PDA

View Full Version : The bloom box



HHO BLASTER
02-21-2010, 10:27 PM
<embed src='http://cnettv.cnet.com/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/player-dest.swf' FlashVars='linkUrl=http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6228923n&releaseURL=http://cnettv.cnet.com/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/player-dest.swf&videoId=50083943&partner=news&vert=News&si=254&autoPlayVid=false&name=cbsPlayer&allowScriptAccess=always&wmode=transparent&embedded=y&scale=noscale&rv=n&salign=tl' allowFullScreen='true' width='425' height='324' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer'></embed><br/><a href='http://www.cbsnews.com'>Watch CBS News Videos Online</a>

RustyLugNut
02-22-2010, 12:10 AM
It comes down to cost. Can they cut the cost of the system to make them viable to the larger market. Platinum catalyst use needs to be cut. Catalyst poisoning needs to be minimized to make unit lifespans workable with the natural gas fuels.

They are not the only ones who are working on this, so it will be these small fish against the established companies.

HHO BLASTER
02-22-2010, 12:27 PM
it comes down to cost. Can they cut the cost of the system to make them viable to the larger market. Platinum catalyst use needs to be cut. Catalyst poisoning needs to be minimized to make unit lifespans workable with the natural gas fuels.

They are not the only ones who are working on this, so it will be these small fish against the established companies.

rustylugnut, where are you getting platinum into the picture, i

think you need to see it again, he never said he would use platinum, it cost to much, he said he would use a special cheap metal

RustyLugNut
02-22-2010, 12:56 PM
Platinum is used in just about all the high performance fuel cells in development. The Holy Grail of fuel cells is to replace the use of platinum with much cheaper catalysts. With out that replacement catalyst, there are many technologies that minimize the need for platinum to the point it becomes less worrisome to the overall cost.

By the size of the power brick he held up to show what was needed to power the average American home, my guess is that he is pursuing the course of minimal platinum deposited on cheaper substrates as the energy density of that size brick would be difficult with lesser catalysts. There are now compounds that are comparable to platinum in electrode performance, but they exist only in labs at this point.

RustyLugNut
02-22-2010, 02:11 PM
In reviewing the video link, a couple points jogged my memory and lead me to believe Bloombox is not using a traditional low temperature fuel cell.

The mention of migrating oxygen ions through the electrolyte as well as the use of gaseous hydrocarbon fuels points to the Bloombox as being a form of a Solid Oxide Fuel Cell.

SOFC's come with their own set of problems, heat being one of them. However, the problems are more in the realm of applied engineering and more doable than being a research exercise. If the inventor has found a common catalyst that reduces the need to run the SOFC stack at the usual 500 - 1000 deg C, he could really make a run at being the first to market. The fact that he has attracted a big name investor who is sure to have a science and technical review team before any monies are release leads me to believe he has something here.

HHO BLASTER
02-22-2010, 02:53 PM
In reviewing the video link, a couple points jogged my memory and lead me to believe Bloombox is not using a traditional low temperature fuel cell.

The mention of migrating oxygen ions through the electrolyte as well as the use of gaseous hydrocarbon fuels points to the Bloombox as being a form of a Solid Oxide Fuel Cell.

SOFC's come with their own set of problems, heat being one of them. However, the problems are more in the realm of applied engineering and more doable than being a research exercise. If the inventor has found a common catalyst that reduces the need to run the SOFC stack at the usual 500 - 1000 deg C, he could really make a run at being the first to market. The fact that he has attracted a big name investor who is sure to have a science and technical review team before any monies are release leads me to believe he has something here.

Good, glad were now on the same page i wish him well.

Been thinking if it's DC OUT, OF COURSE IT HAS TO BE, COULD IT BE USED

TO MAKE A HYBRID CAR, CHEAP FUEL, TO DC TO ELECTRIC MOTOR AND WOULD IT BUY ANYTHING

COULD THE CAR NOW USE A CHEAPER FUEL THEN NATURAL GAS HE TALKS

OF OTHER FUELS. .... IS NOT TOTALLY CLEAR WHAT KINDS OF FUELS THIS

WILL RUN ON AND HOW OTHER FUELS WOULD BE USED

RustyLugNut
02-22-2010, 03:00 PM
You give yourself too much credit.

RustyLugNut
02-22-2010, 09:45 PM
Good, glad were now on the same page i wish him well.

Been thinking if it's DC OUT, OF COURSE IT HAS TO BE, COULD IT BE USED

TO MAKE A HYBRID CAR, CHEAP FUEL, TO DC TO ELECTRIC MOTOR AND WOULD IT BUY ANYTHING

COULD THE CAR NOW USE A CHEAPER FUEL THEN NATURAL GAS HE TALKS

OF OTHER FUELS. .... IS NOT TOTALLY CLEAR WHAT KINDS OF FUELS THIS

WILL RUN ON AND HOW OTHER FUELS WOULD BE USED

DC is what fuel cells output. And yes, they have tried them in vehicles but the long start up time (around 1 hour) of traditional SOFC makes them impractical for vehicular use outside of long run heavy lift carriers. Even with micro channel technology, the SOFC still takes minutes to start up. It would be applicable to a hybrid however. I am aware of several autos that use such a configuration - electric drive with a fuel cell power unit.

It can consume most gaseous hydrocarbons. The news clip mentions landfill gas. Just as long as you strip out the sulfur which degrades the catalysts. SOFC also are capable of running on liquids such as alcohols.

Roland Jacques
02-23-2010, 09:20 AM
Hi Blaster, That Bloombox sounds pretty awesome. It will be interesting to follow. Do you know the date of that broadcast?

HHO BLASTER
02-23-2010, 10:00 AM
Hi Blaster, That Bloombox sounds pretty awesome. It will be interesting to follow. Do you know the date of that broadcast?

Sure i do, it's SUNDAY FEBRUARY 21 2010 LAST SUNDAY AT 7PM ON CBS

RustyLugNut
02-23-2010, 11:51 AM
This has been a stimulating discussion. Thanks for getting it going Blaster.

We should keep posting current information on fuel cell related matters - for conjecture, discussion and dissection.

The same can be said for the other thread Blaster started on oil from Texas coal. Keep collecting info on alternative hydrocarbon production.

Both areas directly relate to this HHO forum as we try to gain efficiency and extend our oil supply in hopes of using this as a bridge to the eventual introduction of clean electric drives and fuel cells.

So, how does one make a sticky out of these two threads?

hanglide4life
02-23-2010, 10:20 PM
find other great new tech fresh news

here
http://green.venturebeat.com/

or here
http://news.cnet.com/greentech/?tag=hdr;snav

RustyLugNut
02-24-2010, 10:32 AM
Excellent food for thought.

HHO BLASTER
02-24-2010, 11:33 AM
find other great new tech fresh news

here
http://green.venturebeat.com/

or here
http://news.cnet.com/greentech/?tag=hdr;snav

Super good find, thanks

I LIKE THIS ONE

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MqnpTUVaSes&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MqnpTUVaSes&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://green.venturebeat.com/2010/02/22/eden-park-scores-2m-to-bring-led-alternative-to-market/

HHO BLASTER
02-24-2010, 11:42 AM
Oorja unveils methanol fuel cell that could triple EV driving ranges

http://green.venturebeat.com/2010/02/17/oorja-unveils-methanol-fuel-cell-that-could-triple-ev-driving-ranges/

hanglide4life
02-24-2010, 08:41 PM
A friend who is an engineer for saft (the battery manufacturer) told me 2 new big plants going up in florida and michigan? for lithium batt production and that in 5 years batteries will be 5 times as capable as they are today due to increases in density and efficiency. He says the implications are mind boggling. we'll see, can't wait..

HHO BLASTER
02-24-2010, 10:08 PM
Bloom Energy says its devices provide 100 kilowatts (kW) of power "in roughly the footprint of a parking space," and you can see Google's quartet of devices in the 60 Minutes piece. Google is using natural gas with the boxes, but the Bloom Energy says the devices can convert "nearly any fuel source," including natural gas, ethanol, biogas, sun, wind, or even, well, Vodka.

eBay is using biogas with the five boxes it's testing at its corporate headquarters in San Jose. The online auction house installed the devices none months ago, opting for biogas made from landfill waste. eBay chief executive John Donahoe says the units provide about 15 per cent of the power on its campus.

Judging from Larry Page's comments, the boxes are still very much in the testing stage. Speaking with 60 Minutes, Bloom Energy founder K.R. Sridhar said that three weeks after installation of Google's headquarters, one of the boxes "just stopped" and that there were subsequent problems with clogged air filters. Sridhar indicated that the latter problem could be solved by "turning the system around."

While working at NASA in the 90s, Sridhar produced a system designed to produce oxygen for life on Mars, and after NASA's Mars mission was scraped, he reversed the system - pumping oxygen into it - to produce his fuel cell. Oxygen and fuel combine within the cell to produce electricity.

The pitch is that the units - made of thousands of flat ceramic fuel cells - will provide a "cleaner" and more efficient alternative to the traditional electrical grid. The units cost between $700,000 and $800,000, and the company claims that buyers can expect to recoup the cost in energy savings in three to five years.

At the moment, the company is only selling its "parking space" units for commercial use, but it plans to sell smaller residential units in five to 10 years.

oicu812
02-24-2010, 10:13 PM
I work as a lineman for the second largest utility in America. Someday this thing could put Electric Utilities out of business. Thank God I can retire in eight more years.

HHO BLASTER
02-25-2010, 12:59 AM
I work as a lineman for the second largest utility in America. Someday this thing could put Electric Utilities out of business. Thank God I can retire in eight more years.

I got into selling and installing large satellite in 1982 then when the small dishes came along it hurt then i made money with them for awhile but now i see internet video like the roku coming along

the phone company thought they had it made, until cell, and now voice over ip like magic jack

so i see electric power Look up Google energy

HHO BLASTER
02-25-2010, 10:47 AM
Bloom Energy, Inc. provides solid oxide fuel cell technology and products for distributed electricity and hydrogen generation. Bloom Energy, Inc. was founded as Ion America, Inc. and changed its name to Bloom Energy, Inc. in September 2006. The company is based in Sunnyvale, California.

Bloom Energy announced its plans to raise $150 million in sixth-round capital to establish a market for its product — which has yet to launch. Bloom Energy says it has booked most of this funding with Advanced Equities Investment. Bloom Energy’s planned Initial Public Offering or IPO has been valued at $1.45 billion.

Bloom Energy says it expects to bring in billions of dollars in revenue over the next couple of years by riding the green technology trend, cutting energy costs for users and reducing their carbon footprints. To do so, Bloom Energy will sell and lease its fuel cell systems.

Bloom Energy is also playing with the idea of purchasing power through a subsidiary (which has yet to be formed). First developed by NASA, Bloom Energy’s fuel cells are made out of cheap materials but are able to run at higher temperatures and have the capacity to store as well as make energy. These fuel cells operate by converting natural gas and some renewable feedstocks into hydrogen. Just one fuel cell can generate enough electricity for a home or small business.

Now going to back to the question in the title, what is Bloom Box? How does a bloom box look alike? The Bloom Box is kind of like an industrial-sized refrigerator, that sucks up oxygen on one side and fuel (natural gas, biomass, etc) on the other. Reports say that Bloom Energy bakes sand and cuts it into little squares that are turned into a ceramic, which are then coated with green and black “inks.” Using a special process Bloom Energy creates these ceramic discs and stacks them together interspersed with metal plates of “a cheap metal alloy.” The bigger the stack the more power the Bloom Box will create.

Below is a picture of a Bloom Box used by Bloom Energy:

A lot of stock investors are now speculating that Bloomberg Fuel Cell would be the next Google. Founded by a former NASA scientist, Bloom Energy is developing fuel cells for homes and businesses that produce clean, efficient electricity through chemical reactions. Its lead product is a cell that can convertnatural gas and plant products into hydrogen fuel.

What do you think about Bloom Energy Cell? Can its main product fuel cell generate enough savings to serve the purpose of more economic friendly green technology?

Here are some of the news we gathered about Bloom Energy:

- Bloom Energy customers include eBay, Google, Lockheed, Wal-Mart, Staples and the CIA.

- There are rumors of an enormous Bloom Energy government contract and a multi-million dollar order backlog from Coca-Cola and FedEx.

- eBay ordered four of the Bloom Energy’s 100-kilowatt units.

- Adobe may have purchased some Bloom boxes.

- The San Francisco Airport has Bloom fuel cells in their possession.

- The Google fuel cell installation is 400 kilowatts. Bloom Energy’s first 100-kilowatt unit went to Google.

- Bloom Energy is focusing on a new business model by engaging customers in a power purchase agreement (PPA). With this approach, Bloom Energy might keep the fuel cell themselves (or own it in a joint venture with a utility) and sell the power. PPAs have been effective financing tools for solar, wind and some biomass/manure firms. PPAs also eliminate any fears about maintenance and upkeep.

- East Tennessee will be the location of a 100-kilowatt demonstration fuel cell developed by Bloom Energy that could be a precursor to the potential siting of a manufacturing facility in Tennessee. The system will be at the Electric Power Board HQ in Chattanooga. The project is funded through a federal appropriation as well as support from the Electric Power Board’s research and development organization. The system is a 25-kilowatt unit and they put four together for a 100-kilowatt system.

- Bloom Energy’s fule cell run on natural gas, propane, biofuels or diesel which gives them about 48 percent overall efficiency.

- Bloom Energy’s Board members and observers include John Doerr of KPCB, Vinod Khosla of Khosla Ventures, and T.J. Rodgers, the CEO of Cypress Semiconductor.

- Bloom Energy’s advisors include Colin Powell and Floyd Kvamme.

Bloom Energy’s idea is to one day replace the big power plants and transmission line grid, the way the laptop moved in on the desktop and cell phones supplanted landlines. Watch out for more updates on Bloom Energy’s stocks and other news. Do you think Bloom Energy’s green technology is the solution to the global warming bringing climate change to earth?

Update: Bloom Energy recently has a Bloom Energy Press Conference. Find out the highlights of the Press Conference by going here.

Also, Bloom Energy’s Bloom Box has been featured at 60 minutes. You can watch the 60 minutes video here.

oicu812
02-25-2010, 11:36 AM
I understand the basic concept of a fuel cell.
The Bloom Box is kind of like an industrial-sized refrigerator, that sucks up oxygen on one side and fuel (natural gas, biomass, etc) on the other. Reports say that Bloom Energy bakes sand and cuts it into little squares that are turned into a ceramic, which are then coated with green and black “inks.” Using a special process Bloom Energy creates these ceramic discs and stacks them together interspersed with metal plates of “a cheap metal alloy.” The bigger the stack the more power the Bloom Box will create.
what I dont understand is why the cataylsist and proton exchange membrane dosen't get poisioned from the carbon. Sure the silica/ceramic plates can withstand the 1000 degree temperatures and reforms the feedstock into H2 rich gas but during startup before it gets up to temperature how do they solve that problem? I'm thinking the plates are screen printed with a platinum, rutheum type dye?

HHO BLASTER
02-25-2010, 12:12 PM
look up there patent

Roland Jacques
02-28-2010, 08:39 AM
Does anyone know, what is the byproduct of this energy making/converting process?

They talk in general as to they save money and resources. But how much saving in percentages are they talking?

HHO BLASTER
02-28-2010, 02:32 PM
About $.09 a kwh when powered with NG, which is what power here in NC cost.... So no savings here. I beleive in CA the price is $.15 - $.21 a kwh....

The big thing with Bloom is it can run on just about anything..... Will there be one in every house in 10 years.... no (I do not see the cost dropping below $1500 per KW). But what I do see is substations with larger units providing power to communities.... in 20+ years.

I disagree with you 100%, i see it happening because we have the right person in the the White House now!

Plus if Google went for it, it will happen i can see a huge market for it.

The USA HAS A LOT OF NATURAL GAS, I CAN SEE SMALL TOWNS

MAKING THERE OWN POWER CHEAPER, AS LONG AS THEY HAVE A FUEL SOURCE

HHO BLASTER
02-28-2010, 07:16 PM
drop the political bull$hit. Obama is no different than mccain or bush. Dont even go there.

"i can see small towns making there own power cheaper"

that is basicly what i said:

"substations with larger units providing power to communities"

sorry but obama, is not tied to big oil like the gop is

HHO BLASTER
03-01-2010, 10:45 AM
http://my.democrats.org/page/content/exxon-mccain/

If you voted for OLD MAN, AND CRAZY WOMAN YOUR $%#@& NUTS

RustyLugNut
03-01-2010, 01:10 PM
http://my.democrats.org/page/content/exxon-mccain/

If you voted for OLD MAN, AND CRAZY WOMAN YOUR $%#@& NUTS

I am religious. I am political. And I am certifiably crazy as my wife will attest. And I voted for the man in office, and root for the success of my country no matter who is in office. And I root for the success of humanity. But, I will not shove these personal beliefs down another persons throat. It is disruptive and unproductive. I don't allow it in my business, or personal life or public discourse.

I do the work that is set before me because that is my responsibility. I will not be distracted.

Blaster, you and your ilk are poor workmen in our goal to produce a workable HHO device and to find where it fits in the grand scheme of things - because you get distracted by petty issues. You think they are important, but really, they are so only in your mind, because the world doesn't follow suit and yet runs just fine. Yes, there are socio-political issues that warrant work, but not on these forums where the work is narrow and clear - use HHO or anything we can devise to reduce our personal use of oil and hopefully extend that to the rest of the world.

Your arrogance is becoming odorous.

Get over it people!

HHO BLASTER
03-01-2010, 03:32 PM
I am religious. I am political. And I am certifiably crazy as my wife will attest. And I voted for the man in office, and root for the success of my country no matter who is in office. And I root for the success of humanity. But, I will not shove these personal beliefs down another persons throat. It is disruptive and unproductive. I don't allow it in my business, or personal life or public discourse.

I do the work that is set before me because that is my responsibility. I will not be distracted.

Blaster, you and your ilk are poor workmen in our goal to produce a workable HHO device and to find where it fits in the grand scheme of things - because you get distracted by petty issues. You think they are important, but really, they are so only in your mind, because the world doesn't follow suit and yet runs just fine. Yes, there are socio-political issues that warrant work, but not on these forums where the work is narrow and clear - use HHO or anything we can devise to reduce our personal use of oil and hopefully extend that to the rest of the world.

Your arrogance is becoming odorous.

Get over it people!

I make a great Generator but HHO does not give me enough to make a difference in the truck

i built the same one STU made, in fact i cut the plates for him, check out STU's HHO videos

RustyLugNut
03-01-2010, 05:14 PM
I make a great Generator but HHO does not give me enough to make a difference in the truck

i built the same one STU made, in fact i cut the plates for him, check out STU's HHO videos

If your generator is good, all you need is to make it work in your vehicle. That is my problem with all the experimenting on this forum - no concerted understanding on HOW it works so that we can move to the making it work. I skim these forums to glean tidbits of experience that can prove valuable, but I see a lot of wasted repetition of work that already has proven itself or is a dead end.

But maybe I am just wasting my time here since this is an "open forum" where everyone is an avowed expert at HHO (seemingly).

What do we already know?

Dry cells with nickel alloy electrodes in a KOH electrolyte give us the basis for an efficient and reproducible generator.

We can control current, and thus production of HHO by electronic means that several members are pursuing.

We know how to size the generator and the developing electronics for any situation short of the "running my car on pure HHO generated on board".

The biggest shortfall of these forums is the lack of knowledge concerning the application of HHO in augmenting our vehicle's fuel systems. To be sure people are fooling with EFIEs, O2 extenders, MAP and MAF sensors, and yet, the results are all over the place because we don't know why these modifications work at times, and fail in others.

This thread is supposed to be news about fuel cell technology, but there needs to be a way to make our efforts more concerted and less diffused.

The first item to tackle is why HHO works. And not just the sweeping statements of "it improves combustion", or "it accelerates combustion", or "it makes combustion more efficient". Multi-processing this question first allows us to move on to a broader understanding and allows us to apply the technology more broadly.

HHO BLASTER
03-01-2010, 09:39 PM
If your generator is good, all you need is to make it work in your vehicle. That is my problem with all the experimenting on this forum - no concerted understanding on HOW it works so that we can move to the making it work. I skim these forums to glean tidbits of experience that can prove valuable, but I see a lot of wasted repetition of work that already has proven itself or is a dead end.

But maybe I am just wasting my time here since this is an "open forum" where everyone is an avowed expert at HHO (seemingly).

What do we already know?

Dry cells with nickel alloy electrodes in a KOH electrolyte give us the basis for an efficient and reproducible generator.

We can control current, and thus production of HHO by electronic means that several members are pursuing.

We know how to size the generator and the developing electronics for any situation short of the "running my car on pure HHO generated on board".

The biggest shortfall of these forums is the lack of knowledge concerning the application of HHO in augmenting our vehicle's fuel systems. To be sure people are fooling with EFIEs, O2 extenders, MAP and MAF sensors, and yet, the results are all over the place because we don't know why these modifications work at times, and fail in others.

This thread is supposed to be news about fuel cell technology, but there needs to be a way to make our efforts more concerted and less diffused.

The first item to tackle is why HHO works. And not just the sweeping statements of "it improves combustion", or "it accelerates combustion", or "it makes combustion more efficient". Multi-processing this question first allows us to move on to a broader understanding and allows us to apply the technology more broadly.

I gave up on seeing it work in the engine, Larry has put more time and money

into HHO then anyone i know, and you can ask him how he feels