PDA

View Full Version : PWM linked to Throttle Position Sensor



Marlon
02-10-2010, 07:47 PM
I have been Toying with the idea of somehow linking a PWM controlling HHO production with the throttle position sensor so that as I accelerate more HHO is produced. This seems like the next step in HHO designs, since as things are now, the HHO is either on or off and takes no account of driving conditions.
Check out these smog results.
http://myhhohybrid.com/images/smog.jpg
As you can see the pollution benefits drop off at higher rpms, and I assume the MPG gains do too.
The trick with be to somehow have your EFIE be adjusted accordingly at the same time.

any thoughts?

Boltazar
02-10-2010, 09:22 PM
That's why I'm looking for this company, they had a few products that intergrated all these things together. I'm thinking they were bought out by another. Anybody with info on them please share it.

Boltazar
02-10-2010, 09:40 PM
As you can see the pollution benefits drop off at higher rpms, and I assume the MPG gains do too.

Yup they will. Liters per min of air intake increase as the engine rpm increases - HHO stays the same. Diminishing returns at the higher rpm level.

I see it as : I very seldom drive faster than 2500 rpm = 65 - 70 mph I'd like to make a cell that can deliver 5 lpm HHO just so that at the higher rpm the milage won't deminish to much. Having a device that can tweek the o2 sencers, adjust the pwm according to rpm for gas production, retard timing and monotor temps would be GREAT.

SOOOOOOOOOO where oh where is the HYDROXYCORP

316204
03-08-2010, 07:27 AM
marlon:))

if google hytronics module info, it is layedout like you want; maybe have to change pot value to suit your pwm, but its done.
gerald b.




I have been Toying with the idea of somehow linking a PWM controlling HHO production with the throttle position sensor so that as I accelerate more HHO is produced. This seems like the next step in HHO designs, since as things are now, the HHO is either on or off and takes no account of driving conditions.
Check out these smog results.
http://myhhohybrid.com/images/smog.jpg
As you can see the pollution benefits drop off at higher rpms, and I assume the MPG gains do too.
The trick with be to somehow have your EFIE be adjusted accordingly at the same time.

any thoughts?

Philldpapill
03-13-2010, 07:44 PM
I'm currently working on an all-in-one solution for HHO control. It's going to have a bunch of monitoring/data measurement/data logging capability such as gas production/current/voltage, etc. It will interface with a laptop or PC via a wireless link to the USB receiver. In other words, the controller would be mounted wherever your HHO cell is, and you can monitor/experiment/adjust stuff via your laptop.

I'm working on adding RPM sensing and HHO production throttling to it. However, my approach to getting the throttle position might turn out to be monitoring a spark plug wire to get RPM data. You might try sensing the spark plug firing... Or you could get one of my Hulk controllers... Currently, my cost projections are around $175 - $200.

davebarny59
03-14-2010, 11:17 AM
HI All

Having my head in all the youtube and some other formats i have a very basic idea of whats going on .I have not started any hho project but want to start in the right way

Forgive me if i am crawling over old ground the recent thread re the eec reset prompted me to join

i understand that storing the hho under pressure can cause it too ignite at what pressure would this occur if there was a safe preessure the heath robinson set ups that i see on utube and other sights could be simple controled using systems that already exsist to delever the hho safely and controled through the engine management placed in you vechile coupled with stepper motors for air in take system and timed sequential injected systems direct to the manifold

Also without a pressurised system just using the air induction method there are very reliable feed back systems for a controlled oxegen censors that can be installed w could be wired to dual fuel or chose a single fuel delivery

Any replys would be greatfully recieved

Not4spd
08-11-2010, 02:38 PM
To the OP

They already make something similar to what you are talking about. Typically they run around $120. People use them for their intercooler pumps. It is wired into the TPS and ramps up as more throttle is applied. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to adapt it to a gen. I will be using one when I build my kit.

myoldyourgold
08-11-2010, 04:32 PM
Controlling the PWM with the throttle position sensor is in its self good but I doubt of any value. The problem is the ECU. The adaptive capabilities of the ECU are extremely limited and it is hard enough to tune for a constant amount of HHO. I think unless you rewrote / reprogram the ECU it would not work, and if you reprogrammed the ECU there might not be a need to adjust the amount of HHO just adjust the fuel, everything will then change. This is way more complex than everyone makes it. This is not free stuff (HHO). HHO takes HP to make. You are only going to get a limited benefit off a limited amount of HHO, it is not unlimited. The returns start to diminish the more you try to make. Not to discourage anyone but you need to make what we have work. Make an efficient reactor and go from there. Look for the sweet spot for your engine/alternator. Keep it simple and safe.

Not4spd
08-11-2010, 05:42 PM
I would assume it would be better to control the amount of HHO production as it's being injected into the vehicle no? When less is made/used at idle and low speed this in turns means less heat is being created correct?

charliebrumfield
03-09-2011, 07:24 PM
Controlling the PWM with the throttle position sensor is in its self good but I doubt of any value. The problem is the ECU. The adaptive capabilities of the ECU are extremely limited and it is hard enough to tune for a constant amount of HHO. I think unless you rewrote / reprogram the ECU it would not work, and if you reprogrammed the ECU there might not be a need to adjust the amount of HHO just adjust the fuel, everything will then change. This is way more complex than everyone makes it. This is not free stuff (HHO). HHO takes HP to make. You are only going to get a limited benefit off a limited amount of HHO, it is not unlimited. The returns start to diminish the more you try to make. Not to discourage anyone but you need to make what we have work. Make an efficient reactor and go from there. Look for the sweet spot for your engine/alternator. Keep it simple and safe.

ummm no... i find that most hho folks throw out all kinds of theories about car engines that are just flat wrong, and it's mainly because they just don't know. they tend not to be car guys. so i'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never done any dyno tuning. it's quite easy to get the ecu to change all kinds of parameters throughout the entire rpm range. tuners do it all the time. hell in ford's new tivct motors you can change the valve train timing up to 60 degrees anywhere you choose in the rpm range with nothing more than a laptop.

anyway back on topic the original poster is correct. linking the hho generator's pwm to the ecu is the next evolutionary step in hho generator contol. with out that link the hho generator will never be efficient enough to see a benefit across the entire range of rpm. the only issue is going to be the throttle position sensor itself. some of them are analog and can report any position from 0 - 100 %. some like the mazda miata have three positions idle/not idle/wot. and in drivee by wire cars like the corvette it gets even trickier since your right foot may be at 75% throttle but the computer is only at 50%. so i think your best may be not be the idle position sensor but the map or maf sensor. base your hydroxy production on how much air flow the engine is demanding.

myoldyourgold
03-09-2011, 08:20 PM
ummm no... i find that most hho folks throw out all kinds of theories about car engines that are just flat wrong, and it's mainly because they just don't know. they tend not to be car guys. so i'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never done any dyno tuning. it's quite easy to get the ecu to change all kinds of parameters throughout the entire rpm range. tuners do it all the time. hell in ford's new tivct motors you can change the valve train timing up to 60 degrees anywhere you choose in the rpm range with nothing more than a laptop.

Charlie, I guess I have not met the right tuner. Everyone I have asked to do what I want says that it is not possible or illegal. Maybe you could point me in the right direction. If this is possible I know many HHO enthusiasts and manufactures who would be knocking at their door. Unless the cost is prohibitive and illegal (not passed by CARB, EPA) I will be first in line. The solutions that are available that are legal and not to expensive are very limited as far as results go.

charliebrumfield
03-10-2011, 06:46 AM
if you are in cali then you're screwed. well maybe not. it's going to be decidedly more difficult as our wonderful left coast friends are trying to make hot rodding a crime. you'll just have to find the right shop that knows what they are talking about.

anywhere else in the country you can do what ever you want to the engine / drive train as long as you can pass the emissions test. and any good tuning shop will be glad to take your business. the problem is most hho folks go to a mechanic. mechanic's are not tuners! they fix things back to oem stock. that's not what we want. we want performance. so we need to take it to a performance/race shop.guys that set cars up for the drag strip. slap blowers and turbos on cars. shops that think nothing of pulling out a built 700hp ls3 and dropping in a lsx block to make a 1000 hp street driven 2010 camaro. guys like adm performance (http://admperformance.com/) here in texas.

however dyno tuning is not cheep. good shops charge $100 to $250 and hour for a dyno tune. however it's worth every penny if you want to see proven results. and until folks actually start doing this i think hho is still going to be considered just so much snake oil.

myoldyourgold
03-10-2011, 07:27 AM
if you are in cali then you're screwed. well maybe not. it's going to be decidedly more difficult as our wonderful left coast friends are trying to make hot rodding a crime. you'll just have to find the right shop that knows what they are talking about.

anywhere else in the country you can do what ever you want to the engine / drive train as long as you can pass the emissions test. and any good tuning shop will be glad to take your business. the problem is most hho folks go to a mechanic. mechanic's are not tuners! they fix things back to oem stock. that's not what we want. we want performance. so we need to take it to a performance/race shop.guys that set cars up for the drag strip. slap blowers and turbos on cars. shops that think nothing of pulling out a built 700hp ls3 and dropping in a lsx block to make a 1000 hp street driven 2010 camaro. guys like adm performance here in texas.

Sounds good but if you even read Mega Squirt's (posted below) or Adm Performance's own disclaimer you will see the law is national just enforced in California more. There is only one approved system that I know of but maybe more now. One thing we both agree on and that is if you live in California you are screwed!! It is a real sad affair when you make your car burn more efficiently and you take it to California and because the exhaust is too clean you fail their test and get fined for the alteration. If that don't crisp you nothing will.


WARNING: In the U.S.A. or Canada, federal law makes it illegal for ANYONE to tamper with, disconnect, remove or otherwise render inoperative ANY automotive emissions related control device. In general, the entire fuel system and all its individual components (including the EFI ECU) are considered 'emissions related control devices'. The penalties for tampering can be substantial. A violation may make you liable for a fine of $2,500 or even more!

charliebrumfield
03-10-2011, 10:24 AM
where i live so long as you have a cat and can pass emissions you're good to go. in cali if they see a modification done to your car you fail. doesn't even matter if you can pass the emissions test. atleast that's what i've been told. like i said before i don't live there so i have no clue what the actual law is. that's just what i've been told. plenty of aftermarket companies sell carb legal / 50 state approved stuff though so i'm probably wrong.

myoldyourgold
03-10-2011, 11:53 AM
Texas is better all the way around compared to California!! California is going to commit suicide any day now. Come to think about it they have already started using a slow method and looks like towards the end it will speed up. LOL As far a CARB 50 state stuff I was referring only to HHO reactors. :(

55zed
03-14-2011, 02:38 AM
Hi, I am super new at this HHO thing, have just bought a system and am
watching for the Postie.
This thread re the control for the HHO generator by TPS is close to my
question..
Would there be any advantage of fitting a switch on the throttle linkage
to turn off the HHO generator at idle? for when stuck in slow moving traffic?
or when throttle off when decelerating?
Would the HHO build up to problem levels in these conditions?

Sorry if I am going over old issues
Thank you, John

borescopeit
03-22-2011, 05:56 PM
Have not tried that yet, but it is on my TODO list:
since I am controlling my PWM with a microcontroller, I want to manage frequency sensing of alternator output. At higher RPMs the frequency of the Vout should be higher than at idle 700-900 for diesel. (Did not measure frequencies yet, but this might be very healthy approach to RPM sensing).

Another idea I am managing to utilize is sensing voltage output in two places: alternator positive terminal and right before the PFETs connection. Comparing the voltage measurements I see the real voltage drop and can figure out straight calculation of amperage drow. Another thing is that with healthy alternator you are outputting around 13.6-14.6 Volts when running at high RPMs. When the truck/car idles, there is lower voltage output there, when stalled, the voltage is bellow 13.2 V.

Probably should not continue further...

antihero
04-01-2011, 11:59 AM
Forget trying to set the hydrogen output by reading the throttle position or measuring the air intake volume. The pulse width of the fuel injector is exactly proportional to engine demands. I am currently capturing it with an optocoupler connected to a microcontroller input.

55zed
04-02-2011, 01:02 PM
Mine is not EFI, just a boreing 2.8 turbo diesel

Mikeal
01-07-2013, 03:21 AM
Has anyone ever come-up with a solution for HHO throttle control?
I know Central Valley say they have a Manifold pressure controlled PWM.

What do you guys think.