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JojoJaro
08-05-2008, 02:17 AM
Folks, Noob here. Only started researching HHO injection 4 days ago. Been reading most of the post and responses here.

While researching batteries for my solar project, I came across Nickel Iron batteries.

http://www.beutilityfree.com/nife.html

Then an Idea hit me. Why can't we take this NiFe battery, empty the electrolyte, clean the insides up, put our own electrolyte, fabricate some ports for collecting the HHO and voila, we should have an HHO generator already built for us, including the clear case which is helpful in seeing the gas production.

The anode is iron. The cathode is nickel-oxide-hydroxide. Does this have the correct electode type and chemistry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery

Note that one of the bad things about this battery when used as a battery is excessive gassing (hydrogen gas) when being charged. Looks like it is already an electrolyzer in disguise.

What do you guys think?

HomeGrown
08-05-2008, 02:32 AM
Would probably work great.... briefly. Haven't you noticed that about 98% of the HHO cells that people build use stainless steel electrodes? The case would be beautiful, IF it could withstand the high temps of the cell (typically way more than a battery will ever see).

Welcome to the forum, stick around and see what we're doing! :)

c02cutter
08-05-2008, 02:33 AM
You will wind up with a pile of sludge in the bottom of the battery from the iron plates in the battery. I did some experiments using just steel plates which contain a pile of iron. It was a disaster in just a few minutes with the iron floating in the electrolyte. I also did tests of just using my tap water which I know is high in iron... same results, only a bit less than using the plates as the iron content. The other thing is if you have plates that are iron, they will eat up from the process. I also used Ti-6Al-4V titanium, but there is too much aluminum involved to be cost effective or productive. It turned to swiss cheese in less than an hour.

JojoJaro
08-05-2008, 02:51 AM
Is the Iron eaten up due to the electrolyte?

Maybe if we use a different electrolyte, the iron will last?

c02cutter
08-05-2008, 03:08 AM
'm going to do a video in the next couple days to demonstrate what happens using a steel plate configuration. It will be just an anode and cathode but you will see the results. I'll use material that is .03 thick that I know I have on hand, but also use the same configuration using .015 316SS that my first cell to play with was built on, This way you can see the results.

JojoJaro
08-05-2008, 03:10 AM
'm going to do a video in the next couple days to demonstrate what happens using a steel plate configuration. It will be just an anode and cathode but you will see the results. I'll use material that is .03 thick that I know I have on hand, but also use the same configuration using .015 316SS that my first cell to play with was built on, This way you can see the results.

No, no, no ... I am not questioning you or your results.

I am asking if the Iron degradation could be a function of the type of electrolyte being used. If somehow changing electrolytes may help.

1973dodger
08-05-2008, 03:13 AM
Gentlemen, read my post concerning the thread "copper and gas". I think you will find it interesting to know that only the positive, which attracts oxygen, is the culprit in dissolving soft metals. Which means the electrolye is not the culprit. It is the oxygen. I think the nickle plates would hold up fine as the positive, since the better the quality of SS, such as 316l, will have a higher nickle content.

1973 dodger

JojoJaro
08-05-2008, 03:35 AM
Gentlemen, read my post concerning the thread "copper and gas". I think you will find it interesting to know that only the positive, which attracts oxygen, is the culprit in dissolving soft metals. Which means the electrolye is not the culprit. It is the oxygen. I think the nickle plates would hold up fine as the positive, since the better the quality of SS, such as 316l, will have a higher nickle content.

1973 dodger

Cathod is Nickel-oxide-hydroxide. Are you saying this battery might actually work as an electrolyzer without the Iron Anode degrading too much?

Just trying to understand it better.

HomeGrown
08-05-2008, 03:37 AM
Very good info, dodger. :cool:

1973dodger
08-05-2008, 03:44 AM
Cathod is Nickel-oxide-hydroxide. Are you saying this battery might actually work as an electrolyzer without the Iron Anode degrading too much?

Just trying to understand it better.

The material you use for the negative will still need to be a material which can hold up under wet conditions, such as copper, brass, aluminum. Then the material you have to use as the positive will have to be SS, titanium, nickle, platnuim.

1973dodger
08-06-2008, 02:35 AM
The material you use for the negative will still need to be a material which can hold up under wet conditions, such as copper, brass, aluminum. Then the material you have to use as the positive will have to be SS, titanium, nickle, platnuim.

I should say that i have not tried brass or aluminum as the neg., as aluminum will have a chemical reaction with the electrolite, but it is a possibility if it is hooked to the neg. no reaction will take place, chemically speaking, since it will repel the oxygen. There will be 2 forces at work here against each other. Interesting thought though.

1973 dodger

wljohns
08-06-2008, 02:38 AM
Anyone tried them?

1973dodger
08-06-2008, 03:08 AM
Welding rods do not provide enough surface area.

1973dodger

dlw
08-06-2008, 10:53 PM
never mind using one of the batteries and stripping it, as the one in the picture is 1.2 volts 400 amps it's perfect for running an electrolyser.

Just have to get a battery charger to match $$$$$$$$$

djerickd
08-07-2008, 06:00 AM
How much is one of the batteries? wouldn't want to trash one if it's too much $$$

JojoJaro
08-17-2008, 07:20 PM
How much is one of the batteries? wouldn't want to trash one if it's too much $$$


$84

http://www.beutilityfree.com/batterynife/Flyer.pdf

Are you trying one? If you do, make sure you reverse the polarity. Use the Nickel OH electrode as positive and the Fe as Cathode. This may make the electrodes last longer.

Even if you trash one, the case alone itself seems to be good for your next cell.

djerickd
08-17-2008, 07:37 PM
I think i'm going on hold off on building one for now..

DaneDHorstead
08-18-2008, 12:38 AM
Gentlemen, read my post concerning the thread "copper and gas". I think you will find it interesting to know that only the positive, which attracts oxygen, is the culprit in dissolving soft metals. Which means the electrolye is not the culprit. It is the oxygen. I think the nickle plates would hold up fine as the positive, since the better the quality of SS, such as 316l, will have a higher nickle content.

1973 dodger
I know this is a reply to an old thread, but there is a reason they call it "oxidation"!

Most corrosion of metals (but not all), is the result of oxygen, comming in contact with wet metals.

Just as coppor tarnishes, it also is the result of oxidation (silver, brass, and bronze also oxidize, as also do other metals).

Aluminum is one of the exceptions to the rule (gold is another). Oxygen does not rapidly eat away at aluminum, but salt does. It's not that oxygen does not slowly turn aluminum, but salt eats it up rapidly.


That is why aluminum boats, use a sacrifice plate (made of lead), so the salt will work on the softer lead, instead of eating away at the aluminum boat hull (or other aluminum boat parts).

Regardless of which above metals, any sodium based product, boost the corrosion factor, but it is the combination of sodium and oxygen, that causes the fastest damage to these metals.

1973dodger
08-18-2008, 04:08 AM
I know this is a reply to an old thread, but there is a reason they call it "oxidation"!

Most corrosion of metals (but not all), is the result of oxygen, comming in contact with wet metals.

Just as coppor tarnishes, it also is the result of oxidation (silver, brass, and bronze also oxidize, as also do other metals).

Aluminum is one of the exceptions to the rule (gold is another). Oxygen does not rapidly eat away at aluminum, but salt does. It's not that oxygen does not slowly turn aluminum, but salt eats it up rapidly.


That is why aluminum boats, use a sacrifice plate (made of lead), so the salt will work on the softer lead, instead of eating away at the aluminum boat hull (or other aluminum boat parts).

Regardless of which above metals, any sodium based product, boost the corrosion factor, but it is the combination of sodium and oxygen, that causes the fastest damage to these metals.

Dane,

I know it is widely taught all over the net, to only use ss because the electrolyte will eat away at your plates. My purpose for this thread is to teach all experimentors, including yourself, to experiment before posting something as fact. The fact is you can put copper in the electrolyte overnight or all week and nothing will happen, now if you attach it to the anode it will start disolving in a matter of minutes. My hope is all of the mis-information will stop, so it will stop wasting all our time and money with half truths concerning electrolosis. EXPERIMENT BEFORE YOU POSTS SOMETHING AS FACT, PLEASE.

1973dodger

DaneDHorstead
08-19-2008, 08:06 PM
Dane,

I know it is widely taught all over the net, to only use ss because the electrolyte will eat away at your plates. My purpose for this thread is to teach all experimentors, including yourself, to experiment before posting something as fact. The fact is you can put copper in the electrolyte overnight or all week and nothing will happen, now if you attach it to the anode it will start disolving in a matter of minutes. My hope is all of the mis-information will stop, so it will stop wasting all our time and money with half truths concerning electrolosis. EXPERIMENT BEFORE YOU POSTS SOMETHING AS FACT, PLEASE.

1973dodger
I considered the fact that current would be added, to be as comparable to building a boat.

There's no point to it, if your afraid to get it wet!

Don't misunderstand me to be argumentative.

I don't mean to be argumentitive, but the concept is to produce HHO, which requires a current source.

Electrolysis, is a product of current. be it the current which is in the earth, or intentionally introduced.

The reaction is not between the copper, and the plates, or the copper and the water......

until, current is added!

DaneDHorstead
08-19-2008, 09:01 PM
I considered the fact that current would be added, to be as comparable to building a boat.

There's no point to it, if your afraid to get it wet!

Don't misunderstand me to be argumentative.

I don't mean to be argumentitive, but the concept is to produce HHO, which requires a current source.

Electrolysis, is a product of current. be it the current which is in the earth, or intentionally introduced.

The reaction is not between the copper, and the plates, or the copper and the water......

until, current is added!
When current is added, oxygen is released from hydrogen (breaking the bond of the two elements)

This dissassociated oxygen causes the copper to tarnish (aka: to oxidize). This is further emphasised, if there are dissisimilar metals in the mix (including a rare possibility of mercury in the water).

Just like deep sea salvage divers, when they find metal artifacts like cannons, anchors, etc, they rush to bring the items up, and then put them back into containers of water.

Below the surface of water they are for the most part, stabilized.

Being underwater, the oxidation process is slowed to a craw, because the oxygen is not free to break its bond to the hydrogen. Hydrogen would be released in this given circumstance, if the oxygen could break that bond, to oxidize the metal (which it does not do)

But exposed to oxygen in the air, these artifacts are rapidly being effected.

I have been experimenting with HHO, for nearly a year, using various styles of electrode designs, including Joe cells, stacked stainless butter cups, funnels, etc.

HHO is a hobby, but electric is, and always has been my trade.

I have worked with electricity for nearly sixty years, as well as I live in Naples FL, on salt water. I worked in elevator construction/repair for 20 years, and now am in the hurricane shutter (and shutter motor repair) business. We are only allowed to use stainless steel as fasteners, and we are required to be tested on our knowlege of electrolysis, and the effects of it. on various metal types in order to obtain the required licenses.

Salt, is constantly in the air, here, and we strive to keep its harmfull effects under control everyday!

Salt is extremely corrosive, and through the use of softer metals, we keep electrolysis in check, because it first eats away at the softer "sacrifice (lead) plates".

Smith03Jetta
08-20-2008, 08:01 PM
I can attest to this as well. We put large lead ground plates on the hulls of our shrimp boats in the Gulf of Mexico. They are eaten away over time by electrolysis but it does help protect the rest of the steel and copper stuff on the boat.

DaneDHorstead
08-21-2008, 10:34 PM
I can attest to this as well. We put large lead ground plates on the hulls of our shrimp boats in the Gulf of Mexico. They are eaten away over time by electrolysis but it does help protect the rest of the steel and copper stuff on the boat.
Few people understand the need to fight off unintentional electrolysis.

But living anywhere near salt water, we deal with the effects of it, everyday.

I'd bet you also agree with the fact that there's not much point to building a boat, if you'r afraid to get it wet!

I wasn't trying to give the guy a hard time, but adding current, is pretty much a given, isn't it?

1973dodger
08-22-2008, 06:40 AM
Few people understand the need to fight off unintentional electrolysis.

But living anywhere near salt water, we deal with the effects of it, everyday.

I'd bet you also agree with the fact that there's not much point to building a boat, if you'r afraid to get it wet!

I wasn't trying to give the guy a hard time, but adding current, is pretty much a given, isn't it?

Dane,

I'm afraid you have missed the point. Oxygen, is attracted to the positive electrode in our electrolosis generator, it is the anode which requires a noble metal such as stainless steel, the cathode will, infact, repel the effects of the oxygen.(opposites attract while likes repel) The example you have given concerning electrolosis in nature, is more of a chemical reaction. I think you should look into the some of the inner workings of a galvanic cell if you need an explanation of how dissimilar metals react in relationship to the "anode and cathode"(key). Although a galvanic cell is used to produce electricity by the reaction of disimilar metals in a solution with hydrogen as a by-product. As where we are making our cells to produce hydrogen with the outside influence of electricity.

While you and I agree about the effects Oxygen and salt effects of the corrosion process. We just have to be a little smarter than the elements we are dealing with and know what they like and dislike. Have you physically tried what I have proposed, in relationship to building a hho cell? If not, that is your choice. But I have for 2 months now with no ill effects to the copper as cathode electrodes. So sir, I have put my "boat in the water".

My therory is, there are better electrodes than stainless steel to achieve more production, if our purpose is to produce hho. I could care less if my electrodes are shiny in the process, if I can find a way to produce my hho more efficiently. So, why not think outside the box. I may be a little unorthadox in my approach and am sure to go down many paths which lead to dead ends. But I don't think any of us has the market cornered, as to the answer of how to liberate ourselves from the stranglehold the oil barons now have.

I do want to welcome you to this forum and look forward to learning from the experience you bring to the table. But to this point we must disagree, other materials other than SS can be successfully used as electrodes.

Sincerely,

1973dodger

DaneDHorstead
08-23-2008, 10:45 PM
I agree that it is good to think outside the box........

The Gavlvonic cell uses two dissimilar metals, which would be absolutely disasterous to the creation of HHO.

You are welcome to your opinions, and I won't step on your feet, in that respect.

My comment, was to the effect that adding current to the device, is a given. It is not built just to look at it.

Every road needs to be explored, for the better understanding of all, however with all due respect, I believe we agree to dissagree.




Stainless steel is chosen, for its adversity to corrosion, especially in low grades of carbon content (304L, and 316L as examples).

Virtually everyone here is aware of 304 stainless, but in all probability, they for the most part are not aware that 304 is also available in L (low carbon content) grade as well.

As for annodes, and cathodes, current can be made to travel in either direction, such as the rare situations where lightning travels from the earth to a cloud (or cloud to cloud) In most cases cloud to cloud lightning, is merely a balancing of uneven electrical charges, and can discharge in either positive, or negative directions.

While it's true that most people think current always travels from positive, to negative, that is not always the case. Without that possibility, Alternating Current would not be possible, but even direct current can be made to reverse flow.

However, the direction of travel is almost insignificant here, because in either direction of travel, both elements take on the positive charge and repell each other. It is that repulsion, that causes the dissassociation of water, and causes both elements to become vapors above the soupy solution of water and electrolyte.

The point is, that these vapor/bubbles can not abide together in the water, and that they must escape the water. It makes little, to absolutely no difference, which is attracted to which plate, if they are all liked charged, and they repell each other, and the water!

They can not abide together, within the water! They must escape.

At least in the case of using neutral plates, the reaction is magnetic, and not chemical.

Magnetic forces are just as valid underwater, as they are above.

The current is induced, and suffers a voltage drop as it passes positive side, to negative side, of each plate, then it is induced to the next plate, and so on. Each plate looses an approximate two volts, as current passes from plate to plate, without a direct electrical connection.

The absorbtion of electrical protons from the catalyst to the negative hydrogen (changing it to a positivly charged atom), may indeed be chemical. However, the induction of currents to, and through the neutral plates (and then one, to another), is magnetic, not chemical.

And yes I do have working cells, as well as I offer them for sale, on a wholesale basis. As I also do with other HHO supply materials.

DaneDHorstead
08-25-2008, 09:31 PM
Dodger;

I took me a day to research, the following, so I had something to back my words, however, in response to your claim........

Note I highlight your words, so as to refudiate them.


I'm afraid you have missed the point. Oxygen, is attracted to the positive electrode in our electrolosis generator, it is the anode which requires a noble metal such as stainless steel, the cathode will, infact, repel the effects of the oxygen.

Perhaps your generator works differently, than everybody elses.


I turn your attention to the following link, which is a very thorough study on the manufacture of hydrogen, compromised of findings of multiple individuals, rangeng well over four hundred years, of study. It was published in 1919, at the University of California.

http://www.archive.org/download/chem...00teedrich.pdf

Pay particular attention to the pages 127 (just above the diagram), and again at the bottom of pafe 131.

In both cases, it is stated that in electrolysis, Oxygen is liberated, at the anode (positive - input terminal), and that hydrogen is liberated, at the negative (cathode).

Liberation at the positive (anode), is a repulsed action, and just the opposition of being attracted to the anode, (as you state).

The hydrogen is liberated from the cathode, just as I implied.


I missed no such point!

DaneDHorstead
08-25-2008, 09:43 PM
Note that same study published in 1919, makes mention (in many places) that induced plates, pose Electro Mechanical Forces into the system, causing a voltage drop between the plates. The writing further goes on to explain that the EMF is a magnetic field, created by the induction of currents.

1973dodger
08-25-2008, 11:51 PM
Dodger;

I took me a day to research, the following, so I had something to back my words, however, in response to your claim........

Note I highlight your words, so as to refudiate them.


I'm afraid you have missed the point. Oxygen, is attracted to the positive electrode in our electrolosis generator, it is the anode which requires a noble metal such as stainless steel, the cathode will, infact, repel the effects of the oxygen.

Perhaps your generator works differently, than everybody elses.


I turn your attention to the following link, which is a very thorough study on the manufacture of hydrogen, compromised of findings of multiple individuals, rangeng well over four hundred years, of study. It was published in 1919, at the University of California.

http://www.archive.org/download/chem...00teedrich.pdf

Pay particular attention to the pages 127 (just above the diagram), and again at the bottom of pafe 131.

In both cases, it is stated that in electrolysis, Oxygen is liberated, at the anode (positive - input terminal), and that hydrogen is liberated, at the negative (cathode).

Liberation at the positive (anode), is a repulsed action, and just the opposition of being attracted to the anode, (as you state).

The hydrogen is liberated from the cathode, just as I implied.


I missed no such point!

Danedhorsestail,

I could not pull up your little link. (I guess it was attached to the anode on this thread and was eaten by some oxygen.) I am sorry you wasted your day trying to prove some point, when you could have just gone to wekipedia and looked up electrolosis 101, or cathodic protection, or sacrificial anode, or noble metals, or principles of a galvanic cell to see whether the oxygen was attracted to the anode or the cathode. This is pretty basic stuff, if you are going to sell your products to the general public, you should know this very fundemental truth concerning electrolosis. As to the liberation, or as you put it "repulsed", of the oxygen at the anode, would have to go against the laws of magnetism. Once again, opposites attract and likes repel. You could do just a simple test on one of those wholesale products of yours, to see the the larger oxygen bubbles sticking to your anode plates and the smaller hydrogen bubbles sticking to you cathode plates. The key word I use is sticking, does'nt look like repulsing to me. It is, in fact, only the bouyancy of the particular gasses which does the liberating as well as an natural anti-oxidant layer which is formed by the chromium element found in SS. Why do you think so much effort has been put into finding the resonance of an electrolitic cell, so as to keep the oxygen and hydrogen bubbles "knocked" off of our plates, so as to not insulate the electrical reaction neccessary to produce hho. Surely you have checked into the work of Stan Meyers, have'nt you?

Now surely you have some better things to do with your time than argue and look up some study printed in 1919, I know I sure do. Many of the laws of Faraday have been surpassed by the likes of Boyce, Meyers, and Dingle, for which I have not come close to as of yet. Now I was willing to leave your last reply be, and chalk it up to you have your opinion and I have mine, but for some reason this seems to be eating at you (like oxygen on an anode) I believe this will be my last reply to you concerning this subject, for it does not make a difference to me, if you agree with me or not. Happy hho-ing. (Only kidding about the "horsestail" thing, I just think you are taking yourself far to serious.)

1973dodger

SamB52
08-26-2008, 01:27 AM
All I can say is that you boys are perfecting an art...the art of being condescending to complete strangers!
Very entertaining.

c02cutter
08-26-2008, 01:41 AM
Lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MasterCATZ
10-14-2013, 05:26 AM
well I am about to start the project as soon as I get my hands on a 3D Printer

just a reminder its not being USED as an HHO generator , just collecing and seperating the hydrogen that would normally be produced during its charging / discharging , then storing it for a backup power generator :P

I am using nickle foam and printing out plastic mesh insulators / HH Collectors
and locating in between the Iron plates

Downside being the O is going to make the nickle rust out faster

so pretty much every cell will have an HH and O collector
( piping will be like an aqurium setup )

system will be built like an HH0 Dry cell
figured contruction Type add on AMP as I need it to grow
downside being the shell will have to be positive and I was wanting to make it Negitive
but because the Ni has to be the cathode and hell expensive its being kept in the centre and least amount of it being used



H2O
HH0 generator
HH = + Anode hydrogen
O = - Cathode oxygen
bubbles are hydrogen and oxygen. The negatively charged hydrogen will be drawn to the anode and the oxygen to the cathode. The cathode should be thicker than the anode as the oxygen will cause it to erode

Ni-Fe
nickel(III) hydroxide as cathode
iron as anode
potassium hydroxide as electrolyte.
Nickel sulphate and Ferrous sulphide are added to the active material.


Ni = - Cathode oxygen
Fe = + Anode hydrogen


Cathode -
The cathode is the negatively charged electrode.
The cathode attracts cations or positive charge.
The cathode is the source of electrons or an electron donor. It may accept positive charge.
Because the cathode may generate electrons, which typically are the electrical species doing the actual movement, it may be said that cathodes generate charge or that current moves from the cathode to the anode. This can be confusing, because the direction of current would be defined by the way a positive charge would move. Just remember, any movement of charged particles is current.
Anode +
The anode is the positively charged electrode.
The anode attracts electrons or anions.
The anode may be a source of positive charge or an electron acceptor.