PDA

View Full Version : The Best Cell Ive seen



Madjeff66
07-31-2008, 05:46 AM
I have been looking into HHO for about 2 months now. This in my opinion is the best cell design I've seen. It is a sealed cell, closed loop system. I can see adding a heater and pump to prevent freezing in winter. The end's of your plates and all electrical connections are external to the cell. And you can just add plates for different configurations. Here are a link to zero's you tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uEHF8wGNcs&feature=user

dennis13030
07-31-2008, 09:38 AM
I like it.

computerclinic
07-31-2008, 10:01 AM
Awsome generator setup...and those plates they are using are huge! Very cool design..I just wonder how much of an issue it would be to take it apart for maintenance and cleaning without compromising the seals when put back together

BoyntonStu
07-31-2008, 10:04 AM
Awsome generator setup...and those plates they are using are huge! Very cool design..I just wonder how much of an issue it would be to take it apart for maintenance and cleaning without compromising the seals when put back together


For a $1,000 unit (guessing), perhaps extra seals?

That is why my new "BoyntonPot" design.

I have always liked tubes vs plates.

Cheaper and easier to build.


BoyntonStu

daveczrn
07-31-2008, 10:35 AM
i do plan on building one of these types of cells as well. I'm guessing the solenoid is to just turn the generator on and off?

has anyone else built one of these on the site yet?

computerclinic
07-31-2008, 12:34 PM
I would like to experiment with tubes, too...The only thing holding me from it is how to keep even spacing between them...I see lots of ideas out there on how to do this, but I havent gotten a really clear picture of spacing methods yet.

Tube design interests me because the bubbles will knock eachother loose as they flow upwards, eliminating bubbles from sticking around on the plates. Tubes look to be easier to work with compared to plates..It just boils down to spacing...

BoyntonStu
07-31-2008, 12:56 PM
I would like to experiment with tubes, too...The only thing holding me from it is how to keep even spacing between them...I see lots of ideas out there on how to do this, but I havent gotten a really clear picture of spacing methods yet.

Tube design interests me because the bubbles will knock eachother loose as they flow upwards, eliminating bubbles from sticking around on the plates. Tubes look to be easier to work with compared to plates..It just boils down to spacing...


To space tubes in my BoyntonPot I plan to use plastic spacers like the kind used by Zero and others.

SS cooking pot section tubes have appreciable thickness that resists deformation bending and should be able to take the pressure from tight spacers. Try pushing in the sides of your SS pot.


BoyntonStu

Madjeff66
07-31-2008, 03:26 PM
Sid Young at( http://fireinthewater.com ) was the man that designed the system when he was with EBN. I will be getting mine from Sid. It is his baby. He also has some great HHO calculator spread sheets bottom of his home page.
Scarecrow and ZeroFossilFuels are full of information. Kudos to them for all they have given us.
There are some video's on you tube showing the cell being taken apart for reconfiguration. allot of maintenance will depend on what you use for electrolyte and Heat, amps etc.
The nice thing this is it's a closed loop system. so you have the reservoir the pumps new electrolyte threw the cell and back to the reservoir. which means you can add a pump, filter. heat exchanger. heater(for stopping freezing in winter when not in use). I would Imagen the the flow of water through the cell wood knock any bubbles that stick to the plates on some sells
I have seen closed loop systems with tubs, They have CCVC end caps with 2 circles cut within each other 1 set for each set of tubes. the plumbing for the inlet and HHO exhaust is configured in the end caps. The same concept as the Sid cell but there Top and bottom caps not end caps. Get to work tube builders!
:)

The price is resonable! the cell is about about 300.00 depending on size. dont forget you can make it as big as you want.

Madjeff66
07-31-2008, 09:25 PM
Sid Young at( http://fireinthewater.com ) was the man that designed the system when he was with EBN. I will be getting mine from Sid. It is his baby. He also has some great HHO calculator spread sheets bottom of his home page.
Scarecrow and ZeroFossilFuels are full of information. Kudos to them for all they have given us.
There are some video's on you tube showing the cell being taken apart for reconfiguration. allot of maintenance will depend on what you use for electrolyte and Heat, amps etc.
The nice thing this is it's a closed loop system. so you have the reservoir the pumps new electrolyte threw the cell and back to the reservoir. which means you can add a pump, filter. heat exchanger. heater(for stopping freezing in winter when not in use). I would Imagen the the flow of water through the cell wood knock any bubbles that stick to the plates on some sells
I have seen closed loop systems with tubs, They have CCVC end caps with 2 circles cut within each other 1 set for each set of tubes. the plumbing for the inlet and HHO exhaust is configured in the end caps. The same concept as the Sid cell but there Top and bottom caps not end caps. Get to work you tube builders!http://hhoforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
:)

HomeGrown
07-31-2008, 10:44 PM
I'm currently working on my tube cell. I had it built once, but decided to rebuild it because I got ahold of a 3" stainless steel tube for a housing. It previously fit inside a 4" PVC pipe, but I'm not wanting to use PVC at all. I've also modified my individual cells to have 3 electrodes instead of 2. My outer tube is 1.00", middle tube is .75", and the inside tube is .50". There is a .06 gap (1.5mm) between the tubes. I've devised a spacing method where the center tube holds the spacers for both the inner and outer tubes. I posted this pic on another thread, but here it is again, and shows the spacers both in-place in the center tube, and laying on the bench. The new cell will consist of 7 individual 3-tube cells. I originally tried to use the center tube as a neutral or unconnected, but I didn't like the results. When I hooked power up to all 3 though, WOW. :eek:
Definately will need to look for some sort of voltage/current control for this thing. I really like the idea of tube design, as it minimizes current leakage. The positive charged tube is isolated from the rest of the water in the cell.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/autocadder/CIMG5116.jpg

BoyntonStu
07-31-2008, 10:52 PM
"A watched pot never boils"

ICEMAN.KCMO
08-03-2008, 05:56 PM
which one of those tubes is the pos? and where did you get those tubes???

HomeGrown
08-03-2008, 06:26 PM
The center tube is pos. I got the tubing from www.smallparts.com
I'm about 80% done with my rebuild, and hopefully the third time is a charm. The bench-tested model worked well on just plain tap water, although I didn't have a setup to measure LPM.

BoyntonStu
08-03-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm currently working on my tube cell. I had it built once, but decided to rebuild it because I got ahold of a 3" stainless steel tube for a housing. It previously fit inside a 4" PVC pipe, but I'm not wanting to use PVC at all. I've also modified my individual cells to have 3 electrodes instead of 2. My outer tube is 1.00", middle tube is .75", and the inside tube is .50". There is a .06 gap (1.5mm) between the tubes. I've devised a spacing method where the center tube holds the spacers for both the inner and outer tubes. I posted this pic on another thread, but here it is again, and shows the spacers both in-place in the center tube, and laying on the bench. The new cell will consist of 7 individual 3-tube cells. I originally tried to use the center tube as a neutral or unconnected, but I didn't like the results. When I hooked power up to all 3 though, WOW. :eek:
Definately will need to look for some sort of voltage/current control for this thing. I really like the idea of tube design, as it minimizes current leakage. The positive charged tube is isolated from the rest of the water in the cell.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/autocadder/CIMG5116.jpg

Did you wire your 3 tubes -+- or +-+?

What difference did you observe?

The center tube of a 3 tube cell produces gas from both sides, correct?

How long are the tubes?

BoyntonStu

HomeGrown
08-03-2008, 09:10 PM
I actually tried the tubes in both configurations, and the output appeared to be only slightly more in the -+- configuration. No LPM measurements, just seat-of-the-pants observation.

Yes, output from both sides. I originally put the 3rd tube (the .5" tube) in so the center (.75") tube would then be unconnected. This didn't seem to work very well, so I once again revamped it to add power, and was pleased with the results. The new configuration that I'm currently (re)building will be -+- because I'm working with a 3" stainless tube for the housing (actually 3.25" i.d.), which itself will be negative in polarity. I'm unsure how well my endcaps will hold up though, because I'm using UHMW. Stuff machines like Ivory soap, but it's only rated @ 180 deg. continuous, 210 deg. non-continuous peak. If the cell performs well I may opt to make endcaps out of more appropriate material.

The 1.00" dia. tubes are 5" long, .75" tubes are 5.3", and the .50 tubes are 6" in length. There will be 7 sets of 3 tubes in a tight cluster.

BoyntonStu
08-03-2008, 09:41 PM
I actually tried the tubes in both configurations, and the output appeared to be only slightly more in the -+- configuration. No LPM measurements, just seat-of-the-pants observation.

Yes, output from both sides. I originally put the 3rd tube (the .5" tube) in so the center (.75") tube would then be unconnected. This didn't seem to work very well, so I once again revamped it to add power, and was pleased with the results. The new configuration that I'm currently (re)building will be -+- because I'm working with a 3" stainless tube for the housing (actually 3.25" i.d.), which itself will be negative in polarity. I'm unsure how well my endcaps will hold up though, because I'm using UHMW. Stuff machines like Ivory soap, but it's only rated @ 180 deg. continuous, 210 deg. non-continuous peak. If the cell performs well I may opt to make endcaps out of more appropriate material.

The 1.00" dia. tubes are 5" long, .75" tubes are 5.3", and the .50 tubes are 6" in length. There will be 7 sets of 3 tubes in a tight cluster.

I calculate that the equivalent cell plate area is 66 sq inches x 2 (for both sides of the .5 tube)

pi x .5 x 42" for one side

Having the container - allows grounding to the frame.

Boyntonstu

HomeGrown
08-03-2008, 10:08 PM
I calculate that the equivalent cell plate area is 66 sq inches x 2 (for both sides of the .5 tube)

pi x .5 x 42" for one side

Having the container - allows grounding to the frame.

Boyntonstu

The .5 tube is the smallest tube. If gas production is on the - side, then it would have to be calculated on the i.d. of the 1.00 tube (.87) and on the o.d. of the .5" tube, which would be:

.5 x 3.14 x 5.3 x 7 = 58.247 (gas production area is only calculated on the tube length of the shorter .75" tube)

plus

.87 x 3.14 x 5 x 7 = 95.613

for a total production area of 153.86 sq. in.

For a brief moment I was considering not connecting the 1.00" tubes to the cell housing, and just allowing the electrolyte to create the connection between the housing and the tubes. But I figured that would only serve to create more heat, so I scrapped that idea.

BoyntonStu
08-03-2008, 10:38 PM
Sorry, but I believe that it is the smallest link in the chain that is counted.

IOW Imagine a 6x6 plate and a 1x1 plate.

The cell would be a 1 sq in cell.

Correct me if I am wrong.


BoyntonStu

HomeGrown
08-04-2008, 09:02 AM
Sorry, but I believe that it is the smallest link in the chain that is counted.

IOW Imagine a 6x6 plate and a 1x1 plate.

The cell would be a 1 sq in cell.

Correct me if I am wrong.


BoyntonStu


What part of that calculation do you not agree with? The shortest link of a chain does not define the total length of the chain.

My calculation of 153.86 represents the true working surface area of the cell: all negative, gas-producing surfaces.

In your calculation, you've calculated the actual length of the .5 tube, not the effective length. You've also (mis)calculated the inside of the .5 tube (.40 dia.), which does not produce gas.

To recap, gas is produced on the o.d. of the .50" tubes and on the i.d. of the 1.00" tubes.

Boltazar
08-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Homegrown Series or parallel How do you get power to the electrodes

BoyntonStu
08-04-2008, 01:09 PM
What part of that calculation do you not agree with? The shortest link of a chain does not define the total length of the chain.

My calculation of 153.86 represents the true working surface area of the cell: all negative, gas-producing surfaces.

In your calculation, you've calculated the actual length of the .5 tube, not the effective length. You've also (mis)calculated the inside of the .5 tube (.40 dia.), which does not produce gas.

To recap, gas is produced on the o.d. of the .50" tubes and on the i.d. of the 1.00" tubes.

"pi x .5 x 42" for one side"

That's all that needs to be calculated.


It is not where the gas is produced that defines the amps/area of a cell.

The limit is the smallest plate or tube area.

Larger plates spread the current out and produce no more gas than the smaller plate.

BoyntonStu

HomeGrown
08-04-2008, 05:18 PM
"pi x .5 x 42" for one side"

That's all that needs to be calculated.


It is not where the gas is produced that defines the amps/area of a cell.

The limit is the smallest plate or tube area.

Larger plates spread the current out and produce no more gas than the smaller plate.

BoyntonStu

If you have your aforementioned example of a 6x6 & 1x1 cell, it is agreed that the cell area is defined by the 1x1 plate. However, if in this cell you add a 2x2 plate on the opposite side of the 6x6, is not your total cell area now 5 sq. in.? Applying your logic, the cell would still be 1x1.

You are ignoring the other half of the cell, which is the 1.00 / .75 tubes. Also, why are you calculating the full length of the .5" tube?

BoyntonStu
08-04-2008, 05:31 PM
If you have your aforementioned example of a 6x6 & 1x1 cell, it is agreed that the cell area is defined by the 1x1 plate. However, if in this cell you add a 2x2 plate on the opposite side of the 6x6, is not your total cell area now 5 sq. in.? Applying your logic, the cell would still be 1x1.

You are ignoring the other half of the cell, which is the 1.00 / .75 tubes. Also, why are you calculating the full length of the .5" tube?


We have to define what we mean by cell area.

My definition is the area that limits the current.

However, if in this cell you add a 2x2 plate on the opposite side of the 6x6, is not your total cell area now 5 sq. in.?

Yes, we agree here as a simpler example below.

Place a 1x1 plate centered on each side of a 6x6 plate.

Connect - + -

I calculate 2 sq inches because you have 2 cells.

In your 3 tube cell if you do it - + - I believe that you add together the outer areas of the .5 tube and the .75 tubes.

The .5 tube 'sees' the .75 tube and the .75 tube 'sees' the 1.0 tube.

"Also, why are you calculating the full length of the .5" tube?" My bad. Should be 5.3"

So here goes: pi x .5 x 5.3 x 7 + pi x .875 x 5.3 x 7 = Your previous result Check!

Sorry, I misunderstood you before.


BoyntonStu

HomeGrown
08-04-2008, 06:02 PM
Glad that's cleared up! ;)

HomeGrown
08-04-2008, 07:20 PM
Homegrown Series or parallel How do you get power to the electrodes

Sorry Boltazar, I missed your question. :o

The cell is parallel, and the actual power connection configuration is still in the works. I will post pics when it's done. I'm playing around with a couple different ideas.