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HHOhoper
07-23-2008, 11:36 AM
Hello All!

I'm not only new to this forum, but also to the HHO concept in it's entirety. A friend of mine introduced it to me and he is also new to this as well.

From the limited research I've done, I've seen that there are some people out there who have made some amazing improvements to their MPG.

Well I've completed a small generator and have added it to my 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. It's been on for about two weeks and I haven't really noticed much of an improvment at all.

I DO know that my cell is primitive and does not put out a huge amount of gas. As I'm working out the bugs, I've come to a big question. As I have it now, the HHO feed hose goes in after my air box, right before my MAF. I have a supercharged engine and I figured that the blower would have somewhat of a suction to pull the HHO out of my generator. At the very least, the pressure of the expanding gas in the generator would push it's way into my intake and it'd be a done deal. I've also heard that people have coupled their feed hoses into an air vacuum line on the manifold so that you have the full suction of the engine pulling the HHO into your engine. From what I've seen, this option necessitates a method to prevent flashback such as check valves and/or a bubbler, etc.

My question to all of you is: Will I notice a considerable difference putting my feed hose in the manifold vacuum lines, or is it fine how it is just being feed just after the air box, before the MAF? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Stratous
07-23-2008, 01:01 PM
We who have been here for awhile have learned that most peoples first attempt is not usually very good. Leaks are your worst enemey. Hydrogen is smaller than air or water. Meaning, that Hydrogen will leak through holes that water cant fit through. You injection should be after the MAF. You can run your hose into the air intake, past the filter and allow it to terminate just past the maf

HHOhoper
07-23-2008, 04:46 PM
Here are some pictures of my cell and where I have it going on the intake.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/ATT19380.jpg

The black hose going into the large chrome pipe is the feeder tube going into my intake right before the MAF.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/ATT19393.jpg

justaguy
07-23-2008, 10:34 PM
Did you test your generator for LPM before installing ? You need to make sure its putting out enough lpm or it won,t do any good. You need 1 lpm or at least close to that. If its not, try adding more electrolite until the amps get up to 15 or more .

bigapple
07-23-2008, 11:20 PM
Did you test your generator for LPM before installing ? You need to make sure its putting out enough lpm or it won,t do any good. You need 1 lpm or at least close to that. If its not, try adding more electrolite until the amps get up to 15 or more .

just be careful that the unit doesnt overheat... adding too much electrolyte can overdraw the current and ruin ur setup... make sure u use thick enough wires to be able to withstand the amperage as well

SmoothieV
07-24-2008, 08:20 AM
Did you put that generator in your trunk? No issues running the tubes underneath the car???

Smith03Jetta
07-24-2008, 09:35 AM
I see that you are probably using baking soda based on the color of the water in your viewing hole. I would switch to Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide immediately if I were you. If you have finished bench testing and are ready to move to your car already then you will need a cleaner system, less maintenance and more output with less amp draw. Using a better electrolyte will help give you those results. Switching to Roebic drain cleaner (Heavy Duty Crystal Drain Opener 100% sodium hydroxide) will save you a lot of time and headache. Your blower will not produce a significant vacuum as to effect the output of the cylinder. The only way it will begin to produce a significant vacuum on the cylinder is if you get a dirty air filter element. You may, however, notice that your water evaporates more quickly because of the supercharger suction.

HHOhoper
07-24-2008, 10:54 AM
Wow! I can tell that I'm going to learn VOLUMES from you all; thank you so much for your responses!

justaguy,

I didn't learn how to test LPM until just yesterday afternoon, so I ran out and got some bottles so that I can. As soon as I'm have it put together and tested, I will post the results. Out of curiousity (this is a question for everyone), what would you say is the "average" LPM for one cell that people are achieving? That would give me something to shoot for as I modify the different variables.

bigapple,

I ran this for an hour on a benchtest and the max temperature was just under 100 degrees. Right now I have 14 guage wire and a 10 amp fuse. My friend who helped me build this model has the same one in his car and he said it draws no more than 1.5 amps. From what I've read, I'm guessing this this is probably very weak.

SmoothieV,

No, this is sitting at the feet of the front passenger. The feeder hose goes through the firewall and plugs right into the cell. My plan is to put it behind the center console. I was going to put the cell under my hood, but I've heard that the more heat you have, the less gas you produce. With engine temps of 180-195, I figured I'd benefit from having the cell away from that intense heat. If someone can shed some understanding for me on if I have a misconception, that would be great!

Smith03Jetta,

Bingo! I'm using two teaspoons of baking soda per gallon of distilled water. This cell maybe contains about a quart of electrolyte.
Here's my question for you about your suggestions. I read that baking soda and distilled water is the "safest" of all the options, although not the most efficient. I've heard that using any kind of sodium produces chlorine gas which is extremely toxic. In the event that my cell sprung a leak, and is in the interior of my vehicle, I would be VERY leary about putting that in there.
My second question to you is do the biproducts of your electrolyte have any adverse affect on the engine parts? I know that GM did a very poor job in selecting gasket material for my particular vehicle. Does Sodium Hydroxide (or any other sodium mixture) pose any threat to weaker components like plastic, rubber, iron, that it may come in contact with?

Also, based on your comments about the supercharger, would you say that I'm okay with my feeder hose where it is?:confused:

Thank you everyone for the continued responses and education! I can't wait to get the bugs worked out and really enjoy the benefits of this!:cool:

scottyhho
07-24-2008, 12:22 PM
I wrapped my generator with a heat blanket and then some electrical tape to hold it in place. That should help with the engine heat. Personally, i would find SOMEWHERE to put this in your engine compartment. If i had a leak or something, i would much rather have it in my engine instead of my interior...;)

HHOhoper
07-24-2008, 05:24 PM
My amp tester should've arrived today, so I'll test my cell tonight and post the results tomorrow. :o

EltonBrandd
07-24-2008, 05:36 PM
"Bingo! I'm using two teaspoons of baking soda per gallon of distilled water. This cell maybe contains about a quart of electrolyte.
Here's my question for you about your suggestions. I read that baking soda and distilled water is the "safest" of all the options, although not the most efficient. I've heard that using any kind of sodium produces chlorine gas which is extremely toxic. In the event that my cell sprung a leak, and is in the interior of my vehicle, I would be VERY leary about putting that in there.
My second question to you is do the biproducts of your electrolyte have any adverse affect on the engine parts? I know that GM did a very poor job in selecting gasket material for my particular vehicle. Does Sodium Hydroxide (or any other sodium mixture) pose any threat to weaker components like plastic, rubber, iron, that it may come in contact with?"


Potassium hydroxide wont produce chlorine gas, but sodium chloride (table salt) will produce chlorine gas. There are tons of places to stick the cell under your hood, in your fender liners in front of the wheels. If you use a bubbler it will filter the gas that passes through it. Potassium hydroxide is caustic, that is why people say "It isn't safe". Especially the w4gas folks.

HHOhoper
07-24-2008, 05:57 PM
Potassium hydroxide wont produce chlorine gas, but sodium chloride (table salt) will produce chlorine gas. There are tons of places to stick the cell under your hood, in your fender liners in front of the wheels. If you use a bubbler it will filter the gas that passes through it. Potassium hydroxide is caustic, that is why people say "It isn't safe". Especially the w4gas folks.


So what would be the electrolyte of choice? Potassium Hydroxide or Sodium Chloride?
What are the best sources for both?

So if Potassium Hydroxide is caustic, has anyone ever experienced any corrosion problems with anything?

EltonBrandd
07-24-2008, 06:36 PM
So what would be the electrolyte of choice? Potassium Hydroxide or Sodium Chloride?
What are the best sources for both?

So if Potassium Hydroxide is caustic, has anyone ever experienced any corrosion problems with anything?

The two options are potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. Sodium chloride is the dangerous one that we never use. I have spilled electrolyte all over the place and never had any burning of my skin or any other noticeable damage. All the info you'll find says flush immediately with water, caution! etc.....
Just be sensible when you use it, don't get it in your eyes, mouth, etc...
And use safety glasses in case of small pop followed by the acidic electrolyte.

bigapple
07-24-2008, 08:19 PM
My amp tester should've arrived today, so I'll test my cell tonight and post the results tomorrow. :o

i believe key amperage draw is between 15-25 amps... some people run 30 amps but make sure u have thick enough wiring to draw that much power... if ur close to target amperage but not quite there, little by little, add more of ur sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide because they are quite strong with just a little bit... if ur using baking soda, ull need alot, itll rust pretty quick (since carbonate is one carbon and 3 oxygens) and it will get hot no matter what... good luck

HHOhoper
07-25-2008, 11:29 AM
Last night my amp tester came and I quickly pulled my generator out of my car to do some bench tests. It was drawing 1.2 amps!! :rolleyes: I also finished my LPM tester and it was putting out 3 LPM!!!!! Just kidding. It was putting out .033 LPM! So I feel a lot better knowing why I wasn't getting any gains - my generator wasn't doing anything! So I started adding baking soda and got it up to 8 amps. It was bubbling like crazy, which I was excited to see! At that draw, it was putting out 200 mlPM.
My best friend was over helping me work on it and he asked what would happen if he held a lighter up to the spout where the hydrogen was coming out! My brother had built a generator very similar to mine and he tried to light the gas and nothing happened. So knowing what the risks were I said, why not, let's give it a shot. So we took it outside and he held the lighter up to the spout. BOOOM!!!!!!! It exploded into smitherines!!! It was loud too!! Electrolyte and glass shards went everywhere!! YES, glass is DANGEROUS!! What an explosion though! :D What's a science project without a few explosions along the way?? ;) Although, if someone had that thing go off unintentionally, that could really injure someone!

Also, I made some headway with the whole manifold vs. air box problem. Last night I went driving around and was monitoring the vacuum on the hose where it is on the intake. With that supercharger on there, it actually did create quite a suction! I was very surprised that it was as strong as it was. The more I pressed on the gas, the greater the suction was (for obvious reasons). With manifold pressure, the suction would go away with increased throttle. Now that I've seen that I kind of get the best of both worlds, I think I'll keep it where it is unless anyone has a suggestion I haven't thought of.

I know that my design is primitive at best. Now that I'm beginning to understand how the whole thing works, I'm thinking I want to go to a plate design next. Here are the questions that I still have and if anyone could take a stab at them that would be great:

1. What is the average LPM that people are acheiving?

2. How are you wiring up your cells? Are you going straight to the battery or are you splicing in somewhere?

3. What are the best and/or cheapest sources for sodium hydroxide and/or potassium hydroxide and which of the two do you prefer?

4. Has anyone tried a tube design like in all the Stan Meyer videos?

5. What guage wire do you use for 15, 20, 25, 30 amp draws?

6. Has anyone experienced any alternator problems with drawing that much power? I believe most alternators put out anywhere from 90 to 110 amps! I would think that drawing a whole fourth of that juice would put some serious wear on an alternator!

Again, I appreciate all the education and help!

EltonBrandd
07-25-2008, 03:21 PM
Nice work with the jar! I got lucky when my jar blew up, only the lid cracked. I wired my unit from a key on circuit to a relay, this way it only runs with ignition on. I will eventually tap in to the fuel pump circuit as the signal line to my relay to make it fool proof.

HHOhoper
07-25-2008, 03:27 PM
Nice work with the jar! I got lucky when my jar blew up, only the lid cracked. I wired my unit from a key on circuit to a relay, this way it only runs with ignition on. I will eventually tap in to the fuel pump circuit as the signal line to my relay to make it fool proof.

Can you explain how that works? I'm VERY inexperienced with electrical systems and how they work. Currently I have my power wire spliced into my radio's power wire. That's the only power wire I could find that is on when the car is on. I blew a fuse this morning and I know it's because the radio and the generator can't both run on a measley 10 amp fuse! I know I could go straight to the battery and have a switch, but I'd be very worried about forgetting to shut the thing off one time. If I could have a 'signal' wire to the radio and have the actual power coming from the battery, that would be perfect, but I have no clue how to do that! :confused:

EltonBrandd
07-25-2008, 05:08 PM
Can you explain how that works? I'm VERY inexperienced with electrical systems and how they work. Currently I have my power wire spliced into my radio's power wire. That's the only power wire I could find that is on when the car is on. I blew a fuse this morning and I know it's because the radio and the generator can't both run on a measley 10 amp fuse! I know I could go straight to the battery and have a switch, but I'd be very worried about forgetting to shut the thing off one time. If I could have a 'signal' wire to the radio and have the actual power coming from the battery, that would be perfect, but I have no clue how to do that! :confused:

The purpose of the relay is to provide switched high current to a consumer without having to run wiring all over the car. so what you would need to do is, first get a switched signal (key on signal). Then supply a ground for the other side of the switched signal. This will make the relay open and shut. actually it will close and open. Then the other 2 contacts on the relay will be 1. from the positive side of the battery,2. and the last contact will be to the consumer (your cell in this case). Then ground your cell to a good chassis ground close by.
http://www.eleinmec.com/article.asp?24
This may help explain it better.

HHOhoper
07-25-2008, 06:08 PM
So would I do it like this?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/asdfasdfasdf.jpg

EltonBrandd
07-25-2008, 07:30 PM
So would I do it like this?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/asdfasdfasdf.jpg

Thats pretty much it. Dont overcomplicate it, its easier than it looks

Dewayne
07-25-2008, 08:44 PM
It's better to put the relay off the fuel pump circuit (if you have an electric fuel pump.)
If the engine is turned off or the engine dies the power is cut off to the fuel pump.




http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/n0ssy/HHOPowerconnections2.jpg

HHOhoper
07-28-2008, 10:40 AM
I got it all wired up over the weekend and it worked great! I can't believe I didn't learn this earlier! I can think of so many electrical applications I've done in the past where this would've made things so much easier!

AmosC
07-28-2008, 05:47 PM
To peovent the glass jar from blowing up use a uased press blanket from a prant shop it will blow the top off befor it blows the glass apart.
amosc

dennis13030
07-28-2008, 08:29 PM
It's better to put the relay off the fuel pump circuit (if you have an electric fuel pump.)
If the engine is turned off or the engine dies the power is cut off to the fuel pump.




http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/n0ssy/GeneratorWiring.jpg

I agree. The diagram needs a couple small corrections though.

The first 25 amp fuse should be between the relay and the battery. Also, there is no need for the second fuse because it's all in series.

There is also no need for the power switch.

HHOhoper
07-29-2008, 10:35 AM
My father called me last night and I helped him wire up his Suburban over the phone. It worked great for him as well. I really think this relay thing is the way to go!

Jimbo61
07-29-2008, 11:46 AM
So we took it outside and he held the lighter up to the spout. BOOOM!!!!!!! It exploded into smitherines!!! It was loud too!! Electrolyte and glass shards went everywhere!! YES, glass is DANGEROUS!! What an explosion though!

Only one word to say about doing that kind of test....HINDENBURG...:eek:

HHOhoper
07-29-2008, 11:47 AM
So we took it outside and he held the lighter up to the spout. BOOOM!!!!!!! It exploded into smitherines!!! It was loud too!! Electrolyte and glass shards went everywhere!! YES, glass is DANGEROUS!! What an explosion though!

Only one word to say about doing that kind of test....HINDENBURG...:eek:

:D Exactly. Ha, ha, ha!

RMForbes
08-01-2008, 03:39 PM
To prevent wires from melting and posible fire install the fuse as close to the battery as posible.

Dewayne
08-10-2008, 06:09 PM
I have updated my drawing, see above