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cougar gt-e
07-20-2008, 11:16 PM
Ho Ho Hellow!

I have a test system together and bubbling to clean it out. It's made in the smack's style with 8 SS light switch plates (on sale for $0.89 each). I (ahem) used glued on cork gasket material to set the spacing at 1/8th inch and zip ties to hold it together. Then used SS bolts on the outside plates to wrap a wire on for power. The middle plates are all isolated and checked with an ohm meter as isolated. Sort of an experiment coupled with impatience. A cap full of drain cleaner powder mixed in 1/2 gal of water in an old juice jug. Power from a battery charger 2/10/50 buffered with a old trolling motor battery that won't hold charge.

(Note: don't use epoxy! The drain cleaner seems to dissolve it pretty fast and if floats to the top. Not pretty. So, I will order up some nylon rod fairly quick)

Ok, so I can put the plates into the juice jug and turn on the power. No bubbles at 2, 10 or 50 amp settings. Add the drain cleaner that is listed as NaOH and KOH and it starts to bubble.

Here's my questions.

Only the outside plates seem to have any bubbles. Also the inside plates are not turning color where the outside plates are turning dark. I thought that all the plates would bubble fairly equally. Am I wrong on that or did I make a goof up in the construction?

The liquid foams up pretty bad. Looks like a big mug of beer with a TV head of foam. Nice --> if it's a beer! Not so much for hho production. Any foam solutions or is that a result of the chemical used (draino)?

I set the battery charger at 2 amps and it bubbles pretty good (no measure of volume). BUT - It get's hot. I have a harbor freight 7 dollar IR temp sensor and that shows it at 179F. Actually, I have 2 of them and they are both within a couple tenths of a degree. I thought that it would not be so hot at lower amps. Oh, my fluke blew the internal fuse so I don't have a way to measure current until I get a new one.

Which side does the hydrogen come from, the + or the -? I was thinking to change the design to have 2x the surface area for the hydrogen side as it is producing 2x the gas. Dumb idea or should I be looking for the nobel prize for science in the mail?


Over night at 2 amps the liquid will drop about 2-3". That's not a ton of liquid, probably 12 oz. Is that normal?


I have room to mount a 6" PVC tube. Whats the best way to connect everything up electrically. It's probably obvious to most, but ...best to check!

Packer Fan

stickittoopec
07-20-2008, 11:53 PM
Well it looks like you found what a single cell electrolyzer with more than 2 volt input is good for. A water heater. Here is what is going on. Electricity will always take the shortest path. In your case that would be around the plates to the outside plates. There is nothing to force the current through the plates so there is about 354 watts making heat and 60watts making HHO. If you want all the plates to produce you need them to be isolated so the current has no other path but to go through the plates. For an automotive system a six cell (seven plates) is good. You will drop about 2.3 volts per cell. It will run cooler and make more gas and less steam. I posted to a similar question earlier. http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=465&page=2 I made a pdf file a while back and included it there. On the second page I have a picture looking into a series cell that might give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
Smack style electrolyzers are easy to build but are very inefficient. They generate a lot of heat (steam) which is mistaken for HHO and a little gas.
I hope this helps.

Bigtoyota
07-21-2008, 12:53 AM
Actually, I have a 12 plate version of the Smack's I just built the other day.
All the plates produce gas, and it's staying rather cool at 10 amps. By cool I mean only slightly warm to the touch. It's also putting out at least .5 LPM, but until I build a better measuring device, that's the best I can do for now.

Also, using liquid Drano as your catalyst isn't the best, because it has more ingredients than just straight NaOH. If you're using city tap water, that will cause discolorations on the plates from the chemicals int he city water.

Distilled water and straight NaOH are the best to use, at least use straight NaOH or KOH. I'm running mine on my well water, which has a slight amount of iron in it, but I have no fouling so far.

cougar gt-e
07-21-2008, 09:17 AM
Well it looks like you found what a single cell electrolyzer with more than 2 volt input is good for. A water heater. Here is what is going on. Electricity will always take the shortest path. In your case that would be around the plates to the outside plates. There is nothing to force the current through the plates so there is about 354 watts making heat and 60watts making HHO. If you want all the plates to produce you need them to be isolated so the current has no other path but to go through the plates. For an automotive system a six cell (seven plates) is good. You will drop about 2.3 volts per cell. It will run cooler and make more gas and less steam. I posted to a similar question earlier. http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=465&page=2 I made a pdf file a while back and included it there. On the second page I have a picture looking into a series cell that might give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
Smack style electrolyzers are easy to build but are very inefficient. They generate a lot of heat (steam) which is mistaken for HHO and a little gas.
I hope this helps.

Ok, I'll buy that. To "salvage" my massive investment (snicker) would I mount it such that the cells are isolated by mounting them tight against a flat wall? Into a slot? If so, does it need to be water tight, or can some leakage occur and be ok?

Also, I was running it again last night with 2 amps. Should be nicely seasoned. The fluid was again hot. But, isn't 2 amps * 12v = 24 watts? Or do I have that confused with something else?

I like your design. In it, if the liquid is over the top of the plates, does that defeat the design?

Thanks for the input!

Packer Fan
(Brett, just shaddap and play, eh?)



On edit --> Update the web site. At least add the cell design!

daveczrn
07-21-2008, 10:16 AM
if liquid goes over the plates you will loose some electricity as it will push its way above the plates. On the other hand if you have a good amount of room above the plate it will give the bubbles a chance to get out of the way of the new bubbles that are forming on the plates.

stickittoopec
07-21-2008, 08:33 PM
Bigtoyota
You can get a flow meter like this at most welding supply shops or online at McMaster-Carr. You will need to get the 0.4 to 5 SCFH meter, that will put you in the 0.188 to 2.36 liter per minute range. http://www.mcmaster.com/
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/114/gfx/small/5079kc1s.gif Their part number is 5079K24

Cougar
Yes the plates need to be pretty snug(slots are good), and no holes in the plates. The current will pass through any leak it can find. A little seepage won't hurt anything but no major leaks.
Yes the water needs to be below the top of the plates. If the water is above the plates it will operate like a 2 plate electrolyzer.
How long are your run times before yours gets hot? I'm surprised 2 amps made a lot of heat. Your calculation of 24 watts is close. Most battery chargers will put out 13.5 to 14 volts and some times higher. The formula is amps x volts = watts.
By the way I see a lot of mention of neutral plates in these single cell (Smack Cells) units. They do nothing to help make hydrogen in this configuration. The current simply goes around the neutral plates.
The best setup for production in the smack design is +-+-+- .
I started with this design when I first started 3 years ago. I gave up when the flow meter clogged up with electrolyte (lye). The steam was carrying the electrolyte out and through the bubbler. The bubbler was being saturated with the electrolyte and eventually heating up and passing the steam or vapor with the electrolyte. This is not good for our aluminum parts. That is when I found the plans on the net for the water torch (Browns Gas torch) at Eagle Research. I've scaled it down and have tried to simplify the design to be used in an automotive environment. It is definitely more efficient at producing gas. The challenge is finding the right spacing and size for the plates to optimize gas production . That is what I'm working on now.
The reason it's not on my site is, its not finished yet. This is a work in progress.

daveczrn
Yes as mentioned above the electrolyte needs to be below the top of the plates. The area above the plates serve 2 purposes. It allows a place for the gas to collect and allows the water to slosh over the plates while driving (braking / accelerating) to keep the cells filled. I use a pulse width modulator to control amperage and to facilitate the production of Browns Gas.

cougar gt-e
07-21-2008, 10:35 PM
Stickit,

Ok, that sounds about right. It does however put a slow down on adding a unit! I mean, why add a bad one? I don't know how long it takes to heat up. I do know that at 2 amps it would be at 170-175F overnight with lots of foam.

Taking your input, I think I have a decent design in mind, but have to buy some SS and some separator plates.
How much spacing does a true series system use?
Still the 1/8th inch plate spacing or should it be higher? I was thinking 1/4".

Also, does the fluid get used up faster ? I'm assuming that it may as there is less volume of it, just the amount between the plates.

Thanks for taking the time to help us out!

Packer Fan

Stratous
07-21-2008, 10:39 PM
Many people say 1/8 spacing is the most productive. I normally use 1/16" because I use less electrolyte to achieve the same amp draw. The further the plate spacing, the more electrolyte you will need to achieve a preset amp draw. Increased electrolye decreases plate life. I am sure the difference in 1/8 vs 1/16 is very minimal as far as electrolyte is concerned.

cougar gt-e
07-21-2008, 10:43 PM
Many people say 1/8 spacing is the most productive. I normally use 1/16" because I use less electrolyte to achieve the same amp draw. The further the plate spacing, the more electrolyte you will need to achieve a preset amp draw. Increased electrolye decreases plate life. I am sure the difference in 1/8 vs 1/16 is very minimal as far as electrolyte is concerned.

Thanks,

But a bit ??? confused. The electrolyte, is that the total liquid stuff between the plates or the stuff added to make it conductive? I've seen it both ways and am not sure which you mean.

thanks!

stickittoopec
07-22-2008, 10:21 PM
Cougar
Yes 1/8 is good and is recommended by the Brown's Gas people. The first series cell I built had 3/8” spacing and seven cells (8 plates) but only produced a little less than 1 liter a minute. I couldn't get more than 15 amps through it. It had to be the spacing. I should have been able to load it up.
The electrolyte is what is added to the distilled water. I use Roebic Crystal Drain Opener, you can find it at Lowes. It's 100% Sodium Hydroxide (lye). It is caustic but is good for gas production, and low foaming if the other materials are compatible. Here is a web site to help determine what is compatible.
http://www.flotronicpumps.co.uk/templates/page_01.php?cfp=page:0004S

Stratus
With that close a spacing what kind of production are you getting? It's easy to limit your amperage with a pulse width modulator. You can get them already assembled for about $30.00. Put an amp meter in line with the output and adjust your amp output from inside the cab. This works for any type of cell.
If you plan to max out the output you will need to add bigger heat sinks or add a small muffin fan (like used in computers).
http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/MXA066