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karmagos1
08-17-2010, 02:53 PM
For peugeot 1400cc 8v and propably 1.5lpm?

myoldyourgold
08-18-2010, 11:26 AM
This is governed by engine size and maximum amount of amps per square inch or active surface on one plate. . For engine size 1/2 liter of HHO per Liter of engine size. For a/sq/in it is .5 amps per square inch of active surface area.

hhojedi
08-24-2010, 04:06 PM
This is governed by engine size and maximum amount of amps per square inch or active surface on one plate. . For engine size 1/2 liter of HHO per Liter of engine size. For a/sq/in it is .5 amps per square inch of active surface area.

does that mean both sides of the plate? thanks

peace

jedi

myoldyourgold
08-24-2010, 04:11 PM
The area that the electrolyte covers on one side of one plate when in operation. This should not be confused with the non operating or flooded state.

hhojedi
08-25-2010, 06:55 PM
what? thankyou for the answer, but forgive me i don't understand it. i've been reading and using the search (wich never seems to give me anything that seems to be related to my keyword or words) but it's not really sinking in. sorry if this is a hyjack.

peace

jedi

spicerman
08-25-2010, 08:08 PM
A good rule of thumb for plate area is 1/2 to 1 sq.in per volt. That,s plate area in the water. 1/16th gaskets.
wet cells are a waste of time and energy , they create too much heat.:(
Hope that helps. .....jesse

myoldyourgold
08-25-2010, 08:50 PM
What portion do you not understand 1/2 an amp per every square inch of active surface area. Or just active surface area. Example if you have 25 square inches of active surface area on one plate. You should run a maximum of 12.5 amps through each stack of the reactor if it has 25 square inches of active surface area on one plate. If you run more you will damage the plates over time and the reactor will not run efficiently. Efficiency is what this is all about. +nnnnn-nnnnn+ This is a 2 stack reactor. You could run 25 amps through this configuration max. This is actually 12.5 amps per stack, which is 12.5 amps per active surface area of one plate (25). Does that help. What governs how many amps is the the active surface area and the number of stacks. The more you have the more amps you can run. The stacks divide the total amps as given in the sample above. A one stack reacto +nnnnn- 12.5 amps max. This is an example of a 6 cell (6 gap) reactor. It goes, plates, cells, stacks, and reactor. If every body understands the terms and they become standard then there will be less misunderstandings. +nnnnn- this has 7 plates, 6 cells, and 1 stack in this reactor.

lhazleton
02-06-2011, 01:21 PM
Carter,
I think this confuses lots of people.
The active surface area of a reactor is the total sq.in. within the gasket area of one side of one plate. It makes no difference how many plates there are. You only use one side of one for any measurements.
For example, my reactor has 6"x9" plates. The gasket is 1/2" wide, making my active surface area 40 sq.in. (5"x8").
It's set up as 14 cell/2 stack (-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-), so I can run up to 20 amps. per stack or 40 amps total maximum for the system without doing any damage to anything.

koya1893
02-07-2011, 06:06 AM
What portion do you not understand 1/2 an amp per every square inch of active surface area. Or just active surface area. Example if you have 25 square inches of active surface area on one plate. You should run a maximum of 12.5 amps through each stack of the reactor if it has 25 square inches of active surface area on one plate. If you run more you will damage the plates over time and the reactor will not run efficiently. Efficiency is what this is all about. +nnnnn-nnnnn+ This is a 2 stack reactor. You could run 25 amps through this configuration max. This is actually 12.5 amps per stack, which is 12.5 amps per active surface area of one plate (25). Does that help. What governs how many amps is the the active surface area and the number of stacks. The more you have the more amps you can run. The stacks divide the total amps as given in the sample above. A one stack reacto +nnnnn- 12.5 amps max. This is an example of a 6 cell (6 gap) reactor. It goes, plates, cells, stacks, and reactor. If every body understands the terms and they become standard then there will be less misunderstandings. +nnnnn- this has 7 plates, 6 cells, and 1 stack in this reactor.

This is the type of "thread" I am referring to, questions are being asked without understanding the basic terms used in the process. It is really frustrating, at least for me and several others try to answer the question saying the same but they asked over and over again.Take the time to note these terms and apply and use the answers being given. If you look at Myold's answer and apply them you have yourself an efficient cell. the configuration example given above is the ideal set up unless you are running for a long time, then you need to add a 6th biplor to keep the cell cool and use less amps. You will have something like this -NNNNNN+NNNNNN-, you can built a cell in this configuration and use the mixture to govern the amps draw if you are not runnin a PWM, you can mix it light like 1 bl. per 1 gl. or 3.5lb. to 1 gl. of water.

lhazleton
02-07-2011, 10:06 AM
C'mon now, Ben. I know for a fact that you love repeating yourself!:D

koya1893
02-07-2011, 02:13 PM
I guess that is why someone thought I should start all over and be a "NEWBIE". One thing I must say, if you repeat yourself enough someone might actually listen or follow what you are saying.

lhazleton
02-08-2011, 01:32 PM
Not in here, Ben!:D
Maybe Richard will be allowed back in & he can spread his bullsh1t around again. He loved repeating himself to anyone dumb enough to listen.:D:D

borescopeit
02-22-2011, 10:28 PM
A good rule of thumb for plate area is 1/2 to 1 sq.in per volt. That,s plate area in the water. 1/16th gaskets.
wet cells are a waste of time and energy , they create too much heat.:(
Hope that helps. .....jesse


That is freaking stupid!
I do have 10" by 12" plates, working size within gaskets boundaries is 8.5" by 10.5". 8 stacks divided into 2 blocks with 7N:
1 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
2 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+

My plates total is 66 that is 33 plates on each side. My Alternator feeds 14.2VDC to the cells. That means 1.77V. My KOH is 21% running at 60 AMP. Gives out around 4LPM.

I cannot believe, if I calculate correctly, that I can load my cell up to 1000 AMP? What are these calculations are coming from?

I think right AMP load is a balance between the total amperage drawing on the cell + your feed wires gauge without overheating over safe to touch temperature + stable optimat temperature of the cell + HHO production with minimal heat + and many more factors!

MMV @ 100% efficiency promises you 1LPM for each 10 AMP drawn @ 13.2VDC. That means that theoretically a cell that runs safely without blowing fuses, melting power wires and sending no steam into the engine is gonna produce no more than 1 LPM for each 10 AMPs.

Most cells produce 1 LPM for every 18-25 AMP and that means big flaws in the cell design, electrolyte mixture (i.e. quality), electrolyte circulation, etc.

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 07:32 AM
That is freaking stupid!
I do have 10" by 12" plates, working size within gaskets boundaries is 8.5" by 10.5". 8 stacks divided into 2 blocks with 7N:
1 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
2 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+

My plates total is 66 that is 33 plates on each side. My Alternator feeds 14.2VDC to the cells. That means 1.77V. My KOH is 21% running at 60 AMP. Gives out around 4LPM.

I cannot believe, if I calculate correctly, that I can load my cell up to 1000 AMP? What are these calculations are coming from?

I think right AMP load is a balance between the total amperage drawing on the cell + your feed wires gauge without overheating over safe to touch temperature + stable optimat temperature of the cell + HHO production with minimal heat + and many more factors!

MMV @ 100% efficiency promises you 1LPM for each 10 AMP drawn @ 13.2VDC. That means that theoretically a cell that runs safely without blowing fuses, melting power wires and sending no steam into the engine is gonna produce no more than 1 LPM for each 10 AMPs.

Most cells produce 1 LPM for every 18-25 AMP and that means big flaws in the cell design, electrolyte mixture (i.e. quality), electrolyte circulation, etc.

Now what you have said is very good. Let me just add to it. In your case you are running 8 series cells, in 6 series stacks, in 2 separate reactors in parallel. This means that you are running 1.775 volts per cell and 10 amps per stack. Your 4lpm is OK for your setup but you can can do better and Bio has given you one of the clues in a different thread. What configuration are your input and exit ports? Are your ports insulated? This will help determine how efficient your set up is. I think you have some room to make more gas with a few changes. Looks and sounds like you have an excellent build.

I run 25 6 X 6 plates 8 series cells, 3 series stacks and at 13.8 volts, 28 amps and produce over 1 liter per 10 amps. Now that is only 9.33 amps per stack. OK I finally said it. To do this though everything has to be just right and not in a car. I am saying everything!!! This includes ambient temperature. So because conditions very in the real world 1 liter per 10 amps is very good and hard to average. There is still more room for improvement, in my case at least, and I am continually working on it. Now it is much more important to know how to use what you make to get any useful benefit out of the HHO. Even an inefficient reactor/plate design can produce useful gains if everything else is right both in cleaner exhaust and mileage. Remember I can not prove any of this or refuse too. LOL :D

lhazleton
02-23-2011, 07:42 AM
LOL>> I just read this & you're right......it is stupid.
Voltage has nothing to do with active plate area. The general rule of thumb is to not exceed .5 amps per sq. in. of active area to prevent plate degradation.
With an active surface area of 89.25 sq. in., 44.625 amps. would be the sweet spot.

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
Now what you have said is very good. Let me just add to it. In your case you are running 8 series cells, in 6 series stacks, in 2 separate reactors in parallel. This means that you are running 1.775 volts per cell and 10 amps per stack. Your 4lpm is OK for your setup but you can can do better and Bio has given you one of the clues in a different thread. What configuration are your input and exit ports? Are your ports insulated? This will help determine how efficient your set up is. I think you have some room to make more gas with a few changes. Looks and sounds like you have an excellent build.

I run 25 6 X 6 plates 8 series cells, 3 series stacks and at 13.8 volts, 28 amps and produce over 1 liter per 10 amps. Now that is only 9.33 amps per stack. OK I finally said it. To do this though everything has to be just right and not in a car. I am saying everything!!! This includes ambient temperature. So because conditions very in the real world 1 liter per 10 amps is very good and hard to average. There is still more room for improvement, in my case at least, and I am continually working on it. Now it is much more important to know how to use what you make to get any useful benefit out of the HHO. Even an inefficient reactor/plate design can produce useful gains if everything else is right both in cleaner exhaust and mileage. Remember I can not prove any of this or refuse too. LOL :D

Thank you for your sweet comment on what I said. I am still working on the cell to lower AMP per LPM output and hope to get to 10LPM @ 100 AMP load since alternator is 220AMP in my semi truck.

I already know of some weak spots in my electrical connections - mains feed wires. I have dual #8 OFC on both positive and negative. Also, I designed my own plates with terminals in both directions, thus I am attaching the electrical source to bath opposite ends of the plates. This minimizes voltage drop across the SS material, cause the SS has to much of resistance in it.

What I am planning to add is continuous duty water pump rated at 3GPM - that will assure the cell always gets needed amount of electrolyte flow through it.

Also, I installed DuPont filter on gas output line to the bubbler in order to constantly filter electrolyte. Main reason for that - yellow metal fittings oxidize like crazy and the oxidized metal particles start gathering inside the cell forming short circuit sport thus destroying the plates in those places.

Big benefit of this mid filter is in 99% foam suppression. The cartridge is 20 micron rolled fabric string (bought it in Menards). Other cartridges do the opposite.

Secondly, I do have two more filters after bubbler - first one is wet, second one 5 micron dry.

I am programming my own control unit under .NET Microframework to take care of temperature control, bar pressure, amps, etc.

Another thing I will add soon is 35 Farad Electrolitic BOSS Capacitor before MOSFETS in my PWM. This will ensure constant readiness of AMPs needed for the cell to perform its job.

Anything more? Probably... I already put around $2,800 into my Dry Cell project.

As to the electrolyte ratio, I do use KOH at 21% but will bring it up to 28% when my Hazmat shipment arrives.

P.S. As to my test environment - no work bench, just real 12L diesel truck always on the go.

Please see attached pics.

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
Lee here is something to think about in regards to Voltage and amps. If you control your amperage with electrolyte concentration and have a constant 13.8 volts but now you very the active surface area of the plate.... What happens to the voltage and amperage and why?

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 09:58 AM
The general rule of thumb is to not exceed .5 amps per sq. in. of active area to prevent plate degradation.
With an active surface area of 89.25 sq. in., 44.625 amps. would be the sweet spot.

Oh, sh*t, my cell is too big then! According to the calculations it is capable of 44.625 amps * 8 stacks = 357 amps load where theoretically I can get 24-35 LPM! But where can I get so many amps?

I am thinking of buying 8KW diesel generator to produce those 357 amps! ;)

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 10:13 AM
Lee here is something to think about in regards to Voltage and amps. If you control your amperage with electrolyte concentration and have a constant 13.8 volts but now you very the active surface area of the plate.... What happens to the voltage and amperage and why?

When your voltage is high your amps are low. When you decrease resistance of the circuit (cell electrolyte) you raise amps drawn and drop voltage. That is Ohm's law.

In order to preserve your voltage to the cell you must eliminate any resistive connections, etc.:

1. Increase your feed wire gauge (lets say from #4 up to #1 OFC).
2. Shorten all your wires as much as possible.
3. Make sure your wires are close to cold temp because if you are losing heat through your circuits instead of the cell plates - you rob your cell of additional amps. Theoretically ideal electrical design will transfer 90% of the volts/amps. Bad connections will cut your production a big time.
4. Use less of not soldered connections, because with any additional wires cut you add more resistance.
5. Measure conductivity of your circuit from alternator to the cell plates. If it has higher Ohm (i.e. 1.2 MOhm) than your cell (i.e. 1.0 MOhm) - your failed somewhere.

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 10:15 AM
Thank you for your sweet comment on what I said. I am still working on the cell to lower AMP per LPM output and hope to get to 10LPM @ 100 AMP load since alternator is 220AMP in my semi truck.

I already know of some weak spots in my electrical connections - mains feed wires. I have dual #8 OFC on both positive and negative. Also, I designed my own plates with terminals in both directions, thus I am attaching the electrical source to bath opposite ends of the plates. This minimizes voltage drop across the SS material, cause the SS has to much of resistance in it.

What I am planning to add is continuous duty water pump rated at 3GPM - that will assure the cell always gets needed amount of electrolyte flow through it.

Also, I installed DuPont filter on gas output line to the bubbler in order to constantly filter electrolyte. Main reason for that - yellow metal fittings oxidize like crazy and the oxidized metal particles start gathering inside the cell forming short circuit sport thus destroying the plates in those places.

Big benefit of this mid filter is in 99% foam suppression. The cartridge is 20 micron rolled fabric string (bought it in Menards). Other cartridges do the opposite.

Secondly, I do have two more filters after bubbler - first one is wet, second one 5 micron dry.

I am programming my own control unit under .NET Microframework to take care of temperature control, bar pressure, amps, etc.

Another thing I will add soon is 35 Farad Electrolitic BOSS Capacitor before MOSFETS in my PWM. This will ensure constant readiness of AMPs needed for the cell to perform its job.

Anything more? Probably... I already put around $2,800 into my Dry Cell project.

As to the electrolyte ratio, I do use KOH at 21% but will bring it up to 28% when my Hazmat shipment arrives.

P.S. As to my test environment - no work bench, just real 12L diesel truck always on the go.


That is one sweet setup. Thank you for the great pictures. I tend to do better with pictures. LOL I am impressed to see that you have springs on the the build. I went to that to prevent loosing too. I have found that adding a stiffener around the edge where the bolts also makes a much tighter build and aids in the loosing problem. I have seen some great stiffeners made out of stainless but mine are just mild steal and powder coated.

In my experience I have gotten much better numbers by not using a pump and separating the units into smaller units. With such a large number of plates cooling needs more flow and that is why you need a pump. The down side of that is that this creates a steady flow of electrolyte out the output ports and increases current leakage. When the flow is broken up with gas which has a high resistance and less liquid it tends to slow this down and current goes where it should because it is easier. The balance is critical and so port size and location come into play in a big way. If you are not insulating your ports with Weldon 16, you need to study up on that. You will see measurable differences.

Are your plates media blasted? If not this will also give you another boost.
Duel connections are good. One more question, how long have you run the reactor and what kind of results are you getting? Keep it up. Great job.

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 11:09 AM
That is one sweet setup. Thank you for the great pictures. I tend to do better with pictures.
Thank you! I am taking pics with my DroidX and it sucks a big time. When I have all my ideas implemented will record a video and post it on YouTube.


LOL I am impressed to see that you have springs on the the build. I went to that to prevent loosing too. I have found that adding a stiffener around the edge where the bolts also makes a much tighter build and aids in the loosing problem. I have seen some great stiffeners made out of stainless but mine are just mild steal and powder coated.
Yes, after I figured out the right tension compression springs and installed them - no leaks at all.

Another thing about gasket material I use, it is not neoprene, but EPDM 1/16" 55-65 durometer, 3/4" cut width on the edges. The EPDM is the best for KOH!
I but it very cheap 3" x 25" roll for $90 shipped from Rubber Cal. Great guys!


In my experience I have gotten much better numbers by not using a pump and separating the units into smaller units. With such a large number of plates cooling needs more flow and that is why you need a pump. The down side of that is that this creates a steady flow of electrolyte out the output ports and increases current leakage. When the flow is broken up with gas which has a high resistance and less liquid it tends to slow this down and current goes where it should because it is easier.
I do completely get your point and expect it for sure.
My plan is to cheat the system! I will install bypass ball valve and along with circulative cooling of the electrolyte will be able to set up needed flow of the fluid through the cell. It is big, needs cooling and it lacks a lot of fluid when working hard. With the pump installed I want to boost my production for about 30-40%. I see that as real possibility. Will update on the success and will post pictures of the setup.


The balance is critical and so port size and location come into play in a big way. If you are not insulating your ports with Weldon 16, you need to study up on that. You will see measurable differences.
My ports all use 3/8" Bard to 3/8" NPT fittings on the cell.
I have three output ports, two input ports. Output ports go into transition to 5/8" PEX. So I have a free flow of gas there.

I plan to replace all yellow metal fittings with 316L ones in order to eliminate any source of corrosion inside the system. That will be another $100-150 to add up to the cost.

I will check on your Weldon 16 for sure.



Are your plates media blasted? If not this will also give you another boost.
Duel connections are good.

Yes and no. I have 44 plates blasted, others polished. Want to see how they look after conditioning.

As to the connections, I am planning to apply a lot of electrical conductive to the terminals and on top of them put shrink tubing.



One more question, how long have you run the reactor and what kind of results are you getting? Keep it up. Great job.
I have ran it for about 3 weeks, outputting around 4 LPM. Engine works way more smoother but no visible results on fuel economy yet.

Amp draw loads the alternator a bit and I assume that the generated gas recoups the waisted HP to run extra amps.

With my 12L engine I am shooting to produce at least 12LPM and then I will watch the results.

Another thing that troubles me is my POWER MOSFET. With 100% duty @ 70AMP it is OK, but when I lower it down it starts heating like crazy. My idea is to make dual N-channel bridge where electronically I will swap the mosfets with lower duty in order to lower the heat build up on a single mosfet.

Another idea is to run single mosfet at 100% duty, but when I need to lover the duty, I will be able to reverse polarity on the cell with two mosfets . Do you get my idea? It will look like this:

100% Duty - 100% duty on 1st mosfet (+- to the cell),
80% Duty - 40% duty on 1st mosfet (+- to the cell), other 40% duty on 2nd mosfet (-+ to the cell)
and so on.

Also, I will be able to switch mosfets lets say every hour changing polarity of the electrodes and prolong my cell life. Will do the tests and see what is worth of.

Attached is my design of gaskets with the plates. Will redesign them a bit for my next cell in the future.

lhazleton
02-23-2011, 01:13 PM
Lee here is something to think about in regards to Voltage and amps. If you control your amperage with electrolyte concentration and have a constant 13.8 volts but now you very the active surface area of the plate.... What happens to the voltage and amperage and why?

Carter,
Why are you trying to get me to think this late in the day?
You know dam# well that this old grey-matter thingy shuts down before noon:D

Borescopeit,
Beautiful build! You can tell that you really took your time with the build. Very impressive indeed!:cool:

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 02:18 PM
Carter,
Why are you trying to get me to think this late in the day?
You know dam# well that this old grey-matter thingy shuts down before noon

My grey-matter thingy never got turned on!! :eek:

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 04:25 PM
Carter,
the "Weld On 16" you recommend is for permanent sealing of ports? I was trying a few other things but the did not hold completely.

Does this stuff stick acrylic/polypropylene to metals as dead to the ground? Can I use it on the threads as well as barb connections?

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 05:43 PM
the "Weld On 16" you recommend is for permanent sealing of ports? I was trying a few other things but the did not hold completely.

Does this stuff stick acrylic/polypropylene to metals as dead to the ground? Can I use it on the threads as well as barb connections?

Weldon 16 will stick to media blasted stainless. It will not stick to smooth stainless or even sanded stainless. It is made to glue acrylic together. Acrylic to acrylic not metal. Larry found out that it sticks on metal when media blasted and it is not affected by the heat or electrolyte. I had been using a dental acrylic which is 100 times more expensive which also worked for a couple years or so. You insulate the ports around the edges and on to the plate for at least 1/4 of an inch around the port. Both sides should meet and glue together forming a grommet that is not removable. I fill up most of the port and then remove it with a dremel tool after it is dried. My ports are made slightly bigger than required just for this purpose so I leave an acrylic edge all around the port. It does not work on threads. Hope that helps.

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 05:55 PM
Weldon 16 will stick to media blasted stainless. It will not stick to smooth stainless or even sanded stainless. It is made to glue acrylic together. Acrylic to acrylic not metal. Larry found out that it sticks on metal when media blasted and it is not affected by the heat or electrolyte. I had been using a dental acrylic which is 100 times more expensive which also worked for a couple years or so. You insulate the ports around the edges and on to the plate for at least 1/4 of an inch around the port. Both sides should meet and glue together forming a grommet that is not removable. I fill up most of the port and then remove it with a dremel tool after it is dried. My ports are made slightly bigger than required just for this purpose so I leave an acrylic edge all around the port. It does not work on threads. Hope that helps.

I still cannot get it.
Do you insulate holes on the plates to stop current leak, or you work with the fittings? Do you have any pictures to show? And what is the reason for doing that?

P.S. After rereading your post I got your idea. So the thickness of the layer is close to zero. Right? Since you want your plates to have enough space between to let the electrolyte flow?

After I disassembled my cell a weak ago to see how my design worked out, on about 40% of the plates I saw big current leak (bottom port for e-lyte supply). My wide gas output ports are perfect there.

Have you looked into the PDF I attached?

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 06:22 PM
Yes I did look at your plate design. You will have leakage on the bottom and limited amount showing but still there on the top port. Insulating both will bring your efficiency up.

borescopeit
02-23-2011, 06:30 PM
Yes I did look at your plate design. You will have leakage on the bottom and limited amount showing but still there on the top port. Insulating both will bring your efficiency up.

Thank you for healthy advice!

Do you insulate each plate or go one after every second plate?

myoldyourgold
02-23-2011, 06:37 PM
Each plates ports are insulated.