition

The octane rating of a spark ignition engine fuel is the knock resistance (anti-knock rating) compared to a mixture of iso-octane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane, an isomer of octane) and n-heptane. By definition, iso-octane is assigned an octane rating of 100 and heptane is assigned an octane rating of zero. An 87-octane gasoline, for example, possesses the same anti-knock rating of a mixture of 87% (by volume) iso-octane and 13% (by volume) n-heptane. This does not mean, however, that the gasoline actually contains these hydrocarbons in these proportions. It simply means that it has the same autoignition resistance as the described mixture.

so basically the rating isn't truely octane.. just a graph as to where diffrent things fall on it. HHO has a octane rating of somewhere slightly above 50.

geobushono
07-17-2008, 08:46 PM
the diesel owners, some of them turbocharged , don't seem to experience any preignition incorporating hho.
If it lowered the octane it would make the diesel fire too soon especially when the turbo is pumping in the mixture under pressure.
so my guess is, it isn't lowering the octane rating and *might* actually raise it.

cougar gt-e
07-17-2008, 11:32 PM
For gasoline engines you worry about octane rating. Octane as Dave so kindly provided is an indication of the autoignition resistance. That means it is HARDER to self ignite from the heat of compression with higher octane numbers. HHO, is a mixture of hydrogen and that is well known to be extremely flamable. I don't know, but it would make sense that hho would LOWER the octane rating as it makes the combustion occur more completely and more easily when the fuel to air ratio is leaned out. Seems to make sense --> anybody have a clue if it's right or not?

On diesels, you are concerned with something called the cetane rating. It is an indication of the ability to autoignite. The exact opposite of octane rating. For diesel engines, you WANT them to ignite with the heat of compression as there is no spark.

So, while hho may do some great things, it can't both raise octane and raise cetane ratings. A mixuture with high octane would have low cetane and the opposite would also be true. It's gotta be one of the other (right?)

Packer Fan


I did some searching ----> this link is interesting. Not entirely sure what it is telling us.

http://www.schatzlab.org/h2safety.html

It would be nice to find a scientific study of hydrogen content in air/fuel mixtures with the hydrogen in the 0.02% to 0.5% concentration range.

daveczrn
07-18-2008, 12:50 AM
n-octane -10
n-heptane 0
2-methylheptane 23
n-hexane 25
2-methylhexane 44
Hydrogen* >50
1-heptene 60
n-pentane 62
1-pentene 84
n-butanol 87
n-butane 91
t-butanol 97
cyclohexane 97
iso-octane 100
benzene 101
E85 Ethanol 105
Methane 107
Ethane 108
Methanol 113
Toluene 114
Ethanol 116
Xylene 117

daveczrn
07-18-2008, 12:51 AM
i was wrong and needed to adjust my origal post. posted complete results of whati found. above here

kiwibrick
07-18-2008, 07:33 AM
After a little searching there seems to be a lot of testing and data out there that says that using supplemental hydrogen in a gasoline motor considerably increases the knock resistance and increases combustion stability, so in effect it is increasing the octane rating contrary to what one would expect looking at hydrogen's low octane rating of 50

dennis13030
07-18-2008, 08:29 AM
Perhaps it would be better to say that hydrogen or HHO improves the burn characteristics of gasoline. The octane boost thing is misleading.

cougar gt-e
07-18-2008, 08:51 AM
n-octane -10
n-heptane 0
2-methylheptane 23
n-hexane 25
2-methylhexane 44
Hydrogen* >50
1-heptene 60
n-pentane 62
1-pentene 84
n-butanol 87
n-butane 91
t-butanol 97
cyclohexane 97
iso-octane 100
benzene 101
E85 Ethanol 105
Methane 107
Ethane 108
Methanol 113
Toluene 114
Ethanol 116
Xylene 117

Good stuff Daveczrn!

Do you have the cetane number for chemicals too? (Or post a link where you got this info from? ) I'm researching various chemicals used as additives in diesel fuel. Seems the anti-gel, injector cleaners and cetane improvers are about 1000% over priced from what you can buy. I haven't found the cetane info though...

Packer Fan

WJB
07-18-2008, 10:14 AM
Yeah, I'd like to know for sure what HHO does to diesel fuel also. I run an Edge EZ that changes timing on my dodge ram TD. I was looking into propane injection/fumigation and you're not suppose to run it with a timing box. The propane mixed with diesel burns differently and effectively changes the timing itself. Too much timing (advance) could be disastrous.

daveczrn
07-18-2008, 10:25 AM
i got everything from wikipedia. sorry. Not finding anything on the centan number that your looking for.

here is something else i just noticed there as well that helps us understand what Hydrogen does.

*Hydrogen represents a paradox. As a fuel outright, it has low knock resistance[2][3], due to its low ignition energy (primarily due to its low dissociation energy) and extremely high flame speed. However, as a minor blending component (i.e., a bi-fuel vehicle), hydrogen raises overall knock resistance. Flame speed is limited by the rest of the component species; hydrogen may reduce knock by contributing its high thermal conductivity. These traits are highly desirable in rocket engines, but undesirable in four stroke engines.

daveczrn
07-18-2008, 10:31 AM
I think the above statement is only partly true. I think when trying to lean an engine out for better fuel ecconomy the higher knock resistance is greatly desirable.

cougar gt-e
07-18-2008, 11:45 AM
snip

These traits are highly desirable in rocket engines





I gotta get me one of those!

Wonder what sort of miles per they get?

daveczrn
07-18-2008, 12:43 PM
i don't think it would be miles per gallon.. i think it would be gallons per mile.

rmptr
07-18-2008, 06:54 PM
An HHO HOD cell is creating a catalyst that will enhance the burn of gasoline/diesel the engine is running on.

IMO the key words here are catalyst, and enhance.


Until you get into Hydrogen power or Stanley Meyer water power,
you are working with a haphazardly metered influx of a gaseous mixture to the intake tract which improves the characteristics and economy of our commonly sold pump fuels.

It works!
Do it!

It would take a LOT of time at the experimental fabrication bench AND a gazillion dyno runs to determine what the best all around application ratio is for the varying needs in contemporary driving conditions.

Basically, the cost would be prohibitive, both in testing, and fabrication of a suitably controlled and metered application system.

It's the NEXT step that approximates rocket science!
Significant financial grants will be required.

Enjoy the small, inefficient systems that produce improvement and

Be well, John Spartan!

homersimpson30
08-02-2008, 10:09 AM
A co worker told me that hho might cause pre igniton cuz its so flamable, and cause engine damage? Possible??

daveczrn
08-02-2008, 11:09 AM
re read this

*Hydrogen represents a paradox. As a fuel outright, it has low knock resistance[2][3], due to its low ignition energy (primarily due to its low dissociation energy) and extremely high flame speed. However, as a minor blending component (i.e., a bi-fuel vehicle), hydrogen raises overall knock resistance. Flame speed is limited by the rest of the component species; hydrogen may reduce knock by contributing its high thermal conductivity.