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mr.niceguy
11-06-2011, 12:37 PM
There are many ways to mod the ECU. But if you cant, you can install a AFPR(adjustable Fuel pressure Regulator) Stock setting is usually 43psi. If you cant get the ECU to reduce fuel input. Cut the fuel supply manually by reducing the incoming fuel pressure. IE lower to 35psi. YOu can get 1 on EBay for $20.

Hows it work? An FPR acts as a constrictor on the return line to your fuel tank. aka like a thumb on the end of a garden hose. higher FP= more fuel better performance, (12.5 AFR) is peak performance. Lower FP = better mpg. DONT go 2 lean though.

This should only be done w/ an AFR(air to fuel ration gauge) and a EGT(Exhaust gas temp) gauge is also a good idea Anything above 1600F and you will be in trouble... eventually sooner or later. 15-15.5 AFR reading is slightly lean but ok anything higher and youll risk damage like melting your cat if you have 1 or warping valves ect.

Now if you wanted to just use an AFPR to enhance your mpg you can. But just remember since the HHO gives more O reading to the O2 sensor I would add 0.4-0.6 to AFR gauge to get an accurate reading.( If you have a higher LPM based on your engine size you could add more, but the rule of thumb is .5L HHO/ 1Lengine) The ECU shoots for 14.7 AFR (stoich) but really this same gas ratio should be about 15.2 w/ HHO. So simply reduce your Fuel pressure until you reach this reading. This setup will cause a check engine light(CEL), but the good thing about it is that the ECU wont be able to add anymore fuel once put in closed loop, just lower the FP till the readings are as state above, about 15.2 and you should be fine.
Check the spark plugs after a week or 2 and make sure they are not white. White indicates a lean cond. Tan is the proper color.

NOTE: only adjust the FP when the car has fully warmed up. It will run richer when the car is warming up. This is not a bad thing.
If youre worried about passing an inspection. Just raise FP back up erase CEL, pass, then turn back down.:D

edit 11/27: well so far from my results the ECU has just bumped up the injector duty cycle a little bit with the lower fuel pressure resulting in NO MPG gain. Coulda swore that would have worked, just ignore this thread, the ECU is smarter than my idea :rolleyes:

myoldyourgold
11-06-2011, 01:03 PM
Mr. Nice guy have you done this and had results? Can you give us the particulars? Are you saying that the system will stay in open loop with the check engine light on all the time? What would happen if something else goes wrong and the check engine light is already on so you would not know it? Interesting cheap idea.......

mr.niceguy
11-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Yes I have done this but with a completely different setup for a turbo application w/ bigger injectors and an FMU. Ill spare the details.

Basically when you drop the FP the ECU will realize its not getting enough fuel and go into edit: open loop NOT closed loop. This will cause the ECU to go to preset maps based on other sensors. Closed loop is "safety" mode and injects extra fuel. Simply just turn down the fuel pressure till it gets back to optimum AFR's and your good.

Youre right about the down side. The CEL would be on all the time, but that really doesnt bother me. I have a scanner and check my codes 1x/ month along w/ all my other fluids. You can check it more if youd like, but really the CEL is worthless. I believe its just for the OBDII sensors. I have all the info I need on my dash oil pressure battery voltage ect.

Quebecker
11-06-2011, 05:50 PM
Yes I have done this but with a completely different setup for a turbo application w/ bigger injectors and an FMU. Ill spare the details.

Basically when you drop the FP the ECU will realize its not getting enough fuel and go into closed loop. This will cause the ECU to go to preset maps based on other sensors. Closed loop is "safety" mode and injects extra fuel. Simply just turn down the fuel pressure till it gets back to optimum AFR's and your good.

Youre right about the down side. The CEL would be on all the time, but that really doesnt bother me. I have a scanner and check my codes 1x/ month along w/ all my other fluids. You can check it more if youd like, but really the CEL is worthless. I believe its just for the OBDII sensors. I have all the info I need on my dash oil pressure battery voltage ect.

I think you make a small mistake. You need to talk to OPEN LOOP MODE
Basically when you drop the FP the ECU will realize its not getting enough fuel and go into open loop.

Regards

Weapon_R
11-06-2011, 07:52 PM
I think you make a small mistake. You need to talk to OPEN LOOP MODE
Basically when you drop the FP the ECU will realize its not getting enough fuel and go into open loop.

Regards

You are correct Quebecker. This must also be done in open loop. So again the O2 sensors should be unplugged.

mr.niceguy
11-06-2011, 09:45 PM
I think you make a small mistake. You need to talk to OPEN LOOP MODE
Basically when you drop the FP the ECU will realize its not getting enough fuel and go into open loop.

Regards

Woops you are right, I always get the 2 confused because to me open loop would seem like the ECU would be open to sensor readings, but its just the opposite. I edited the previous post.



You are correct Quebecker. This must also be done in open loop. So again the O2 sensors should be unplugged.
I would leave the O2 sensor plugged so I can get a proper AFR reading to my aftermarket gauge, unless you have one that provides its own o2 sensor like a Innovative LC-1. The ECU stays in Open Loop until the CEL is cleared. The ECU uses maps based off the TPS and coolant sensor and dis-regards the O2 reading.(at least in my car 97 probe GT) So its not going to add anymore fuel weather its plugged in or not.

Also would use a digital AFR gauge. Wideband is better, but narrow band will work fine for this purpose.

Weapon_R
11-06-2011, 11:31 PM
Woops you are right, I always get the 2 confused because to me open loop would seem like the ECU would be open to sensor readings, but its just the opposite. I edited the previous post.



I would leave the O2 sensor plugged so I can get a proper AFR reading to my aftermarket gauge, unless you have one that provides its own o2 sensor like a Innovative LC-1. The ECU stays in Open Loop until the CEL is cleared. The ECU uses maps based off the TPS and coolant sensor and dis-regards the O2 reading.(at least in my car 97 probe GT) So its not going to add anymore fuel weather its plugged in or not.

Also would use a digital AFR gauge. Wideband is better, but narrow band will work fine for this purpose.

Good point mr.niceguy. Wideband o2 sensor is essential for tuning and a egt sensor. Hard to say weather the o2 sensors should stay plugged in a different cars behave differently.

Quebecker
11-07-2011, 08:14 AM
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5407/openloop.jpg


ANd take a look on this document : http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h43.pdf

mr.niceguy
11-07-2011, 09:07 PM
good read. The bottom of pg 6 is a more accurate and defined answer as to what controls the ECU in open loop.

I personally dont see what the big deal is having your engines CEL on then if you can still control the variables that its using in open loop. How do people get worse mileage in open loop if they still are controlling the O2 reading and the IAT/ MAF?
Ill tell ya what Id do. Limit the ECUs ability to read.
If you control the MAF and AIT has anyone unpluged your pre/post cat sensors I would think you would be forcing the ECU to read what you want it to. Your modded sensors

myoldyourgold
11-07-2011, 10:06 PM
Well, one reason is because it is against the law in some States. Crazy isn't you actually are making cleaner exhaust and you could get fined for doing it while all the smoking junkers out there get away with polluting most of the time.

I'd rather do it in a way where I could get it certified and accepted by the powers to be.

Eastbethelboy
11-09-2011, 06:48 PM
if you really want to learn more about ECU's and open;closed loop check this forum out. not to take away from hho but they tell you alot of info in which you can maximize your hho experience.

this is for people who really want to tune their personal cars and have it run efficient. Most of it is talked about hondas but you will get the idea.

Look under tuning! and READ READ READ

http://wikitest.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl/Library/WebHome

koya1893
11-10-2011, 08:45 AM
There are many ways to mod the ECU. But if you cant, you can install a AFPR(adjustable Fuel pressure Regulator) Stock setting is usually 43psi. If you cant get the ECU to reduce fuel input. Cut the fuel supply manually by reducing the incoming fuel pressure. IE lower to 35psi. YOu can get 1 on EBay for $20.

Hows it work? An FPR acts as a constrictor on the return line to your fuel tank. aka like a thumb on the end of a garden hose. higher FP= more fuel better performance, (12.5 AFR) is peak performance. Lower FP = better mpg. DONT go 2 lean though.

This should only be done w/ an AFR(air to fuel ration gauge) and a EGT(Exhaust gas temp) gauge is also a good idea Anything above 1600F and you will be in trouble... eventually sooner or later. 15-15.5 AFR reading is slightly lean but ok anything higher and youll risk damage like melting your cat if you have 1 or warping valves ect.

Now if you wanted to just use an AFPR to enhance your mpg you can. But just remember since the HHO gives more O reading to the O2 sensor I would add 0.4-0.6 to AFR gauge to get an accurate reading.( If you have a higher LPM based on your engine size you could add more, but the rule of thumb is .5L HHO/ 1Lengine) The ECU shoots for 14.7 AFR (stoich) but really this same gas ratio should be about 15.2 w/ HHO. So simply reduce your Fuel pressure until you reach this reading. This setup will cause a check engine light(CEL), but the good thing about it is that the ECU wont be able to add anymore fuel once put in closed loop, just lower the FP till the readings are as state above, about 15.2 and you should be fine.
Check the spark plugs after a week or 2 and make sure they are not white. White indicates a lean cond. Tan is the proper color.

NOTE: only adjust the FP when the car has fully warmed up. It will run richer when the car is warming up. This is not a bad thing.
If youre worried about passing an inspection. Just raise FP back up erase CEL, pass, then turn back down.:D

Mr. Niceguy,
I've been away from the forum due isolated work. One thing I picked up from the long post above, is "Now if you wanted to just use an AFPR to enhance your mpg you can. But just remember since the HHO gives more O reading to the O2 sensor I would add 0.4-0.6 to AFR gauge to get an accurate reading". It is stating that using HHO will give you more O reading to the O2 sensors. I disagree with you there, the reason the O2 will tell the ECU to schedule more fuel is because using HHO promotes clean and efficient burn, hence you are eleminating emission in turn you have a cleaner exhaust the O2detects not from the MINUTE amount of Oxygen from your system. It is so minute that you probably cannot measure it, and if it was a large amount, one would think, again I am not the expert in this field. That amount would be used during combustion process.

I've performed test on my vehicles and clients, what we are trying to do is outside the box, the ECU will only learn what is close to the norm operation. hence I've taken the another approach to saving on vehicle that will not respond. that's increasing the power to weight ration, I discovered this by accident with the Infinity I was working with.

At first I was told it had two O2, one front and one rear. I treated the front like I did others decrease the signal by 100mv initially and increase the rear by 200mv. I discovered later that it has more than two O2, it had four. two front (narrow) and two rear. My initial setting thinking there are two o2, I increased the signal on one and decrease on the other. when I discovered the other two O2 I re-wired everything as per the EFIE instruction, increase the signal on the rear 200mv and decrease the front by 100mv to 350mv. The mileage went down, I was puzzled for sometime. then it hit me, the fron setting I changed to add to the signal and maintain the standard signal on the rear. It is consitantly yielding 29.2 mpg city using regular gas vice the high octane recommended.

With those setting I can credit it to the power to weight ration increase. I have other example but those I cannot share as they are being patended with the application...

Quebecker
11-10-2011, 10:57 AM
Hi Ben,

I have some difficulty understanding. Would it be possible to answer my questions because I'd like to make these settings to my car seems not to like with the addition of HHO gas :-(


Your front sensors are Wideband sensor (A/F ratio sensor) or Narrow (conventional O2 sensor) ?


Initials setting
===========
Front: -100 mV
Rear: +200 mV


Final setting ???
============

Front: -350 mV (from -100 to 350)
Rear: +400 mV ffrom 200 to 400)


Regards

Rémi

koya1893
11-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Hi Ben,

I have some difficulty understanding. Would it be possible to answer my questions because I'd like to make these settings to my car seems not to like with the addition of HHO gas :-(


Your front sensors are Wideband sensor (A/F ratio sensor) or Narrow (conventional O2 sensor) ?


Initials setting
===========
Front: -100 mV
Rear: +200 mV


Final setting ???
============

Front: -350 mV (from -100 to 350)
Rear: +400 mV ffrom 200 to 400)


Regards

Rémi

Maybe I did not express that correctly:

This is for narrow band O2.

front = 400mv At this setting you are decreasing the standard signal from 450mv down to 400, less 50mv.

rear = 20mv At this setting you are only adding 20 mv to the standard of 450mv to signal the ECU.

At this setting re-set your ECU several times withint 300 miles, so every 100 miles re-set, then run it like this for 500miles. The other thing I discovered on the Infinity is inducing close 1 to 1 ratio. I was inducing 2-2.5LPM.

Quebecker
11-11-2011, 08:37 AM
Maybe I did not express that correctly:

This is for narrow band O2.

front = 400mv At this setting you are decreasing the standard signal from 450mv down to 400, less 50mv.

rear = 20mv At this setting you are only adding 20 mv to the standard of 450mv to signal the ECU.

At this setting re-set your ECU several times withint 300 miles, so every 100 miles re-set, then run it like this for 500miles. The other thing I discovered on the Infinity is inducing close 1 to 1 ratio. I was inducing 2-2.5LPM.

Ben,

I'm not 100% sure but I think for the front O2 sensor, the EFIE don't decreasing 400 mV but it increase by 400 mv. Because it's a narrow band O2 (conventional O2).

An narrow band O2 sensor, no matter whether forward or backward works the same way.


Narrow band O2 sensor -> 0 to 1 volts
===========================

0.05 to 0.4 v, lean mixture
0.45 v, stoic
0.5 to 0.95 v, rich mixture

--> The EFIE must increase the voltage


Wideband A/F ratio sensor -> 0 to 5 volts
=============================

3.3 v and less (current flow - ): rich mixture
3.3 v (no current flow): stoic (14.7:1 ratio)
3.3 v (current flow +) : lean mixture

--> The EFIE must decrease the voltage

Correct me if I am wrong

Regards
Remi

Quebecker
11-11-2011, 01:56 PM
Remi,

The EFIE does not work in the way you presented it. You are "relatively" correct about the voltages at the sensors, but the EFIE works on a different principle.

HI,

And could you clarify how the EFIE work (I think it's amperage ) ?

Thanks

mr.niceguy
11-12-2011, 08:57 PM
Mr. Niceguy,
I disagree with you there, the reason the O2 will tell the ECU to schedule more fuel is because using HHO promotes clean and efficient burn, hence you are eleminating emission in turn you have a cleaner exhaust the O2detects not from the MINUTE amount of Oxygen from your system. It is so minute that you probably cannot measure it, and if it was a large amount, one would think, again I am not the expert in this field. That amount would be used during combustion process.

Didnt know that. But as far as a clean and efficient burn. Could you specify fully what causes that. Its my understanding that the engine is using hydrogen more for a combustion(energy source) and this allows for a lower fuel input, but what happens to the injected gas? How is it burned more completely? I thought it was with the 33%O along with the 66%H
I believe the amount of O your pumping into the intake varies with the LPM of the sys you have set up. For every 2H's theres an O so its not as minute as you might think.

Try filling a balloon with Hydrogen and lighting it, then 1 with O2 do the same, Now combine them IIRC(8th grade science class lol) the most loud and explosive ballon is the HHO combo. The O acts as a catalyst w/ the H.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjcztiNGg_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTEX38bQ-2w

Why am I babling about balloons? its because I think the O2 aids in the cleaner burn, but am not sure how much though. I guess to test it you could do a pure H setup. AL on a - led will produce ALO3 +H giving pure H into your sys. Then you could see the difference.
Note: the O corrodes the AL surface and makes a cloudy mess relatively quickly. Im currently messing w/ AL shavings in KOH. No electricity needed, but how to stop the reaction is my current tests. Im going to try a sock and pull it out lol.





With those setting I can credit it to the power to weight ration increase. I have other example but those I cannot share as they are being patended with the application...

Im a little confused. weight reduction is removing weight. Did you remove the rear seats and the spare? only fill up 1/2tank every time?



HI,

And could you clarify how the EFIE work (I think it's amperage ) ?

Thanks

Wide Band Sensors use the same concept as narrow band, but use 0-5V

edit:
0-.5v (depending on sensor) for rich

4.5-5v(depending on sensor) for lean.

mr.niceguy
11-13-2011, 07:28 PM
I have a Glow Shift WB gauge w/ sensor (look it up on EBay)

I do know for a FACT that it reads from .5v-5v and Im pretty sure the higher the voltage the leaner it is. I put a multi meter on the signal wire and thats the voltage. I think 5v was lean, 0.5 was rich.
I mixed up the lean and rich voltages on my prior post and it has been edited.

This is the volatage and Lambda of the LC-1 directly copied from their manual.
0V=.5λ (AFR of 7.35 for gasoline) and 5.0V=1.523λ

For my glowshift it goes from 10 AFR-20

koya1893
11-13-2011, 09:35 PM
Didnt know that. But as far as a clean and efficient burn. Could you specify fully what causes that. Its my understanding that the engine is using hydrogen more for a combustion(energy source) and this allows for a lower fuel input, but what happens to the injected gas? How is it burned more completely? I thought it was with the 33%O along with the 66%H
I believe the amount of O your pumping into the intake varies with the LPM of the sys you have set up. For every 2H's theres an O so its not as minute as you might think.

Try filling a balloon with Hydrogen and lighting it, then 1 with O2 do the same, Now combine them IIRC(8th grade science class lol) the most loud and explosive ballon is the HHO combo. The O acts as a catalyst w/ the H.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjcztiNGg_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTEX38bQ-2w

Why am I babling about balloons? its because I think the O2 aids in the cleaner burn, but am not sure how much though. I guess to test it you could do a pure H setup. AL on a - led will produce ALO3 +H giving pure H into your sys. Then you could see the difference.
Note: the O corrodes the AL surface and makes a cloudy mess relatively quickly. Im currently messing w/ AL shavings in KOH. No electricity needed, but how to stop the reaction is my current tests. Im going to try a sock and pull it out lol.





Im a little confused. weight reduction is removing weight. Did you remove the rear seats and the spare? only fill up 1/2tank every time?




Wide Band Sensors use the same concept as narrow band, but use 0-5V

edit:
0-.5v (depending on sensor) for rich

4.5-5v(depending on sensor) for lean.

It's been awhile since I had to explain this concept of "power to weight retion". I'll give it a try: Let say the current amount of fuel being scheduled per each combustion process can move a car 10mph, that's taking in consideration the fuel being pushed out as waste, and thermal energy for that amount of fuel. Introducing hydrogen acting a catylst would increase efficiency of the combustion process to the point, instead of pushing the waste fuel out it will be combust. Hence that 10-20% wasted fuel not being used will be used, hence you just increase the power from the same amount of fuel from using the wasted percentage. Now take in consideration the energy affect of hydrogen as a catylst for the fueal air mixture pre each combustion process, increasing the efficiency of your normal combustion process.

I know I probably srewed that all up, but I am sure those smarted than I will jumped in here to correct me and put the real language in thermodynamic terms to all those "Laws" which I can never get them all right. I hope you get what I am trying to say.

Bottom line is, the O2 will not read the amount oxygen being produced from your cell, it will be used up during the combustion process as an aid, as demonstrated in the link you posted.

mr.niceguy
11-14-2011, 09:14 PM
It's been awhile since I had to explain this concept of "power to weight retion". I'll give it a try: Let say the current amount of fuel being scheduled per each combustion process can move a car 10mph, that's taking in consideration the fuel being pushed out as waste, and thermal energy for that amount of fuel. Introducing hydrogen acting a catylst would increase efficiency of the combustion process to the point, instead of pushing the waste fuel out it will be combust. Hence that 10-20% wasted fuel not being used will be used, hence you just increase the power from the same amount of fuel from using the wasted percentage. Now take in consideration the energy affect of hydrogen as a catylst for the fueal air mixture pre each combustion process, increasing the efficiency of your normal combustion process.

I know I probably srewed that all up, but I am sure those smarted than I will jumped in here to correct me and put the real language in thermodynamic terms to all those "Laws" which I can never get them all right. I hope you get what I am trying to say.

Bottom line is, the O2 will not read the amount oxygen being produced from your cell, it will be used up during the combustion process as an aid, as demonstrated in the link you posted.

ok that makes sense. But because it burns everything more completely with the HHO that wont cause heat build up bc hydrogen burns cool. Is that correct?

mr.niceguy
11-14-2011, 09:17 PM
Here is how the wideband sensor works:

http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm

Ill admit I didnt know that all widebands dont use 5V. But do you agree that some of the aftermarket 1's do?
your helpful links are nice, but it seems like you are discrediting everything Ive posted even though I just stated it was from the LC-1 manual. That it produces 5v(pg6) Do you still not believe me? look it up yourself. This is why tunners use a 5v WB, bc its much more acurate w/ 5x the playing field.

mr.niceguy
11-15-2011, 09:51 PM
huh, news to me.
Also the whole Idea of dropping the fuel pressure 7psi didnt work as well as id planned. It works great in the city, but Above 65mph It goes into pig rich mode and my AFR gauge goes down to 10:1 thats way to rich. (This was without the HHO generator installed)

myoldyourgold
11-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Now here is one for all you smart guys. HHO is a perfect mixture and so when injected all the H and the O that is injected should get burned up. If this is the case where does the extra O come from? This is the point that most scientists get hung up on. I have a problem with it too. If I had not experienced it I would not believe it. So what is the explanation.

I do not have one but suspect that this is what is happening. The added HHO to the system is causing a better burn. I think everyone can agree with that. So what is left in the exhaust is less unburnt fuel/carbon which makes what little O left look like a lot to the sensor. The ratio of unburnt fuel/carbon in the exhaust is less and there is still some O that was not needed. Where this gets sticky is that in order for any of the fuel/carbon to burn it takes O. So one can say that because of the better burn there should be less O not more. So this is a stretch at best. Now lets hear some other opinions.

mr.niceguy
11-17-2011, 02:00 PM
My opinion here (might be wrong)
I think its basically what you said. Since the HHO provides a more complete burn what ever little O2 is left over, its still more than the other elements. Since the sensor only detects the percentage of air comparable air to the atmosphere in the exhaust gas. So it reads a higher o2 reading. The only reason this could be is because the burn is so complete that there is oxygen to spare.
I do think this would only be possible with higher output units that have = to or more than .5LHHO/ 1Lof engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
if you look at the picture of an o2 sensor here. It seems the O2 detector is really a normal air detector since its reference air is atmosphere.
What would really need to happen is find out in a lab is what, if any chemical reactions in the exhaust gas w/ HHO make fuel less detectable to an o2 sensor or in other words more like normal air.

Or maybe the HHO reacts w/ the gas vapors to form something more closer to the o2sensors reference air and wa la higher afr. For example less COx and more CO2 = higher afr bc its more like atmoshpereic air.

Like i was saying earlier for this theory to work you have to have a higher LPM output to actually need all the gas trimming mods bc you are producing that much HHO. The question is how much HHO does it take to produce a noticeable difference to your sensor?

myoldyourgold
11-17-2011, 02:33 PM
Niceguy, I think we are on a similar page if not the same. I found by increasing the amount of exhaust that is recycled (EGR) and playing with the way the PCV (crankcase ventilation system) by taking out the pulse and controlling it with a valve I was able to fool the O2. This was way more complicated than just using an EFIE and of course in violation of the law so abandoned this testing. The results was still a cleaner exhaust and an increase in mileage though.

The reason I brought this up in this thread is because it gets to the hart of the problem and why we need an EFIE/ MAF controller.

You are right about getting the exhaust analyzed with a gas spectrometer. This would help a lot and eliminate the guessing or assumptions that are just guess with a little practical theory to back them up.

mr.niceguy
11-18-2011, 07:17 PM
Mr. Niceguy,
I've been away from the forum due isolated work. One thing I picked up from the long post above, is "Now if you wanted to just use an AFPR to enhance your mpg you can. But just remember since the HHO gives more O reading to the O2 sensor I would add 0.4-0.6 to AFR gauge to get an accurate reading". It is stating that using HHO will give you more O reading to the O2 sensors. I disagree with you there, the reason the O2 will tell the ECU to schedule more fuel is because using HHO promotes clean and efficient burn, hence you are eleminating emission in turn you have a cleaner exhaust the O2detects not from the MINUTE amount of Oxygen from your system. It is so minute that you probably cannot measure it, and if it was a large amount, one would think, again I am not the expert in this field. That amount would be used during combustion process.

I've performed test on my vehicles and clients, what we are trying to do is outside the box, the ECU will only learn what is close to the norm operation. hence I've taken the another approach to saving on vehicle that will not respond. that's increasing the power to weight ration, I discovered this by accident with the Infinity I was working with.

At first I was told it had two O2, one front and one rear. I treated the front like I did others decrease the signal by 100mv initially and increase the rear by 200mv. I discovered later that it has more than two O2, it had four. two front (narrow) and two rear. My initial setting thinking there are two o2, I increased the signal on one and decrease on the other. when I discovered the other two O2 I re-wired everything as per the EFIE instruction, increase the signal on the rear 200mv and decrease the front by 100mv to 350mv. The mileage went down, I was puzzled for sometime. then it hit me, the fron setting I changed to add to the signal and maintain the standard signal on the rear. It is consitantly yielding 29.2 mpg city using regular gas vice the high octane recommended.

With those setting I can credit it to the power to weight ration increase. I have other example but those I cannot share as they are being patended with the application...

Sorry for the delayed response to this, but just reread this and know the answer. The reason why a the ECU will throw a code or ignore alterations if the rear injection bank is lower than the front, is because this is really impossible and it will know something is screwy.
To explain, the rear bank is where the fuel goes into the injection rails on(most cars) this should always have higher pressure than the front bank.
Reasoning is pretty simple, on a v6 there is 3 fuel exits before looping around to the front and returning to the tank. How big is the pressure difference? I dont know, but I wouldnt think it would be more than 3psi cruise and maybe 5 psi WOT. But the point being is if the front is getting a richer signal it will flag a CEL and say you have a bad rear o2 and go into open loop. Make sense?

High performance guru's and turbo junkies solve the lean front bank problem( especially the last cyl to get fuel) by adding a dual feed line. That way both banks get as equal fuel as possible, really not neccessary on a DD. Heres a modded PGT (Probe GT) and the duel feed. http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g464/lilpavel/Re-Build/IMG_4469.jpg http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g464/lilpavel/Re-Build/IMG_4466.jpg You can see instead of going into the rear and comming back like the fuel should, he has it so the fuel feeds both rails from the other side and returns to the tank via the AFPR

Also to update on my fuel pressure mod, this is kind of embarrasing. I used a 4wire o2 on my 3wire harness. I just left the extra wire unplugged. I was getting CELs bc of an inconsistent signal because the wire I left out was the signal ground wire. Now that its grounded. Now my reading toggles back and forth like it should, so ill have to see this time how much gas I save on the hwy and get a more accurate assessment. Before it would stay either super lean or super rich bc of no ground.

mr.niceguy
11-27-2011, 11:19 PM
well so far from my results the ECU has just bumped up the injector duty cycle a little bit with the lower fuel pressure resulting in NO MPG gain. Coulda swore that would have worked, just ignore this thread, the ECU is smarter than my idea :rolleyes:

should get a gain now with my EFIE from eagle research.

myoldyourgold
11-28-2011, 03:55 PM
Should get a gain now with my EFIE from eagle research.

I have great respect for the work Wiseman has done in this field especially in the chemistry make up of the gas produced by electrolysis. He is well published and respected but not everyone agrees with him on all points.

His EFIE is very basic even though you should see some gains using his methods but it is by no means the best available out there. The price is right though but might reflect in the gains and how long the gains last.

mr.niceguy
12-06-2011, 09:31 PM
whats your most recomended efie(s)

myoldyourgold
12-07-2011, 11:40 AM
whats your most recomended efie(s)

For just a simple EFIE here is a good one. I would not recommend any simple EFIE though. You really need to do more than just the O2 sensors. See the second link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DESIGN-Better-PRECISION-Digital-EFIE-AFR-HHO-Hydrogen-Generator-/250911360468?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a6b7b85d4

If you get the one in link below make sure it is the one for your vehicle and the map turns on with the Tstat switch and off when power is off.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-MODEL-TUNING-101-AFR-CONTROL-HHO-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-EFIE-MAF-MAP-IAT-CTS-/250912183358?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a6b88143e

PM me for information about a new development that will be available in February which will be much better than any of these.