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Jaxom
07-25-2008, 01:53 PM
I've been on this forum for about 2 weeks now and I have yet to see anyone using a cell built like mine, so I figured it was time to throw it out there for comments/suggestions/etc. Here you go, tell me what you think.

Pics are not an option right this minute...my digicam has issues. I can try to explain my cell design but it's a little unorthodox. It uses 24 SS switch covers, cut in half long ways to make 48 plates that are approx. 5"x1.5" in size. The plates are arranged in two layers of 24. I've come to realize that I have far more surface area in this cell than I can effectively make use of....the plates will handle much more current than heat buildup will allow. You could probably use 12 covers (24 electrodes) and do just as well with a smaller cell. The plates are laid out in a radial pattern, which is probably a big surprise to some of you guys. There is a piece of 3/4" PVC for a support core run straight down the center, with the plates radiating out from it like spokes on a wheel. The plates lay with the long cut edge against the core. 3/4" PVC unions with slots in the ends hold the plates in place, the unions are secured to the core with regular PVC cement. Friction holds the plates in the slots during assembly, once the cell is in it's housing there is simply not enough clearance for them to fall out of place.

The top outer corners of the plates have 1/8" holes drilled in them, and short SS bolts and nuts are used to hold the supply wiring against the plates. The electrical configuration uses 3+, 3-, and 18n plates per layer. The config is essentially 6 +nnn- cells in parallel, per layer. Both sides of all the electrodes are productive surfaces (720 square inches in my 2-layer cell,) which is why I chose to try this layout, and the whole assembly slides into a 4" PVC tube 15" long with about 2" to spare. A single layer cell this style would be around 10" and provide 360sq.in. of productive surface area.

My electrolyte is NaOH (lye crystals) at about 7.5mL/gal.

Edit: To clarify on the electrical layout, the + and - plates are shared, so the layout is
+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+, with the first and last + being two sides of the same plate. It's hard to illustrate a circular layout in text format.

spob
07-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Sounds interesting. What is the gas production like? How many amps are you drawing?

Jaxom
07-25-2008, 02:25 PM
The first test run showed 2.5lpm at 12.5v and 18A after a 15-minute warmup. The measurement was taken using an airflow gauge (which I don't entirely trust the accuracy of) so don't quote me on it just yet. I still need to verify the gauge's accuracy using the "water displacement" method. Regardless of the gauge, production LOOKS very good, with a 1/4" output tube bubbling too fast to count the bubbles.

HomeGrown
07-25-2008, 08:08 PM
Extremely interesting design concept! How did you index the unions to cut the 12 slots, and what did you use to cut it? I gotta believe that was a real chore cutting those plate covers in half.

Assuming a 4" o.d. of your plate assembly:

12.50 (circumference) divided by 24 plates = pretty close to a 1/2" plate gap towards the outer perimiter of the cell, while having the more traditional .06 gap @ the hub. You may have a lot of surface area, but I bet less than 30% of it is being utilized for gas production, unless you're running a really potent electrolyte. Have you watched it running open-top to see how far out the plates you're producing bubbles?

Omega
07-25-2008, 11:03 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words. I hope you can post a picture of your masterpiece. It sounds really wild.

BAD MEDICINE
07-26-2008, 02:03 PM
I would be very interested in a picture too :cool:

Jaxom
07-26-2008, 02:47 PM
Homegrown - you're dead on about the plate spacing. It's right at 1/8" at the core and a hair under 1/2" at the outer edges. I've run the cell both open and closed, and the production pattern is a little odd. The 6 charged plates start producing immediately on startup, even all the way to the outer edges. After a half second or so, the N plates start to produce also, and within 2-3 seconds the water is so clouded with bubbles that I can't actually see the top edge of the plates (which are approx. 3/4" submerged.) I'd really like to get it into a clear-sided container so I can get a better look at the production....it's currently in a PVC housing so I literally have a tunnel-view of the end of the cell.

As far as slotting the unions goes, I just made marks 15 degrees apart, then cut the notches 1/2" deep with a hacksaw blade. It worked out nicely as the hacksaw blade was just a hair thinner than the plates, which makes for a nice tight friction fit during assembly. Since it was done more-or-less by eyeball the spacing is not perfectly even, but it's close enough for my purposes. I forgot to mention in the first post that I also have an "alignment ring" in between the two layers of the cell. It's just a 3" PVC union trimmed a little in length and slotted so that it engages both layers of plates. It's sole purpose is to keep the plates directly radial (i.e. equally spaced along the circumference.)

I'll try to get my hands on a camera that actually works this weekend so I can get some pics up.

HomeGrown
07-26-2008, 09:16 PM
Very sweet setup! Did you loiter in the plumbing & electrical departments for like an hour coming up with that concept? :D LOL, that's what I would have done!

Working on these cells makes you look at every aisle in every store differently... suddenly everything is evaluated as "cell-worthy". :D

dennyk159
07-26-2008, 11:16 PM
Very sweet setup! Did you loiter in the plumbing & electrical departments for like an hour coming up with that concept? :D LOL, that's what I would have done!

Working on these cells makes you look at every aisle in every store differently... suddenly everything is evaluated as "cell-worthy". :D

LOL... spent about an hour and a half just last night at Lowe's trying to come up with materials to make a small generator that would fit in what's left of the space under my hood...

Jaxom
07-28-2008, 06:31 PM
OK so I got a few pics over the weekend but the board tells me they're too big to upload. Does anybody have webspace available to host them or am I gonna have to take some lower-res pics?

The concept just sort of struck me out of the blue one day when I was doing some research on YouTube. I was looking at a Joe cell and thinking of all the wasted surface area on the outside of the outermost tube and it occured to me that a radial design would use both sides of all the plates. Then it was just a matter of working out the dimensions to make it easy to build, and finding a way to keep the plates stable. I did spend a lot of time in Home Depot, but it was mainly because their fasteners aren't organized well and it took forever to find SS nuts and bolts. I actually put together a 12-plate cell as a first prototype but quickly realized the plates were too far apart. I also found out the hard way that salt is corrosive, and baking soda is better but still not good. Then I stumbled across this forum. :D

Stratous
07-28-2008, 07:22 PM
use your picture tool program to resize them, or email them to me and I will do it for you.

kajreklaw
07-29-2008, 11:00 AM
OK so I got a few pics over the weekend but the board tells me they're too big to upload. Does anybody have webspace available to host them or am I gonna have to take some lower-res pics?




jaxom, try using MS PAINT(if you have no other way of resizing) to adjust the size of your picture files. if all else fails send them to me and i'll photoshop them for you.

shortstack
07-29-2008, 08:26 PM
i use tinypic.com, work great, plus its free and you dont have to sign up like others

Meat
07-29-2008, 09:12 PM
Irfanview is another good free program for editing photos

GreenStar
07-30-2008, 12:13 AM
Hey HHO fans!

I have been working with HHO directly and just found this forum!

I feel like I am at home! LOL

I will put together some volumes of photos to chronicle my experiences to date, in automotive and drinking water applications, but also my current research to convert home furnace and water heating to HHO.

Anywho... If anyone needs help hosting pics, just email them to me and i will put together a hosting for all... maybe we can also work with admin to raise the storage and bandwidth of this forum.

Heres to making the utility company pay you!

Cheers!

Tkyn10
07-30-2008, 07:47 AM
:)

Working on these cells makes you look at every aisle in every store differently... suddenly everything is evaluated as "cell-worthy". :D[/QUOTE]

LOL since I got interested in HHO this is exactly what goes on now when I go shoping.

Smith03Jetta
07-30-2008, 08:25 AM
You can go to tucows.com or download.com and search for Photo Resizer and find a freeware program that will do batch photo resizing and not much else. That's what I use but I can't remember the name of the program since it's on my computer at home and I'm at work. At work, I use GIMP. It's got a funny name but it is an excellent freeware photo editor that rivals Photoshop or Paintshop Pro.

timetowinarace
07-30-2008, 09:16 AM
It sounds like you've got the best small open bath design I've heard of. I'll be interested in hearing about the production being verified. I don't doubt it though, from the picture in my head of your design it seems to me you've found a great way to get a lot of surface area in a small space AND it seems to effectively stop waste current. Actually, it might be utilizing what would normally be waste current.

Nice work.

BoyntonStu
07-30-2008, 01:09 PM
I've been on this forum for about 2 weeks now and I have yet to see anyone using a cell built like mine, so I figured it was time to throw it out there for comments/suggestions/etc. Here you go, tell me what you think.

Pics are not an option right this minute...my digicam has issues. I can try to explain my cell design but it's a little unorthodox. It uses 24 SS switch covers, cut in half long ways to make 48 plates that are approx. 5"x1.5" in size. The plates are arranged in two layers of 24. I've come to realize that I have far more surface area in this cell than I can effectively make use of....the plates will handle much more current than heat buildup will allow. You could probably use 12 covers (24 electrodes) and do just as well with a smaller cell. The plates are laid out in a radial pattern, which is probably a big surprise to some of you guys. There is a piece of 3/4" PVC for a support core run straight down the center, with the plates radiating out from it like spokes on a wheel. The plates lay with the long cut edge against the core. 3/4" PVC unions with slots in the ends hold the plates in place, the unions are secured to the core with regular PVC cement. Friction holds the plates in the slots during assembly, once the cell is in it's housing there is simply not enough clearance for them to fall out of place.

The top outer corners of the plates have 1/8" holes drilled in them, and short SS bolts and nuts are used to hold the supply wiring against the plates. The electrical configuration uses 3+, 3-, and 18n plates per layer. The config is essentially 6 +nnn- cells in parallel, per layer. Both sides of all the electrodes are productive surfaces (720 square inches in my 2-layer cell,) which is why I chose to try this layout, and the whole assembly slides into a 4" PVC tube 15" long with about 2" to spare. A single layer cell this style would be around 10" and provide 360sq.in. of productive surface area.

My electrolyte is NaOH (lye crystals) at about 7.5mL/gal.



Edit: To clarify on the electrical layout, the + and - plates are shared, so the layout is
+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+, with the first and last + being two sides of the same plate. It's hard to illustrate a circular layout in text format.


For square inch calculation, you just count the area of the SMALLEST area of ONE side of a plate in each cell.

BoyntonStu

Jaxom
07-30-2008, 01:19 PM
Here are 3 decent shots. I had to resize them WAAAAAY down to fit within the 97.7kB limit.

GreenStar
07-30-2008, 01:54 PM
Here are 3 decent shots. I had to resize them WAAAAAY down to fit within the 97.7kB limit.
awesome design! A picture is worth a thousand words indeed... although you described it very well! Just as i pictured it in my head...

So... the electrodes... they are cut from switch plates? Where do you get the plates?

Thanks!

Jaxom
07-30-2008, 03:49 PM
I get my switch covers from Home Depot. There's a whole other thread devoted to them here. (http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=417)

computerclinic
07-30-2008, 07:34 PM
Are you using copper wire to connect?

JojoJaro
08-06-2008, 01:37 AM
The first test run showed 2.5lpm at 12.5v and 18A after a 15-minute warmup. The measurement was taken using an airflow gauge (which I don't entirely trust the accuracy of) so don't quote me on it just yet.

What does you gut feeling tell you the LPM should be?

Even if your reading is off by 20%, I think that is still awesome production for 18A and its size. Did you cross-hatch the plates?

How much for you to build me one? Maybe sell me what you've got and go build a better one. I'm ready to install one in my Duramax.

Jaxom
08-06-2008, 01:52 PM
I was under the impression the wires were SS when I built the cell, but after running it I have found that the cut ends of the wire are corroding, which leads me to believe they are copper wires with some type of coating or plating. It's the same heat-resistant wire used on O2 sensors.

Further testing is showing a little less output than that first run. It's in the range of 2.0lpm consistently at 12.5v and 18-20A. It's not ready to go in a vehicle yet though...it's getting pretty warm at this production level (up to around 160F) and the PVC softens a little after running for a while. After a 1-hour test run last weekend the terminals and output nipple were noticably loose in the plastic, enough so that the HHO began to leak out around the fitting and the flow reading dropped some.

ICEMAN.KCMO
08-06-2008, 02:01 PM
are you running a flooded cell?

Jaxom
08-06-2008, 02:50 PM
That depends on how you define "flooded cell." The water level covers the electrodes but there's still an airspace inside the cell, and the electrolyte mix does not circulate through the cell. It may in the future, I'm thinking about a circulation pump and remote reservoir to help control the temperature, but at this time it's just the cell sitting in water.

JojoJaro
08-06-2008, 08:37 PM
How much space is left at the plate edge before it hits the housing?

If I wanted the whole assembly to fit the housing snugly, what width should I use. I read that your plate width is 1.5". Will 1.6" width cause it to fit the housing snugly so that it seals the outer edge from stray currents?

djerickd
08-06-2008, 11:18 PM
Wow thats genius level engineering man!! thats awesome.

How is production? (or did I miss that?)

Jaxom
08-07-2008, 09:40 AM
I have less than 1/8" clearance between the edges of the plates and the inside diameter of the PVC housing. It would take some trial & error to get a closer fit. All I did was cut Home Depot switch covers in half longway, flatten them out, and then design the support core to be the correct size for it all to fit closely. The core is 3/4" PVC in my design.

The 1.5" plate width is an approximation.

DJ....not to be rude, but if you would scroll up I JUST gave production numbers.

djerickd
08-07-2008, 10:33 AM
DJ....not to be rude, but if you would scroll up I JUST gave production numbers.

ahh i just saw it, sorry!

agentc0re
08-08-2008, 12:47 AM
I just started to build one myself, using the same material. I was wondering what you used to attach the wire to the plates? Spot welding maybe?

Jaxom
08-08-2008, 08:54 AM
Nuts and bolts.

TBill
08-08-2008, 02:13 PM
I am VERY new here, so I do not propose to be an expert, but maybe:
If you could use SS and bend it in a radial configuration
(1) it would increase the physical size of the plate (a straight plate only has room between the "core PVC" and the outer PVC. By curving it, you can use a wider plate.
(2) increase the amount of surface area that you can maintain at "optimal" (or close) distance between plates?

THUS you might be able to use less electrolyte and decrease heat?


Also, if you increased the neutrals maybe less heat too? +nnnn- or even +nnnnn- ?


Just thoughts.

daveczrn
08-08-2008, 04:19 PM
here are some larger pictures for your eyes delight... more pictures to come when jaxom gets a chance...


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/c46a8c46.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/28cd413d.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/e5f908cd.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/7fd0ca69.jpg

Jaxom
08-08-2008, 04:21 PM
Curving the plates to increase surface area is a good thought, but a little beyond my capabilities. I've also seen where guys cross-hatch the plates with sandpaper because a rougher surface effectively has more contact area than a smooth surface. That's something I wish I had known about when I built the cell, but at this point I don't feel like the design is limited by SA as much as by temperature.

I had thought about changing the electrical to use more N plates and fewer charged plates. Since the cell is built with 24 plates per layer, I could concievably use 1,2,3,5,7,or 11 N plates per circuit. I chose to go with 3 for a somewhat odd reason that may even be completely unfounded. I've been calling it "angle of seperation" because I don't know of a better term. Basically, 98% of HHO builders mount their plates in parallel. Since my cell uses 24 radial plates, each one is mounted at a 15* angle to the plates on either side of it. This is where the production distribution question comes into play. Having the plates closer toward the center means they will produce more at the center than at the perimeter. I have very little doubt of this although I haven't been able to prove it yet.

Using 3 N plates per circuit means that the charged plates are at 60* angles to each other. Increasing to 5 N plates would mean the charged plates would be at 90* angles. I don't have any solid proof, just a feeling, but it seems to me that the larger the seperation angle is between the charged plates, the more problem the cell will have with uneven production. Since current follows the path of least resistance, a larger seperation angle will cause the current loading on the plate to be more skewed toward the center of the cell where the plates are closest. Therefore I went with what I felt was the best compromise. I even considered using ALL charged plates, no N's, and cutting the electrolyte strength to reduce the seperation angle and see how it would affect things.

I haven't had time to do much more experimenting lately, my wife has been diagnosed with cervical cancer and is going under the knife Monday morning. It'll probably be at least 6 weeks before I have free time to play with this again. I'll be too busy taking care of her and trying (in vain) to keep our 3 kids in line.

BigTruck
08-08-2008, 05:44 PM
Awesome design. This means that I will have to rethink plate spacing. Thats a lot of seperation for that production. I would really like to see it work in a clear container where we can see the production distribution pattern.

Good job Jaxom and prayers for the wife.

daveczrn
08-08-2008, 06:28 PM
pictures that i would like to see.
1) what is holding the plate spacing.
2) the center tube
3) just pictures that are alittle more clear.


picture taking tips...
when taking a picture of something close up.. use macro if you camera has it. it's sometimes shown as a flower.
make sure the object you are taking a picture of is clear and the camera is not focusing on something in the background.

dennis13030
08-08-2008, 06:41 PM
here are some larger pictures for your eyes delight... more pictures to come when jaxom gets a chance...


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/c46a8c46.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/28cd413d.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/e5f908cd.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/7fd0ca69.jpg

Do you have production and power numbers from this design yet? If so, what are they?

Jaxom
08-08-2008, 06:50 PM
3) just pictures that are alittle more clear.

You can see why I'm a tech and not a photographer. Thanks for the tips.


Dennis: It pushes a hair over 2lpm at 12.5v and 20A running on the bench. She gets a little warm though....

Cyr
08-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Here is something to keep in consideration for your heat problem.

When setting up a generator using 12 volts, you want to make the electrical current traveling through the water to be around 1.5 to 2 volts per cell to keep the production and get rid of the heat. For example, if you only had 2 plates, and you hooked the wires up to them, you would have 12 volts traveling through that cell. This will make the water get extremely HOT, since there's a lot of wasted energy floating in the water. If you install 5 neutral plates between the positive and negative plates, you now have around 2 volts per cell (the voltage splits for every plate it has to jump to get to the other end). The energy is no longer being wasted, so the water stays cool. Now, if it is installed in the car, you will most likely be using around 14 volts (alternator). In that case, you'd want an extra neutral plate between the positive and negative plates to make up for the extra 2 volts.

To check the voltage on your circular design, take a volt meter, and touch the leads from one plate to the plate next to it. That will tell you how much voltage each cell has.

The voltage shouldn't change from the inside to the outside of your cell, but the amperage will. This is why it bubbles better on the inside than the outside, because it is a closer gap (path of least resistance). It will still use the outer part of the cell, but it will be slower to respond.

Jaxom
08-10-2008, 11:56 PM
Cyr...thanks for the explanation but you're preaching to the choir. I'm not trying to be rude but I work with electrical systems every day. I know what I'm doing.

hhotek...I had thoughts about anything over 2 volts per gap being pointless too, and for that reason I tried my cell at 6 volts tonight. It's set up with 3 N's per circuit (essentially 6 sets of +NNN- in parallel) so a 6v source provides 1.5v across each gap. Production dropped to ~1/3 what it puts out at 12.5v (amperage also dropped significantly.)

I got some more pics tonight and sent them to Dave for hosting (sizing them down makes it hard to make out details.) Closer shots of the core tube and plate supports are there. It's hard to get good pictures of the supports without taking the whole thing apart, and I'm not going to do that until I've done some more testing. I eventually plan to tear it down and crosshatch all the plates to see if it really does help, so I can get detailed pics of the construction then.

I also ran in it a clear container tonight to get a good look at the production pattern. I got some surprising results. Dave has the pics, whenever he gets them online I intend to start a whole new thread on that subject.

daveczrn
08-11-2008, 12:29 AM
WOW... very nice pictures.. here are the cell closeups.. I'll get you the others soon.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/90dbd0f3.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/c1447878.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/6813a988.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/6eb0036d.jpg

daveczrn
08-11-2008, 12:30 AM
damn 4 picture post limit

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn120/daveczrn/886bf6b7.jpg

daveczrn
08-11-2008, 01:00 AM
jaxom.. check your PM's.

as well. How did you cut the slots in the tube? well placed hacksaw or did you set it up and cut it more profesional like?

Sfair74
08-11-2008, 04:23 PM
I believe he mentioned that he has just eyed it up good and used a hack saw. He said it's not perfectly spaced but from the pics it is darn close.

Jaxom
08-15-2008, 06:02 PM
I lightly clamped the union in a vise to hold it steady and took my time with a hacksaw.

If I was producing these in bulk I'd try to get my hands on a bandsaw and build a jig to make the cuts faster, easier, and more accurate.

sp1r0
08-15-2008, 09:39 PM
Not impressed, unless you have them spinning...

c02cutter
08-15-2008, 11:25 PM
You could make is mass produce with an indexing chuck mounted to a slide on a band saw. Just use the degrees marked on the chuck and make the cuts at every 15° use a stop on both the chuck and the slide. Though the chuck is a bit pricey, though not really bad, it can be done on a small scale this way. Have you thought about doing this also in a manner where you line the inner part of the tube with a stainless sleeve as a positive, and then make all the vanes in the center negatives? Just a suggestion to try if your playing.

Another thing that I see is using wire in between the clusters, I can cut you actual parts to connect that are not putting dissimilar material in the caustic solution. Give me a dimension and hole or screw size and I will do it for you. I have been looking at this for a bit and like the concept of it.


Also to sp1r0, the craftsmanship involved to produce what you see is actually really impressive. If not impressed, show us what you can do. This man spent a pile of time engineering what he did.

Jaxom
08-18-2008, 12:05 PM
An indexing chuck on a slide is a good thought if the design goes that far. I had in mind a simple jig with marks at 15* intervals, but the chuck would be faster and more accurate. Good call too on the interconnects...I had thought about cutting SS strips 5/16" wide to replace the wires (and slightly up the surface area) but haven't gone to the time/effort yet. I'm still thinking about going to a single 24-plate array instead of two to help control heat and reduce the overall size of the cell.


Sp1r0: I don't see how putting the cell into rotation would do any good, and in fact I can think of a couple of ways it would be counterproductive. Explain your reasoning, or show me something better, before you knock my design.

Jaxom
08-18-2008, 06:51 PM
OK so I finally got some pics of it running in a clear container (http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=8988&posted=1#post8988) for those who wonder about the production pattern.

Thanks for hosting them Dave.

Meat
08-19-2008, 03:34 AM
The above link doesn't work for me. Tried both Firefox and Explorer.

Jaxom
08-19-2008, 09:45 AM
Works fine for me with IE6. Anybody else having issues?

smartHHO
08-19-2008, 09:53 AM
Works fine for me with IE6. Anybody else having issues?


Worked for me. Posted comment on that forum too. Way cool design.

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 10:02 AM
My apologies for being so rude. I just don't get why the spacing between the plates are so far apart.

daveczrn
08-19-2008, 11:47 AM
My apologies for being so rude. I just don't get why the spacing between the plates are so far apart.

at the center the spacing is not far apart. Because it's a raidial design the plate spacing gets wider the further from the center you are...

at the center it's only 1/8" spacing.

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 12:17 PM
.125" is too far apart. Needs to be closer to .030 region.

volomike
08-19-2008, 09:02 PM
I guess it's drawing a lot of amps. What happens when you run this through a PWM?

daveczrn
08-21-2008, 09:28 AM
.125" is too far apart. Needs to be closer to .030 region.

why do you say that? having a wider plate spacing does a few things for you that are benificial.
1) cooling, you don't get as hot as quick or not at all. Just having the extra fluid in there helps with cooling.
2)More room for bubbles, To close of spacing cause's too much saturation of bubbles and it ends up reducing production.

theres more but i just woke up so it will take me a while to think of them

dave

Jaxom
08-21-2008, 11:09 AM
.125" is too far apart. Needs to be closer to .030 region.

I agree that a closer spacing will make the electrolysis reaction itself more efficient, (since the ions in the water won't have to travel as far before they reach an electrode and are converted to bubbles,) but at the same time, spacing them too close will cause problems removing the HHO from the water (as Dave pointed out.) I went with what I felt would be the best compromise between spacing and ease of construction.


Volomike: I haven't run this cell with a PWM yet. All my testing has been with a "brute force" power supply scheme.

sm0kin
08-21-2008, 10:53 PM
i dont remember where but i saw someone somewhere say meyers tried to build a capacitor styled cell by increasing spacing. may have been one of the reds on hhohuntsville.com not sure tho. I increased my spacing to 1/8" with good results

jjb2888
09-01-2008, 02:14 PM
You can see why I'm a tech and not a photographer. Thanks for the tips.


Dennis: It pushes a hair over 2lpm at 12.5v and 20A running on the bench. She gets a little warm though....

An easy cooling system would be to continue your 3/4" pipe out the ends and circulate water or antifreeze through to a tranny cooler or back to the radiator. Drill two holes in each end with two couplings or bushings into the holes. Filing the lip out to slide a continuous pipe through would be best sealing with pvc glue. Built in cooling system.

Jaxom
09-01-2008, 02:48 PM
That's an interesting idea...I just worry that the PVC core will be too insulative to conduct heat into the cooling fluid very well. I'm probably going to end up using a recirculation pump to run the electrolyte through a SS coil in front of the radiator, or under the vehicle.

Sgt_Yaris
09-02-2008, 08:00 AM
That's an interesting idea...I just worry that the PVC core will be too insulative to conduct heat into the cooling fluid very well. I'm probably going to end up using a recirculation pump to run the electrolyte through a SS coil in front of the radiator, or under the vehicle.

Would you rely on convection to circulate the fluid? Don't think it would work very well without a pump.... Using a pump, you think the corrosive environment eat the pump parts up?

I thought of the same thing. Perhaps using a thinner walled container and wrapping a copper coil around the exterior to dissipate the heat.

jjb2888
09-02-2008, 08:44 AM
That's an interesting idea...I just worry that the PVC core will be too insulative to conduct heat into the cooling fluid very well. I'm probably going to end up using a recirculation pump to run the electrolyte through a SS coil in front of the radiator, or under the vehicle.

True. It could insulate too well, but try pushing the electrolyte through holes through that tube and then allowing gas and electrolyte to circulate out into a reservoir and separating that way this will also cool the electrolyte. Use a tee type setup to connect discharge line to reservoir water will flow down into the tank and the gas will flow up into the line too engine.

Jaxom
09-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Would you rely on convection to circulate the fluid? Don't think it would work very well without a pump.... Using a pump, you think the corrosive environment eat the pump parts up?

I will not rely on convection for this system. I'm probably mounting my genny under the vehicle, with an underhood bubbler doubling as a reservoir. The hose routing will be a little twisty, and that will hinder convection flow because of the friction through the tubing. The bubbler may at times be hotter then the genny (due to engine heat being retained underhood) so that would kill convection also. I plan to use a circulation pump drawing from the bottom of the bubbler, pumping through the cooler and then into the generator. The output tube from the genny will carry the HHO (still mixed in the electrolyte) to an inlet port on the side of the bubbler. The HHO can then bubble out and the electrolyte will be recirculated through the cooler and genny.

As far as the environment goes, it's just a matter of finding the right pump. Most inline fuel pumps use SS impellers, and many are now almost entirely made of plastic. I'll just have to track one down that produces lots of flow and not too much pressure. It also crossed my mind to use a bilge pump off a Sea-Doo. They're 12v high-flow pumps, and they're rated for seawater exposure. I figure if they can take being immersed in saltwater they should be able to handle the electrolyte. Not sure if they'll handle the heat though.....

TBill
09-25-2008, 03:07 PM
Bump to the top.

Jaxom - I was hoping to find out how your test are coming from this design?

Jaxom
09-25-2008, 06:15 PM
Honestly I haven't done much with it lately. I just finished building a fairly unique type of PWM (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=917) for it and need to modify the cell for the controller to work the way I want. I'll also be upgrading the non-SS jumpers that are currently in the cell. I have the genny housing and bubbler mounted up and plumbed, but I haven't found a good source for the 3/8" SS tubing I need for the cooler, and I haven't settled on a circulation pump yet. I'm also very concerned about the issues Mr. Smith has run into (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1426) right now. Money has been short lately so it's hard to make any real progress.

Don't fret, the concept isn't dead and I'm still working on it. I'll post up when I have updates.

h2ocommuter
10-18-2008, 12:13 AM
Here are 3 decent shots. I had to resize them WAAAAAY down to fit within the 97.7kB limit.

Wow that is interesting totally, I have come across a couple of thoughts you may be able to use. I really like your design and I think if you would Isolate the electric curent. By a method I have found works in my new design. it looks like it may work for you also.

I see your tube is rather close to your plate awray well, What I did was to wrap true gum ruber at the ends of my plates; and because there was not much more extra space there I found that puting spacers virtually between the plates on the outside of the ruber, a. (forcing a tight seal between the inside container wall the spacer and the outside of the plate awray makes a nice leakproof seal and it breaks down nicely too), b.( stretching the ruber to a tight fit) and the housing It will seal the electricty from leaking and that changes the electricle attitude nicely. and as suggested by Bob Boyce not covering the tops of the plates with water or not letting the bubbles flow over the tops of the plates also greatly enhances the conductivity of the cell.
I also concure hear too.

Tremorfalcon
10-21-2008, 02:28 PM
I read through all this thread and I must say I am extremely impressed. Using the calculator found here http://www.watervan.co.uk/tools.php
and your numbers of 12.5volts, 20 amps, and 2.0lpm it calculated a MMW of 8.00. I must say, I was stunned for a second when that result came up.

I plan on building a generator exactly like this as soon as possible. Running 3lpm at 30amps on my 1.5L engine should make a world of difference :) . Have you ever tried wrapping a bicycle tire tube around the outsides of the plates to help stop voltage jump? I'm not very educated on voltage jump but I wrapped one of my experimental generators in electrical tape and it seemed to help production a bit.

8MMW is awesome though so I'm not complaining.