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dennis13030
07-29-2008, 01:09 PM
What happens if we try to electrolyze frozen water?? I did not want to use the term "ice".

HYDROTEKPRO
07-29-2008, 01:39 PM
Sounds like trouble if you ask me.

The electrolyte is there to conduct the electricity, albeit frozen. The bubbles would have no escape. So sooner or later the bubbles would accumulate enough, to create enough pressure, to "crack the ice" (the frozen electrolyte) in the electrolyzer. If the electrolyzer is made out of PVC, well, it'd most likely break just like frozen pipes do in the winter, if it wasn't broken already from the freezing!! Same with acrylic and other "weak" materials. Stainless steel? Well, depending on the construction of the casing, it could sure blow a seal or a gasket.

A simple extrapolation sure. Have we tested it? No, don't see the point of it.

The ideal would be to keep the electrolyte from freezing, right? Even in the colder places like Alaska, right?

Keeping the safety bubbler from freezing is also a worthwhile endeavor.

HHOhoper
07-29-2008, 01:42 PM
Sounds like trouble if you ask me.

The electrolyte is there to conduct the electricity, albeit frozen. The bubbles would have no escape. So sooner or later the bubbles would accumulate enough, to create enough pressure, to "crack the ice" (the frozen electrolyte) in the electrolyzer. If the electrolyzer is made out of PVC, well, it'd most likely break just like frozen pipes do in the winter, if it wasn't broken already from the freezing!! Same with acrylic and other "weak" materials. Stainless steel? Well, depending on the construction of the casing, it could sure blow a seal or a gasket.

A simple extrapolation sure. Have we tested it? No, don't see the point of it.

The ideal would be to keep the electrolyte from freezing, right? Even in the colder places like Alaska, right?

Keeping the safety bubbler from freezing is also a worthwhile endeavor.

Very good points. I'm still researching everything I can find to keep these things from freezing and haven't really found a solution that doesn't come with quite a hassle.

dennis13030
07-29-2008, 01:49 PM
I wonder if there is a electrolyzer design that would not be damaged by the water freezing?

Also, the easy way to resolve this issue is to put a very low power heating blanket around the electrolyzer. Maybe temperature controlled so it is only powered when the ambient temp. is below 40F or something.

HYDROTEKPRO
07-29-2008, 01:50 PM
Beef up the % solution of electrolyte in the electrolyzer, that should do it, if you can keep the other variables under control, like thermal run-away.

What's wrong with just running anti-freeze in the safety bubbler during an Alaska Winter?

HHOhoper
07-29-2008, 01:51 PM
True, but wouldn't you need somewhere to plug it in to a power source? My car being parked at work is what I'm most concerned about.

dennis13030
07-29-2008, 01:59 PM
True, but wouldn't you need somewhere to plug it in to a power source? My car being parked at work is what I'm most concerned about.

I'd run the heater off of the battery. Thats why it would need to be very low power.

HHOhoper
07-29-2008, 02:01 PM
Do you know of one that is low enough that it wouldn't drain your battery before the next start-up? That would work quite well I think.

dennis13030
07-29-2008, 02:07 PM
It will take a little time to find them but I've seen them before. Also, it is not hard to make one your self using resistive wire sewn onto a fabric.

cjdave
07-31-2008, 09:32 PM
Using a container made of a flexable plastic like a tupperware, you can let it freeze and as soon as you start the current the electrolite heats up and melts.

Painless
07-31-2008, 11:30 PM
What's wrong with just running anti-freeze in the safety bubbler during an Alaska Winter?

I'd had this thought to, so I just decided to do some research into the chemical contents of anti-freeze to see if there might be any harmful side effects to our HHO generation process.

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze seems to say that the popular anti-freeze chemicals are merely composed of hydrogen and oxygen (sound familiar?), therefore, I'm wondering if their use in an electrolyzer would be perfectly safe. In addition to lowering the freezing point of the water, they also raise the boiling point which could also have benefits.

Any chemistry buffs around that can analyse this further?

countryboy18
08-01-2008, 07:44 PM
i am so going to try that when i get back home in 18 days. i hope some other people try it befor i do so i can find out the results sooner. it sayes it inhibits corrosion. if so then you can use copper in the generator and have even better gas production. you can also use aluminum insted of SS. or i am so excited to find out the results from some one or myself. and it can be run through a radiator and be cooled down.

clarence1984
08-01-2008, 08:06 PM
this is a stupendous idea my new cell has a small bit of non toxic antifreeze in it. Remember we can't dispose of harmful chemicals it harms out pets and children. This will allow you to get the cell hotter and yes it helps keep the corrosion down. But copper is still a no electro cavitation is extremely mean on metal way more so than the ethylene glycol can help. This also cuts down on production but no freezing in the winter is worth it. Especially if you spent 10's of hours making a nice cell.

slimk
08-01-2008, 08:18 PM
you could put methyl hydrate in it, its what winter windshield washer fluid uses normally to keep it from freezing, it can be bought on its own 99.9% pure but it is highly flamable which may be an issue, also bad to inhale, but you'd need very little of it in your mixture for it to do some good, at worst it might get a little slushy on the top of the solution only to thaw in a few minutes.

countryboy18
08-04-2008, 02:36 AM
so in a straight antifreeze copper will still corrode in the cell. what about galvanized steel?

dennis13030
08-04-2008, 06:38 PM
I still prefer to use a low power heater ran off of the battery and using a thermal switch at about 40F. Colder than 40F and the heater turns ON. Warmer than 40F and the heater turns OFF.

timetowinarace
08-05-2008, 11:35 AM
1. Electolyte solution needs to be set for current draw. Increasing it to prevent freezing is not viable.

2. While I don't see a problem with turning the power on a frozen unit, I see a huge problem allowing it to freeze in the first place. Even if the container can handle it, the small gaps between plates won't. Plate gap will be altered, connections dammaged, ect. Not viable.

3. Car batteries do not like cold climates. They are easily drained. Every year in the colder regions, when the temperature drops there is a mad dash for batteries for people that found out their batteries are weak. To add even a small drain on batteries in winter weather will quickly shorten the life of the battery. I've often thought to add a small vent in my unit to vent gas out the top and run a small current through the electrolyser to keep it from freezing. Same concept as a heater. But again, it's not viable, nor is the heater.

I'm still looking for a viable solution

timetowinarace
08-05-2008, 11:42 AM
A word on antifreeze.

I tried it. It works. But.

It's like putting dishsoap in the unit. Bubbles don't pop so you end up with a thick foam.

I havn't tried window washer fluid but I'm betting on simular results.

HYDROTEKPRO
08-05-2008, 12:00 PM
A word on antifreeze.

I tried it. It works. But.

It's like putting dishsoap in the unit. Bubbles don't pop so you end up with a thick foam.

I havn't tried window washer fluid but I'm betting on simular results.

For foaming issues how about this:

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=168&page=2