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Boltazar
08-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Got this today thought all might be interested;



"Major Discovery" From MIT Primed to Unleash Solar Revolution
Thursday 31 July 2008
by: Anne Trafton, MIT News
Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage system.


In a revolutionary leap that could transform solar power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a mainstream energy source, MIT researchers have overcome a major barrier to large-scale solar power: storing energy for use when the sun doesn't shine.

Until now, solar power has been a daytime-only energy source, because storing extra solar energy for later use is prohibitively expensive and grossly inefficient. With today's announcement, MIT researchers have hit upon a simple, inexpensive, highly efficient process for storing solar energy.

Requiring nothing but abundant, non-toxic natural materials, this discovery could unlock the most potent, carbon-free energy source of all: the sun. "This is the nirvana of what we've been talking about for years," said MIT's Daniel Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at MIT and senior author of a paper describing the work in the July 31 issue of Science. "Solar power has always been a limited, far-off solution. Now we can seriously think about solar power as unlimited and soon."

Inspired by the photosynthesis performed by plants, Nocera and Matthew Kanan, a postdoctoral fellow in Nocera's lab, have developed an unprecedented process that will allow the sun's energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases. Later, the oxygen and hydrogen may be recombined inside a fuel cell, creating carbon-free electricity to power your house or your electric car, day or night.

The key component in Nocera and Kanan's new process is a new catalyst that produces oxygen gas from water; another catalyst produces valuable hydrogen gas. The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water. When electricity - whether from a photo voltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source - runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting reaction that occurs during photosynthesis.

The new catalyst works at room temperature, in neutral pH water, and it's easy to set up, Nocera said. "That's why I know this is going to work. It's so easy to implement," he said.

"Giant Leap" for Clean Energy

Sunlight has the greatest potential of any power source to solve the world's energy problems, said Nocera. In one hour, enough sunlight strikes the Earth to provide the entire planet's energy needs for one year.

James Barber, a leader in the study of photosynthesis who was not involved in this research, called the discovery by Nocera and Kanan a "giant leap" toward generating clean, carbon-free energy on a massive scale.

"This is a major discovery with enormous implications for the future prosperity of humankind," said Barber, the Ernst Chain Professor of Biochemistry at Imperial College London. "The importance of their discovery cannot be overstated since it opens up the door for developing new technologies for energy production thus reducing our dependence for fossil fuels and addressing the global climate change problem."

"Just the Beginning"

Currently available electrolyzers, which split water with electricity and are often used industrially, are not suited for artificial photosynthesis because they are very expensive and require a highly basic (non-benign) environment that has little to do with the conditions under which photosynthesis operates.

More engineering work needs to be done to integrate the new scientific discovery into existing photo voltaic systems, but Nocera said he is confident that such systems will become a reality.

"This is just the beginning," said Nocera, principal investigator for the Solar Revolution Project funded by the Chesonis Family Foundation and co-Director of the Eni-MIT Solar Frontiers Center. "The scientific community is really going to run with this."

Nocera hopes that within 10 years, homeowners will be able to power their homes in daylight through photo voltaic cells, while using excess solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could be a thing of the past.

The project is part of the MIT Energy Initiative, a program designed to help transform the global energy system to meet the needs of the future and to help build a bridge to that future by improving today's energy systems. MITEI Director Ernest Moniz, Cecil and Ida Green Professor of Physics and Engineering Systems, noted that "this discovery in the Nocera lab demonstrates that moving up the transformation of our energy supply system to one based on renewables will depend heavily on frontier basic science."

The success of the Nocera lab shows the impact of a mixture of funding sources - governments, philanthropy, and industry. This project was funded by the National Science Foundation and by the Chesonis Family Foundation, which gave MIT $10 million this spring to launch the Solar Revolution Project, with a goal to make the large scale deployment of solar energy within 10 years.

daveczrn
08-01-2008, 01:28 PM
very intresting... 10 years and we will make our own power.... how high do you think the price of oil will be then.

Smith03Jetta
08-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Those MIT guys are wackos. Everybody knows you can't get out more than you put in. If this was true, then why isn't everybody using it. Why hasn't mainstream science discovered this before. Why did it take a 10 million dollar grant for somebody to figure this out. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH it's giving me a headache. People have been calling us wackos for ever. Now MIT has joined the wacko club. I was going to send my boy there to study science but now I'll have to send him to Berkley or someplace that will teach him more Realistic Liberal thinking instead of all this BullS#!+.

MIT has gone crazy. Who would have thunk it? Splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then putting it back together to get free energy.

That's impossible because everybody says it!!!

Smith03Jetta
08-01-2008, 02:22 PM
No really, if I had a $10,000 extra dollars to experiment with this I could have it powering my house in a couple months. All we really need to know is the building materials and it looks like they spilled the beans on that one already...

"The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water. When electricity - whether from a photo voltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source - runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting reaction that occurs during photosynthesis.

The new catalyst works at room temperature, in neutral pH water, and it's easy to set up, Nocera said. "That's why I know this is going to work. It's so easy to implement," he said."


Let's make our own foundation so we can fund our own research...

BigTruck
08-01-2008, 03:53 PM
It sure proves that we are on the right track. The government will hold it up for another 10 years trying to figure out the best way to tax it. Then they will have to wait for the lobbyist to pay them off.

Most of us need HHO now. Let's keep going and see if MIT can keep up.

How bout this for bumper sticker... HHO... We do what Detroit can't.

computerclinic
08-01-2008, 06:03 PM
Generating and capturing energy is the easy part. The true challenge is storing it and releasing enough of it on demand...

I doubt the MIT folks are off the rocker like jetta is putting it, but I do believe they are exploring in the right territory. By bettering the storage and conduction of energy, while also improving the overall application of energy usage we can overcome so many obstacles.

We have alot of people using electricity and oil. By using it wiser, while also improving the harvest and storage of energy we will not only better our economy, but also our way of life.

The gov would love to have the cake and eat it too....MIT will come through, but its like the battery that Zendd Industries has created...It is truly an awsome battery-right up until you so much as even bump into it, then it breaks.

wipeout97
08-02-2008, 06:38 PM
I used to believe the old saying that you can't get out more energy than what you put in.....that was until I visited a fire department in CA (older cousin works there). They have been using a 150% efficient hot water heater for years. Yes you heard me correct 150% efficient with a life span of 30 years. I believe at one time there was a news article he sent me from a local new station so there should be a video of it floating around youtube somewhere. Very cool times we live in ;)

Smith03Jetta
08-04-2008, 05:00 PM
I was joking with the RANT earlier. I think the MIT guys are right on with what they are doing. I only wish I had some large sheets of platinum and some cobalt metal to play with. I guess I'll just have to melt down some of my gold bullion and make some decent Hydrogen producing plates.

Smith03Jetta
08-04-2008, 07:07 PM
More details on how the system works. Not much but a better explanation than in the original article.

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=209900956&cid=NL_eet

snapper1d
08-04-2008, 07:50 PM
This is getting off topic but there are ways to get more power out from something that poweres its self.Look at this link http://www.mcqueenmachine.com/ This is a 10k generator that powers its self and still gives out power.I checked out the patent and its for real.On a patent search there is other patents similar far back as 1930.

Smith03Jetta
08-04-2008, 11:59 PM
McQueen Machine? Give me a break. Perpetual motion? Again, give me a break. You can disprove this device by looking at the heavy flywheel on the front of the machine. It's job is to cut down on vibration and speed fluctuation (Loss of Energy) and keep the device running smoothly. It would not be needed if the machine was able to run with no friction (Loss of Energy).

Next Please!

mangyhyena
08-25-2008, 10:37 AM
Looks promising. Hope it works out so we can all have renewable, cheap energy.

But I'm pessimistic about it getting into our hands. The reason is that there are many, many solutions to our current energy problems that have been addressed with inventions in the last 50 years. Every last one of them has been suppressed so that oil and coal can maintain a joint monopoly. Why would this technology be any different?

IMHO, there is one and only one way we're going to get cheap, renewable energy. People like us have to develop a process and adapt it to off-the-shelf machinery or equipment to do it. Then we have to literally give it away to others interested in getting off the roller coaster in the form of a complete parts list, assembly instructions, and a cover letter urging people to photocopy it and give it away to anyone they know interested in getting off oil and coal. And we can not ask permission from our government once we have such a system. Any new invention must be passed along to others, quietly, so that by the time the powers that be realize it exists it would be too late to do anything about it. Ideally, it would already be up and running in other countries.

There is definitely a power structure in place to literally crush any competition to oil, as well as coal/nuclear electric generation. No manufacturer will allowed to take a new energy system and mass produce it. And inventors attempting to market such devices will be crushed. Stan Meyer found this out when he was blatantly murdered. Unlike Stan, we now know what will happen to us if we try to stay within the current system in order to bring cheap, renewable energy to the public. That system exists to crush us and keep the population enslaved to oil and coal/nuclear power. We must go around that system if we're to be successful. There is no other way.

smartHHO
08-25-2008, 11:52 AM
very intresting... 10 years and we will make our own power.... how high do you think the price of oil will be then.

Oil being lower would be a good thing for everything. Most people think oil is for cars only. I watched a History channel on Oil last night that the wife had taped. If we cut off from oil all together, you would have a ton of stuff. I mean, shoes, streets, tires, clothes, oils in lubing. There are so many applications being used, it's insain. I am sure if the environmentalists seen how much oil is used and they would have to give up their Starbucks, they would shut up. Plastics come from it too. I am going to make a video of it and eventually make a link. Would be good for gas prices, then all of those items would get cheaper.

snapper1d
08-26-2008, 02:58 PM
Well McQueens machine has to work or he couldnt get a patent for it.Now I dont think you could get much energy out of it because of the load it has to just run its self.
10,000k is a lot of power but if it takes 9500 to run it you would only have enough to run 5 -100 watt blubs.Not much worth the money to put into something like that if thats all you could get from it.

DigitalMocking
08-29-2008, 10:31 PM
This is getting off topic but there are ways to get more power out from something that poweres its self.Look at this link http://www.mcqueenmachine.com/ This is a 10k generator that powers its self and still gives out power.I checked out the patent and its for real.On a patent search there is other patents similar far back as 1930.

I really hope you're not that gullible. That's a link for a pyramid scam site. There is NO MACHINE in the world that produces more energy than it requires to run. none. There's no working patent for anything like that.

Q-Hack!
08-30-2008, 02:36 AM
You don't have to have an actual working device for a patent. Just an idea. You would be surprised at how many patents are awarded for something that just doesn't work.

GOplayer
08-31-2008, 09:57 AM
This is so awesome! But… MIT is in the pocket of the Government. The Government is in the pocket of the Oil and Bank industry. So once these high-powered and well financed students do solve the remaining challenges, where will the product end up? The last place will be in our homes! Come on folks, follow the money! More than half of the oil reserves are still underground! With improved drilling technologies the second half of the oil reserves will actually yield significantly more crude oil and natural gas production than the first half harvested. That means enormous profit for the handful of mega companies that are not only willing but PREPARED to protect their way of business/life! So anyone serous to believe that a technological solution that devalues the oil as a commodity will make it to the market place? Come-on and keep working! Solution will come from a basement somewhere, an inventor who is not going to be naïve to think that he/she can protect his/her invention by any patent or promises of any kind. The solution will come anonymously in a simple and easily to replicatable way. Then before the powers of current social-economical gatekeepers can do much about it, people all over the world will use the new energy source and the end of the fossil fuel are begins. Is there another way around? If so, then why are we at war? Ideology or power? Ideology is just a justification to maintain power. So let’s shift it and take the bite out of the oil. Solar or Hydrogen, perhaps the mixture of both! That is my 2 cents on this. Z

GOplayer
08-31-2008, 10:06 AM
Speaking of bumper stickers: “Yes to HOD & NO to Distributed Hydrogen!”
Folks, spread the word: Distributed Hydrogen is the coming next and possible largest fraud that people are about be fooled with once again! We must educate the public NOW! Just ask: what is the source of your distributed hydrogen you want to sell me Mr. Gas Station owner? I surely want to know!
Ah, crude oil? Perhaps natural gas? Why is that Mr. Gas station owner? Why would you want to sell me something that I can produce from a glass of water? Why would you want me to store a pressurized highly volatile Hydrogen gas in my vehicle?
Folks, let’s find the answers and solutions so these questions can be addressed with equally available alternatives so we can compete with Big Business! Do your part not only working on HOD generators but educate the public! I grab people left and right and tell them! Creating crusaders are as important as working on the HOD generators! Z

overtaker
08-31-2008, 11:16 PM
Goplayer, Well said.

DaneDHorstead
09-01-2008, 04:39 PM
You do not need a working model for most patents, with the exception of a perpetual motion device (US patent, that is).

Many applications have been made for a PM device, but to date. none have been issued.

Q-Hack!
09-01-2008, 11:22 PM
You do not need a working model for most patents, with the exception of a perpetual motion device (US patent, that is).

Many applications have been made for a PM device, but to date. none have been issued.

True, but how many patents were awarded for something that should have been labeled a perpetual motion device but instead labeled something like: "Methods for controlling the path of magnetic flux from a permanent magnet and devices incorporating the same." They didn't create a PM that worked, they just filed for a patent with a drawing.

Check out the wiki on PM and look at the patent section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

kerry k
09-02-2008, 09:38 AM
Here is a vid on the subject http://techtv.mit.edu/file/1303/
interesting stuff.

redneckgearhead34
09-18-2008, 11:29 AM
I just wanna say that I was the first one of my friends that was interested in HHO. I started building them by myself and one day I was working on one and my buddy chris came over and he started to help me. The next day he had all these great new idea he wanted to try. Now I have three of the smartest people I know working on these things. Even though we have actually improved out mpg we have found out what works.

I am just tryin to say thanks to you guys for getting and keeping me interested and involved in solving the worlds problems

IAMMIKE
09-25-2009, 05:24 PM
Got this today thought all might be interested;



"Major Discovery" From MIT Primed to Unleash Solar Revolution
Thursday 31 July 2008
by: Anne Trafton, MIT News
Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage system.


In a revolutionary leap that could transform solar power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a mainstream energy source, MIT researchers have overcome a major barrier to large-scale solar power: storing energy for use when the sun doesn't shine.

Until now, solar power has been a daytime-only energy source, because storing extra solar energy for later use is prohibitively expensive and grossly inefficient. With today's announcement, MIT researchers have hit upon a simple, inexpensive, highly efficient process for storing solar energy.

Requiring nothing but abundant, non-toxic natural materials, this discovery could unlock the most potent, carbon-free energy source of all: the sun. "This is the nirvana of what we've been talking about for years," said MIT's Daniel Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at MIT and senior author of a paper describing the work in the July 31 issue of Science. "Solar power has always been a limited, far-off solution. Now we can seriously think about solar power as unlimited and soon."

Inspired by the photosynthesis performed by plants, Nocera and Matthew Kanan, a postdoctoral fellow in Nocera's lab, have developed an unprecedented process that will allow the sun's energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases. Later, the oxygen and hydrogen may be recombined inside a fuel cell, creating carbon-free electricity to power your house or your electric car, day or night.

The key component in Nocera and Kanan's new process is a new catalyst that produces oxygen gas from water; another catalyst produces valuable hydrogen gas. The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water. When electricity - whether from a photo voltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source - runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting reaction that occurs during photosynthesis.

The new catalyst works at room temperature, in neutral pH water, and it's easy to set up, Nocera said. "That's why I know this is going to work. It's so easy to implement," he said.

"Giant Leap" for Clean Energy

Sunlight has the greatest potential of any power source to solve the world's energy problems, said Nocera. In one hour, enough sunlight strikes the Earth to provide the entire planet's energy needs for one year.

James Barber, a leader in the study of photosynthesis who was not involved in this research, called the discovery by Nocera and Kanan a "giant leap" toward generating clean, carbon-free energy on a massive scale.

"This is a major discovery with enormous implications for the future prosperity of humankind," said Barber, the Ernst Chain Professor of Biochemistry at Imperial College London. "The importance of their discovery cannot be overstated since it opens up the door for developing new technologies for energy production thus reducing our dependence for fossil fuels and addressing the global climate change problem."

"Just the Beginning"

Currently available electrolyzers, which split water with electricity and are often used industrially, are not suited for artificial photosynthesis because they are very expensive and require a highly basic (non-benign) environment that has little to do with the conditions under which photosynthesis operates.

More engineering work needs to be done to integrate the new scientific discovery into existing photo voltaic systems, but Nocera said he is confident that such systems will become a reality.

"This is just the beginning," said Nocera, principal investigator for the Solar Revolution Project funded by the Chesonis Family Foundation and co-Director of the Eni-MIT Solar Frontiers Center. "The scientific community is really going to run with this."

Nocera hopes that within 10 years, homeowners will be able to power their homes in daylight through photo voltaic cells, while using excess solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could be a thing of the past.

The project is part of the MIT Energy Initiative, a program designed to help transform the global energy system to meet the needs of the future and to help build a bridge to that future by improving today's energy systems. MITEI Director Ernest Moniz, Cecil and Ida Green Professor of Physics and Engineering Systems, noted that "this discovery in the Nocera lab demonstrates that moving up the transformation of our energy supply system to one based on renewables will depend heavily on frontier basic science."

The success of the Nocera lab shows the impact of a mixture of funding sources - governments, philanthropy, and industry. This project was funded by the National Science Foundation and by the Chesonis Family Foundation, which gave MIT $10 million this spring to launch the Solar Revolution Project, with a goal to make the large scale deployment of solar energy within 10 years.

The thread became a discussion of politics, how about the merits of the technique

jerrygoldsmith
09-26-2009, 02:38 AM
I saw one the other day where some kid used Human Hair instead of silicone.

And before that someone in Australia found a way to "print" solar panels using an inkjet printer modded out or something crazy like that.


And yet..... things like this happen every few months and we never see any results *cough cough* BIG OIL *cough cough*