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mangyhyena
07-27-2008, 11:36 PM
I was looking at chemical reactions to produce hydrogen on the net. I had read an experiment performed by a member here before I looked this up. In the experiment here I saw that a member used aluminum foil in his electrolyzer unit and produced a massive amount of what he believed to be HHO. Then I looked up a method of producing pure hydrogen. This method uses pellets made of a combination of aluminum and gallium submersed in water to produce pure hydrogen. Here is the way it works. Aluminum will separate oxygen from hydrogen in water. What stops this from happening is a thin film that forms over the aluminum, caused by oxidation, the instant aluminum is submersed in water. Gallium stops this film from forming. Without this film coating aluminum in water, the aluminum absorbs the oxygen in the water, which breaks the hydrogen loose. The hydrogen can then be used to run an engine or hydrogen cell.

Now, back to the experiment here. What if the electrolyzer in his unit produced only a little bit of HHO while the aluminum produced the bulk of the gas, which I believe may have been pure hydrogen, not HHO? What if, when he put electricity through the aluminum foil, he broke that film and allowed the aluminum to react with the water to produce pure hydrogen?

If I'm right about this then an almost unlimited amount of hydrogen could be produced with very little input of energy. The input energy would be used ONLY to break this thin film on the aluminum, not to break loose the hydrogen from the oxygen. It would then be the aluminum absorbing oxygen from the water that produced the hydrogen as a byproduct for use in an ICE engine, not electrolysis.

The way to test this and prove it wrong so I can move on is to put a piece of aluminum in water and hit it with electricity. If no hydrogen forms then I'm wrong and I can get this out of my head. If hydrogen does form then I don't know what I'll do. Freak out? LOL.

It got me to thinking about Stan Meyer. What if he was using aluminum pipes instead of the stainless steel pipes like he claimed? What if he was hitting the aluminum pipes with just enough electricity to break the film so the aluminum could react with the water and make hydrogen? After all, did you read anywhere that anyone confirmed that those pipes were indeed stainless steel and not aluminum? Would you be able to tell the difference between stainless steel pipes and aluminum pipes if they were sitting in water and you couldn't hold them in your hands? And remember also that his "electrolyzer" produced no heat. Perhaps it produced no heat because breaking that film around aluminum requires no where near as much electricity as electrolyzing water.

OK, so I've absolutely got to be wrong about this, right? Please, please prove me wrong and post about it here. The sooner I get this foolishness out of my head the better. Thanks.

HYDROTEKPRO
07-28-2008, 03:52 AM
I also hope I'm wrong with my answer. Because if I'm wrong, then we know a little shortcut to make more HHO.

First, you never get something for nothing. Simply dropping a piece of aluminum in water won't do anything, except wet the previously dry aluminum. However, if the aluminum is submersed in a corrosive alkali solution such as the KOH or NaOH electrolytes most of use, then that's when the fizzies start!:D Add electricity and you get even more. But the aluminum begins to get eaten by the corrosive electrolyte, and eventually will dissolve away.

If you use plain tap water or distilled water with NO electrolyte chemical, and only use electricity, well then it's our guesses and imagination until one of us does the test and posts honest results.

mangyhyena
07-28-2008, 07:51 AM
Honestly, I don't expect this to work. But if there is even a chance it will, then it's worth looking into. If anything, we'll know yet another way NOT to produce hydrogen. lol.

Basically, what I'm wondering is if electricity, pulsed or otherwise, can burn through that film that prevents aluminum from interacting with water and producing hydrogen. With the aluminum/gallium pellets, gallium is what breaks that film. I just want to know if a small amount of electricity will accomplish the same thing. Perhaps using stainless steel mesh over aluminum would burn that film off. Or maybe just shocking the aluminum without anything else would do it. Or perhaps I'm totally wrong and gallium is the only material that will prevent that film from forming.

Stan Meyer used no corrosive substance, just tap water. He obscured the blueprints of his invention to keep others from reproducing his results. Or, someone else obscured his blueprints. Either way, we can't reproduce his work today. I'm wondering if he used the chemical reaction between aluminum and water rather than electrolyzing his water. It would look like electrolysis, but would in fact be him breaking that film on the aluminum with electricity. That is, if I'm right and aluminum can be made to react with water using electricity rather than gallium.

IMHO, it's worth finding out. Please post here as soon as someone tries this so we can either advance this line of thought or bury it and get onto something else with more potential.

Good luck.

snapper1d
07-28-2008, 11:57 PM
Well I just tried the aluminum.It doesnt put off as much heat but it also doesnt put off as much gas.I had it hooked strait to a 12v battery.It works until the aluminum get a heavy thick oxide coating.It didnt look as if it was eating away at the aluminum but it looked as if it was coated over with the baking soda.I did have to add more baking soda than I would with stainless.With just tap water it hardly does anything at all.Of course you know what happens if you use sodium hydroxide,the aluminum would last about 10 minutes.

daveczrn
07-29-2008, 12:53 AM
aluminum and NaOH

5 g coarse aluminum powder is combined with approx. 20 ml of 40 percent sodium hydroxide solution in a test tube. The tube is placed in a tall 2 liter glass beaker.
Photos 3, 4: Shortly thereafter, a violent reaction causing gas production begins. An oxyhydrogen gas probe returns positive.
Under normal circumstances, aluminum does not react with water, as an impermeable protective layer composed of aluminum hydroxide either forms within seconds or is already in place. With the addition of sodium hydroxide, the formation of a protective layer is prevented. With the production of aluminates (Al(OH)4-), the amphoteric (capable of acting as either an acid or a base) aluminum hydroxide Al(OH)3 goes in solution:


2 Al + 6 H2O > 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2

Al(OH)3 + NaOH > Na+ + [Al(OH)4]-
A layer of aluminum oxide previously formed by passive corrosion is dissolved by the addition of sodium hydroxide. For this reason, the reaction takes place at the beginning relatively slowly:


Al2O3 + 2 NaOH + 3 H2O > 2 Na+ + 2 [Al(OH)4]-


it doesn;t look like it produces H2 or O2

snapper1d
07-29-2008, 12:51 PM
I didnt check to see if that gas would burn.I had thought about it but there was so very little that if it had been hho it wasnt worth working with anyway.

HHOhoper
07-29-2008, 01:29 PM
Well I just tried the aluminum.It doesnt put off as much heat but it also doesnt put off as much gas.I had it hooked strait to a 12v battery.It works until the aluminum get a heavy thick oxide coating.It didnt look as if it was eating away at the aluminum but it looked as if it was coated over with the baking soda.I did have to add more baking soda than I would with stainless.With just tap water it hardly does anything at all.Of course you know what happens if you use sodium hydroxide,the aluminum would last about 10 minutes.

How long did it take for the oxide coating to form? Also, what about the Gallium? I also wonder if the water temp plays a factor as a variable. Do you know what the amp draw was when you had it hooked to the 12V battery? I'd be interested to hear all of that.

snapper1d
07-29-2008, 02:04 PM
I had one of those water4gas plexiglass forms you wrap your wire on just laying around.I used some 1/16" alum rods and wrapped them on the plexiglass just like you do the wire.I dont have my amp meter yet so I really dont know what amps it was pulling.The coating bulit up on the wire rodd in about 10 minutes to where the production of that gas had almost quit.I was using a pint and a half wide mouth jar so the w4g unit just did a close fit.I changed the polarity of the rods and then it started putting out gas again until that electrode built up with the oxide.From what I saw it was not worth fooling with at all.

mangyhyena
07-30-2008, 08:48 AM
Well, that is one possibility eliminated. Thank you for taking the time to test that. It's a downer that it didn't work, but at least I know. Much appreciated.

I really thought that electrocuting that film off aluminum might have been how Stan had managed to produce hydrogen with only 1 amp. Twas a great theory till it was tested and found lacking. Back to the drawing board.

Thank you all again for taking the time and effort to test that. Because of your efforts we know for sure now.

Smith03Jetta
07-30-2008, 09:36 AM
Keep in mind the relative size of Hydrogen molecules compared to Oxygen molecules. If the Aluminum is absorbing most or all of the Oxygen as suggested then you should expect a lot smaller volume of GAS production than with SS electrodes alone. You will still have a significant amount of usable Hydrogen and no or very little Oxygen. The lower gas production volume is no indication that the system is not producing a usable volume of pure hydrogen gas. I think more testing is warranted. Don't worry about volume, put together a working model with a sizable mass of aluminum and try it on an engine and see if you can get MPG results.

candyman55
07-30-2008, 10:31 PM
Guys,
I tried the aluminum thing yesterday. I had a piece of 3" Alum. tube on the shelf so I thought I would check things out for myself. Since I have been working on tube cells i also had several pieces of ss in diffrent sizes.

I hooked the 3" tube up neg. and inserted a piece of 2-1/2" stainless inside as positive electrode. Catalyst -- I used rain water mixed with a fair amount of vinegar. Started producing instantly, comparable to ss tubes, If the gas it was producing was mostly hydrogen. I would have to say this combination will definitely out produce ss.

someone else give it a try, and verify this.

stickittoopec
07-30-2008, 11:41 PM
I'm probably the one referenced here. I have been testing this and posted about this. My site is http://www.stickittoopec.com/index.html. It does not make HHO, it makes very pure hydrogen This is not new it's been around for a while. The guy I got it from liked the output of his unit but could not control it. That is what I figured out. The two small pieces of coiled up aluminum is what was used to make the video. If you want to do it with electrolysis the aluminum must be the cathode. They use this in fuel cells all the time. If you use it for the anode it doesn't work I don't know why but I've tried it and it did nothing when used as the anode. When I used it as the cathode it made quite a bit of gas and when I took the current away it still was producing gas on its own.
The chemical reaction I did made a lot of heat that is where the oxygen is consumed. They NaOH attacks the oxide layer on the aluminum the oxygen and the aluminum react to make alumina the two hydrogen atoms float away and the cycle continues until the aluminum is consumed or you use up the water. What I did was make a chamber to allow the pressure to push the electrolyte away from the aluminum to stop the reaction and keep the pressure under control. You put a gas solenoid in the gas line, when the solenoid is off the pressure builds up and pushes the liquid into the next chamber and maintains the gas under pressure until the solenoid is open. I use PVC to test my pressure chamber idea but it got too hot and I had to put it in a bucket to cool it down so as not to melt the PVC. The chamber worked. It maintained about 15 psi when I plug the end.
This reaction makes steam also, so a condensing chamber would have to be part of the design as well. This is not for a small car it would most likely be for a truck or other large vehicle or stationary engine like a generator.

mangyhyena
07-31-2008, 08:43 AM
Are you saying that there is something to this aluminum thing? Man, have I got questions for you. lol. Thanks for jumping in here, BTW. I sent you a PM to alert you about this thread and I'm glad you showed up.

Ok, first off, what, exactly, is breaking this film on the aluminum? Is it the electricity or the solution in your water?

Second, would you please explain again, in layman's terms, exactly how the aluminum is breaking the hydrogen loose? (I had just read about aluminum breaking hydrogen loose a day before I posted and I don't think I got enough info on how it works to reasonably understand it.)

Third, in terms of what size engine a unit like yours is capable of running, how much are you pushing out of your hydrogen generator? Could your unit run an 8KW generator and come out with a net gain in power? Because I would be very interested in that as I plan to be off the grid within a year from now and I would love to give this a try.

Fourth, how long can the reaction be sustained and with how much aluminum, judging from what you've been working with? (Not looking for exact numbers. Just what you believe from your work so far.)

Fifth, once the aluminum gets going with the chemical reaction, will the film try to reform or is it good to go until the aluminum or water level give out? In other words, could you cut the electricity being put into it once it's going or does it need to stay on?

Sixth, thanks again. Anything you can do to educate me about this is greatly appreciated. I'm heading to your website now.

computerclinic
07-31-2008, 03:34 PM
So there is hydrogen generation via chemical reaction, and then additional HHO generation when electricity is applied?

This sounds like a really cool experiment. How can you stop the chemical reaction on demand?

stickittoopec
08-01-2008, 12:01 AM
So there is hydrogen generation via chemical reaction, and then additional HHO generation when electricity is applied?
This sounds like a really cool experiment. How can you stop the chemical reaction on demand?
There is no electricity in this and it makes pure hydrogen.
Controlling it is the easy part just let the pressure do all the work. You have to be careful to build the expansion chamber the right size. If you get it too small the pressure could be to high for the material or solenoid you use to cut it off with. I did a test with PVC (not the stuff to build a working device with) and it worked great. I could pinch off the hose and it would go to about 15 psi and stop. Adjust the water level and get more or less pressure. You can see it in action here. http://www.stickittoopec.com/gas.html


Are you saying that there is something to this aluminum thing? Man, have I got questions for you.
Yes The video shows everything.



Ok, first off, what, exactly, is breaking this film on the aluminum? Is it the electricity or the solution in your water? Second, would you please explain again, in layman's terms, exactly how the aluminum is breaking the hydrogen loose? (I had just read about aluminum breaking hydrogen loose a day before I posted and I don't think I got enough info on how it works to reasonably understand it.)

First there is no electricity in this reaction. There is a way to use it but you don't need it in this reaction.
Aluminum wants to be alumina, but the oxide keeps that from happening. The NaOH reacts with the oxide and allows the oxygen and aluminum to react. Out of this reaction you get alumina and heat (lots of heat) and the 2 hydrogen atoms are freed up and float off. (Simple answer there is more to it)



Third, in terms of what size engine a unit like yours is capable of running, how much are you pushing out of your hydrogen generator? Could your unit run an 8KW generator and come out with a net gain in power? Because I would be very interested in that as I plan to be off the grid within a year from now and I would love to give this a try. Fourth, how long can the reaction be sustained and with how much aluminum, judging from what you've been working with? (Not looking for exact numbers. Just what you believe from your work so far.)
I designed this to boost the fuel like the electric units. This would be for a pickup truck .It would take a very large unit to try and run a large engine. More testing needs to be done to see how long it can last. I got about 15 minutes out of the two small coils of aluminum flashing I used. Other metals will work also. Sulfuric acid can be used for a reaction also. Sulfuric acid will react with some metals and make hydrogen. By the way this makes very pure hydrogen. The electric units make 2 H2 O2 so 1/3 of what they make is oxygen. This almost makes pure hydrogen the oxygen is consumed in the reaction. I need stainless steel pipe (not cheap) to build a working model to handle the heat. Then I can continue the test.



Fourth, how long can the reaction be sustained and with how much aluminum, judging from what you've been working with? (Not looking for exact numbers. Just what you believe from your work so far.)
Don't know but the bigger the piece the longer it will last. This thing gets very hot so it makes steam also. There will have to be a condenser to convert the steam back to water or you will boil the water out of the cell. This is in the very early stages. I still have things to work out. But this can be made to work.

Smith03Jetta
08-01-2008, 01:20 PM
This conversation is getting more and more exciting. Thanks for sharing. I've got lots of aluminum laying around and a penchant for experimenting with new stuff.

I am thinking about experimenting with this. I would see my experiment going like this.

I have two containers. One has a lid on it that can hold pressure. I will call this container my reaction chamber. Inside this reaction chamber is an elevated grating holding aluminum soda cans or billet or whatever. It doesn't really matter the source of the aluminum or how much is put into the container. I seal the container. On the sealed lid is an output tube. The output tube has a pressure regulator on it that is adjustable. I set the pressure regulator at "n" psi.

The second container will be called my overflow chamber. It is larger than the reaction chamber. The two containers are connected on the bottom by a tube. There is a solenoid valve on this connector tube that is normally in the open position. The valve is in the closed position at this time.. I will partially fill the overflow chamber with Water/NaOH mixture. Fill amount will be 1.5 times the volume of the reaction chamber for pressure reasons... (Don't ask me to explain)

I open the solenoid valve and allow the H2O/NaOH mixture to flow into the reaction chamber. The liquid level will rise until it either reaches the aluminum or the valve on the gas tube causes the pressure to rise and stops it from rising any higher.

I will open the gas solenoid on the gas line and adjust the pressure regulator until the liquid level reaches the aluminum. This should start the hydrogen reaction. As the reaction continues the gas volume inside the reaction chamber will increase. Two things can happen. Either the regulator valve will let some of the hydrogen gas out or the liquid will be forced out the bottom of the reaction chamber. The regulator can be adjusted so a desired amount of hydrogen is piped out of the reaction chamber.

Hydrogen will push out through the regulated tube. At the same time fluid will be pushed out the bottom tube. This free movement will self regulate the amount of gas being created. The water will rise and touch the aluminum and then drop again as the gas pressure increases. It is all controlled by the pressure regulator. An second solenoid valve on the gas line will be used to turn the reactor on and off. It is normally in the closed position unless hydrogen is requested.

The pressure regulator is the key to this whole process. To refill the reactor, just close the bottom fluid control valve and open a port on the top of the reaction chamber. Drop in some aluminum scrap and close the port again.

Unknowns are:

How long will the water/NaOH mixture last before needing to be changed out.
How do you treat the waste water? Can the aluminum oxide/sludge/derivative be recycled/reused?
Ratio of Aluminum/Water used to amount of Hydrogen produced.
Ratio of Water to NaOH.
What to build the reaction chamber and overflow chamber from?
How to cool the unit.

stickittoopec
08-01-2008, 11:19 PM
Smith
Watch out for the soda cans. They have a coating on them that gums up the works. I'm going to melt the aluminum and use a sand mold in a star shape (a long bar that is grooved on the sides) to increase surface contact. Put several of these in the reaction chamber and there will be lots of gas when it gets going. The aluminum in the soda cans is soft and makes gas quick but the coating makes a mess.
If the expansion chamber is air tight you won't need a solenoid between the reaction chamber and the expansion chamber. If you size it right the pressure will regulate the reaction. Then you have less parts to break and less places to leak. The one I made keeps about 15 to 20 psi when the gas hose is blocked off and then quits reacting until I let some gas out. When first experimenting just be sure to have a plan if the pressure gets away from you. This thing can make pressure fast and lots of heat. If you watch the video you will see how much gas it makes with just a couple small pieces of aluminum flashing coiled up.
The byproduct is alumina and can be saved and when you get enough, the aluminum companies might be interested in it. It is pure alumina that they won't have to mine or clean and process as much as the raw material. It will take you a while to make that much.
Answer to some of the unknowns, based on my test.




Unknowns are:
How long will the water/NaOH mixture last before needing to be changed out..
If the aluminum is clean, all you will have to add is water and aluminum. The lye is not consumed.



How do you treat the waste water? Can the aluminum oxide/sludge/derivative be recycled/reused?.
If clean aluminum is used no sludge just alumina.



Ratio of Aluminum/Water used to amount of Hydrogen produced..
How much room do you have in your reactor? I haven't done enough test to establish quantity yet.


Ratio of Water to NaOH.
I saturated the mix with NaOH.


What to build the reaction chamber and overflow chamber from?
This is important I believe it should be metal, Copper or 304 or 316 stainless steel will work. But don't use cast iron or brass as they will react.



How to cool the unit.
If the unit is made out of metal it won't matter but the gas will need cooling to condense the steam, and any lye that may be carried out with the steam and reclaim them. I have a few ideas that I'm working on.

mangyhyena
08-02-2008, 07:05 PM
I've seen lawnmower engines run off HHO produced in electrolyzers on U-Tube.

What I'm wondering is if one of these units could run a 5HP generator. It shouldn't take all that much hydrogen compared to attempting to run a larger engine, like a vehicle's engine. If we want to get people interested in these hydrogen generators all we would need to do is run a small 5HP generator off of one and show electrical appliances plugged in and running on U-Tube. People would get the idea pretty quick, I think.


BTW, is it possible to burn that film off using electricity sans the acid? Just wondering.

candyman55 did an experiment using an aluminum pipe in his electrolyzer. What was happening in his unit? Was he making HHO or hydrogen or both? Does vinegar eat away at the film on aluminum? Why was he getting better production with an aluminum pipe?

stickittoopec
08-02-2008, 11:53 PM
I've seen lawnmower engines run off HHO produced in electrolyzers on U-Tube.
What I'm wondering is if one of these units could run a 5HP generator. It shouldn't take all that much hydrogen compared to attempting to run a larger engine, like a vehicle's engine. If we want to get people interested in these hydrogen generators all we would need to do is run a small 5HP generator off of one and show electrical appliances plugged in and running on U-Tube. People would get the idea pretty quick, I think.

BTW, is it possible to burn that film off using electricity sans the acid? Just wondering.

I haven't seen a video on Youtube with a lawn mower running on HHO that I would believe, except the ones that usually end up blowing the top off the bubbler. The reason is, the newer small engines with electronic ignition have a waste spark that causes a back fire with hydrogen. Also when running on straight hydrogen you have to move the timing closer to top dead center. I don't know if you can adjust the timing on these engines. Roy Mc Alister (President of the American Hydrogen Association) has a video on hydrogen boosting and running on straight hydrogen and there is good information in his book.
“The Philosopher Mechanic” You can find them here.
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/H2DVD001_detail_page.htm
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/978-1-60322-044-6_detail_page.htm



candyman55 did an experiment using an aluminum pipe in his electrolyzer. What was happening in his unit? Was he making HHO or hydrogen or both? Does vinegar eat away at the film on aluminum? Why was he getting better production with an aluminum pipe?
I actually tried that also. I'll look and see if I still have the video of it somewhere. I used a stainless wall plate as the anode and a piece of aluminum conduit as the cathode. I think the electrolyte was baking soda. It made quite a bit of gas. I was out side and it started raining so I unhooked everything and took all the electrical stuff inside, when I came back for the electrolyzer it was still making gas, not as much but it was going by itself. The reaction here is the same only current is being used to break through the oxide layer. The oxygen in the water reacts with the aluminum to make alumina and that frees up the 2 hydrogen atoms. What surprised me was the reaction kept going ( although not as strong) after the current was removed.

mangyhyena
08-03-2008, 06:35 PM
"I actually tried that also. I'll look and see if I still have the video of it somewhere. I used a stainless wall plate as the anode and a piece of aluminum conduit as the cathode. I think the electrolyte was baking soda. It made quite a bit of gas. I was out side and it started raining so I unhooked everything and took all the electrical stuff inside, when I came back for the electrolyzer it was still making gas, not as much but it was going by itself. The reaction here is the same only current is being used to break through the oxide layer. The oxygen in the water reacts with the aluminum to make alumina and that frees up the 2 hydrogen atoms. What surprised me was the reaction kept going ( although not as strong) after the current was removed."

Wow, so current can get the reaction going. When you removed the current and it kept going, at a lower production rate, I wonder if the film was reforming. Given more time I assume the reaction would have stopped.
I wonder what the minimum amount of current required to break the film is. If it is lower than electrolyzing, wouldn't you be able to make enough to run a generator? I've been looking high and low for a closed loop system where the generator supplies the power it takes to run itself while still having enough left over to use. I realize using aluminum would be "cheating" as the aluminum is what would actually be breaking hydrogen loose, but the end result would be the same with the one qualifier being that you have to supply the aluminum.
I found a book on converting engines to run on hydrogen. I think I'll order it and see if we can get a generator to run itself by either adding current to aluminum to get hydrogen, or off the hydrogen produced via chemical reaction.

Lastly, a friend of mine was telling me how he used to buff off the paint on aluminum cans for the heck of it. It made me wonder if an aluminum can could be used in the reaction if the printing was buffed off. Might be more work than it's worth. Don't know.

My last question would be, is the exhaust clean when using the hydrogen produced in an acid bath or does some of the pollution make it through the system and out the exhaust?

You all are great, BTW. Unbelievable commitment from you all. Thanks.

Smith03Jetta
08-04-2008, 05:08 PM
take a look at my youtube videos of aluminum reaction. i used a piece of an old Harley Davidson Transmission cover to make some hydrogen. It was dirty and took a while to start producing but when it did it was really good. It kept making gas the whole weekend after I disconnected the electricity. It didn't make a lot but it kept making it. My Youtube name is smithseats.

stickittoopec
08-04-2008, 08:31 PM
Wow, so current can get the reaction going. When you removed the current and it kept going, at a lower production rate, I wonder if the film was reforming. Given more time I assume the reaction would have stopped.
I wonder what the minimum amount of current required to break the film is. If it is lower than electrolyzing, wouldn't you be able to make enough to run a generator? I've been looking high and low for a closed loop system where the generator supplies the power it takes to run itself while still having enough left over to use. I realize using aluminum would be "cheating" as the aluminum is what would actually be breaking hydrogen loose, but the end result would be the same with the one qualifier being that you have to supply the aluminum.
I found a book on converting engines to run on hydrogen. I think I'll order it and see if we can get a generator to run itself by either adding current to aluminum to get hydrogen, or off the hydrogen produced via chemical reaction.

Lastly, a friend of mine was telling me how he used to buff off the paint on aluminum cans for the heck of it. It made me wonder if an aluminum can could be used in the reaction if the printing was buffed off. Might be more work than it's worth. Don't know.

My last question would be, is the exhaust clean when using the hydrogen produced in an acid bath or does some of the pollution make it through the system and out the exhaust?

You all are great, BTW. Unbelievable commitment from you all. Thanks.
Try it - it's easy. Get a container and a battery or battery charger a piece of aluminum can and a stainless steel wall plate. Put some baking soda in the water hook the positive to the stainless steel an the negative to the aluminum. Be sure to get a good connection and don't let the two pieces touch. When you turn on the power it will start slow then pick up. See Smith03Jetta 's video.

Smith03Jetta
I think those aluminum casings are anodized and are a higher grade aluminum. That will slow the reaction down. The drink cans are soft aluminum so they react faster. It's easy to melt aluminum I've seen it done on Youtube with paint cans and charcoal. I was going to take an old broom stick and route groves up and down the length and use that to form the sand mold. Instant fuel rods.

jjb2888
08-12-2008, 11:21 AM
I was looking at chemical reactions to produce hydrogen on the net. I had read an experiment performed by a member here before I looked this up. In the experiment here I saw that a member used aluminum foil in his electrolyzer unit and produced a massive amount of what he believed to be HHO. Then I looked up a method of producing pure hydrogen. This method uses pellets made of a combination of aluminum and gallium submersed in water to produce pure hydrogen. Here is the way it works. Aluminum will separate oxygen from hydrogen in water. What stops this from happening is a thin film that forms over the aluminum, caused by oxidation, the instant aluminum is submersed in water. Gallium stops this film from forming. Without this film coating aluminum in water, the aluminum absorbs the oxygen in the water, which breaks the hydrogen loose. The hydrogen can then be used to run an engine or hydrogen cell.

Now, back to the experiment here. What if the electrolyzer in his unit produced only a little bit of HHO while the aluminum produced the bulk of the gas, which I believe may have been pure hydrogen, not HHO? What if, when he put electricity through the aluminum foil, he broke that film and allowed the aluminum to react with the water to produce pure hydrogen?

If I'm right about this then an almost unlimited amount of hydrogen could be produced with very little input of energy. The input energy would be used ONLY to break this thin film on the aluminum, not to break loose the hydrogen from the oxygen. It would then be the aluminum absorbing oxygen from the water that produced the hydrogen as a byproduct for use in an ICE engine, not electrolysis.

The way to test this and prove it wrong so I can move on is to put a piece of aluminum in water and hit it with electricity. If no hydrogen forms then I'm wrong and I can get this out of my head. If hydrogen does form then I don't know what I'll do. Freak out? LOL.

It got me to thinking about Stan Meyer. What if he was using aluminum pipes instead of the stainless steel pipes like he claimed? What if he was hitting the aluminum pipes with just enough electricity to break the film so the aluminum could react with the water and make hydrogen? After all, did you read anywhere that anyone confirmed that those pipes were indeed stainless steel and not aluminum? Would you be able to tell the difference between stainless steel pipes and aluminum pipes if they were sitting in water and you couldn't hold them in your hands? And remember also that his "electrolyzer" produced no heat. Perhaps it produced no heat because breaking that film around aluminum requires no where near as much electricity as electrolyzing water.

OK, so I've absolutely got to be wrong about this, right? Please, please prove me wrong and post about it here. The sooner I get this foolishness out of my head the better. Thanks.
What is happening is the gallium is spread onto the aluminum and the dropped into the water. The aluminum reacts with the oxy in the water producing Aluminum Oxyide while the bubbles given off is Hydrogen. The only byproduct is Aluminum Oxyide. The Aluminum is consumed in the reaction with no electricity. The Gallium can be reclaimed out of the process easily and reused. The Gallium allows the Aluminum to oxydize without building that film. The problem is stopping the reaction when car is off.

mangyhyena
08-25-2008, 10:59 AM
The main question, when you get down to it, was; Can the oxide film on aluminum be broken with electricity? In other words, instead of electrolyzing to get HHO, can we use a much lower amount of electricity to break the oxide film on aluminum and produce pure hydrogen via a chemical reaction that does not require acid? Yes, it would look like electrolysis but it would actually be a chemical reaction jump-started by electricity.

That I could find, Stan Meyer never said he was producing HHO. Everyone assumed he was making HHO, just like they assumed his unit was an electrolyzer. I still think Stan Meyer was producing pure hydrogen and I believe he was using a chemical reaction to do it. I believe he was using SS pipes with aluminum pipes inside them. I think he was using pulsed, 1 amp/high voltage current to break the film on the aluminum pipes inside his SS pipes.

I could easily be wrong about this. But why, then, can no one reproduce his results going by his blueprints if we're not completely wrong about how his unit functioned? His unit functioned in some way no one understands. He used no additives in his water, very little electrical input, and got very high output of fuel. Aluminum pipes inside the SS pipes would explain the high production, the limited electrical input, and the lack of additives in the water of Stan's unit. If I'm right, which I might well not be.

sm0kin
08-25-2008, 12:11 PM
couple of things:

would it not be better to use pure hydrogen instead of hho? no need to deal with sensors and it burns slower making it more usable for say burners and heaters.

in using the aluminum and ss tubes does the aluminum also change to Aluminum Oxyide or does it not change because you are also producing oxygen?

I see something like this suppling hydrogen for home use. where its stationary and size could be as large as a shed with condensers for the water vapor.

could the hydrogen/steam be routed through a coil of copper to allow for cooling and condensing ? then return the water to the main unit with a copper check valve?