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Julian
01-23-2011, 04:03 PM
I am new to this. I am trying to find a solution using pure water without any electrolyte added. Can this be done with reasonable effectiveness?
Thanks

lhazleton
01-23-2011, 04:51 PM
Won't happen. Pure water won't allow the electrical process to function.

waterbugs
01-25-2011, 02:51 AM
not sure but there are some unit that you buy that are professionally made for welding and cooking that don't use any electrolyte. I wish I have one of those and open one up to see how the hell they do it. I believe they are in china and they are not cheap.

Julian
01-25-2011, 06:32 AM
Thanks for replying.

There must be some way of generating hho without the use of chemicals. I think the whole "clean energy" idea ruined if the solution is toxic.

Is there really no way of electrolyting pure water (or tap water)?

koya1893
01-26-2011, 12:00 PM
not sure but there are some unit that you buy that are professionally made for welding and cooking that don't use any electrolyte. I wish I have one of those and open one up to see how the hell they do it. I believe they are in china and they are not cheap.

When you find the info, please share it. I've purchase several units with claims such as the one you mentioned and reverse engineered them. From my knowledge of how this process works, you need some form of electrotyte to have conductivity to take place, that's probably not the correct term to use but you need the electrolyte. Salt is good for experimental purpose, but not to rely on for large production.

Farrahday
01-30-2011, 03:39 PM
Thanks for replying.

There must be some way of generating hho without the use of chemicals. I think the whole "clean energy" idea ruined if the solution is toxic.

Is there really no way of electrolyting pure water (or tap water)?

What exactly are you suggesting is toxic that is getting out into the environment?

In a correctly designed and constructed cell with minimum electrolyte to give the current you require, most of the electrolyte stays put. It is a catalyst so increases the reactions required to ultimately evolve gas, but does not itself take part in the reaction.

If you can minimise the tiny amounts of liquid water that are carried in the gases by using good bubblers and filters, then very little electrolytic compound will even reach the engine.

And, there are far less corrosive electrolytes than KOH available. I'm still puzzled by why so many people seem to feel the need to saturate the water with an electrolyte rather than just use the required amount to do the job!

koya1893
01-30-2011, 09:04 PM
What exactly are you suggesting is toxic that is getting out into the environment?

In a correctly designed and constructed cell with minimum electrolyte to give the current you require, most of the electrolyte stays put. It is a catalyst so increases the reactions required to ultimately evolve gas, but does not itself take part in the reaction.

If you can minimise the tiny amounts of liquid water that are carried in the gases by using good bubblers and filters, then very little electrolytic compound will even reach the engine.

And, there are far less corrosive electrolytes than KOH available. I'm still puzzled by why so many people seem to feel the need to saturate the water with an electrolyte rather than just use the required amount to do the job!

I find myself wondering at times, what polutant or toxic chemical being induced into the enviroment. I use to use KOH as suggested from here, but it was hard to get. Then I found out through a pioneer of the process to use NaOH instead because it is used to make soap and it is readily available in a amish store near me. So if NaOH is use to make soap, I am not inducing anything more than soap residue. Additionally, the 3.5 lb per gl. of water is ideal mix to avoid freezing in the winter. I've ran multiple test with my cell: the 3.5 lb. per gl, down to 1 lb. per gl. of water.

Two things I determined not to use high mixture:
1, I can run my cell brute force and not use a PWM (less expense)
2, low mixture keeps the solution clear.

Now that I am experimenting with the "Gustav cell" it even requires low mixture to 250 mg per gl. of water and still not use a PWM.

Farrahday
01-31-2011, 07:30 PM
Most people do not realise that adding and electrolyte, while being a catalyst and providing more current to produce more gas, actually raises the over-voltage potential of a cell or electrolyser.

For example, if you had a cell operating at maximum efficiency, 1.27 volts, just water, then by adding an electrolyte this voltage would no longer be enough and electrolysis would cease. To get electrolysis occurring again, you would have to be raise the voltage, hence reducing over-voltage efficiency.

This is not really ever noticed in practice, because most people operate their cells well above optimum over-voltage potential. This is just to say that there is a definite and very real trade-off when using an electrolyte.

Hence a compromise always has to be made between increasing the over-voltage potential and drawing enough current to provide enough gas.

Whether or not you are employing a PWM, it is still brute force Faraday electrolysis. People on this forum seem to use a PWM simply to regulate the heating of their electrolysers, but this was never the real purpose behind the PWM. The real purpose of a PWM had nothing at all to do with simply regulating power!

Roland Jacques
02-03-2011, 11:32 AM
Farrah
What electrolyte do you use and what voltage do you operate your cells at?

Farrahday
02-03-2011, 03:11 PM
Farrah
What electrolyte do you use and what voltage do you operate your cells at?

If and when I do use an electrolyte, I use Anhydrous Sodium Sulphate as it's far less caustic than either NaOH or KOH, and so relatively user-friendly. Whenever possible I use just tap water with no added electrolyte.

However, I'm not particularly interested in the brute force Faraday electrolysis that everyone else here is employing in their boosters. To me the obvious limitations of Faraday electrolysis simply does not warrant my time and effort.

I'm on rather a different mission, and have been for some time, so I experiment with all manner of strange cell configurations, voltages and input signals.

Roland Jacques
02-03-2011, 07:05 PM
If and when I do use an electrolyte, I use Anhydrous Sodium Sulphate as it's far less caustic than either NaOH or KOH, and so relatively user-friendly. Whenever possible I use just tap water with no added electrolyte.

However, I'm not particularly interested in the brute force Faraday electrolysis that everyone else here is employing in their boosters. To me the obvious limitations of Faraday electrolysis simply does not warrant my time and effort.

I'm on rather a different mission, and have been for some time, so I experiment with all manner of strange cell configurations, voltages and input signals.

Thanks Farrah.

I have followed some of your other projects / ...
Did you ever conclude anything on the Mookie Cell?

Farrahday
02-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Thanks Farrah.

I have followed some of your other projects / ...
Did you ever conclude anything on the Mookie Cell?

No, not yet. Everythings on hold until the spring when I'm having a decent size, purpose built, shed-come-lab constructed.

Jdawg
04-10-2011, 12:56 AM
All I know is, (don't come down on me for this, because I'm stating what I know and what I've seen), people have managed to separate water into its basic components WITHOUT using electrolyte, (Stan Meyer, whom I do not believe was a con artist, and others), and what you will notice is that for every instance of this, the person has not stuck by the rules of conventional electrolysis. Its just interesting. The systems they utilize usually have to do with high voltage (like, over 40,000v) and very low amperage draw. There's things about HHO we are still figuring out, and the best ways to research are doing it yourself. I'm convinced there are ways of designing effective electrolysers which do not require electrolyte. Call me crazy, but people HAVE DONE IT.

Keep an open mind, but not so much that your brain falls out :)

keiththevp
04-10-2011, 04:19 AM
Jdawg, research exciting the gas molecules with various different light wavelengths, high voltage, resonance, effects under vacuum, applying magnetics to further reduce the strength of the water molecule, various electrical signals. (there are a million ways to apply a voltage to a cell in many different signal waveforms) These are the only ways that I can think of to use straight distilled water, not tap water with contaminants, to possibly make electrolysis more efficient.

Has anyone made this work and PROVEN it for a fact, NO!! But many have tried and you can too. Maybe you will get lucky and stumble upon the magic frequency to disassociate water with little to no power.

Jdawg
04-10-2011, 12:52 PM
Yeah, it seems like a long shot. Technically, discovering how to do that would defy one of the laws of thermodynamics.

Although, Meyer's videos look extremely hard to fake.... Not to mention that despite the fact that you can get a patent for anything, even if it doesn't even work... (lol), The patent office would NOT give it to him until he actually brought in his "fuel cell" sytem and demonstrated to the group of observing scientists that it produced an insanely large ammount of HHO, with no electrolyte, and while it remained cool to the touch. The power draw was also in the range of miliamps.

I don't know about you, but I consider written unanimous consent from a throng of previously-skeptical scientists proof enough :)

Sources:

http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4936961

keiththevp
04-10-2011, 10:27 PM
What I consider proof is an unbiased review and replication from someone with a respected reputation. I have yet to see the MANY MANY exaggerated claims over the years come true or be replicated even though I wanted them to work.

As far as patents go your device or invention DOES NOT have to work or be necessarily true to obtain a patent. This is because most inventors have the idea and a very crude prototype that they patent in order to safely obtain the funding to buy a real prototype that would prove their concepts.

Jdawg
04-10-2011, 11:51 PM
I can totally see where your coming from, and I respect that. Hey can you answer my dumb question on the forums under thread, "Question about arcing current...?" I really need an answer and I'm sure its pretty obvious. Just if you have time or anything, you know. Thanks.

pwteng
04-30-2011, 03:43 AM
has anyone tried this ?
i have a power source bought a stun gun that should work 150k vdc anybody up to this?