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oxyhydrogen
04-06-2010, 08:12 PM
Recently, I have been using distilled white vinegar in my dry cell and it isn't pulling nearly enough amps for any decent production. My cell is 13 plates set up as "+NNNNN-NNNNN+". I don't like the idea of using a corrosive substance such as lye. What is a non-corrosive electrolyte, besides baking soda, that I could use? All suggestions are appreciated. :D

oicu812
04-06-2010, 11:09 PM
trisodium phosphate available at home improvement stores in the paint department is the only thing that comes to mind thats less toxic than Koh or Naoh. its the main ingrediant in automatic dishwashing detergent. its also used for cleaning outdoor decks. its still a poison but considered less toxic. Nothing beats Koh though. An intresting side note... if you add cobalt nitrate to the mix production improves greatly. its not too expensive and available through united nueclear

abe58
04-18-2010, 08:38 AM
You may also want to try lime Koolade.You might have to remove a netural, but it does work. I tried 12 packs in a quart of water.

hoover1
08-03-2010, 09:58 AM
using any thing other than standard KOH +NaOH, results in some side effect, wierd gases put out, degrades into something, as toxic ,or worse. also unknown/unpredictable/ unstable, quality/quantity of actual HHO gas production. experimentation is great, but serious tests all seem to point back to the standard.

Farrahday
12-05-2010, 04:13 PM
using any thing other than standard KOH +NaOH, results in some side effect, wierd gases put out, degrades into something, as toxic ,or worse. also unknown/unpredictable/ unstable, quality/quantity of actual HHO gas production. experimentation is great, but serious tests all seem to point back to the standard.

Not so. In the past my chemical of choice to be used as an electrolyte has been anhydrous NaSO4, because not only does it readily ionises in water into sodium and sulphate ions, and plays no part in reacting at the electrodes, but it is also very safe to handle. And being a mother with a young child safety is always an issue.

Potassium Hydroxide is the very best electrolyte in terms of its tendency to more readily ionise in water, but as we all know is quite caustic and so require greater handling care.

Roland Jacques
12-06-2010, 06:45 AM
Not so. In the past my chemical of choice to be used as an electrolyte has been anhydrous NaSO4, because not only does it readily ionises in water into sodium and sulphate ions, and plays no part in reacting at the electrodes, but it is also very safe to handle. And being a mother with a young child safety is always an issue.

Potassium Hydroxide is the very best electrolyte in terms of its tendency to more readily ionise in water, but as we all know is quite caustic and so require greater handling care.
Farrahday, I assume this is a Acid. What concentration is best? If you could estimate how does it stack up to KOH in percentages?

Farrahday
12-06-2010, 07:17 AM
Farrahday, I assume this is a Acid. What concentration is best? If you could estimate how does it stack up to KOH in percentages?

No, it's an alkaline. I only use the stuff on occasions when needs be. Whenever possible I prefer to design my cells so that I get the required results from straight tap water.

Everything comes at a cost, and not many people realise it, but there is a perceivable cost to overall efficiency when using an electrolyte as opposed to plain water, so the less additive you can get away with the better. I use NaSO4 just to dope cells that I want to give slightly more current, so have never saturated the water with this compound. If I used KOH, I would need less of this compound per given volume of water than when using NaSO4, for any given current, but it's all really academic as I never use any great amount.

Do I take it that many of you folk are simply doping the cell with a given percentage of electrolytic compound... if so, why?

The logical thing to do is to dope the cell with just enough electrolytic compound to provide the required current draw only, and do away with the PWM. If need be use an thermostat to automatically cut off the power supply to the electrolyser if the electrolytic solution gets too hot.

Roland Jacques
12-06-2010, 08:20 AM
I have no experience with any cell performing will with zero electrolyte. My experience is not all tap water is equal. So while some can be very conductive others are not at all. I use RODI water which is basically not conductive at all. I would like to no how you build cells that work with zero electrolyte? :)


I do agree that tailoring the electrolyte to your cell is best. I think doing that when the cell is cold, then you get desired amps, but as the cell warms the PWM keeps it where you want it. That way the performance is close to the same through out it's operation.


A lot of folk do like to run a maximum electrolyte concentration for KOH that's 28%. So yeah, knowing the maximum productive concentration of NaSO4 could be useful. Why they do this is has to do with best conductivity... But i have not seen the cost to efficiency when using stronger electrolyte when testing the brute force ability of a cell. Mind you most folks build their cell to run at these high concentrations.

I want to experiment with a variable PWM that follow engine RPM so it increases output as RPM raise so max concentration is good for this also.

Farrahday
12-07-2010, 07:44 AM
I have no experience with any cell performing will with zero electrolyte.

It all revolves around Ohms law, I= V/R. Increasing the electrode surface area and reducing the distance between electrodes are two ways of increasing the current for any given voltage. This can then be further enhanced by adding cells in parallel to the original set up. Obviously there will be design constraints as to how far you can take this approach before you need to dope the cell with an ionic compound to get the required current, but doping the cell should be the last measure.

I'm not saying that there is not a need for electrolytes, in standard Faraday Electrolysers there certainly is, it's just that you do not need to max out the concentration. Remember that the cations and anions of a preferred electrolyte do not take part in the reactions at the electrodes, but they are still drawn to them. What do you think happens to them? Well, they can polarise the electrodes, and this is one way that non-reactive electrolytes reduce efficiency of a given cell.

Mind you, I think I probably have a very different approach to this science than many here, as the limitations of standard Faraday Electrolysers as performance boosters has never really appealed to me. Inspired by the work of Puharich and Meyer, I've been looking at ways of surpassing Faraday by utilising a combination of other methods and mechanisms, which has involved much in-depth study of the electrochemical reactions occurring.

myoldyourgold
12-07-2010, 08:28 AM
Farrah, The search for an ideal electrolyte in my case has nothing to do with increasing current or its caustic effects on things. It has to do with the type of gas that is produced. People tend to forget that we are dealing with a computer in the current ICE that has limits. My aim is to find methods to get to the limits (leanest possible) of the current programing and maintain it there without using any additional electronics. (EFFIE etc) This can be down by controlling the type, and quantity of gas that is produced. Very small changes seam to make a big difference in my testing. I am not a chemist and all of this is way above my pay rate but I try and make up for that with long hours and lots of testing. Doping the electrolyte can yield much larger gains regardless of the type of reactor. This does not mean you shouldn't strive to build the most efficient reactor. The formula is power in resulting in what looks like more power out when actually it is not, just a more efficient use of the same power.

Farrahday
12-08-2010, 12:49 PM
MOYG


It has to do with the type of gas that is produced.

I do not understand this statement. If the electrolytic compounds added to water play no part in the reaction at the electrodes, you only get oxygen and hydrogen produced, so what do you mean by 'type of gas'?

I thought that the EFIE was designed to solve these problems - why make life more difficult for yourself by not employing such a device?

We're lucky in that our engines are from 1970's and as such we don't have to worry about, ECUs and fuel sensors and fancy electronics. But I'm sure I'd be looking at using an EFIE if we needed to fool the sensors in a modern engine.

astrocady
12-08-2010, 03:14 PM
<snip>
If the electrolytic compounds added to water play no part in the reaction at the electrodes, you only get oxygen and hydrogen produced

This is not true with all electrolytes -- really is is only true of KOH. If you use baking soda as an electrolyte, the gas coming our of the reactor will contain hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide actually comprise about 30% of the gas. If you are using anything with salt in it you will be, in addition to hydrogen and oxygen, your cell will be producing chlorine and chloride gases.

myoldyourgold
12-08-2010, 05:57 PM
I do not understand this statement. If the electrolytic compounds added to water play no part in the reaction at the electrodes, you only get oxygen and hydrogen produced, so what do you mean by 'type of gas'?

I thought that the EFIE was designed to solve these problems - why make life more difficult for yourself by not employing such a device?

We're lucky in that our engines are from 1970's and as such we don't have to worry about, ECUs and fuel sensors and fancy electronics. But I'm sure I'd be looking at using an EFIE if we needed to fool the sensors in a modern engine.

Since I am not a chemist I will not get into the subject of the types of gases that are produced with different additives or chemicals used as electrolyte. I can assure you with a Google search you would be much wiser than I am on the subject. Astrocady has given you an excellent example. I do know what kind of gas comes out of what I use which is proprietary at the moment and still being tested. MY object is to slow down the flame speed with out giving up anything and still getting a clean complete burn, which is not leaner than the ECU allows. This also needs to be done on the 70's cars to get the max out of everything. HHO has such a fast flame speed you can't take full advantage of it unless you slow it down. This is why most experimenters only get 10 to 25 percent gain with even an efficient reactor which most aren't.

EFIE's are illegal in many states. None that I know of have been approved. And I will not go there at the moment other than to test with when necessary. What others do is there business. I personally will not encourage anyone to brake the law. There are many ways to get around the problem and keep it legal. Electrolyte doping is just one.

Farrahday
12-09-2010, 04:28 AM
This is not true with all electrolytes -- really is is only true of KOH. If you use baking soda as an electrolyte, the gas coming our of the reactor will contain hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide actually comprise about 30% of the gas. If you are using anything with salt in it you will be, in addition to hydrogen and oxygen, your cell will be producing chlorine and chloride gases.

Hi Astro, I know it's not true of all electrolyties, but I did say 'if the electrolytic compounds play no part in the reaction you will only get oxygen and hydrogen', and by this I was assuming that you would be using a substance that does not react at the electrodes.

Who in their right mind would use sodium chloride or baking soda?

KOH is the best basic electrolyte in terms of its efficiency because it ionises more readily than anything else, but it's certainly not the only electrolytic compound that does not react at the electrodes. The difference between good and bad - or rather, strong and weak - electrolytic compounds is simply their ability to dissociate into ions when added to water. Some substances, like KOH ionises nearly completely, whereas a portion of poorer electrolytes will remain as neutral molecules, and hence the substance is less effective as an electrolyte. But that is all.

Of course though, it is often far more complicated than we imagine anyway. For example, Sodium Chloride as an electrolyte does not always result in Chlorine gas and no Oxygen. Under certain conditions oxygen too can be evolved, but this has to do with specific electrolyte concentrations. Likewise if Chlorine is evolved rather than oxygen, then not all of it evolves as a gas. It is very soluble in water (think swimming pools) and some will react with the water to produce Hydrochloric acid and Hypochlorous acid.

Furthermore, in most cases, even if some of the electrolyte were to react at the electrode, it is such an incredibly small percentage as to be insignificant and certainly not worth losing sleep over.

The chemistry can get quite complex, but that's the fun part, trying to figure out what is happening and why? :)

One thing for sure though, if you know the chemical make-up of the substance you are using as an electrolyte, then there are only so many options as to the gases that can possibly evolve. It's definately worth getting to grips with the electrochemisty as it arms you with knowledge that can help you get a true insight into the reactions.

I've seen before, people talking about electrolysers evolving all sorts of exotic gases, and rather bizarrely sometimes involving elements that are not even present! :confused:

Take NaOH, Sodium Hydroxide, Na+ and OH-... what possible horrible gases can we get evolving from this electrolyte? Answer: Nothing!

The Sodium ion Na+ is going nowhere as it's competing with the much more reactive hydrogen H+ of the water molecule, and the hydroxide ion OH- is the same as what we get from the ionised water anyway.

The other thing people seem worried about is the caustic solution getting into the engine. Well there really should be no chance of this because if the cells get hot, all that is evaporating is water. Think about it, you boil a pan of salt water and eventually you will be left with the salt residue at the bottom of the pan - it does not boil off with the water.

It all makes for a very interesting subject doesn't it. :)

D.O.G
12-09-2010, 06:04 AM
The other thing people seem worried about is the caustic solution getting into the engine. Well there really should be no chance of this because if the cells get hot, all that is evaporating is water. Think about it, you boil a pan of salt water and eventually you will be left with the salt residue at the bottom of the pan - it does not boil off with the water.

It all makes for a very interesting subject doesn't it. :)

Farrah,
I think that the "electrolyte in the engine" issue isn't caused by steam, but caused by lower temperature water vapour, which contains traces of electroyte.
I know that if I run with the top off my tank, I can see a small cloud of vapour. I run a couple of stainless steel wool scrubbers to control this.

Pete.

myoldyourgold
12-09-2010, 08:14 AM
Pete you are right about the water vapor. The KOH is carried by the bubbles and when run through a clean water bubbler the bubbles are scrubbed on the outside but not the inside. This is why it is important to make very fine bubbles in the bubbler to keep as much as possible of the KOH from making it into the engine. It is not the KOH that harms anything but the process of striping the natural oxide off the aluminum and thus allows the moisture/water to have a strong reaction with the aluminum that will destroy it given enough time. There are lots of pictures posted showing the results. I believe there are some on this forum. To be very sure you can use two bubblers one with water and one with a mild acid to neutralize the KOH. I am testing a mixture in the second bubbler that does that and more with the vapor it carries out.

Farrahday
12-09-2010, 11:03 AM
MOYG

I have to say I'm finding this all very odd.


the bubbles are scrubbed on the outside but not the inside What? :confused:

How can KOH be carried by a bubble? A bubble is just our required gas in the confines of a liquid film, but the bubble should 'pop' as it leaves the surface of the liquid anyway, so leaving just our 'dry' gas. And if it doesn't sending it initially through a mesh grid/ss wool trap and then through a fine bubbler will do the trick. Furthermore, due to surface tension, bigger bubbles will collapse far easier than the smaller bubbles which are surely more capable of leaving the surface of the liquid and travelling further before collapsing.

Pete, I think by 'lower temperature water vapour' you mean micro-droplets of the solution, as water vapour is of course an invisible gas. Nevertheless, this too will also be effectively filtered out by passing through a ss wool trap and fine bubbler. And let's face it, for safety reasons alone, everyone should be using at least one bubbler and a stainless steel wool trap!

MOYG, do you really think doping a bubbler with an acid is a good idea? Aren't you simply introducing another possible source of engine corrosion?

Think about it, only when all the acid is neutralised by any tiny amounts of alkaline, will this solution be unreactive. Until then you have gases now bubbling through and possibly taking acid into your engine. To my mind you've simply swapped possible alkaline corrosion for possible acid corrosion and made life more complicated for yourself in the process! :confused:

These photos of corrosion you mention, are they all from electrolysers that are all unnecessarily doped up to the eyeballs by any chance?

Keep the electrolyte to a minimum, use a fine mesh filter, a SS wool trap and good fine bubbler and you will have nothing to worry about. You could also opt for a less corrosive electrolyte. I.e., use slightly more of a weaker electrolyte to reach the required current draw.

myoldyourgold
12-09-2010, 11:35 PM
How can KOH be carried by a bubble? A bubble is just our required gas in the confines of a liquid film, but the bubble should 'pop' as it leaves the surface of the liquid anyway, so leaving just our 'dry' gas.

If that was exactly what happens then there would be no need for the bubbler as far as a scrubber goes. Just use something to brake the bubbles. This is very easy to test. Just take a piece of aluminum and direct the gas on to it. In time you will see what the problem is. Even what looks like dry gas to the eye does not mean it is dry and electrolyte free. The liquid film around the gas has an out side and an inside. Outside gets scrubbed but inside does not. When the bubble bursts there is micro droplets of electrolyte that have to be dealt with. It is not much but it is there. Testing by many have gone through all this many times before.


MOYG, do you really think doping a bubbler with an acid is a good idea? Aren't you simply introducing another possible source of engine corrosion?


Simple answer yes to the first ? and no the the 2nd ?. Normal engine oil is acidic and does no harm to the engine. There are may mild acidic chemicals that are helpful to the function of an engine which both lubricate, clean and some aid in the combustion process and are used in the tuning process. There is plenty of evidence of damaged aluminum parts because of an ineffective or non existing bubbler. It has been proven that the longer the bubble travels through the bubbler the cleaner it gets. Longer bubblers work better than short fat ones even if both have the same amount of water. A micro screen / stainless wool collects KOH and unless it is serviced on a regular bases it starts plugging up and the HHO going through starts picking up the KOH. I doubt that there is any system that gets it all out. Neutralizing it I believe is the only way.

In your testing what kind of mileage do you get and how long have you run a car using HHO? What design of bubbler do you use? You seam to have good knowledge of the subject maybe you could share a little of your real life experience with us. I am always looking for ways to improve my designs.

Farrahday
12-10-2010, 06:55 AM
I see, it's not really about gas is it, as KOH, K+ or OH- do not leave the electrolytic solution as gases. It's all about some of the solution atomising an so (in liquid form) travelling with our gas to the engine. Your inside and outside bubble thing is what confuses me, but let's forget that.

This is the price people pay for using an unnecessary high concentration of caustic electrolyte.

Bubblers were originally incorporated to prevent flashbacks more than scrubbing the gas, and of course for those of us using low concentrations of less caustic electrolytes we do not have this corrosive issue to worry about. If you constantly have the solution clogging up mesh and traps then there is a serious design fault as you will obviously need to constantly replenish the electrolyte, which you should not really have to do.

I have used aquarium bubblers such as these in the past

http://www.porex.com/by_function/by_function_diffusion/aquarium_bubbler.cfm

and not had them clog up.

I read some of the posts on engine corrosion here and was gobsmacked to find that some people were not even using a bubbler or flame trap of any kind! Blimey! :eek:

If normal engine oil is acidic, in theory at least, it should go some way to neutralising any basic caustic solution that reaches the engine. On the other hand an acid solution would increase the acidity... wouldn't it.

Curious, why don't you simply stop using KOH and use something less corrosive?

My work does not evolve around these 'dry cells', which I believe most of you are employing, and I'm a tube gal rather than plates. I never found hydroboosters to be very satisfactory and often - even if well designed, and without the problems of corrosive electrolytes - still more trouble than they were worth.

A friend of mine builds vehicle electrolysers for a living and can verify claims of improved MPG, but the electronics involved in fabricating a reliable commercial unit that meets all safety regs is quite extraordinary. If you care to take a look, this is his web site: http://www.thecell.net/home.html

As for me, well you can find me here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=387.msg7606;topicseen#msg7606

I've attached a photo of an old multicell unit I made some years ago, so you can see the type of unit that I've been playing with.

myoldyourgold
12-10-2010, 11:19 AM
Thank you Farrah. I wish you all the success possible in your endeavor. As far as The Cell (TM) goes all I can say is it is a professionally put together setup but results are behind the current technology and the company is in some serious trouble. I personally will stay away form all that.

I use an aquarium diffuser too. http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1560/Porous-Plastic-Diffusers/air%20stone/4 These are cleanable if necessary even with acids but if your setup has a good magnetic filter on it, and everything is done right, it will not be necessary.

I personally do not use an extremely concentrated electrolyte but still opt to use a second bubbler which aids in neutralizing any alkaline that might make it through but its main purpose is to assist in the combustion process. This is complicated and something that is still being tested and not up for discussion at the moment. There is the Winter problem with just plane water too that had to be addressed. In -40F you tend to freeze things up. LOL. I use no water in the winter. Lots of things to consider and the bubbler is actually almost as complex as the reactor itself.

Great picture of your tub setup. Nice work. I am interested in your findings when you can report on them.

Farrahday
12-11-2010, 06:32 AM
Lots of things to consider and the bubbler is actually almost as complex as the reactor itself.

Yep, the thing I've found is that the idea and design stage is quite easy compared to the often unanticipated problems and complications that arise in actually constructing a working model. :(

Regarding freezing, I should imagine that dry cells are much more prone to problems due to their design. I used ordinary car anti-freeze in a wet cell I employed for a time, with seemingly no ill-effects.

I have to consider this with my new designs, but due to the fact that I will be employing cavitation and plasma discharges, I'm reluctant to use additives which under these conditions may just react unpredictably. :)

myoldyourgold
12-11-2010, 08:48 AM
Regarding freezing, I should imagine that dry cells are much more prone to problems due to their design. I used ordinary car anti-freeze in a wet cell I employed for a time, with seemingly no ill-effects.

I have to consider this with my new designs, but due to the fact that I will be employing cavitation and plasma discharges, I'm reluctant to use additives which under these conditions may just react unpredictably.

Surprisingly I have found no difference between "dry cells" and "wet cells" (I hate those terms) except the "dry cell" thaws out much faster. I have tested both and with the right concentration of electrolyte things only get slushy. The "dry cell" starts producing more gas faster at least in my testing and design. I am sure with different designs the opposite could be true.

Cavitation and plasma discharges are above my pay rate at the moment but as far as doping the bubbler, I doubt there will be any difference. Now electrolyte that is a different story and I would have to agree with you on that.

I have been following the development of the use of magnets which I have been using in my system as filters and gas conditioners for some time. I believe that the proper placement of strong permanent magnets would and based on testing done by others, does enhance the production of HHO. I also see how it can work as a pump increasing the circulation also increasing production. Testing by others is going on at this moment. Some tests I did in the past were not convulsive but I am going to have another look at things based on the current information which looks promising.

Stevo
12-12-2010, 09:08 PM
On the topic of STEAM:

With the right parameters, you won't produce a visibly detectable amount of STEAM from my latest experience. It's all about electrolyte concentration and overall cell design. I believe STEAM is caused by current leakage, improper current density (overdriving), plate spacing being too small and the ever-so-controversial electrolyte to water ratio.

Here are some good parameters to try:

.5 amps / sq. in current density
1/4" or greater plate spacing
no holes in your plates
28% KOH in distilled or deionized water
don't hook the system up to a vacuum line

PWM or brute force it doesn't matter. I get ZERO STEAM.

Farrahday
12-13-2010, 12:59 PM
Here's the thing though Stevo, water vapour is a gas (H2Og) and it is invisible, so you won't see it. Only when it condenses into liquid form will it become visible. So you are not seeing water vapour.

Aside from turning into gas when boiling at 100 deg C, water will vapourise at much lower temperatures when exposed to pressure reductions or indeed at altitude. And there will also be localised hotspots within the cell, whereby temperatures will be hot enough to vapoursie the water, but not producing enough heat to show throughout the solution.

From what I can tell its not water vapour that is the problem anyway, but atomised liquid electrolyte solution that gets carried into the combustion chamber along with the gases.

Stevo
12-13-2010, 02:50 PM
Here's the thing though Stevo, water vapour is a gas (H2Og) and it is invisible, so you won't see it....

From what I can tell its not water vapour that is the problem anyway, but atomised liquid electrolyte solution that gets carried into the combustion chamber along with the gases.

Ok, so I got technical and changed "water vapor" to "steam" so not to confuse anyone. But seriously:

Atomize: "The process whereby a bulk liquid is transformed into a multiplicity of small drops."

Doesn't a hair spray bottle "atomize" liquid? Somehow we can still see this in the air. How could liquid electrolyte be any different in this respect?

Farrahday
12-13-2010, 06:16 PM
Atomize: "The process whereby a bulk liquid is transformed into a multiplicity of small drops."

Doesn't a hair spray bottle "atomize" liquid? Somehow we can still see this in the air. How could liquid electrolyte be any different in this respect?

Yes it does, and no, it's not different! This is exactly what I'm suggesting you are getting, and why there is still electrolyte getting to the engine.

Some confusion of terms here I think. Water vapour and steam are two terms for the same thing - water gas, or water in gaseous state. As such, you can't see either. But often 'steam' is incorrectly used to describe the visible mist which is the gas condensing into liquid form.

An electrolyser will be like a kettle to a certain extent, in that as the water boils off it turns into an invisible gas, but once it starts to cool (which is very quickly in ambient air) it condenses to form a mist, or condensation on a cool surface, both of which we can see. That is, what you see coming out of a kettle is not the gas (water vapour or steam), but liquid water due to the gas cooling and so changing phase. However, this accounts for how water might reach ther combustion chamber, but not the electrolyte, which can only reach the combustion chamber as atomised (liquid) solution.

Stevo
12-14-2010, 07:55 AM
Yes it does, and no, it's not different! This is exactly what I'm suggesting you are getting, and why there is still electrolyte getting to the engine.

Some confusion of terms here I think. Water vapour and steam are two terms for the same thing - water gas, or water in gaseous state. As such, you can't see either. But often 'steam' is incorrectly used to describe the visible mist which is the gas condensing into liquid form.

An electrolyser will be like a kettle to a certain extent, in that as the water boils off it turns into an invisible gas, but once it starts to cool (which is very quickly in ambient air) it condenses to form a mist, or condensation on a cool surface, both of which we can see. That is, what you see coming out of a kettle is not the gas (water vapour or steam), but liquid water due to the gas cooling and so changing phase. However, this accounts for how water might reach ther combustion chamber, but not the electrolyte, which can only reach the combustion chamber as atomised (liquid) solution.

Wow, just wow.

astrocady
12-14-2010, 09:07 AM
My electrolizer starts emitting vapor clouds within 30 seconds of starting. And by the way, my cells run cool. I have always postulated that this vapor cloud was the result of the "mechanical" action of the gas bubbling through the electrolyte then those bubbles popping within the electrolizer. All very similar to the steamless (sometime called cool mist) vaporizers they sell in drug stores.

Stevo
12-14-2010, 01:33 PM
All I have to do is drop my KOH concentration down to ~10% and instantly I get [insert whatever you want to call it here] coming from the output of the bubbler in my system. Raise it back to 28% and SHABAAAM the [insert whatever you want to call it here] is gone. Forgot to mention that I sprinkled some magical fairy dust in there too which probably helped out a bit too. :o

Farrahday
12-14-2010, 02:43 PM
My electrolizer starts emitting vapor clouds within 30 seconds of starting. And by the way, my cells run cool. I have always postulated that this vapor cloud was the result of the "mechanical" action of the gas bubbling through the electrolyte then those bubbles popping within the electrolizer. All very similar to the steamless (sometime called cool mist) vaporizers they sell in drug stores.

I think this is likely a very good explanation, because any water boiling off due to localised hotspots or even just evaporating due air currents and pressure variations will be only pure water vapour and hence even if this reaches the combustion chamber it won't cause the corrosion were are seeing.

Only tiny airbourne droplets of the electrolytic solution as a whole (H2O + K+ & OH-) that are carried along with the gases can possibly cause the corrosion in the engine.

kcarring
12-18-2010, 11:17 PM
take an acrylic tube or even a large (but clear) plastic see through bottle of any sort. Cut it in half. Put a humidistat inside, and plumb a nipple to be able to attacth your HHO line in. Reconstruct it so it is sealed again to a great degree anyway, with tape. Sit it with one end open on a seat of dessicant until the relatively humidity reaches about 10%. Slide it off the dessicant and open up your HHO flow. the HHO will displace the air and push the other air out the small crack that are left. Let it run 5 or ten minutes to flood the area. Wait. If the humidistat goes way up - you got water. Plausible?

pwteng
04-22-2011, 07:40 PM
my generator is not set up as common parallel they are in series so the electrolyte plays a big part in the amperage just like a battery and if there isnt any then the electricity stops
its not my design but it has a built in safety if it runs dry or low on water it just stops working like turning it off

pwteng
04-22-2011, 08:06 PM
. Normal engine oil is acidic and does no harm to the engine.
i gotta call B.S. on this one:mad:
acid levels are the main reason for changing your oil
do a litmus test on oil some day when you test a sample they check for ph levels"hello thats acid" presence of anti freeze and iron content to name a few

myoldyourgold
04-23-2011, 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoldyourgold View Post
. Normal engine oil is acidic and does no harm to the engine.

i gotta call B.S. on this one
acid levels are the main reason for changing your oil
do a litmus test on oil some day when you test a sample they check for ph levels"hello thats acid" presence of anti freeze and iron content to name a few

Daniel, you are right about clean fresh engine oil is a base and it is that way to help counter the acids that are formed in the combustion process that make it into the oil. An ASTM test for acid levels and carbon etc., in the oil is used to know when to change oil especially in commercial large diesel engines. In very large diesel engines they have an on board filtering system the cleans the oil back to near original state with no need to change it. In automobiles no one does these tests and you will find acid in all oil after some use admittedly very little but the longer you run the more there is. The acid if left to build up can harm the engine. I can say that small amounts do no harm.

My point is just like oil is formulated to be on the base side to neutralize acid my second bubbler in my diesels are slightly acidic to neutralize the base. What is carried into the engine and consumed in the combustion process has proven not to increase the acids in the oil, no alkaline damage to any aluminum in the intake, and a reduction of pollutants in the exhaust. In fact the oil lasts longer with less acid and carbon build up with HHO and my system than normal operation. This system is still being tested and refined.

Some times I do not explain things in great depth and admit this is one of them and can see why you took it as bovine fecal mater. I hope this clears this up.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-13-2011, 11:28 PM
Recently, I have been using distilled white vinegar in my dry cell and it isn't pulling nearly enough amps for any decent production. My cell is 13 plates set up as "+NNNNN-NNNNN+". I don't like the idea of using a corrosive substance such as lye. What is a non-corrosive electrolyte, besides baking soda, that I could use? All suggestions are appreciated. :D

NCE is a great alternative for caustic for those who want a safer more stable substance for an electrolyte. Koh is crap, nce has no worries about skin contact and no "bubbler" needed since it will not harm metal.

Remember that NCE is not a consumable. You should be able to use it indefinitely or for as long as it is contained within the reservoir. NCE is not affected by the hydrogen separation process but acts instead as a catalyst making the process work more effectively. Maintaining dry gas output from your system will improve your results and maintain your NCE in the system avoiding the need to add more.

Go to my site for more info www.plasmafuelsystem.com or

direct link here http://www.jeffotto.com/store/Non-Caustic-Electrolyte-2oz.html

keiththevp
06-14-2011, 03:19 AM
We need to see it in action to prove it's efficiency as well we need to know the properties relating to freezing?

myoldyourgold
06-14-2011, 10:50 AM
If you go through the number of things that are offered on the web site and know anything about the background you would not waste your time. That is not saying it does not work but proof like keiththevp has suggested would be only the first step. Already there is information on the internet that it does not work. This is not proof but one stroke against it. Independent testing by someone who is reliable and not connected or paid needs to be done. Not worth my time.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-17-2011, 03:02 AM
We need to see it in action to prove it's efficiency as well we need to know the properties relating to freezing?

The nce I sell can be used with isoprophyl alcohol although even without... the water will warm in a few minutes at idle when the resevoir is frozen solid. After you get done wiping the snow off or scraping the windows it's usually loosening up.

I found a company that converts cars to hydrogen hydride that wont explode but it's $10,000 www.unitednuclear.com and it will probably two years before they are ready to go into production.

As opposed to most hho cells and install out the door at $1200. Upgrade to the picc is $3000 will give 100 mpg to any gas engine.

myoldyourgold
06-17-2011, 01:21 PM
Upgrade to the picc is $3000 will give 100 mpg to any gas engine.

I have taught two of my cows to fly, too. LOL :D

Farrahday
06-18-2011, 02:12 PM
NCE is a great alternative for caustic for those who want a safer more stable substance for an electrolyte. Koh is crap, nce has no worries about skin contact and no "bubbler" needed since it will not harm metal.

Remember that NCE is not a consumable. You should be able to use it indefinitely or for as long as it is contained within the reservoir. NCE is not affected by the hydrogen separation process but acts instead as a catalyst making the process work more effectively. Maintaining dry gas output from your system will improve your results and maintain your NCE in the system avoiding the need to add more.

Go to my site for more info www.plasmafuelsystem.com or

direct link here http://www.jeffotto.com/store/Non-Caustic-Electrolyte-2oz.html

What exactly is your non-caustic electrolyte? And why if it is so non-caustic does it say on the bottle, 'in the event of bodily contact flush with water'?

I'm no supporter of KOH or NaOH, but neither of them get used up in the process - chemically, that is. It is simply that many people here saturate their water with it and then heat the electrolysrer to a point where liquid droplets of water with the KOH in suspension also reach the engine. If only water vapour left the electrolyser then the electrolytic compound would not get used up. Your so-called NCE would be no different as these folk don't use a dry gas. And the main reason for a bubbler, and why it is necessary, is to prevent a back-flash and hence the electrolyser possibly exploding.

Nobody in their right mind would use an electrolyte such as yours without knowing exactly what it was. For all anyone knows it could be saltwater!

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-20-2011, 03:35 AM
What exactly is your non-caustic electrolyte? And why if it is so non-caustic does it say on the bottle, 'in the event of bodily contact flush with water'?

I'm no supporter of KOH or NaOH, but neither of them get used up in the process - chemically, that is. It is simply that many people here saturate their water with it and then heat the electrolysrer to a point where liquid droplets of water with the KOH in suspension also reach the engine. If only water vapour left the electrolyser then the electrolytic compound would not get used up. Your so-called NCE would be no different as these folk don't use a dry gas. And the main reason for a bubbler, and why it is necessary, is to prevent a back-flash and hence the electrolyser possibly exploding.

Nobody in their right mind would use an electrolyte such as yours without knowing exactly what it was. For all anyone knows it could be saltwater!

Does coke or dr pepper tell you what natural flavors are or quantity?

It's silky to wash off when I get it on my fingers, but it doesn't burn the skin off like koh or naoh. I get 5 lpm, I have 265,875 miles on my 06 corolla and I've been using it since June 2008, and I get 65 mpg hwy up from 30 stock. I had a cam shaft sensor checked and the engine was clean, no sludge, saltwater wouldn't produce that result. I don't use a bubbler because there is no need since the cell is in the trunk not in the hood. It's not saltwater, there is no precipitate in the bottle. The dry gas is produced, not used. When the cap is off the resevoir, the vapor stream is 2ft high when it's not windy. Feel free to buy a bottle and test it if you want. With the hho cell I have a vaporizer on the fuel line which gave me 10 mpg hwy and the hho volo chip that gave me another 10 mpg hwy

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-20-2011, 03:44 AM
Cows to fly wow? Did the epa see them and document that? The the FTC sue you and then have to spend 2 million to defend your secret method of training? Do a little research instead of playing stupid.

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/pre-ignition-catalytic-converter.htm

and

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm

Farrahday
06-20-2011, 04:43 AM
Does coke or dr pepper tell you what natural flavors are or quantity?

It's silky to wash off when I get it on my fingers, but it doesn't burn the skin off like koh or naoh. I get 5 lpm, I have 265,875 miles on my 06 corolla and I've been using it since June 2008, and I get 65 mpg hwy up from 30 stock. I had a cam shaft sensor checked and the engine was clean, no sludge, saltwater wouldn't produce that result. I don't use a bubbler because there is no need since the cell is in the trunk not in the hood. It's not saltwater, there is no precipitate in the bottle. The dry gas is produced, not used. When the cap is off the resevoir, the vapor stream is 2ft high when it's not windy. Feel free to buy a bottle and test it if you want. With the hho cell I have a vaporizer on the fuel line which gave me 10 mpg hwy and the hho volo chip that gave me another 10 mpg hwy

65mpg from 30mpg stock. Wow, that's more than impressive... that's amazing... and from just 5lpm!

From the first photo, it rather looks like your reservoir doubles as a bubbler. So how much current are you drawing through your electrolyser? Do you employ any form of current control, or over-heating cut-out?

You say above, 'dry gas is produced, not used'? Is this a typo... What do you mean?

However, it is clear that your gas will not be a dry gas, because as you say with the top off the reservoir you get a 2ft high mist. That mist is water condensing, so unless you remove that water with a chemical dryer somewhere before the engine, your gas is very wet.

What do you mean when you say you have a vapoursier on the fuel line... on the regular fuel line? The regular fuel should enter the engine as a vapour anyway, that's what a carb or injectors do as the liquid does not burn. Are you heating up the fuel line to help evaporation of the liquid fuel?

With all due respect to you, to those people that have played around with this stuff for a good while, you sound more like a sales person than a technician. And at the end of the day, irrelevant of what electrolytic compound you employ, it all comes down to the current flowing through the cell and hence obeys Faraday's laws of electrolysis. An electrolyte does not create current flow, it simply creates a path for more or less current to flow between the electrodes - your electrolyte will be no different.

You will understand why folk will be so sceptical when most do not even see a 20% increase in fuel economy, and yet you are boasting over a 100%... and from what appears to be a tiny electrolyser!

When using an electrolyte, I use anhydrous Na2SO4 as this is quite user friendly, but gram for gram KOH is the most efficient. So whatever you use, gram for gram it won't ionise in water as readily as KOH. Not that this really matters.

myoldyourgold
06-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmafuelsystem.com View Post
Cows to fly wow? Did the epa see them and document that? The the FTC sue you and then have to spend 2 million to defend your secret method of training? Do a little research instead of playing stupid.
http://bwt.jeffotto.com/pre-ignition...-converter.htm

and

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm

Post your EPA and CARB approvals and that would keep my cows grounded.

After a long talk to the FTC I found they had no jurisdiction over animals that fly. LOL

Buy the way my cows are not for sale and never will be like yours are. The problem with getting EPA approval had to do with the inability of disposing of the Bovine Fecal Mater in a acceptable way but they too had no jurisdiction over flying animals, so no law suit. Maybe you have solved this problem.

One more thing I never said the technology doesn't work.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-20-2011, 08:54 PM
65mpg from 30mpg stock. Wow, that's more than impressive... that's amazing... and from just 5lpm!



From the first photo, it rather looks like your reservoir doubles as a bubbler. So how much current are you drawing through your electrolyser? Do you employ any form of current control, or over-heating cut-out?

You say above, 'dry gas is produced, not used'? Is this a typo... What do you mean?



Yes, the water falls and the gas is sucked into the air box. Less than 2 amps or 120 miliamps dca, so not much. No current controls, I get 13,11,8,5,2 volts from outside to inside the stepdown is due to the spacers. No problem with heat because the design allows heat to escape. Their (r/d at better world technologies or bwt) first design was a closed box with a see tube using koh and they had many heat, foam and amp issues. Varying amp levels for engine size and all that. The cell/resevoir gets warm but not too hot to touch. I mean produced because the gas is what is coming out of the resevoir like a thin flame which is then used by the engine of course.


However, it is clear that your gas will not be a dry gas, because as you say with the top off the reservoir you get a 2ft high mist. That mist is water condensing, so unless you remove that water with a chemical dryer somewhere before the engine, your gas is very wet.



It looks very dry and I suppose the air filter could act as a filter but it's above the input hole, so it probably doesn't since the vacuum is very strong. It's not a misty feel, however when I grab the tailpipe I do get water drops. I was thinking about putting the input under the throttle body, however probably wouldn't make much difference.


What do you mean when you say you have a vapoursier on the fuel line... on the regular fuel line? The regular fuel should enter the engine as a vapour anyway, that's what a carb or injectors do as the liquid does not burn. Are you heating up the fuel line to help evaporation of the liquid fuel?



The magnetic vaporizer is wrapped on the heater hose and the fuel line is attached to both ends. The new catalyst crackers are filled with 7 catalysts and inserted in the heater hose with the fuel lines secured on top. They both essentially break the gas molecule into smaller parts like a log into wood chips for a more complete burn. This is like a mini refinery to treat the fuel prior to ignition. You can see a better explaination on my site and pictures of the various types for different hp ratings. Now they suggest the vaporizer for carburetors and the cat cracker for injection.


With all due respect to you, to those people that have played around with this stuff for a good while, you sound more like a sales person than a technician. And at the end of the day, irrelevant of what electrolytic compound you employ, it all comes down to the current flowing through the cell and hence obeys Faraday's laws of electrolysis. An electrolyte does not create current flow, it simply creates a path for more or less current to flow between the electrodes - your electrolyte will be no different.



Yes, I am sales I had my mechanic install the vaporizer, do the electrical and run the vacuum tube to the air box. I installed the cell, mounted it to the plexiglass. I like it better in the trunk because it's cleaner and since there was no room, it was the only option. I'm going from what the r/d boys tell me about the NCE acting as a catalyst. I'm not sure if it's h2o2, or naoh in some sort of liquid form. It looks/feels thicker than water but smooth, nothing suspended or floating around, it's pure. It dries around the cap crusty/salty, has to be a salt base. It has no smell but it's much better than my first mix of baking soda and h2o2. I cleaned all that crap out with apple cider vinegar and then flushed it.


You will understand why folk will be so sceptical when most do not even see a 20% increase in fuel economy, and yet you are boasting over a 100%... and from what appears to be a tiny electrolyser!



Yes, it's natural to be skeptical and I expect to prove what I say with repeatable results not just words that is why there is a 30 day guarantee on all products and 60 for the catalyst crackers. My progression was 30 stock, added the vaporizer for another 10 mpg hwy, added the hho cell for 15 mpg hwy so it was 50 to 55 hwy until I found the volo chip 5/19/2011 which gave me another 10 to 20% which was around 10 mpg hwy. However, all this still means I'm spending $10 to $15 a day in gas as I travel 100 to 200 miles.


The test I use for hwy is this, fill up to where the pump clicks off then drive 25 miles at least and turn around. Return to the same pump and fill unitl it clicks. Last test used .9 gals and went 60 miles = 66 mpg approx. This is the ideal mpg. Combined city/hwy is 40 mpg.


Step #2 is the PICC (pre ignition cat converter) will turn liquid fuel into plasma vapor and will make the 100 mpg mark city/hwy.



http://bwt.jeffotto.com/pre-ignition-catalytic-converter.htm


and



http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm


This was supposed to be released in 2009 but the FTC sued bwt to prove the 50% increase guarantee which they did, but it cost a few million.



I have a trucker in california waiting for the EO# for carb who has 40 trucks he would like to retrofit. Whenever california figures out their budget mess.


I'd rather just use hho if I could figure out what these guys did...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py8QYt54EpE&playnext=1&list=PL2243C6F56550FB4B


Very interesting 15 minutes. Probably spent more than $1500, another alternator, battery, electronics, guages etc etc!

When using an electrolyte, I use anhydrous Na2SO4 as this is quite user friendly, but gram for gram KOH is the most efficient. So whatever you use, gram for gram it won't ionise in water as readily as KOH. Not that this really matters.



You are probably right, however I like the results from the NCE and not worrying about having to measure amps, and exact amount of koh per water etc. All I do is add enough to keep the flow constant and if I add a bit too much I have no problems with heat and amps stay about 2 or less.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-20-2011, 09:18 PM
QUOTE=myoldyourgold;44899]Post your EPA and CARB approvals and that would keep my cows grounded.



see link http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm



and read http://bwt.jeffotto.com/alternative.htm



still waiting on carb eo# from californikation ... maybe when the guv can cut a few billion and start asking beaners for their i9 and everify forms, and a legit social security number instead of 000 00 0000. But that is asking too much in a state where you don't need id to vote.


the EPA want to tell us that co2 is now toxic but we exhale and what plants use it for food. Screw them. I was kidding about them documenting your flying moo moos. I hate big guberment.


After a long talk to the FTC I found they had no jurisdiction over animals that fly. LOL



I want wings but I'll have to wait for www.moller.com his flying cars. Just as soon as the FAA sets up the gps to land planes with veritical take off!


Buy the way my cows are not for sale and never will be like yours are. The problem with getting EPA approval had to do with the inability of disposing of the Bovine Fecal Mater in a acceptable way but they too had no jurisdiction over flying animals, so no law suit. Maybe you have solved this problem.



I think cows would be afraid to fly unless there were flying dogs that rounded them up and told them where to land. Imagine the mess of a lightning strike.


One more thing I never said the technology doesn't work.[/QUOTE]



No worries, everyone is a skeptic... my dad asked me "so now you spent all this money, does this hho mumbo jumbo even work"? The rest of my family was sure it would blow up the car. I guess it's similar to what edison said about a/c and that tesla was crazy...

Farrahday
06-21-2011, 03:50 AM
Well thanks for elaborating Plasmaguy. All very interesting.

From what you have said, I would think that the NCE is sodium sulphate concentrate, hence Na2SO4 already mixed with water. It dissolves completely, nothing is in suspension and it does have that feel to it - that said, this is also the case for most other electrolytes.

If you are only drawing up to 2 amps, then it won't require much of any electrolyte to achieve that current draw. In fact 2 amps is only a tiny current draw and the reason why your unit can dissipate the heat easily enough. But, 2 amps doesn't produce much hydroxy at all, let alone the 120mA you mention, which is a ridiculously tiny current, so I find this to be a bit of a mystery in itself. I was expecting you to say you were drawing in the region of 20 -40 Amps!

I'd always heard that those magnets on fuel lines were very over-rated, yet it sounds like that has made a real impact on you fuel economy.

Whatever, it sounds like you are seeing some real world returns for the modifications.

The PICC sounds like it will be fun... the only thing you will be lacking then is a flux capacitor!

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-22-2011, 02:14 AM
Well thanks for elaborating Plasmaguy. All very interesting.

From what you have said, I would think that the NCE is sodium sulphate concentrate, hence Na2SO4 already mixed with water. It dissolves completely, nothing is in suspension and it does have that feel to it - that said, this is also the case for most other electrolytes.

yes that could be

If you are only drawing up to 2 amps, then it won't require much of any electrolyte to achieve that current draw. In fact 2 amps is only a tiny current draw and the reason why your unit can dissipate the heat easily enough. But, 2 amps doesn't produce much hydroxy at all, let alone the 120mA you mention, which is a ridiculously tiny current, so I find this to be a bit of a mystery in itself. I was expecting you to say you were drawing in the region of 20 -40 Amps!

Here are a few bullit points for nce from the creators

almost double gas production at the same current relative to koh

non corrosive

no need to flush the cell again

eliminates o ring deterioration

eliminates foaming problems

steady gas production

benchmark for testing on gas production should be about 1.7 amps x the number of liters in engine size.

so for me 1.7 x 1.8 should be 3.06

I guess I need to add more and see what happens!

2 liter engine or less should be less than 4 amps

3 liter = 6 amps

4 liter = 8 amps

5 liter = 10 amps

6 liter = not exceed 12 amps

I only measured one side if I double that then 240 mamps is still less, so ??

I'd always heard that those magnets on fuel lines were very over-rated, yet it sounds like that has made a real impact on you fuel economy.

That is why I installed it first to measure. I was skeptical as well. It works much better than the "tornado" deal you stick in the air intake. I am going to upgrade to the catalyst cracker asap.

Whatever, it sounds like you are seeing some real world returns for the modifications.

The PICC sounds like it will be fun... the only thing you will be lacking then is a flux capacitor!

Carefull, remember the trouble they got in with that machine!

enuro12
06-22-2011, 03:36 PM
So why not let someone in a different state try the PICC?

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 01:57 AM
So why not let someone in a different state try the PICC?

The state issue regarding california is only for carb/eo# and their budget problems. The reason the picc isn't in production is due to the FTC lawsuit in 2009 that drained the r/d funds. They are selling the components of the mmpg system individually to make the income needed to proceed.

read more here >>> http://update.jeffotto.com/

"What is the current status of ITEC's Electricity Program"? The program is on hold and will remain so until one of two possibilities happen. 1) We somehow achieve mass awareness and the people demand it in sufficient numbers. OR 2) The Republic movement is successful in restoring lawful government under common law as outlined in the organic constitution. This is also the case for our Pre Ignition Catalytic Converter and many other breakthrough technologies waiting in the wings you may not have even heard about.

Farrahday
06-23-2011, 01:04 PM
I see this all the time. A major issue seems to be that the science is simply beyond many people. Either because they have not bothered to familiarise themselves with Faraday's laws of electrolysis, have not researched the subject fully or simply fail to understand what the laws imply - it basically just goes straight over their heads...:confused:

So, it never fails to amaze me how so many people interested in - and indeed actively pursuing - this science, fail miserably to grasp Faraday's laws. How can people make head-or-tail of the results from electrolyser experiments without fully understanding Faraday's laws? The mind boggles!


Here are a few bullit points for nce from the creators

almost double gas production at the same current relative to koh


See now, this is an immediate problem. This is impossible. Not just because I think so, or Michael Faraday says so, but because it really is not possible.

Any given current can only evolve a given amount of gas. Gas evolved is directly proportional to the current - this is irrelevant of the electrolyte employed. You know that the NCE plays no actual part in the final chemical reaction because you yourself state that it does not get used up, and rightly so. So the electrolyte itself cannot be evolving gas.

Anyone with a full grasp of Faraday's laws of electrolysis would see the problem immediately, but for those people who are confused, this is quite simply why it is not possible:

At the cathode, the hydrogen ion (a single proton) needs to pick up an electron to become a hydrogen atom before it can evolve as gas. Every hydrogen ion must collect an electron from the cathode to become an atom. The more current flowing through a cell, the more hydrogen ions there will be to collect electrons from the cathode. This is why the gas production is directly proportional to the current flowing.

1 hydrogen ion + 1 electron = 1 hydrogen atom

This is why it is impossible to achieve double the gas production in any given electrolyser for the same current. If people really can't see this then perhaps they should think about applying themselves to something they do understand.

What can happen, and something else that is rarely, if ever, considered is that along with the evolving oxygen and hydrogen you will get water vapour. So you will be collecting three gases, not just two. This will certainly make a difference to the volume of gas collected and measured, moreso with electrolysers that run hot.

myoldyourgold
06-23-2011, 01:51 PM
Well stated Farah, and now you know why my cows can fly. LOL

D.O.G
06-23-2011, 06:04 PM
This "NCE" is starting to sound like another one of the ammonium hydroxide based "electrolytes", where the ammonia is consumed as a fuel to produce extra hydrogen.

Mister plasmafuelsystem, do you have to keep adding NCE to the generator?

Pete.

myoldyourgold
06-23-2011, 06:13 PM
This "NCE" is starting to sound like another one of the ammonium hydroxide based "electrolytes", where the ammonia is consumed as a fuel to produce extra hydrogen.

Mister plasmafuelsystem, do you have to keep adding NCE to the generator?

Pete, one of their claims is the electrolyte does not get used up. I am one of the most out of the box guys but this is just.............

The ammonia stuff is still under investigation. I am going to run some tests some time the beginning of next month. I am not sure it will be of much help but maybe in California where if you change anything in the car you are illegal. LOL

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 08:57 PM
Well stated Farah, and now you know why my cows can fly. LOL

hmm, back to flying bovines now?

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 09:00 PM
Pete, one of their claims is the electrolyte does not get used up. I am one of the most out of the box guys but this is just.............

The ammonia stuff is still under investigation. I am going to run some tests some time the beginning of next month. I am not sure it will be of much help but maybe in California where if you change anything in the car you are illegal. LOL

COLOR="Red"]nce gets used up, just slower than koh, but by all means if you like koh keep using it.[/COLOR]

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 09:02 PM
This "NCE" is starting to sound like another one of the ammonium hydroxide based "electrolytes", where the ammonia is consumed as a fuel to produce extra hydrogen.

Mister plasmafuelsystem, do you have to keep adding NCE to the generator?

Pete.

yes mr pete you do. A 2oz bottle lasts me 5 months adding just enough to keep the flow constant and amps per side around 1.5

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 09:07 PM
I see this all the time. A major issue seems to be that the science is simply beyond many people. Either because they have not bothered to familiarise themselves with Faraday's laws of electrolysis, have not researched the subject fully or simply fail to understand what the laws imply - it basically just goes straight over their heads...:confused:

So, it never fails to amaze me how so many people interested in - and indeed actively pursuing - this science, fail miserably to grasp Faraday's laws. How can people make head-or-tail of the results from electrolyser experiments without fully understanding Faraday's laws? The mind boggles!



See now, this is an immediate problem. This is impossible. Not just because I think so, or Michael Faraday says so, but because it really is not possible.

Any given current can only evolve a given amount of gas. Gas evolved is directly proportional to the current - this is irrelevant of the electrolyte employed. You know that the NCE plays no actual part in the final chemical reaction because you yourself state that it does not get used up, and rightly so. So the electrolyte itself cannot be evolving gas.

Anyone with a full grasp of Faraday's laws of electrolysis would see the problem immediately, but for those people who are confused, this is quite simply why it is not possible:

At the cathode, the hydrogen ion (a single proton) needs to pick up an electron to become a hydrogen atom before it can evolve as gas. Every hydrogen ion must collect an electron from the cathode to become an atom. The more current flowing through a cell, the more hydrogen ions there will be to collect electrons from the cathode. This is why the gas production is directly proportional to the current flowing.

1 hydrogen ion + 1 electron = 1 hydrogen atom

This is why it is impossible to achieve double the gas production in any given electrolyser for the same current. If people really can't see this then perhaps they should think about applying themselves to something they do understand.

What can happen, and something else that is rarely, if ever, considered is that along with the evolving oxygen and hydrogen you will get water vapour. So you will be collecting three gases, not just two. This will certainly make a difference to the volume of gas collected and measured, moreso with electrolysers that run hot.[/QUOTE]

Well, it seems the only option left for you is to buy some for $25 and test it, then you will know, if this issue is keeping you up at night...

Let me know when you figure out how to run cars on hho alone or build an hho gas engine like Yull Brown did, I'll buy one. I'm tired of buying gas.

myoldyourgold
06-23-2011, 10:26 PM
nce gets used up, just slower than koh, but by all means if you like koh keep using it.

Sorry KOH or NaOH does not get used up in the electrolysis process only water gets used. If your NCE electrolyte gets used up then that is a totally different mater and is closer to ammonia. Production does not double though right??? or are my cows getting ready to take off.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 11:21 PM
Sorry KOH or NaOH does not get used up in the electrolysis process only water gets used. If your NCE electrolyte gets used up then that is a totally different mater and is closer to ammonia. Production does not double though right??? or are my cows getting ready to take off.

Of course it gets used up or I wouldn't have to buy more than the 1oz per 16oz of distilled water I used in 2008 to charge it. It bonds to the water just as koh, naoh, lye, baking soda etc. When I wash it off it stays on my fingers when wet it doesn't immediately dissapate. I don't know the formula they used, so I'm guessing if it's h2o2 and naoh in liquid form or naso4 as farraday proposed, but there is no smell, it's pure no precipitate and it's much easier to use than caustic - take your pick.

I haven't used nh4oh, so I would be flying your cows if I commented on that. And if that were true, then I could put seawater in my resevoir, turn on my flux capacitor and fly to my destination in my ferrari suv with gps computerized autopilot with 3 hooters girls servicing me.

nst6563
06-23-2011, 11:24 PM
turn on my flux capacitor and fly to my destination in my ferrari suv with gps computerized autopilot with 3 hooters girls servicing me.

Hell yeah, sign me up for that! Replace said Hooters girls with select SI swimsuit models though.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-23-2011, 11:25 PM
Of course it gets used up or I wouldn't have to buy more than the 1oz per 16oz of distilled water I used in 2008 to charge it. It bonds to the water just as koh, naoh, lye, baking soda etc. When I wash it off it stays on my fingers when wet it doesn't immediately dissapate. I don't know the formula they used, so I'm guessing if it's h2o2 and naoh in liquid form or naso4 as farraday proposed, but there is no smell, it's pure no precipitate and it's much easier to use than caustic - take your pick.

I haven't used nh4oh, so I would be flying your cows if I commented on that. And if that were true, then I could put seawater in my resevoir, turn on my flux capacitor and fly to my destination in my ferrari suv with gps computerized autopilot with 3 hooters girls servicing me.

The r/d boys told me nce doubled output vs koh at the same current... I wasn't there for the test, I've never used koh. Maybe they were smoking some koh when they did the test? My first crappy mix was baking soda and h2o2... that sucked and smelled like asparagus laced urine when I cleaned it out!

myoldyourgold
06-24-2011, 12:52 AM
Of course it gets used up or I wouldn't have to buy more than the 1oz per 16oz of distilled water I used in 2008 to charge it.

Either you did not understand what I said or you do not understand electrolysis. KOH or NaOH only get depleted because they get carried out with water that has not been separated into HHO. Usually this happens when your reactor is running hot and making steam. Some does escape in micro particles of water but never is used up in the electrolysis process. No chemical reaction takes place no other gas is made etc. I have electrolyte that has been used for years and I just keep adding distilled water and filtering it and it keeps getting better and better. :D If your reactor is built right very little escapes. If it does get used up what gas does it make because all we have coming out is hydrogen and oxygen at least that is what comes out of mine with the use of NaOH of KOH? It is only the water that gets separated and used up.


The r/d boys told me nce doubled output vs koh at the same current... I wasn't there for the test, I've never used koh. Maybe they were smoking some koh when they did the test?

I would not be claiming that because it is just impossible and they should know that. Of course they might have been smoking NCE for all we know and that would be more believe. LOL

D.O.G
06-24-2011, 01:45 AM
plasmafuelsystems.com
Please consider changing your avatar image.
I'm probably not alone in finding it inappropriate.

Pete

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-24-2011, 02:37 AM
plasmafuelsystems.com
Please consider changing your avatar image.
I'm probably not alone in finding it inappropriate.

Pete

noted, changed :)

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-24-2011, 02:51 AM
Either you did not understand what I said or you do not understand electrolysis. KOH or NaOH only get depleted because they get carried out with water that has not been separated into HHO. Usually this happens when your reactor is running hot and making steam. Some does escape in micro particles of water but never is used up in the electrolysis process. No chemical reaction takes place no other gas is made etc. I have electrolyte that has been used for years and I just keep adding distilled water and filtering it and it keeps getting better and better. :D If your reactor is built right very little escapes. If it does get used up what gas does it make because all we have coming out is hydrogen and oxygen at least that is what comes out of mine with the use of NaOH of KOH? It is only the water that gets separated and used up.

The nce is not used up in the process, it produces hho gas. It is not adding h or o to the hho gas, just allowing the h2o molecule to seperate through the process. I add more nce when the water level decreases, amps get low, flow retards or I want more power under my foot! I will ask again if they will tell me what exactly it is, but they probably won't since it's a secret. Or you can ask admin@jeffotto.com or



I would not be claiming that because it is just impossible and they should know that. Of course they might have been smoking NCE for all we know and that would be more believe. LOL

In two instruction sheets I got were "almost double gas production at the same current relative to koh

and

"significantly more gas production relative to current and cooler operation of hho gen cell"

I listed the other benefits the other day.

I've been using it for 3 years, no problems and I have 266,000 miles on my car.

Roland Jacques
06-24-2011, 09:41 AM
plasmafuelsystems.com
Please consider changing your avatar image.
I'm probably not alone in finding it inappropriate.

Pete

:confused:

Roland Jacques
06-24-2011, 09:54 AM
Doesn't Faraday's law only apply to The Hydrogen and oxygen?

IF the gas we (me) are concerned with is the other gases in the mix also, could his Electrolyte be doubling gas output without conflicting with Faraday's law?

It seems to me that there are patterns that support quality gas over quantity. Me i care about results more than how we get them.
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss195/vrand01/HHOAtomicMassAnalysis.jpg

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/watergas.html

Plasmafuelcell

If you to volunteer some of the electrolyte i'll report comparison results in production and performance on a gen-set test.

myoldyourgold
06-24-2011, 12:59 PM
IF the gas we (me) are concerned with is the other gases in the mix also, could his Electrolyte be doubling gas output without conflicting with Faraday's law?

The answer is yes but then it would get consumed. I am still not clear if it is getting consumed or not and I doubt he really knows.

I have done a number of tests that have shown that under certain conditions the gas produced is many fold more powerful. I will not get into any details but have shared this with a few people. I am confident that there is no violation of Faraday's law. Wiseman's research is interesting and another possible explanation. We are all working to achieve a similar goal which requires either more gas per amp or more powerful gas per amp or both.

My problem with NCE is it is being marketed with just hype and no real science behind it at least so far. It is not impossible that it is getting consumed and is making a gas which ups the energy level of the gas. I have read some reports of users that have found no benefit. This does not mean that it does not do what is claimed but maybe the user did not know what they were doing. Time will tell. Just think about it. If a 5 lpm reactor now starts producing 10 lpm by adding this electrolyte at the same amps it would be a real bonanza! I just doubt it.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-24-2011, 02:25 PM
Doesn't Faraday's law only apply to The Hydrogen and oxygen?

IF the gas we (me) are concerned with is the other gases in the mix also, could his Electrolyte be doubling gas output without conflicting with Faraday's law?

It seems to me that there are patterns that support quality gas over quantity. Me i care about results more than how we get them.
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss195/vrand01/HHOAtomicMassAnalysis.jpg

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/watergas.html

Plasmafuelcell

If you to volunteer some of the electrolyte i'll report comparison results in production and performance on a gen-set test.

Well sure how much you want 2oz, quart, gallon? Go to my site, plasmafuelsystem.com click performance products, scroll down to the hydro sol package, click the button to buy it, the upper right hand side you'll see technology products, click that then click performance products and scroll to page 2, you'll see the nce. Enter your details and then send the bill to the EPA. :) I'm sure obumba will be happy to subsidise your work.

Roland Jacques
06-24-2011, 03:57 PM
Well sure how much you want 2oz, quart, gallon? Go to my site, plasmafuelsystem.com click performance products, scroll down to the hydro sol package, click the button to buy it, the upper right hand side you'll see technology products, click that then click performance products and scroll to page 2, you'll see the nce. Enter your details and then send the bill to the EPA. :) I'm sure obumba will be happy to subsidise your work.

Just an offer :) it could have been a showing of your faith in your product. If i pay for it, where's the motive for me to take the extra time make a video do a performance test and post it here?
,
Tell you what, I'll pay for a 2 oz bottle if you money back guarantee it will double the output. I wont make a video or do a gen-set test but i'll test the production before and after and post my results.

Roland Jacques
06-24-2011, 04:14 PM
I have done a number of tests that have shown that under certain conditions the gas produced is many fold more powerful. I will not get into any details but have shared this with a few people.

I'll show you my top secret project if you show me yours.:p

Iv'e been working on a gravity device simular to F.M.Chalkalis forever now, i'll share it anyway when i finish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHhZZ9DuzK4&feature=player_embedded

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-25-2011, 01:17 AM
just an offer :) it could have been a showing of your faith in your product. If i pay for it, where's the motive for me to take the extra time make a video do a performance test and post it here?
,
tell you what, i'll pay for a 2 oz bottle if you money back guarantee it will double the output. I wont make a video or do a gen-set test but i'll test the production before and after and post my results.

there is a 30 day guarantee on all products and 60 day for catalyst crackers.

myoldyourgold
06-25-2011, 09:20 AM
Well, that sounds fine to me, but you will want to ask Jeff Otto, he is who I buy it from customerservice@jeffotto.com He probably won't.

Why do you need his permission? Once you own it you can give the warranty personally. Gee you will only be out what you paid for it. I guess you have not tested it or........

Looked at Jeff's web site and after looking at the reactor he is selling I had a good laugh. If the electrolyte is anything like that, no thanks. Makes a good joke though and the laugh will extend you life a little!!

Farrahday
06-25-2011, 06:39 PM
Doesn't Faraday's law only apply to The Hydrogen and oxygen?

IF the gas we (me) are concerned with is the other gases in the mix also, could his Electrolyte be doubling gas output without conflicting with Faraday's law?

It seems to me that there are patterns that support quality gas over quantity.

Faraday's laws are not just applicable to hydrogen and oxygen, but any reaction that is occurring whereby charges are being exchanged at electrodes and new substances are being formed. Electroplating is another example where Faraday's laws apply, and there you are getting a metal dropped on an electrode rather than a gas evolving. Any unwanted side reactions that are occurring in a standard dc electrolyser will be obeying Faraday's laws. These unwanted reactions, such as the production of iron oxide from iron leaching all detract from the oxygen output, so hence less overall gas will be produced.

And hence, no, his electrolyte could not be doubling the gas output without conflicting with Faraday's laws as there are still only a set amount of electrons available at the cathode for any given current. It all sound like wishful thing on the R&D side to me - just something for the sales team to plug.

I have serious doubts about these quality over quantity claims. I believe their argument comes down to the percentages of parahydrogen to orthohydrogen, but I can't help feeling they are clutching at straws. I've yet to see any real proof of this, and ideally to substantiate these claims you would run two identical electrolysers, with one as a control. They never do anything as logical as that though, do they... my guess is just in case it dispells the fantasy!

Mind you, if you really want to see some figures that just don't add up, Fast Freddy is the man. He really is bonkers, I think he lives somewhere in 'Cloud Cuckoo Land'!

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-27-2011, 10:25 AM
Why do you need his permission? Once you own it you can give the warranty personally. Gee you will only be out what you paid for it. I guess you have not tested it or........

Looked at Jeff's web site and after looking at the reactor he is selling I had a good laugh. If the electrolyte is anything like that, no thanks. Makes a good joke though and the laugh will extend you life a little!!

I buy the product from him. Why would I give some dumbass $25? It's been tested for 3 years and 160,000 miles on my car.

Where is your website? Do you make $60,000 a month from the products on your website? Oh yea no, you sit on your fat a.s.s in a forum. You're the joke.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-27-2011, 12:08 PM
i buy the product from him. Why would i give some dumbass $25? It's been tested for 3 years and 160,000 miles on my car.

Where is your website? Do you make $60,000 a month from the products on your website? Oh yea no, you sit on your fat a.s.s in a forum. You're the joke.

there is a 30 day money back guarantee on all products and 60 day for catalyst crackers

myoldyourgold
06-27-2011, 01:01 PM
Why would I give some dumbass $25?

You took the words right out of my mouth. If what you say is true you would not be giving anybody $25.00 they would be giving it to you.


These are your own words:

Remember that NCE is not a consumable.

When the cap is off the reservoir, the vapor stream is 2ft high when it's not windy.

almost double gas production at the same current relative to koh

benchmark for testing on gas production should be about 1.7 amps x the number of liters in engine size.

I guess I need to add more and see what happens!

nce gets used up, just slower than koh, but by all means if you like koh keep using it.

Of course it gets used up


I find this a total waste of my time and I think the above statements made by you show that you really have very little knowledge of what is going on other than what has been given to you as selling points. You might be a good salesman but I do not see that you have done to much testing of your own. I run any where from 3 to 8 reactors at a time 24 hours a day non stop, some now for years, collecting data and recording it some times at 2 minute intervals for hours. I learn from experience, reading, and some help from people who have a scientific background/knowledge. This is not to mention the reactors that are in vehicles that are on the road, in fields, and even the water running every day in a number of states reporting back everyday to establish and learn how to use this technology to its best.

If I was making $60,000 a month on hype mixed with fact and..... I would not be posting it on a public forum and bragging about it. I think enough is said, and I for one have no more time to waste of this.

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-27-2011, 03:11 PM
You took the words right out of my mouth. If what you say is true you would not be giving anybody $25.00 they would be giving it to you.



I find this a total waste of my time and I think the above statements made by you show that you really have very little knowledge of what is going on other than what has been given to you as selling points. You might be a good salesman but I do not see that you have done to much testing of your own. I run any where from 3 to 8 reactors at a time 24 hours a day non stop, some now for years, collecting data and recording it some times at 2 minute intervals for hours. I learn from experience, reading, and some help from people who have a scientific background/knowledge. This is not to mention the reactors that are in vehicles that are on the road, in fields, and even the water running every day in a number of states reporting back everyday to establish and learn how to use this technology to its best.

If I was making $60,000 a month on hype mixed with fact and..... I would not be posting it on a public forum and bragging about it. I think enough is said, and I for one have no more time to waste of this.

From the first post you made about flying cows you have come off as a complete moron, not taking any time to investigate what is it I've written, because you THINK you know everything. I don't make that much money, Jeff does. Jeff is the dealer I am an affiliate as it says on my domain. The reply was to your joke comment. The hho gen cell is the first step in a two part system, but you can't comprend the PICC either because you're the knowitall and unless you do it then it can't be possible. Your inability to comprehend the written word is funny, that is why you're the joke and a complete waste of time, I agree on that. Take a look at the tech update page going back years. Do some research or continue to do what you've always done. As for my own words, if you think koh and naoh don't get used up IN THE PROCESS then don't buy anymore and see how far you get. Wait you said "I haven't added anymore koh, just water and filter the koh" That makes no sense! Every electrolyte gets bonded to the water and isn't stopped by the filter. It's in your engine eating it like a cancer and sitting in the vacuum tube. Hype and fact? Everything I've posted can be proven through my experience or from r/d in shops in Florida, NJ, Arizona, Nevada etc. There are 2000 dealers of bwt, so they all must be full of BS because you know everything right...

I guess when you looked at the site you missed the 30/60 day guarantee and then went on to say the gen cell is a joke. Then I suppose you missed it in bold red when I posted it here twice today. Go back to monitoring your reactors.

myoldyourgold
06-27-2011, 03:58 PM
From the first post you made about flying cows you have come off as a complete moron, not taking any time to investigate what is it I've written, because you THINK you know everything. I don't make that much money, Jeff does. Your inability to comprehend the written word is funny, that is why you're the joke and a complete waste of time, I agree on that.

I guess when you looked at the site you missed the 30/60 day guarantee and then went on to say the gen cell is a joke. Then I suppose you missed it in bold red when I posted it here twice today. Go back to monitoring your reactors.

Gee I guess I got you heart rate up. That was not my intention. I thought that would have ended things but I see I am forced to make another post. You are right about one thing I did not see your post about the guarantee or would have made some comment on that too. You need to compare the unlimited 30/60 day guarantee with the return policy. I suspect if I returned an empty bottle saying it dose not work as specified I would have a problem in getting my money back and maybe rightfully so. I am not interested period in any products being offered. Has nothing to do with if they work or not either. I just am not interested but have followed this saga from the first full page adds in New Week many years ago and some of the legal problems along the way. It has been a very interesting story to follow.

I am even more amused that the flying cows upset you so much.

You blew it as far as I am concerned by posting a nude avatar in a forum like this and showed your real colors. I suspect if D.O.G. had not said what he did you would have left it there until you got banned but what do I Know being the moron. LOL

plasmafuelsystem.com
06-27-2011, 06:51 PM
Gee I guess I got you heart rate up. That was not my intention. I thought that would have ended things but I see I am forced to make another post. You are right about one thing I did not see your post about the guarantee or would have made some comment on that too. You need to compare the unlimited 30/60 day guarantee with the return policy. I suspect if I returned an empty bottle saying it dose not work as specified I would have a problem in getting my money back and maybe rightfully so. I am not interested period in any products being offered. Has nothing to do with if they work or not either. I just am not interested but have followed this saga from the first full page adds in New Week many years ago and some of the legal problems along the way. It has been a very interesting story to follow.

I am even more amused that the flying cows upset you so much.

You blew it as far as I am concerned by posting a nude avatar in a forum like this and showed your real colors. I suspect if D.O.G. had not said what he did you would have left it there until you got banned but what do I Know being the moron. LOL


I think 30 days is enough time to evaluate most products/services. 60 days to run a hwy test on the catalyst crackers is plenty when it only takes about two hours. Are you the type who goes to home depo and buys a lawnmower for the summer and returns it in October? I bet you buy weed killer and then fill it back up with water. Maybe put some koh and vinegar in there.

You don't like women? I guess you prefer cows... my blood pressue is a little high but I'll be ok 130/85, but yes I should cut down on salt. Oh speaking of health you want a cure for cancer? www.cellpowerusa.com and www.healthforce.com I had a skin cancer melanoma mole removed May 3, did a ct/pet scan on friday and it hasn't spread! Cancer can't live in a alkaline body and cell power balances your ph. I'm sure you knew that though.

I emailed Jeff today for the formula or a video of comparison with a flow meter koh vs nce... coming soon! Then we can see if faraday was indeed correct or still had a question regarding the idea of the granular consistence of current.

Send me an email I'll keep you posted. john@plasmafuelsystem.com

CitizenPete
07-05-2011, 02:29 AM
Does anyone have a good test procedure they can share?

Testing a new cell/electrolyte combination that will be installed in a vehicle this week. Results so far are pretty good. Was wondering if anyone has a standard test/data log that they can recommend. It would be nice to challenge this new setup and document it correctly. Planning on a week of bench tests with different electrolyte strengths and then a week of baseline car tests and then week of installed tests.

Any suggestions for a good reasonable test procedure would be very welcome.

You can email me via my profile. I will try to follow this thread while I am traveling.

Thank you.

HHO Africa
07-18-2012, 11:47 AM
:)I want to throw a spanner in the works( so to speak!) I have been experimenting and testing various cells as a hobby( I am retired) and of late has come across a very nice cell( built by Hans Peter Grote - from Cape Town, South Africa) He uses stainless steel end plates, laser cut gaskets, instead of rubber O rings and potassium carbonate as an electrolyte. The electrolyte is not harsh on the steel plates or on the touch and has been giving very good results without foaming as KOH sometimes do. He also uses is a 12v pump instead of relying on the gravity for the electrolyte to be pumped into the cells. I am no scientist or chemist but this system is by far the best dry cell unit I have come across! Best results is 3 l/min at 30A with a 46 plate system for a 10 l truck. I have a fan on the unit but it has never got hot!: