Design being played with

[c02cutter]

This is representation of a cell design I have been playing with. All materials 316 stainless steel, with nylon shoulder washers and flat washers for isolation. Currently I am using the same design without all the small holes in it as shown in the original disc pdf. The one in the concept design I will cut today, but will not be able to test till tomorrow. This was based as a heavy duty replacement for mason jar style cells but can be adapted to larger configurations also.

original disc (http://c02cutter.com/SSHHOROUND.PDF)

new concept (http://c02cutter.com/cell_design_concept.PDF)

[daveczrn]

the holes are intresting... what are their purpose? I've done plate setups with a small screw and nuts holding everything in place... that works pretty well. I would recomend maybe a 3rd connector that doesn't even need to touch anything... it would just keep the sides of the plates from touching.

Good luck with it... i would like to know how it turns out.

[c02cutter]

The sides of the plates can't touch as the material is .062" stainless steel it is way beyond rigid. The cell assembled is really strong, and is about bullet proof. The holes are just to help release the gas as it builds up under the plates. Doing bench tests with the solid plate design I observed that this would possibly be an idea to try.

[kajreklaw]

The sides of the plates can't touch as the material is .062" stainless steel it is way beyond rigid. The cell assembled is really strong, and is about bullet proof. The holes are just to help release the gas as it builds up under the plates. Doing bench tests with the solid plate design I observed that this would possibly be an idea to try.

great design, it resembles a TERO CELL (a Bob Boyce design).. from the latest/new design pdf you've got 10plates, are they all + | - .. or are there any neutrals???

btw, what prigram are you using to draw/make the picture?? I mean before you pdf-it?

[c02cutter]

I forgot about this material I had in the shop. This is micro mesh Stainless. Might not be any good, but I'm going to play with it just cause I can. Even if it works really well it would not be an economical solution as the price of this stuff is very rude.

http://c02cutter.com/web/DSCN0934.jpg

[HomeGrown]

I recognize that standard drawing sheet, and I want to say Inventor, but it could be SolidWorks.

What are you cutting that material with? Looks extremely neat, almost like waterjet. Lots of surface area on that material, I imagine it would produce pretty well! BTW. love the design!

[dennis13030]

http://c02cutter.com/web/DSCN0934.jpg

I thought this stuff might work VERY well for the neutral plates, not the anodes/cathodes.

Anybody else's comments please?

[c02cutter]

I use Solidworks, Autocad, Bobcad, Rhino and Spacecam... All depends on what I am doing at any given moment. As for cutting this mesh disc was cut using a Mazak Space Gear 48, 2kw laser. I also have a Mazak Space Gear 510 with a 4kw laser. Also 6 other 900w machines, older Laserdyne 780's.

[HomeGrown]

:eek: LOTS of high-end equipment there, 02. :cool:

Dennis, that makes good sense about it being well suited for neutral plates (from my limited knowledge, anyway :p ).

[Stratous]

Wouldnt using perforated sheetmetal increase current leakage?

[dennis13030]

Maybe a little. Current will still take the path of least resistance. I would think that very little current(if any) would bypass the neutral plate(s).

[Dewayne]

I think you would need a PWM to keep the bubbles from collecting in the holes.

[c02cutter]

I'll play with it tonight. I think I'll start out with a +NN-NN+NN-NN+ configuration but stacked till there are 10 N used. I cut 10 to be isolated as N to start for playing around. I will use the old design of solid disc's for the anodes and cathodes as I have a few of those on hand without having to cut anything on the machine. Then just some low amp tests as my small bench supply will push 12 amps, but I like to keep it below 8 amps. As I have said there is a really limited supply of this material at my shop, also I found out that the company that produced this micro screen is now outta business with also the customer that we did jobs for that used this material. Sucks if the stuff works really good, but thats the breaks of playing.

[clarence1984]

come on the cell is all about surface area bob boyce proved this already why are people still miles behind him. We should all be on the same track here instead of the doper in the back seat of the class passing notes about what happened last year.


With this being said.

If we are going to use ss how do we get more stainless steel in the same area? Any ideas? It's called sintering. Micro particles welded together by heat or electricity to form one mass. They use these in cleanable filters in industry already. Remember were not working on a layer that can be seen by your eye it's electroscopic meaning we have to tend to the smaller reactions of the cell.

Sintered plates would be the only benefit of using ss for a cell. I have talked to hundred of manufacturers but as I don't live in the contiguous united states I'm unable to have anything shipped to me (retarded i know) but as you guys are down there in the regular lower 48 you can try this. You will increase surface area by 300 percent by using sintered stainless plates.

By using perforated plates you cause current leakage and reduce the surface area why would you want to reduce the area that the electrochemical reaction can occur?

I don't want to sound mean here but people please use google

it's www.google.com bob boyce isn't a genius just a do-er.

My thoughts on Stanley meyers too (i just need to get this out) i think he was on a good road to finding out something however he died before he was able to. What happened to the supposed car? By the way has anyone looked at the fact that he was sued by many people that loaned him money for his studies when he failed to produce anything with the money they gave him he was charged with this in a court and the jury found him guilty and he was fined to pay back all there money. He simply borrowed from the wrong guy and got plugged. He was a two faced smart guy. Sure he did some good things for this all but on the other hand he left his investors on a limb never communicated and pissed off alot of people. So for all those stanley lovers you make me angry for praising him. Simply takes some of his patents which are not all used to make a water powered car. Do what you must and take it for a grain of salt. If you noticed by trying these patents they don't really do crap to facilitate a car that only runs on water. Because Faraday was the real genius in saying that you can't get out more than you put in.

Here's a tip from someone who's designed this whole thing on paper already. If you can't get more than you put in from one source.... that's all i'm going to say.

[HomeGrown]

That preforated ss should have a lot more available surface area than the solid plates.

/\ /\ states obvious /\ /\ :D

[c02cutter]

I did some testing and took video, but as I had to go into work I left my patch cable for the camcorder at work. I mixed fresh electrolyte for the first test using NaOH that I forgot I had from some anodizing I had been doing. First I ran my old (+-+-+-+-+-+-+-) cell. This cell draws a pile more current with a lot less electrolyte. Had to keep watering down the mix till on my bench power supply till it was drawing about 6 amps @ 13.5v. Production was decent, though not outstanding but what I am use to with this design.

The next test was set up as (+NNNNN-NNNNN+) and again had to adjust the electrolyte for 6 amps @ 13.5 volts. This cell took a much stronger electrolyte to operate at the designated voltage and amps. Production, though not measured was again decent, but still not what expected.

The configuration that I said in an earlier post was my best producer. It is set up as (+NN-NN+NN-NN+) I didn't add the next set of “N” plates as I was at work and didn't have all the parts available to me while baby sitting the wiring guys. The electrolyte is the same mix as the similar smack cell and @ 13.5v cold was drawing 6.5 amps. Once the cell started to warm up the amperage came up to 11 amps @ 13.5v. And the production pours out. I make no claims as to true production volume as I have not measured it with a flow meter. I have one, but not ready to hook it up to do a measurement. Currently the cell has been running for over an hour, I have kick backed the voltage to 9v, the amperage is at 7amp and it is steadily producing with a temperature of 124 deg F. I will take a sample of the electrolyte and have an accurate test done to see where my electrolyte is actually at % wise. Tomorrow I will use KOH and see if the same results come from the same cells.

Another note here is I also hooked the cell up as (-NN+NN-NN+NN-) by just reversing the polarity and it drew the same amps but noticed that in this cell configuration that production is more consistent over the whole cell.


Will post video tomorrow,

[c02cutter]

Well i have to wait till I get to the house to post video now, my camcorder won't work with vista. That will be the third device I have had issues with on this new laptop.

[kajreklaw]

Well i have to wait till I get to the house to post video now, my camcorder won't work with vista. That will be the third device I have had issues with on this new laptop.

I have downgraded my users to xp/sp3... they can't stand the memory hog and lack of device support! good luck, let us know where to watch your video!

[c02cutter]

I am having nothing but issues with the camcorder. I hadn't used it in over a year, now am also having issues getting the vid out with my xp machine. So I bought a new one that should arrive by the end of the week. Will redo the same process I did before for the video footage. The old one is going to be ebay fodder...

[BoyntonStu]

come on the cell is all about surface area bob boyce proved this already why are people still miles behind him. We should all be on the same track here instead of the doper in the back seat of the class passing notes about what happened last year.


With this being said.

If we are going to use ss how do we get more stainless steel in the same area? Any ideas? It's called sintering. Micro particles welded together by heat or electricity to form one mass. They use these in cleanable filters in industry already. Remember were not working on a layer that can be seen by your eye it's electroscopic meaning we have to tend to the smaller reactions of the cell.

Sintered plates would be the only benefit of using ss for a cell. I have talked to hundred of manufacturers but as I don't live in the contiguous united states I'm unable to have anything shipped to me (retarded i know) but as you guys are down there in the regular lower 48 you can try this. You will increase surface area by 300 percent by using sintered stainless plates.

By using perforated plates you cause current leakage and reduce the surface area why would you want to reduce the area that the electrochemical reaction can occur?

I don't want to sound mean here but people please use google

it's www.google.com bob boyce isn't a genius just a do-er.

My thoughts on Stanley meyers too (i just need to get this out) i think he was on a good road to finding out something however he died before he was able to. What happened to the supposed car? By the way has anyone looked at the fact that he was sued by many people that loaned him money for his studies when he failed to produce anything with the money they gave him he was charged with this in a court and the jury found him guilty and he was fined to pay back all there money. He simply borrowed from the wrong guy and got plugged. He was a two faced smart guy. Sure he did some good things for this all but on the other hand he left his investors on a limb never communicated and pissed off alot of people. So for all those stanley lovers you make me angry for praising him. Simply takes some of his patents which are not all used to make a water powered car. Do what you must and take it for a grain of salt. If you noticed by trying these patents they don't really do crap to facilitate a car that only runs on water. Because Faraday was the real genius in saying that you can't get out more than you put in.

Here's a tip from someone who's designed this whole thing on paper already. If you can't get more than you put in from one source.... that's all i'm going to say.

Great and logical post.

Sintered SS plates = expensive.

Sand blasted or even chemically photo lithography etched with a fine pattern might be a better way 2go.


BoyntonStu

[c02cutter]

Great and logical post.

Sintered SS plates = expensive.

Sand blasted or even chemically photo lithography etched with a fine pattern might be a better way 2go.


BoyntonStu

The disc with the holes is chemically photo lithography etched , still = expensive! If my memory is correct the etched material was in the neighborhood of $900.00 per 22" x 22" section.

I did finally get some of the video out, but being mad didn't help, I lost a bunch of it to rerecording without realizing with the cap on. I did get the some of the last cell configuration, though it was after it was up and running for a bit. I'll redo the whole thing again after the new cam comes in.

This may not be active yet, but will be soon.

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[c02cutter]

Ok redid the vid for the 3rd test. Just for the because, the second and first config to follow, just not tonight... tired.

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[countryboy18]

why not try the cell in the horizontal position it would alow the gas to excape the plats faster insted of sitting on the plate above it?

[clarence1984]

Posting back on a reply to my post. I like the photo etching idea i used to do that with my circuit board work I used to do for my projects. It will be hard to find an acid or use it though that's environmentally friendly on stainless. I'm thinking sulfuric acid i believe i have a little of that. I'll give it a try tonight. I'm still fond of the high density ultra fine graphite though.

[c02cutter]

I know that the acid etched material is possible to do, sulfuric should do it, but be very ventilated!!! I use sulfuric, and NaOH for anodizing.

I did a smack cell today using all 316SS it's a straight (+NNNNN- -NNNNN+) config. I didn't have any shrink wrap large enough for wrapping the cell, so I used a trick I know from dealing with lasers with 50000v of DC running through them. In the summer with the humidity we will have issues with high voltage arcs. This happens as DC will reroute in to where it feels is a faster point of ground. The higher the voltages, the more of a possibility of this happening. The machine always arcs to the same basic structure inside there. Well I wrap it with stretch wrap, problem solved, and it did the same in the cell. Don't recommend it as a permanent fix, but it does work.

I had never read the smack cell design pdf till being in these forums, it makes sense to wrap the outside of the cell to direct the energy flow.

[hydropower KY]

I thought this stuff might work VERY well for the neutral plates, not the anodes/cathodes.

Anybody else's comments please?
I have been using something similar.They are the K-strainers that are used in water treatment plants.The difference is they are cylindrical.Range is 1,1.250,1.5,1.750,2,2.250,2.5,and 2.750 inch.The problem is that they are VERY expensive.They are made of 305 stainless screen.They have more surface area than anything I have found.The production seems to be more intense with lower amps. [/QUOTE]

[c02cutter]

The job that we used this material for required us to cut to length and width and then laser weld the material into a cylinder. The cylinder idea is good, and I think I will cut and laser weld cylinders for testing. But I will use the material as the anode and cathode just to see if it holds up.

[c02cutter]

Yesterday I played around with a smack style cell. It is constructed with .062 thick 316SS, and all stainless hardware That I had laying around from the other cells I have been playing around with. I found that wrapping the cell does do a lot for the electrical path, and also causes a substantial drop in amperage drawn by the cell. The cell configuration is (+NNNNN- -NNNNN+). The plates are 4”x2.5” with tabs for the stainless all thread to attach the corresponding plates. I went with all thread to conect them instead of a strap as it was convent without having to cut another part.

Here is some pictures. I notices some mineral developing in the cell, but as the distilled water was from Marks, I am convinced it is from crappy water as when I get distilled water from other places the same mix produces no mineral. Here are some pics of the cell after running it for about 15 hours.

http://c02cutter.com/web/DSCN0992.jpg

http://c02cutter.com/web/DSCN0989.jpg

http://c02cutter.com/web/DSCN0990.jpg

Also video I did on it.

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[BoyntonStu]

Very nice, too nice!

Why?

Those beautiful plates, edges, rounded corners, connectors, etc. must be covered up and insulated for increased efficiency.

They are so pretty, I am sure it will be hard to do.

Watch Smack and Zero on Youtube and see their results with wrapping and sealing.

Again,

Great workmanship.

BoyntonStu

[c02cutter]

Thanks for the complement on the workmanship.

Why?

Well it's how they come off my lasers. I cut this thin stainless like butter at 125 inches per minute.

Guess I ought to do a video for you guys of the machine cutting plates. Might grant a better understanding to what a laser is capable of.

[smartHHO]

So that laser at your work, or you build one of those too? LOL

[countryboy18]

very nice job with your cell. ya please post a video of your cuting machine!