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ea5fzo
09-13-2011, 02:24 PM
Well, I'm about to throw in the towel because I do not see any savings, I have a fiat panda multijet diesel 4x4 2006, 1.3 liter engine,
one of 10 plates drycell

-nnn++nnn- 0.5 lpm of HHO at 10 amps (displacement test bottle).

The engine I have made many variations, with more hho, hho less, I must say that the cell is not heated at all, as the electrolyte leads to 2% KOH.

This last week I've put my holiday to modify the signals from the sensors (which are all analog) to see if fraud on the ecu, the engine has no sensor 02.

I have begun to modify the sensor cts (coolant temp) so that the ECU see 10 degrees, placing a resistor in parallel to the sensor k of 3.9.

I modified the IAT sensor (Intake air temp) by placing a resistance of 600ohms in parallel to the sensor and 40 degrees mark.

I put a voltage regulator in line maf sensor Wref changing the input voltage of 5V to 4.8 volts, so that the ECU see readings of air flow 10% less.

All this to make the ecu delay the injection point and inject less oil, and I know you do because I lost power, but I can not save anything, the car still spending the same but now with less power.

a greeting for everyone

Read more: I need help, and not to do - HHOINFO http://hhoinformation.com/forum/topics/i-need-help-and-not-to-do#ixzz1XrHI5rAE

myoldyourgold
09-13-2011, 05:22 PM
Javier, with an efficient engine as you have it is going to be a challenge. Two major things could be happening. One the first injection is igniting the HHO and actually causing a loss in efficiency. This could be quite complicated and will not get into it at this time. I would like to know with out any adjustments to the injection, timing or anything else and injecting .5 LPM was there anything different in how the engine ran. More power felt, less power, more noise, less noise, etc.? This is important. When running more then .5 LPM with no changes did you experience any difference like asked above? The same question when running less than .5. You need to pay very careful attention to the engine performance in all three cases to see if there is any difference at all. This will help to give you some advise possibly.

We will also need to know if how your 10 plate reactor is wired. I suspece it is -nn+nn-nn+. If this is the case change it to an 8 plate reactor -nnnnnn+. This might help and after getting some answers we might be able to help. Lots of good people here.

ea5fzo
09-13-2011, 07:14 PM
Javier, with an efficient engine as you have it is going to be a challenge. Two major things could be happening. One the first injection is igniting the HHO and actually causing a loss in efficiency. This could be quite complicated and will not get into it at this time. I would like to know with out any adjustments to the injection, timing or anything else and injecting .5 LPM was there anything different in how the engine ran. More power felt, less power, more noise, less noise, etc.? This is important. When running more then .5 LPM with no changes did you experience any difference like asked above? The same question when running less than .5. You need to pay very careful attention to the engine performance in all three cases to see if there is any difference at all. This will help to give you some advise possibly.

We will also need to know if how your 10 plate reactor is wired. I suspece it is -nn+nn-nn+. If this is the case change it to an 8 plate reactor -nnnnnn+. This might help and after getting some answers we might be able to help. Lots of good people here.

thanks for the reply,
I must say that the arrangement of the plates is that -nnn++nnn- .
I noticed the engine better, more smooth with very little production of hho about 3 amp, but no profits.
if the production of hydrogen increased to more than 10 amp seems to have a bit more power but a very strange thing happens; highway and a raise of 6 miles at full throttle during the ascent I noticed that the engine is warmed little more than usual (all this without changes to the sensors, hho only)
without the hho this never happened.
seems as if the gas explodes before the correct position of the piston.
even today I retested rise when the engine is maximum and the sensors and also operated a raised temperature, but somewhat less

myoldyourgold
09-13-2011, 07:56 PM
I must say that the arrangement of the plates is that -nnn++nnn- .
I noticed the engine better, more smooth with very little production of hho about 3 amp, but no profits.
if the production of hydrogen increased to more than 10 amp seems to have a bit more power but a very strange thing happens; highway and a raise of 6 miles at full throttle during the ascent I noticed that the engine is warmed little more than usual (all this without changes to the sensors, hho only)
without the hho this never happened.
seems as if the gas explodes before the correct position of the piston.
even today I retested rise when the engine is maximum and the sensors and also operated a raised temperature, but somewhat less

Thank you for the good information. Gong to an 8 plate reactor depending on how the ports are on the plates will help. You might want to set it up to turn off at idle. This is my theory not sure if it is correct. With the initial small injection the HHO is burning that fuel so efficiently that the main injection is lacking of 02 and not getting as good of a burn as it could. Let me study this engine a little and I will stick my foot in my mouth a little more later. LOL

I am going to try and get exactly what the torque curve is on that little engine. I remember reading something about this engine and I believe it was quite efficient to begin with.

With a more efficient reactor and just the right amount of HHO you will see some gain and a smother engine and hopefully no additional heat. Do not expect to double the mileage because that engine is quite efficient as it is. I will get back to you with how much HHO you should be injecting might take a couple days and with what else I might think off after reviewing the engine specs.

ea5fzo
09-13-2011, 08:11 PM
Thank you for the good information. Gong to an 8 plate reactor depending on how the ports are on the plates will help. You might want to set it up to turn off at idle. This is my theory not sure if it is correct. With the initial small injection the HHO is burning that fuel so efficiently that the main injection is lacking of 02 and not getting as good of a burn as it could. Let me study this engine a little and I will stick my foot in my mouth a little more later. LOL

I am going to try and get exactly what the torque curve is on that little engine. I remember reading something about this engine and I believe it was quite efficient to begin with.

With a more efficient reactor and just the right amount of HHO you will see some gain and a smother engine and hopefully no additional heat. Do not expect to double the mileage because that engine is quite efficient as it is. I will get back to you with how much HHO you should be injecting might take a couple days and with what else I might think off after reviewing the engine specs.

thank you very much for your attention, I must say that the model:
opel corsa cdti 1.3 in 2004 to 2009 is the same engine

myoldyourgold
09-13-2011, 08:58 PM
Now I remember where I read about this engine in 2008 Tata motors put this engine in a Maruti (Suzuki) and I know some one who bought one and was getting about 90 miles per gallon (Imperial gallon) less than 3 L/100KM. I am sure it is not doing that good in your vehicle but in the small Suzuki it does real good. The engine has very little low end torque and max torque is between 1750 and 2500 rpm. It would help if you turn off the reactor at idle for sure. I am not sure but I think this engine injects 5 times per cycle and this is one of the reasons it gets such good mileage and causes us problems with HHO. Fiat was the one that came out with this first I think. It is a Fiat engine. There is very little room to get any gain with this engine. If set exactly right with a 7 cell (8 plate) bipolar series reactor at 2 to 5 amps and shutting off at idle you might see a little gain. At least it will clean up the exhaust and de-carbon the engine. Hope that helps

ea5fzo
09-14-2011, 03:22 AM
Now I remember where I read about this engine in 2008 Tata motors put this engine in a Maruti (Suzuki) and I know some one who bought one and was getting about 90 miles per gallon (Imperial gallon) less than 3 L/100KM. I am sure it is not doing that good in your vehicle but in the small Suzuki it does real good. The engine has very little low end torque and max torque is between 1750 and 2500 rpm. It would help if you turn off the reactor at idle for sure. I am not sure but I think this engine injects 5 times per cycle and this is one of the reasons it gets such good mileage and causes us problems with HHO. Fiat was the one that came out with this first I think. It is a Fiat engine. There is very little room to get any gain with this engine. If set exactly right with a 7 cell (8 plate) bipolar series reactor at 2 to 5 amps and shutting off at idle you might see a little gain. At least it will clean up the exhaust and de-carbon the engine. Hope that helps

maybe this engine best results only with the addition of pure water vapor

ea5fzo
09-18-2011, 03:24 PM
Now I remember where I read about this engine in 2008 Tata motors put this engine in a Maruti (Suzuki) and I know some one who bought one and was getting about 90 miles per gallon (Imperial gallon) less than 3 L/100KM. I am sure it is not doing that good in your vehicle but in the small Suzuki it does real good. The engine has very little low end torque and max torque is between 1750 and 2500 rpm. It would help if you turn off the reactor at idle for sure. I am not sure but I think this engine injects 5 times per cycle and this is one of the reasons it gets such good mileage and causes us problems with HHO. Fiat was the one that came out with this first I think. It is a Fiat engine. There is very little room to get any gain with this engine. If set exactly right with a 7 cell (8 plate) bipolar series reactor at 2 to 5 amps and shutting off at idle you might see a little gain. At least it will clean up the exhaust and de-carbon the engine. Hope that helps

you tell me to shut down the generator at idle, but he commented that at idle the engine sounds perfect.
an interesting point that I discovered today:
with the engine at idle I ****ed the gas pipe that goes to the admission and have doubled in 30 seconds, and releasing the engine to rev up slightly for a second almost.
then if we think the pilot injeccion is detrimental to hho how is it possible that more hho engine revs?
Perhaps it is you need more gas?.

ea5fzo
09-18-2011, 04:00 PM
this is what is used in Europe for common rail diesel hho

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HHO-Hydrogen-Fuel-Cell-Diesel-Tuning-Box-Module-/200577706354

myoldyourgold
09-18-2011, 04:04 PM
There is no savings using HHO at idle. The savings will come by not using HHO at idle. Less load on the alternator. It is just that simple. It takes more fuel to make HHO less fuel when not making it. This engine has less torque at idle and makes up for it with more fuel. Why make it when you do not need to. By not making HHO at idle you add to the total savings. As for how much HHO to use you need to experiment. In larger engines with lots of low end torque it might not make much difference, but will make a difference if it has an O2 sensor.

ea5fzo
09-18-2011, 04:12 PM
There is no savings using HHO at idle. The savings will come by not using HHO at idle. Less load on the alternator. It is just that simple. It takes more fuel to make HHO less fuel when not making it. This engine has less torque at idle and makes up for it with more fuel. Why make it when you do not need to. By not making HHO at idle you add to the total savings. As for how much HHO to use you need to experiment. In larger engines with lots of low end torque it might not make much difference, but will make a difference if it has an O2 sensor.


to agree, now I understand.
but how I can do to stop the generator when you lift the throttle pedal?

pd-my engine has no 02 sensor

ea5fzo
10-30-2011, 12:03 AM
I saw this on the web, graphic injeccion explains my engine according to load and revolutions.

http://www.autocity.com/documentos-tecnicos/index.html?codigoDoc=350




the new 1.3 Multijet 16v engine is running, the
unit continuously adapts the diagram and the number of injections (in addition to the amount of diesel injected). When water is at a temperature below 60 degrees C and the torque required is low, there will be two small and one large injections, very close together. When the torque increases only made two injections: one small and one large. With a high number of revolutions and a high torque application, however, we only make a shot. Finally, if the water temperature is above 60 degrees, everything changes and, in order to minimize emissions, the scheme of passing shots
to be a small, one large and one small.

myoldyourgold
10-30-2011, 12:13 PM
The multijet injection is a good possible insight as to what could be happening with a normal diesel. By this I mean that with the right amount of HHO there could be a small burn before the injection in a single injection engine which warms up the air even more resulting in a better burn. You can see that timing and amount of HHO would be very critical. To much and it will work against you trying to push the piston down and to little will not do much to get a better burn.

Here is a translation of the ariticle:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/yenom_1945/multijet.gif



Until recently, the last frontier in diesel engine technology proponents were "Common Rail" Unijet that, even given this name does not really make an injection of diesel fuel in the combustion chamber but two: a smaller initial, and a main, larger. Today it is not so, because the technicians at Fiat-GM Powertrain have put in place the "Common Rail" second generation Multijet, ie by repeated injection (3 to 5).

The mechanical principle of the two systems is the same. Already in the Unijet, the pilot injection raises temperature and pressure inside the cylinder, thus allowing, at the time of the main combustion-better combustion. Being able to divide the main injection into several smaller injections, the amount of diesel burned in the cylinder remains the same, but you get an even more gradual combustion and complete. In this way, then goals are achieved in the control of combustion noise, reduced emissions and increased performance.

The engines 'Common Rail' Multijet therefore differ from the "Common Rail" Unijet basically of two components: the injectors and the electronic control unit that controls them. In order to increase the number of injections needed injectors can reduce the time between each injection, which is reduced by an order of magnitude: from 1500 to 150 microseconds. It was also necessary to reduce the minimum amount injected: it goes from 2 to less than 1 mm3. Finally, it was necessary to have a PBX "smarter", ie able to continuously change the injection logic in terms of three parameters: the number of revolutions of the engine, the torque required at the time by the driver and the temperature coolant.

And indeed, while the new 1.3 Multijet 16v engine is running, the control unit continuously adapts the diagram and the number of injections (plus the amount of diesel injected). When the water is at a temperature below 60 ° and the torque required is low, two injections are made small and a large, very close together. When the torque increases only made two injections: one small and one large. With high speed and high torque application, however, only made one shot. Finally, if the water temperature is above 60 degrees, everything changes and to minimize emissions, the scheme will be shots of a small, one large and one small.

ea5fzo
10-30-2011, 02:32 PM
then what should I do? remove the hho system to my car?
or maybe leave a production system with minimal (100 ml / min).
I do not understand, here in Spain there are companies that install hho kits, I have called them and tell them the model of my car and I can say I have a 20% profit without changing anything in the ECU or sensors.
How can this be? .

Here are just a video of a fiat 500 with the same engine as my car, and consumed with a 15 amp dry cell.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOs8H3MM2i8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOXlluq-J8

myoldyourgold
10-30-2011, 04:22 PM
First thing I would not believe everything that sellers are sayinng. No I do not say remove everything. You are going to have to experiment starting with a very little and slowly add more HHO. There must be some amount that will work and result in some gain. I suspect it is very little.

ea5fzo
10-30-2011, 05:04 PM
I also suspect that, which is little.
Have you seen the other wire of super fuel moreco?
I'm trying this based electrolyte + boric acid and ammonia distilled water.
I read that this gas or gas hhhn Merrik burns slower.
maybe that's what you need, the problem is to make how to make the hho is slower in the explosion, what can you add or mix?.

myoldyourgold
10-30-2011, 05:33 PM
I also suspect that, which is little.
Have you seen the other wire of super fuel moreco?
I'm trying this based electrolyte + boric acid and ammonia distilled water.
I read that this gas or gas hhhn Merrik burns slower.
maybe that's what you need, the problem is to make how to make the hho is slower in the explosion, what can you add or mix?.

The result will be the same. With the right amount of HHO you want the fast burn to help the first squirt only. What needs to be tested is if the temperature goes up with the right amount or down in the first injection. We want it to go up not down. If it is to much it might be possible to reduce the temperature which would not be good. The hhhn is used up, where HHO only the water is used up. Not much difference but water is available anywhere but hhhn you will have to carry it on long trips. Both should work when you get the amount right.

Keep testing and report back.

ea5fzo
10-30-2011, 05:53 PM
hi, one thing I want to say, ignore the combustion temperature of my engine but the EGR valve works open longer than other engines, exhaust gases getting admission and steam (byproduct of combustion will hho ).
the egr is kept open until 2000 or 2200 rpm with a hot engine, the case is that the engine sounds good at all speeds and when he stepped on the accelerator will not smoke from the exhaust black (or very little comes out) my theory is that if the pilot all the injection hho burns and draws air oxygen available to the rest of the engine then expels the exhaust black smoke, this is the first symptom of diesel combustion oxygen poor one;
so my motor does not throw black smoke and this is a sign that combustion is not lacking in oxygen.

if you look on google or youtube videos and pages are common rail diesel engine (which all work the same way) with generators mounted and running with good savings.
I do not trust the sellers, but if it is true that here in Europe, 95% of cars have diesel multijet injeccion and there are many generators running, I say that one must be multijet.

myoldyourgold
10-30-2011, 06:16 PM
hi, one thing I want to say, ignore the combustion temperature of my engine but the EGR valve works open longer than other engines, exhaust gases getting admission and steam (byproduct of combustion will hho ).
the egr is kept open until 2000 or 2200 rpm with a hot engine, the case is that the engine sounds good at all speeds and when he stepped on the accelerator will not smoke from the exhaust black (or very little comes out) my theory is that if the pilot all the injection hho burns and draws air oxygen available to the rest of the engine then expels the exhaust black smoke, this is the first symptom of diesel combustion oxygen poor one;
so my motor does not throw black smoke and this is a sign that combustion is not lacking in oxygen.

if you look on google or youtube videos and pages are common rail diesel engine (which all work the same way) with generators mounted and running with good savings.
I do not trust the sellers, but if it is true that here in Europe, 95% of cars have diesel multijet injeccion and there are many generators running, I say that one must be multijet.

Excellent information. I increase the EGR in some cases where I need to slow down the HHO in some gas engines. I suspect this is also slowing down the burn of the HHO in your engine. I need to think about this a little. As far as the 02 goes with HHO you are injecting exactly the amount of 02 that is needed to burn the H that you have injected so should not upset the ratio. Now that is not exactly what is happening based on the fact that in petrol engines there is an excess of 02 when injecting HHO. No one has explained that to my satisfaction yet. In your multijet diesel with the EGR open as much as it is that makes things a lot different.

I am sure it will work but so far you have not seen any gain is that correct? I would like to get an exhaust analyzer on your engine and see exactly what is happening. I will give it some more thought.

ea5fzo
10-30-2011, 06:30 PM
thank you very much for the excellent answers I give my.
I agree it is better to analyze the gases at different speeds and different amounts of hho to see what happens, I also thought about taking my car to a dyno and do all kinds of tests starting with the 2 amp hho and go up HaSatan the maximum, and do so in all regimes of Vuenta rpm, engine load data checking, power, throttle position and the fuel injectors that deliver.
but it has a high cost for me and my economy will not let me for now.

myoldyourgold
10-30-2011, 06:39 PM
but it has a high cost for me and my economy will not let me for now.

Do not feel bad at least you have a lot of company of which I am one. LOL Careful and small changes should get you the answers you need. Keep at it.

myoldyourgold
10-31-2011, 03:11 PM
The current Mercedes Benz Diesels with Bluetec technology, which basically uses an ammonia pressurized solution(s), has by doing this eliminated the EGR and gain HP in the process. You might consider this in your testing by cutting back or eliminating the EGR and adding ammonia to the electrolyte if possible. This could lead to a very interesting solution. You might end up with the best of both worlds. I will be doing some testing on a newer diesel and see if this is the case some time in the future.

ea5fzo
10-31-2011, 03:31 PM
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=7002

hello, that's right, I said before I'm using the electrolyte moreco, boric acid is more
ammonia and distilled water.
I think the alternator load is what gives me the problem of profit.
I'm running the generator with 6 amp motor and is the same and the same mpg as well.
on the egr the problem is to make it misleading the maf sensor ecu by pressure of the intake manifold.
I've tried disconnecting but turns on the light in the picture, I have also reduced their work area manually separating the solenoid valve (my egr is electric) but in the end sooner or later the light comes on.

mercedes about something I do not understand, the egr it does is put exhaust gases to lower admission temperature of the combustion chamber and thereby reducing the nox and some CO2.

introdiuciendo ammonia gas which makes the admission will increase nox?.

I think I read something about the ammonia in diesel wolkswagewn, but after the engine is used to clean the particulate filter.
for my part in my car I think it's best to reprogram the ECU for hho, otherwise I fear I am wasting my time (but I like to experiment).

greetings and happy haloween night

myoldyourgold
10-31-2011, 03:58 PM
I've tried disconnecting but turns on the light in the picture, I have also reduced their work area manually separating the solenoid valve (my egr is electric) but in the end sooner or later the light comes on.

You need to send a signal to the ECM that the EGR is working normally when you disconnect it. I am not sure what signal it is looking for but you should be able to figure that out. Good stuff keep it up.

Are you adding Boric acid to the electrolyte along with the ammonia? If so how much are you adding. If the solution gets to acidic you will need to have some alkaline in the bubbler to neutralize it.

ea5fzo
10-31-2011, 04:15 PM
look at the thread I put fuel in super moreco, there comes the quantities, boric acid is a very weak acid is weaker than even vinegar.; elctrolito mixture is harmless to the hands (at least to me) moreco dry product containing boric acid but also contains other products that I do not know but it says the manufacturer.
I remove the egr and place a sheet so that no exhaust gas egr and still works well, but the absolute pressure sensor manifold (map) detected low pressure in the manifold and ECU sends the signal of breakdown,

This is true because I've tried and goes with most modern engines with ECU.

I thought to modify map sensor readings using a fixed parameter but the problem comes with the high rpm, then the ECU sees the turbo does not blow.

You see, cars are more modern but also more complex and problematic, but I like the mechanics 20 years ago

myoldyourgold
10-31-2011, 04:31 PM
look at the thread I put fuel in super moreco, there comes the quantities, boric acid is a very weak acid is weaker than even vinegar.; elctrolito mixture is harmless to the hands (at least to me) moreco dry product containing boric acid but also contains other products that I do not know but it says the manufacturer.
I remove the egr and place a sheet so that no exhaust gas egr and still works well, but the absolute pressure sensor manifold (map) detected low pressure in the manifold and ECU sends the signal of breakdown,

This is true because I've tried and goes with most modern engines with ECU.

I thought to modify map sensor readings using a fixed parameter but the problem comes with the high rpm, then the ECU sees the turbo does not blow.

You see, cars are more modern but also more complex and problematic, but I like the mechanics 20 years ago

I have been using Boric acid in my bubbler to help offset the alkaline that makes it into the bubbler for years and know it very well. It is used as an eye wash it is so weak. I missed the 3 to 4 oz packet. In his original formula he added a drug I forgot what it was but have it somewhere.


OK, so the problem comes back to the MAP. What you need is an Apexi that controls the MAP and is programmable to change over a number of different rpm set points either more or less. This might solve your problem. Expensive unless you can find one used.