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djerickd
08-11-2008, 11:41 PM
Anyone experimented with Graphite plates? A local craigslist ad promises benefits:

http://tampa.craigslist.org/pts/737757625.html

Dewayne
08-12-2008, 02:32 AM
Here's a source that's way cheaper. You'll have to attach your own leads. but it's worth $90 difference in price.

http://stores.ebay.com/WeaverInd

Dewayne
08-12-2008, 02:56 PM
I received my graphite plates Sat. and drilled them out today. What an easy material to work with.

djerickd
08-12-2008, 03:06 PM
after you build the cell tell us how it works!

Dewayne
08-12-2008, 04:13 PM
Ther is a new forum that has started up. I believe it is going to be a major source for Graphite plate generators. I will be posting my info there. There has been some post here about graphite and it seems to be shunned the people here

Here is the link:
http://forum.beawindhog.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?

I have posted some good info I have grathered from other people there already.

Smith03Jetta
08-12-2008, 04:44 PM
You can get Graphite Rods by taking apart a used Lantern Battery. 4 or 8 cells. Do not snip the wires already attached to the graphite rods. They can be used for connectors instead of having to figure out ways to connect electricity to them.

Phantom240
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
What good is graphite? I really have no info on how graphite would be a good material, so if any of you have some info, could you please fill me in? Its interesting me to say the least.

Dewayne
08-12-2008, 07:07 PM
read this

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=620

If this isn"t enough try GOOGLE

Westcoastrocks
08-12-2008, 08:40 PM
How would you connect power to the plates? Drill a hole and shove a wire down it?

Phantom240
08-12-2008, 09:10 PM
read this

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=620

If this isn"t enough try GOOGLE

That thread was pretty useless.

HomeGrown
08-12-2008, 09:13 PM
I received my graphite plates Sat. and drilled them out today. What an easy material to work with.

What size plates, what thickness, how many, and what is the cell configuration?

Dewayne
08-12-2008, 10:33 PM
What size plates, what thickness, how many, and what is the cell configuration?


I got 6 plates, they are .250"x4"x6" and the config will be +-+-+-.
I'll be using a PWM (modulating the plates at about 28khz)
and a EFIE along with Vacuum.

I'm baseing all this information on the works of a person that has been
using Graphite plates for over 3 years.

Omega
08-12-2008, 10:48 PM
I get real uneasy with ads that have numerous misspellings, as the graphite gen listing on craigslist has. The technical aspects are omitted, also.

I'll stay on the sidelines on the graphite issue until I see some concrete successes.

Dewayne
08-12-2008, 10:52 PM
If you would like to see the draws of my design goto the listed link.

http://forum.beawindhog.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1218515372/s-0/

Omega
08-12-2008, 11:30 PM
If you would like to see the draws of my design goto the listed link.

http://forum.beawindhog.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1218515372/s-0/

I looked at your design; looks interesting.

I also read some of the info on the thread linked to and I'm amazed at the statements like "graphite (cells) don't make heat...", "graphite cells need to be heated", "forget neutral plates" and so forth. I would think that the electrical properties within a cell would be the same, regardless of electrode material. If current is passed through the electrolyte solution (or even water), especially without neutrals, heat is going to be a factor.

I'll follow this off shoot of the HHO world with great interest.

HomeGrown
08-13-2008, 05:56 PM
If you would like to see the draws of my design goto the listed link.

http://forum.beawindhog.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1218515372/s-0/


Nice drawings, Dewayne! I like the simple, robust cell design. I'm tempted to give graphite a try myself, as it has properties that are superior to stainless. Namely, lack of heat build-up and ease of machining. As long as it holds up as well as stainless, it sounds like a good concept.

Dewayne
08-13-2008, 07:13 PM
Nice drawings, Dewayne! I like the simple, robust cell design. I'm tempted to give graphite a try myself, as it has properties that are superior to stainless. Namely, lack of heat build-up and ease of machining. As long as it holds up as well as stainless, it sounds like a good concept.

In the drawing of the ABS housing you will notice I have the nylon rod touching the inside walls. This is to give the plates some stability side to side.

HomeGrown
08-13-2008, 09:51 PM
In the drawing of the ABS housing you will notice I have the nylon rod touching the inside walls. This is to give the plates some stability side to side.


Yep, I noticed (and approved) of that. ;)

Boltazar
08-13-2008, 10:27 PM
OK Guys, Graphite appears the way to go but how DO you attach wires to it. On a miter saw I have a brush had to be replaced and I noticed the braided wire was just pushed onto a hole. Is that why beawindhog glued his wires in. Like to know if neutrals are needed. I'll look into a source for graphite.

Dewayne
08-14-2008, 01:50 AM
OK Guys, Graphite appears the way to go but how DO you attach wires to it. On a miter saw I have a brush had to be replaced and I noticed the braided wire was just pushed onto a hole. Is that why beawindhog glued his wires in. Like to know if neutrals are needed. I'll look into a source for graphite.

If you look at my drawing you will see two blue lines go up wards. This is 1/4" S/S threaded rod that will be going through the top of the cell and the wires will attach to them.

Graphite is rather brittle and I do not want to crack the plates. In my discussions with other people doing a physical hard connection is the easiest way.

A cheap source for graphite is noted in one of my first post in this thread.

Boltazar
08-25-2008, 09:59 PM
GLUE Diaelectric Glue

jjb2888
08-27-2008, 04:53 PM
I looked at your design; looks interesting.

I also read some of the info on the thread linked to and I'm amazed at the statements like "graphite (cells) don't make heat...", "graphite cells need to be heated", "forget neutral plates" and so forth. I would think that the electrical properties within a cell would be the same, regardless of electrode material. If current is passed through the electrolyte solution (or even water), especially without neutrals, heat is going to be a factor.

I'll follow this off shoot of the HHO world with great interest.

That is correct. Graphite has a low resistance value meaning electricity passes through with ease. Now on the other end of the spectrum is stainless or any steel and iron which have high resistance. These types of wires are not used in homes because of the high heat they build due to the resistance they have( burn the house to the ground). Thats why copper and aluminum is used for that low resistance. Stainless is like putting your electric stove burner in the water and using for and electrode compared to graphite.

Stevo
08-27-2008, 07:07 PM
Pretty pricey stuff:

http://www.graphitestore.com/items_list.asp/action/prod/prd_id/488/cat_id/47

I would assume that this quality would work, but there is also EDM quality graphite as well. That is even more expensive. At this rate, you will start considering the future possibility of platinum (not that it's THAT expensive).

You are correct about the resistance, but electrolysis creates a certain amount of heat as well. I wonder what the resistance to electrolysis heat generation ratio would be total if tested formally?

Johnh
08-28-2008, 12:38 PM
I Dont believe that electrolysis produces any heat at all at theoretically ideal conditions in fact some heat must be provided from the environment to expand the gasses in an ideal cell.
Here is a simplified version of it. Much more technical papers are available if you subscribe to one of the scientific sites or go to a library
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html
I suspect some of the heat generated in our cells comes from the use of stainless which is nowhere near a perfect electrode
John

Arklain
08-28-2008, 02:50 PM
I posted this in another Forum but still applies

I am still new to this so correct me if I am wrong on anything.

I would assume that you would want to use the most Conductive Metal (low resistant) possible. This would increase your electrical efficiency and lower the amount of heat generated by resistant’s. With Copper being considered to be the best conductive metal is given an IACS of 100% (International Annealed Copper Standard, a unit of electrical conductivity for metals and alloys relative to a standard annealed copper conductor; an IACS value of 100% refers to a conductivity of 5.80 × 107 siemens per meter (58.0 MS/m).(wiki))

Silver, Pure has an IACS of 108.40%
Aluminum and its Alloys has an IACS of 64~25%
Stainless Steel 316 has an IACS of 2.3%.
Graphite has an IACS of 0.22%

Now how each metal withstands the process of electrolysis is a different matter

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm

Dewayne
08-28-2008, 04:53 PM
For those of you that wonder about graphite. The attached picture is after 45 seconds in cold tap water. It's running at 12vdc @ 23 Amps. I can't run it very long as my power supply is rated at 17 Amps continious load.

I'm still researching what I want to use for a housing. Without a housing I can't measure the output.

The plate arrangmet is 6ea. 4"x6"x.25", with plate spacing at .0625. The polarity is +-+-+-.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/n0ssy/DSCF0399.jpg

sp1r0
08-28-2008, 04:56 PM
That looks awesome can you post a video? Show the electrode out of the water? Doesn't look like .0625 spacing from that pic..

Dewayne
08-28-2008, 05:19 PM
That looks awesome can you post a video? Show the electrode out of the water? Doesn't look like .0625 spacing from that pic..


How's this? As you can see the plate spacing is really .060"

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/n0ssy/DSCF0400.jpg

This is a test setup for my plastes and in no way a finial configuration.

sp1r0
08-28-2008, 06:17 PM
Nice attention to detail. I guess that pic was straight DC, no PWM? Any electrolyte?

sp1r0
08-28-2008, 06:24 PM
So the thickness of those semiconductor plates may be the key to heat disappation. The thicker, the better when it comes to higher amps?

Painless
08-28-2008, 06:54 PM
I think the key to the heat dissipation is in the much lower resistance of graphite over stainless steel. Higher resistance = generated heat.

Well, dissipation is the wrong word here... with graphite's lower resistance, less heat is generated.

Dewayne
08-28-2008, 07:48 PM
So the thickness of those semiconductor plates may be the key to heat disappation. The thicker, the better when it comes to higher amps?

Yes, It was straight DC, no PWM and no electrolyte. I have been using tap water but there must be something in our water as it is turning brown. I'll have to try distilled water. Could also be the cheap screws and nut I'm using also.

I chose 1/4" plates because graphite is on the brittle side and I don't want any breakage from pot holes.

I got an e-mail from the person that is mentoring me and he said to decrease the plate spacing to .015. Guess I'll have to find some nylon shims.
He gave me some other tips but I want to try them before I post anything about it.

candyman55
08-29-2008, 06:19 AM
Dewayne, I think that the cause of your brown water is probably the copper wires that you have used to hook up the plates. If you are going to use wireing in the mix, unless it is some sort of stainless or graphite itself you will get brown gooey crap.

sp1r0
08-29-2008, 06:53 AM
I agree, i used copper wires to connect my SS316 plates to a battery and it will leach right through the stainless steel. Originally I thought maybe I had a high iron content or some other metal in the water because it looked like rust. I think if you try distilled water you will see the same results unless you use same metals/materials throughout.

sp1r0
08-29-2008, 06:57 AM
I think the key to the heat dissipation is in the much lower resistance of graphite over stainless steel. Higher resistance = generated heat.

Well, dissipation is the wrong word here... with graphite's lower resistance, less heat is generated.

I think you are wrong about that. Graphite is on the bottom of the list as another member has point out in an earlier post within this same thread... Click his link.
http://hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=10567&postcount=25

Painless
08-29-2008, 01:18 PM
I think you are wrong about that. Graphite is on the bottom of the list as another member has point out in an earlier post within this same thread... Click his link.
http://hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=10567&postcount=25

Hmm, that's interesting info, I was going by some posts that I'd read on other forums about graphite being less resistive and needing a cell heater as it doesn't produce any heat.

I'm also wondering, in this case, why do they use graphite rods in batteries if stainless steel is cheaper and a better conductor?

Any thoughts?

jjb2888
08-29-2008, 01:40 PM
easy way to check the resistance and compare take a ss plate and graphite plate of equal size and test it with an ohm meter. This will take the speculation out of everything.

overtaker
08-29-2008, 02:37 PM
Or possible an even distance apart on the face of both materials, say 3 inches?