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View Full Version : Toyota Corolla with HHO, MPG's went down



volsfan
08-03-2009, 08:17 AM
I'm putting 1 lpm of HHO in to my 2006 Toyota Corolla. I went from 42 mpg to 37 mpg. The car is not running hot, no lights on the dash have come on! Any thoughts?

Thanks,
VolsFan

cabrera
08-03-2009, 08:49 AM
I'm putting 1 lpm of HHO in to my 2006 Toyota Corolla. I went from 42 mpg to 37 mpg. The car is not running hot, no lights on the dash have come on! Any thoughts?

Thanks,
VolsFan

From what I have seen, you need to be able to adjust your MAF. You may also need to add 02 extenders on the o2 sensors. This is the problem in basic terms. Your car has an ECU (computer) with a program in it that says the car must run to these perameters. When introducing HHO the sensors send the info to the ECU saying there is a lean burn condition, add more fuel. The ECU responds and more fuel is added thus negating any MPG increase. Using a MAP/MAF enhancer will help.

volsfan
08-06-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm going to install my O2 extenders tonight!!!

volsfan
08-07-2009, 09:05 AM
I put the top O2 extender in last night. With NO HHO I went from 42 to 45 MPG's!!! 7% inprovement!!! I have more power, I was murging from I81 to I26 going 60 mph I punched it and spun the tires! WOW!! I have to put a heaver wire on my HHO Gen. I use 14 ga and it melted the + lead. I hope to have everything working this weekend.

VolsFan!!!

cabrera
08-07-2009, 07:43 PM
I put the top O2 extender in last night. With NO HHO I went from 42 to 45 MPG's!!! 7% inprovement!!! I have more power, I was murging from I81 to I26 going 60 mph I punched it and spun the tires! WOW!! I have to put a heaver wire on my HHO Gen. I use 14 ga and it melted the + lead. I hope to have everything working this weekend.

VolsFan!!!

I use 6 guage, and I'm thinking of going to a lower guage. You may also consider a PWM to control the voltage to the cell

Marlon
02-09-2010, 04:38 PM
If you really want to get the most mpg possible get a digital EFIE.
If your Toyota has a VVTI engine you should keep the EFIE settings low and DO NOT adjust the MAF.

RustyLugNut
02-10-2010, 06:39 PM
The intricacies of the modern fuel/emissions system is the big stumbling block to the home experimenter. It surprises me that no one has approached this problem by using a relatively simple carbureted vehicle to establish how hho works, and then extrapolating the results to simply injected vehicles, and finally, current state of the art.

cabrera
02-10-2010, 07:45 PM
It surprises me that no one has approached this problem by using a relatively simple carbureted vehicle to establish how hho works, and then extrapolating the results to simply injected vehicles, and finally, current state of the art.

That what I did first. My first HHO setup was in a 1974 VW beetle. Wet cell, bubbler flashback protector & not much else. She went from a consistent 24 MPG to 33 MPG. Cabrurated cars are fairly simple. Attach the HHO to a vacuum port on the manifold below the carb & you're golden.

The ECU on modern cars are the P.I.T.A. that fights you every step of the way. Overcoming the programming to compensate for the HHO is the challenge. HHO works, its an additive, not a solitary fuel....yet :D

RustyLugNut
02-10-2010, 08:38 PM
So, how does it work? What did you find out from your simple experimental setup on the VW?

Those principles are universal for internal combustion engines, so the extrapolation to fuel injected vehicles should be clear.

cabrera
02-10-2010, 10:14 PM
So, how does it work? What did you find out from your simple experimental setup on the VW?

Those principles are universal for internal combustion engines, so the extrapolation to fuel injected vehicles should be clear.

HHO added to the VW had a 2 fold effect:

HHO allows the gasoline to fully burn, thus there are no unburned fuel out of your tailpipe.
Because of the above carbon deposits are reduced for the engine. This sometime skews the results of HHO as a cleaner engine will perform better.


Originally, the VW was getting just over 38MPG, but after a week it dropped to 33 mpg. Once the engine cleaned up it leveled off. The mileage remained constant for the next 6 months. When I removed the unit, the VW did about 26mpg w/o HHO, which is what that car did when new.

These 2 factors remain constant in FI engine, the problem is the ECU in newer cars compensates for the added HHO. It reads it as a lean burn condition since the exhaust gas has a higher concentration of oxygen. To correct this the ECU will dump more fuel int the engine negating any MPG increase. Therefore electronics must be added to compensate for the ECU's inteference.

RustyLugNut
02-11-2010, 03:03 AM
Point one is a general statement and does not indicate the "how" of how HHO improves the combustion.

Point two is true, but you would need in the order of tens of kilograms of carbon in your combustion chamber to effect an improvement of mileage over any significant amount of time, and water (steam) has more to do with the carbon deposits than does the HHO.

Then, you come to the conclusion that your O2 sensor reads more O2 in the exhaust when you add HHO. Which the above tests do NOT prove. Your salient points do not logically support your conclusion.

Restate your conclusion so as to be supported by your research points.

cabrera
02-11-2010, 09:22 AM
Point one is a general statement and does not indicate the "how" of how HHO improves the combustion.

Point two is true, but you would need in the order of tens of kilograms of carbon in your combustion chamber to effect an improvement of mileage over any significant amount of time, and water (steam) has more to do with the carbon deposits than does the HHO.

Then, you come to the conclusion that your O2 sensor reads more O2 in the exhaust when you add HHO. Which the above tests do NOT prove. Your salient points do not logically support your conclusion.

Restate your conclusion so as to be supported by your research points.

Ahh I get it now. You seem to be one of those people who demand scientific proof. Perhaps some of my more versed forum members can give you the specifics of why it does. I only document the results I get. (I don't care how my microwave heats up my coffee, I only noticed that it takes 15 seconds at full power)

That being said, my conclusion on point one was based on an significant reduction in pollution emissions of the VW over a period of 60 days using Maxwell Emissions Test Systems equipment. You are correct on my second conclusion. It will take significant carbon deposits to impede performance. The VW had over 150K miles on the engine and was considerably fouled when the system was installed.

So, now it's your turn to pick up a wrench & start testing. You may be able to break our dependency on foreign oil :D

RustyLugNut
02-11-2010, 09:36 AM
People who populate these forums seem to regurgitate the same errors over and over in an incestuous intellectual circle.

You made some of the same erroneous conclusions.

I use science and engineering principles plus years of experience with wrenches to oscilloscopes.

I have been at this on and off since 1978 as time permitted.

My hydrogen generator does get about 2 orders of magnitude more production than anything mentioned on this forum, but it is not an electrolysis machine. And, I have investor funding to bring it to market at some point.

And I do know how a microwave works.

cabrera
02-11-2010, 10:00 AM
People who populate these forums seem to regurgitate the same errors over and over in an incestuous intellectual circle.

You made some of the same erroneous conclusions.

I use science and engineering principles plus years of experience with wrenches to oscilloscopes.

I have been at this on and off since 1978 as time permitted.

My hydrogen generator does get about 2 orders of magnitude more production than anything mentioned on this forum, but it is not an electrolysis machine. And, I have investor funding to bring it to market at some point.

And I do know how a microwave works.

GREAT, It's good to have someone who is so knowledgeable here on this forum. Since you have over 30 years experience you should be providing guidance.

The fact that you have built a hydrogen generator is of no interest to me. Additionally, the fact that you felt compelled to state your financial status interests me even less.

I did find it of significant interest that you needed to inform us that you knew how a microwave works, I guess your attempt at belittling me somehow raises your level of credibility?

In any case we welcome your contribution and look foward to your product coming to market. I'm sure you will advertise it here.

RustyLugNut
02-11-2010, 11:22 AM
You were the one who asked about my "wrenching" and I gave you a short "business card" introduction as to my credibility and background, as far as can be done on an open internet setting.

And, I was being somewhat facetious about my hydrogen generator . . . it is an industrial unit that will first be used in an industrial setting.

If you feel belittled by a lack of microwave knowledge . . . well, I can't help you. I apologize for my writing style, however.

You were the one posting as though you were knowledgeable in the field of internal combustion theory. Yet, you made some erroneous statements and conclusions. The same ones other "experts" on this and other sites have made.

All that being said . . .

So, let us get back to the task at hand and revisit your VW research, because it provides a baseline example that is uncluttered by modern ECU meddling.

What type of VW was this, and do you happen to know the compression of the engine?

Also, what was the average RPM you drove at along with the volume of HHO you produced?

Did you re-tune the engine after the addition of HHO?

I have also done work on a 2.2l 84 Chrysler K car with a feedback carburetor and TWC. I would like to see any additional information on carburated vehicles before we continue.

Thanks,
Rusty

richard_lyew
02-11-2010, 08:47 PM
a AFC will work on all those cars

bergs23
02-12-2010, 01:23 AM
a AFC will work on all those cars

Richard, do you have any links or websites of places you've bought them?

hanglide4life
02-12-2010, 10:33 AM
check here.

http://www.hhotechcenter.com/resources/NASA_HYDROGEN-GASOLINE.pdf

cabrera
02-12-2010, 10:41 AM
Richard, do you have any links or websites of places you've bought them?

Look in the shopping tab

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=air+flow+controller+afc