discouraged

[doug2168]

i recently built an imitation smacks booster. i used the stainless steel plates from some old desktop hdd's i had laying around that were dead anyway. i'm limited in funds and this is why i've done this.

anyway, i made a 3" booster, 12"long from sch 40 pvc, made 2" x 4" plates, used handles from stainless utensils for leads, stainless bolts for terminals, and installed a 40 amp relay, 30 amp breaker, 10 ga wire, amp gauge and kill switch for safety purposes. this is on an 05 honda civic.

during testing i ran 45 min tests with a plate configuration similar to smacks which was +nn-nn+. i had very little problems with this. i had brown gook the first run and than very little afterward. heat was not much of an issue but i don't have a thermometer that goes as high as 150 degrees F. the unit ran hot to the touch but could be handled and held afterward.

i finally got around to installing it in the car yesterday. i went over all of my stuff and noticed i had nylon spacers in between my negative lead and the supposed negative plates. i removed them. setup the electrolyte. drove for a while, got back home and noticed the unit was very hot with brown in it again. i went back to trying to find more info on heat. i had started off @ 7 amps cold and when heating up it slowly creeped to 20 amps. the plate setup was now +n--n+. whereas during testing it was +nn-nn+. why brown gook and so much heat?

i'm now back to a plate setup of +n-nn+. i have not seen this one anywhere. i've seen +nn-nn+. i guess i could always add another plate to the mix and do that.

i use sodium hydroxide that also has sodium nitrate in it. it's called "Drain Out" and i got a small bottle of it from Wally World.

any help, suggestions, constructive criticism or comments are welcome.

tia

[bagrman]

Try going with +nnnnn-, the gook is from the not so good ss you used. 316 has a high chromium content and runs cleaner.

Latr
Bagrman

[Ronjinsan]

Hey Doug

Try running your cell with baking powder and vinegar until you are happy with it, then go and buy some proper Sodium Hydroxide to do your final tests. The draino crap has other additives like nitrates which are not healthy. Remember, PVC pipe is a very poor conductor of heat, so your temperature inside is not accurately reflected outside. In fact it will appear cool to the touch but in fact its very hot inside. Of course if you are sensible with the electrolyte you should be OK. It sounds as if you have a variety of types of Stainless as Bagrman points out, its best to get a good one and stick with it. Get 10 plates cut and its all over...may cost a few bob but worth the investment in terms of hassle! Your plate config is odd....bacially it just means that you will produce more at one end than the other, the end with the one neutral will hog the power more. Cheers, Best of luck :D:D

[doug2168]

morning results......

set things up last night before going to bed. i left the plates as +n-nn+ and dropped enough electrolyte in to start a 5 amp draw. drove my one hour to work this morning. stopped half way through real quick to check the heat and it was cool as a cucumber. i watched the current draw the entire trip and only got to maybe 12 amps. production was low at 5 amps. obviously the higher the draw the more production. i did feel it in power of the engine.

i will try the +nnnnn- config tonight and go through all the same to see what the result is. i really want to keep the heat and current down as low as possible. i'll get some straight sodium hydroxide in the next few days also. where can you get that from? a plumbing supply store or what?

one other question is about the O2 sensor. i read in the water4gas document that sometimes creating a "mini oven" on the sensor works to trick the computer into thinking different and you can do this instead of the extender or EFIE. has anyone tried it? did it work?

i'm a former aircraft mechanic and i'm having a time trying to understand the O2 concept. when an engine runs lean you dump more fuel into it. the fuel also has a cooling effect on the engine also. so does the HHO make the engine run cooler or hotter? i'm leaning towards cooler because for one it's water in gaseous form and two it's a fuel. why would the O2 sensor tell the computer to dump more fuel than?

my first test yesterday did improve my MPG by 3 MPG but i went a little heavy on it because i enjoyed the power increase. i'm not out for power....i want more MPG. the power is nice though.

thanks for the replies. i enjoy the forum.

[Ronjinsan]

Instead of +nnnnn- try +nn-nn+ that works very well! If you do have a couple of extra plates though add 2 more Neutrals and you problems are over! :)

[doug2168]

Instead of +nnnnn- try +nn-nn+ that works very well! If you do have a couple of extra plates though add 2 more Neutrals and you problems are over! :)

ok, so you're saying go to +nn-nn+ which is seven plates. i have room for that. i'd love to add two more as you say to have my problems solved but, i don't have a long enough nylon screw and can't seem to find any. i have a friend who works for Fastenal. i'll ask him today if he can get me some. no one seems to carry any. i got my nylon screw from Lowe's and i believe i got the longest one they had.

i appreciate the help with this. i will make the one more plate and see how it goes. i'm sure it'll do well seeing how i "sorta" had it like this from the beginning. thing i had done though was instead of a negative plate i had
just the negative lead in the electrolyte.

[Ronjinsan]

Why dont you use a different approach to putting your plates together! I use hard rubber spacers for my gaps but I dont bolt my plates together.

64

I use this config with SS bolts and nuts at the terminals and cable ties to hold the plates together (Blue lines) :D Dont need plastic bolts and nuts! ;)

[Fishhook]

Hello. New to this forum. I am buying/building my first unit and will have a lot of questions. On plate configuration, I am concerned with 1)Optimum plate spacing. 2) Optimum plate surface area/size, and 3) Optimum number of plates. I am in the Automotive repair field, and can expose a lot of folks to this technology, but I definitely need to have my "ducks in a row" I drive a lot, and have several of my own vehicles in which I already keep detailed MPG information. One car, a '99 Lincoln, even calculates MPG in real time. That car gets 29.4 highway MPG at 59 miles per hour in ideal traffic situations.

I can fabricate most anything here, so that's why all of the questions about the HHO generator configuration.

Ultimately, I would think that everyone would want to keep some sort of HHO liters per amp-minute, or liters per amp-hour charts.

I have seen multiple partitioned cells like Gorilla Power "KONG". I have seen single cells with two bolts for electrodes. I am really curious as to the IDEAL configuration. LOAD ME UP with info folks! My ears are OPEN! JTS

[bagrman]

Got to do the home work, go to youtube and punch in hho generator. Check out one of the posters zerofossilfuel he is way into this and has over 90 videos on different plate set ups. His ideal has been +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+, the thought here is that the gaps cut down the voltage evenly and the power needed is between 2-2.3volts so in an auto system this works out. Heat is your enemy. your basically making a dead short, a pwm helps control the heat and you can adjust the frequency to allow for best production. An EFIE controls the 02 sensor.

Latr
Chris

[doug2168]

Why dont you use a different approach to putting your plates together! I use hard rubber spacers for my gaps but I dont bolt my plates together.

64

I use this config with SS bolts and nuts at the terminals and cable ties to hold the plates together (Blue lines) :D Dont need plastic bolts and nuts! ;)

seems like a very feasible setup. i did actually think about it but discounted it due to thinking i'd better use what already seemed to work. now, why didn't i use all the other suggested stuff? that disease going around a lot lately...."lack 'o money!"

[grimr27]

hey i dont know wear you live but coke cans and scrap metel bring needed $ for your project. its also good for the environment..:)

[Ronjinsan]

As much as i admire people like zerofossilfuels dedication he does seem to get nowhere fast. My moto is get it going first. These guys spend heaps of money testing futile theories and wasting oodles of fuel saving time. Maybe they should just go into movie making full time. If your criteria is lack of funds then dont go to youtube. Build it simple but dont expect too much...later when you are sure...expect a lot! So spake Zarathustra :D

[Stratous]

I am sure some designs are better than others but honestly it takes time to figure that out. I use the design of 4 cells in one container, each cell is -++-. At 30 amps I am creating 1.5 liters per minute with this set up. Heat is a factor for me, so I use a cooling line. The average temperature after 2 hours is about 140 degrees. The cell is relatively large at 8" x8" x 6", but it does what it supposed to do. There are pictures in this thread. http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=40&page=2

[doug2168]

Why dont you use a different approach to putting your plates together! I use hard rubber spacers for my gaps but I dont bolt my plates together.

64

I use this config with SS bolts and nuts at the terminals and cable ties to hold the plates together (Blue lines) :D Dont need plastic bolts and nuts! ;)

while driving home this afternoon i was thinking about the tywraping of the plates and rubber washers. i was wondering if they move and shift from vibration???

[doug2168]

after driving with my booster for one week:

1) my mpg didn't change.
2) sodium hydroxide made a difference in the color of the electrolyte
3) i noticed the bubbler water gets sucked into the engine gradually and over time
4) wrapping my o2 sensors in tin foil made no difference either

through reading many different docs i've come to understand some things and i'm wondering if i'm on the right track...

1) my mpg hasn't changed because using hho makes the computer on my car think we're now running lean and it dumps more fuel which cancels out any gain i may get. an o2 extender on each sensor may help but so may an efie. which is better?
2) if i was using a different electrolyte, one that had sodium nitrate in it, and i'm now using 100% sodium hydroxide, did i ruin my plates with the other stuff? smacks doc says i probably did but i have not noticed a change in output or current draw.
3) i haven't come across a reason or solution for the bubbler water getting sucked into the intake. all i've done with the output tube from the booster is run it to just under/before the aircleaner in the air inlet duct.

again my setup is like this:

2005 honda civic
scaled down smacks booster 3" pvc 12" long
plates are unknown quality stainless steel from old hard drives 3" long x 2.5" wide and arranged like this: +nn-nn+
using tap water till today and 100% sodium hydroxide
o2 sensors wrapped in tin foil with about 12 layers each
14 volts to booster drawing 5 amps cold and 15 amps hot

oh, and one last question:

how long does it usually take for a booster to heat up? i asl this because this is what i've noticed....i start off at ambient temp in the morning. in other words i set my electrolyte the night before and drive into work the next morning. the current draw would be 5 amps with cold tap water and 1/2 tablespoon electrolyte. in the morning everything is the same as far as hho output and current draw. on the way to work the current draw goes up slightly and upon arrival to work, a one hour trip, the booster has gotten just luke warm. as the day heats up, obviously the booster does too and current draw goes up also. on the way home i've noticed the draw triples what it was the night before so 5 amps is now 15 amps. by the time i get home my booster is red hot and bubbler almost empty. are these things mentioned above due to using tap water, lacking the 4 other plates people have suggested and also because of the heat of the day? someone mentioned that pvc doesn't conduct heat very well. is this also another cause?

i'd really like to get more mpg out of my car, help the environment and learn ALL i can from this experience. still one of my problems is lack of funds and this has been a cause of my project taking so long.

i do appreciate the forum being here and people helping me along the way. i intend to add the 4 other plates later today and tywrap them together. i will also be going grocery shopping and will pick up a couple gallons of distilled water.

i'm also thinking about drilling a hole close to the throttle body in my air ducts if this will help and getting a "T" fitting for my pcv system because i've noticed anyone that has reported huge gains in mpg has hho ported to these two places. what does anyone have to say about this? i'm interested.

thx again!

[Stratous]

I am not certain why your not seeing any gains, I do know that your bubbler shouldnt be empty, no water from the bubbler should get sucked into the engine. If anything, your bubbler should have more water in it than what it started with due to moisture from the generator making its way to the bubbler. Can you post pictures of your setup?

[doug2168]

I am not certain why your not seeing any gains, I do know that your bubbler shouldnt be empty, no water from the bubbler should get sucked into the engine. If anything, your bubbler should have more water in it than what it started with due to moisture from the generator making its way to the bubbler. Can you post pictures of your setup?

pics? here ya go....

the plates are crude....i know.
the output tube is snaked all the way up into the air duct and stops at the airfilter.

[Stratous]

Its difficult to say why your not getting gains for sure. perhaps your not producing enough gas, or your ecu is dumping more fuel based on sensed o2? I cant really tell how your bubbler works based on the pictures, but here is a pic of how mine is set up. In this set up the water will not be sucked into the engine unless a vaccume overcomes the bubbler container.

[doug2168]

Its difficult to say why your not getting gains for sure. perhaps your not producing enough gas, or your ecu is dumping more fuel based on sensed o2? I cant really tell how your bubbler works based on the pictures, but here is a pic of how mine is set up. In this set up the water will not be sucked into the engine unless a vaccume overcomes the bubbler container.


what's #12 in your attachment? is it a check valve?

on my setup the bubbler is the larger tube on the side of the unit and hho gas goes in theough the bottom and exits out of the top. i've watched it in operation and what winds up happening is the bubbles stick to the side and burst right at the top. water is than slowly pushed or sucked through the 1/4" angle fitting. this happens no matter how much water is in the bubbler. i'm guessing here but it sounds like and looks like i need to do one of two things.....either design another bubbler or use a check valve.

[Stratous]

A check valve is designed to allow one way travel. It would not prevent water from escaping the bubbler. I would think you need a bigger bubbler. Although, I have seen several designs like the one your using, so it must work as a flashback device at least. The container I use for a bubbler is about 1 liter is size and normally I have to bleed water out every couple days as condensation and water vapor from the generator gather there. The picture I showed you is only represenative of my setup and is not identicle. Perhaps you need to use o2 extenders and run your hho exit tube past the map or maf sensors. If you have a 1/4 or 1/2 vaccume port on your intake, u could inject there. Full manifold vaccum will crush your hho tubing and your current bubbler.

[doug2168]

went and got a spark plug non-fouler and spent a while drilling and grinding it out. got 2 of them in one pack from o'reilly auto parts for 3.99. made a good fit for the o2 sensor. installed it.

made 4 more plates today too. installed them. mixed 1/2 tablespoon of sodium hydroxide with water. started out @ 5 amp draw cold. sealed booster. checked for leaks. filled gas tank at a late night station. drove a total of 32.9 miles round trip on the interstate right back to the same pump i used before. topped to brim just like before and it only took .6 gals. that's 54.8 mpg!!!!! YAY! up from 38 mpg with no mods. i have no idea what percentage this is. i'm guessing close to 40%.

now, what about the IAT, MAP, and other mods? i wonder.

thanks for the help and encouragement y'all. it's much appreciated!

i still have somewhat of a bubbler problem but, to just know this works and i'm over a big hump is great!!!

[Stratous]

Wow, I am happy for u. Wish I could get those gains on my truck.

[doug2168]

ran all day today no problems. booster still seemed hot but current draw was good all day to and from work. one hour each way. gonna see about getting an IR thermometer. saw one at harbor freight for 29.99 and good up to something like 450 degrees F.

cleaned booster out tonight and walgreens had distilled on sale buy 2 get one free. so i got 3 gals for 2.00. i bet it runs cooler than ever with distilled. i noticed that filling to my fill mark with it and using the same amount of sodium hydroxide drew less current. i guess that's from no junk in the water to be conductive.

i'm concerned about heat because i don't want a melt down. i can still touch it with bare hands, unfasten it and remove it from the engine compartment. so, i guess it's not too bad. just want to be sure about it. i may try and stop by a repair shop on the way home tomorrow afternoon and see if i can borrow someone's IR thermometer. i just want to see how hot it really is. i was only pulling 10 amps this afternoon. i noticed it went up with the a/c on and when i shut that off the draw went down. i attribute that to heat.

no big problems though.

[Stratous]

Sounds to me like its working as its supposed to. 10 amps is good and the heat doesnt sound bad at all. When my gen reaches 140 degrees I can stick my finger in the water, but it hurts just a little bit. Sounds to me like your gen is prolly not that hot although everyones tolerance for pain is different. 140 degrees can cause 3rd degree burns in 5 seconds, so I would imagine that your prolly running cooler than 140.

[Ronjinsan]

I have been looking at your photos Doug and only have one small tip that may help! Take your cell apart and straighten the plates better, Remeber you will get max production from the parts that are closest together.......which is a bad thing with warped plates, as the wider parts of the plates produce less! If I have bad plates I hammer them and bend them with pliers until they are straight...Cheers :D;)

[crew02]

went and got a spark plug non-fouler and spent a while drilling and grinding it out. got 2 of them in one pack from o'reilly auto parts for 3.99. made a good fit for the o2 sensor. installed it.

made 4 more plates today too. installed them. mixed 1/2 tablespoon of sodium hydroxide with water. started out @ 5 amp draw cold. sealed booster. checked for leaks. filled gas tank at a late night station. drove a total of 32.9 miles round trip on the interstate right back to the same pump i used before. topped to brim just like before and it only took .6 gals. that's 54.8 mpg!!!!! YAY! up from 38 mpg with no mods. i have no idea what percentage this is. i'm guessing close to 40%.

now, what about the IAT, MAP, and other mods? i wonder.

thanks for the help and encouragement y'all. it's much appreciated!

i still have somewhat of a bubbler problem but, to just know this works and i'm over a big hump is great!!!


What did ya do with the spark plugs you drilled out?

[tbhavsar]

went and got a spark plug non-fouler and spent a while drilling and grinding it out. got 2 of them in one pack from o'reilly auto parts for 3.99. made a good fit for the o2 sensor. installed it.

made 4 more plates today too. installed them. mixed 1/2 tablespoon of sodium hydroxide with water. started out @ 5 amp draw cold. sealed booster. checked for leaks. filled gas tank at a late night station. drove a total of 32.9 miles round trip on the interstate right back to the same pump i used before. topped to brim just like before and it only took .6 gals. that's 54.8 mpg!!!!! YAY! up from 38 mpg with no mods. i have no idea what percentage this is. i'm guessing close to 40%.

now, what about the IAT, MAP, and other mods? i wonder.

thanks for the help and encouragement y'all. it's much appreciated!

i still have somewhat of a bubbler problem but, to just know this works and i'm over a big hump is great!!!

Why spark plug? What & Why drilling and grinding was used? please explain little bit.

[doug2168]

sorry it took so long to get back to you all.

the spark plug anti-foulers can be had at any auto arts store locally instead of waiting to get the actual O2 sensor extenders that are already machined to your O2 sensor.

the roblem with the anti-foulers is they are not hollow all the through so you would need to either grind them to fit your O2 sensor or drill them with a 1/2" drill bit.

next thing is the O2 sensor extenders DO NOT work on all cars. only some peole have reorted them to actually work. what i've found out to hapen myself is this. i installed one, topped off, drove for a bit, went back and toped off again and did my calcs. i had a gain. i drove the rest of the tank for a week and was right back to my normal mpg. it seems from reading all over the internet, that what winds up haening, you may get some initial gains, but they're lost over time because the newer vehicles will learn about your hack, reset themselves in some way shape or form and go back to functioning as if everything is stock again and there are no mods.

i'm finding out that the only way to trick the newer cars is to get a baseline IPW (injector ulse width) using a scan tool and adjust IAT, MAP, ECT, and O2. adjust one at a time using resistors, and circuits to either up or drop signal voltages.

i started with IAT this week and will see how that goes. i am borrowing a friends scan tool that gives me all of the needed data in terms of IPW and what not so when i make a change i'm looking for a drop in IPW. i don't want to go too lean because that can do some serious damage to my engine. too much of anything is no good.

good luck to you all! this is a lot of work on these newer cars but the learning exerience in itself is GREAT!!! no one can ever take away the knowledge i have learned but, they can take away my house, my cars and my money.....the know ledge is here to stay....at least until i get "oldtimers". ;-)

[porkchop]

It is my understanding the oxygen sensor is on the exhaust manifold. Obviously measures oxygen. If your injection point is past the MAP sensor, and injected directly into the intake manifold (below the butterfly valve), wouldn't just the oxygen sensor come into play as far as what's measured by your PCM (power contol module)? I have a 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee, the place that gathers and processes the sensor info is the PCM (FYI).
Now, I haven't tried mine yet, but while we are on this oxy sensor thing, thought I'd ask. How would you go about tricking the O2 sensor?

[Johnh]

The first place to start is actually try the unit on your car and see what the results are before trying any of the o2sensor mods.
The next thing is to make small steps in modifying the output.
If you make too much of a difference to the output of the o2 sensor the computer will just assume it is faulty and go into the full rich mode so as not to damage the engine, and leave the poor guy doing the mods wondering why his generator isn't working. It is otherwise your fuel consumption would really go up.
Regards
John