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DaneDHorstead
08-13-2008, 04:24 PM
I am producing 17 plate (16 cell) electrodes, built to the following specs.

100 % non-magnetic 304 grade stainless steel

Plate thickness: 0.039 (1 mm)

Plate gap: 0.0445 (just slightly over 1.1 mm gap)

5 ea. Polarized plates 6.5" by 3", with one corner cut away 3/4" by 2" (removed part (angle cut) is 1.25" by 2", to allow for bolting of plates)

12 ea. Neutral plates 4.75" by 3".

Assembled plate design offers a total surface area of 491.5 square inches or 3.413 sq ft.

Each assembly, comes with four nylon nuts / bolts, and 64 ea. 1 mm nylon spacer washers.

Using 4 nylon bolts, one near each corner, we better maintain spacing standards, and can hold closer gap tollerance, for more production, and less heat.

Plates are designed to be assembled +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+

This assembly provides for a 12 volt input, and a 4 volt exiting current, allowing for two volt (water induction) differences, at each neutral plate, to provide for the 12 volt to 4 volt exiting current.

These assemblies will be available in wholesale lots of 100 units each, for $32.00 per unit, plus shipping cost.
Assemblies will come in a knockdown format, ready to be cross sanded, and assembled.

Stainless steel straps for polar connections, and stainless steel bolts are provided to cross connect similar pole plates.

Currently, 1,000 units are being manufactured, and we can produce more, when needed.

Larger discounts can be arranged, for larger volume orders.

These units will take an approximate 2 months to manufacture, and we ask only for parties interested, in wholesale bulk inventory, to contact us.

Note that absolutely no money is due, until we have products in hand.

This is a limited time offer, to determine wholesale interest.

Once products are on hand, only those who reserve products now, will qualify for these low prices.

Note also, that we can also mass produce other HHO items, in bulk (electrical in design, such as PWM, Coils, or MAP Enhances, or metal objects sich as O2 extenders).

E-mail DandDHorstead@comcast.net if interested.

I can send pictures, if needed.

BoyntonStu
08-13-2008, 08:55 PM
Hi!

Sounds good.Please show the wiring of the cell.

AFAIK The smallest cell area limits the total current.

I do not understand your total cell area calculation.

BoyntonStu

c02cutter
08-13-2008, 10:02 PM
I want a pic. the math you are saying in the post does not compute...[I am producing 17 plate (16 cell) electrodes] where does 16 cell come in??? when you say this...[5 ea. Polarized plates 6.5" by 3"]

[5 ea. Polarized plates 6.5" by 3"] which means the there are 5 "N" plates per cell.... 5 multiplied buy 16 = 80...???

[12 ea. Neutral plates 4.75" by 3".] which means there is 12 each "N" plates per cell... 12 x 16 = 192...

Think you ought to get with your Chinese manufactures on this. You seem like a spammer/scammer to me. You nothing about what it is you are talking about.

Just a point since I got slammed in my thread... Again, Buy USA!!!

LOL, they got different math there, and don't know how to convert to standard from metric. Do remember that 25.1=.039840637” which is a millimeter rounded without going into it beyond a TI-30Xa.
The plan truth here is no matter how it is wired, none of this adds up. I suggest DaneDHorstead should put up a video, and show his math with all this. It does not compute. to all those that may have fallen for the spiel.

On top of that I am not afraid to purchase a cell, I wanna see it work. I'm in for one, not a thousand or as an investor as you are putting this thread. I will take the chance and send you the $32.00 but after the unit is in hand buy you And I will post video of all results of the cell you describe.


LOL, they got different math there, and don't know how to convert to standard from metric

c02cutter
08-13-2008, 11:21 PM
Since I got hijacked that bad I need to vent a bit more. If they come in a [Assemblies will come in a knockdown format, ready to be cross sanded, and assembled.] Does that mean I have to purchase 100 units and take them apart and physically cross sand them to work?

Another thing here is the 2 months to produce... My question here, is there a single soul that has one of these in hand today? If so lets see what it can do! Video is a wonderful thing for the people that want to experiment with a concept that we are working on. Don't hide as it is important to what we are doing in this forum.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 10:40 AM
Their math is based on a standard multiplication factor of ten, where you don't even seem to grasp the concept that a single plate has two sides!

We use standards, such as 12 inches to a foot, 3 ft to a yard, and break an inch down into halfs, quarters, 8ths, 16ths, 32nds, or even thousandths.

There is absolutely no common standard, to our measurement system, where the metric system is always based on a division/multiplication factor of ten. That holds true to the smalles measurement, and even to the girth of the earth, or beyond.

As stated above, where you have difficulty grasping the concept that each plate has two sides, I would be hard pressed to have you understand that they too round numbers up, or down to make cuts. We also have to calculate a loss of total area, due to hole punches, for bolting, and washer overlap, as those surface areas are not going to be in contact with water/catalyst solutions.

As an example, we tend use 1/4 inch increments, where the metric converisin is 6.35 mm.

I can convert an Imperial measurement to metric, which might carry out to five or six decimal points. They will not cut to a six decimal equivilant, and neither would you!

When cutting, you can bet hard cash, that that measurement would be rounded to the nearest whole number.

Nor, have you calculated the diagonally cut away edge, of the polar plates, or made allowances for the loss of surface area, due to the creation of the holes, to bolt the device together.

True, there are some basic differences in actual measurements, as both we, and they, tend to round a given measurement to a specific. Such a trend would be true in any society.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 10:56 AM
I did not hijack your thread!

When you discussed the concept that parts / materials are available on the cheap (if you look for them), you opened that door for anyone to enter, and comment as to alternatives to high prices for needed materials, or assemblies.

While you may have started that thread, don't think for a moment that you own it!

A forum is a place where all can gather, to openly discuss ideas, concepts, and/or alternatives to standards of thinking.

Forums have been around for thousands of years, and they are not property, of any given individual.


When you create a thread, for open discussion, and you throw the idea, that alternative sources are available for materials, don't be too surprised if someone adds other ideas, or sources to it!

Those ideas may not agree to your manor of thinking, but you opened that door.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 11:11 AM
I did not hijack your thread!

When you discussed the concept that parts / materials are available on the cheap (if you look for them), you opened that door for anyone to enter, and comment as to alternatives to high prices for needed materials, or assemblies.

While you may have started that thread, don't think for a moment that you own it!

A forum is a place where all can gather, to openly discuss ideas, concepts, and/or alternatives to standards of thinking.

Forums have been around for thousands of years, and they are not property, of any given individual.


When you create a thread, for open discussion, and you throw the idea, that alternative sources are available for materials, don't be too surprised if someone adds other ideas, or sources to it!

Those ideas may not agree to your manor of thinking, but you opened that door.
Yes! I do have several working models.

No!

You do not have to take them apart, to sand them. You don't have to sand them if you don't want to, and they are alrerady apart, ready to be sanded. But unsanded, they will not produce anywhere near their possible potential. I sand mine five ways, horizontal, vertical, diagonally (both directions) and finish off with a circular direction, holding the plates with vice grips, and using a table top belt sander with 80 grit belt.



The concept of a knock down product is, it comes in parts, to be assembled.

All the parts are there, but you put them together.

I have photos, but no video!

Anyone interested, give me an e-mail if you are interested in the photos.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 11:27 AM
Hi!

Sounds good.Please show the wiring of the cell.

AFAIK The smallest cell area limits the total current.

I do not understand your total cell area calculation.

BoyntonStu
Sir;

The cells are not "wired together". Instead, the incorporate 304 stainless steel straps, which are connected to the three terminals on one side (two on the other), using stainless bolts, and nuts. Each strap, and plate is secured with two nuts, which sandwhich the plate between them.

The very term "wired" tends to leave one to think it may possibly be copper, or possibly even aliminum.

We use nothing but 100% completely non-magnetic stainless steel.

We test the materials with a huge magnet, and if there is even the slightest bit of iron in them, they will be drawn to the magnet.

However, if there is no movement, there is no iron, and consequently no measurable corrosion, if used with potassium hydroxide, or sodium hydroxide only (baking soda, and some other catalyst, do leave a reside on stainless steel, and limit HHO production).


I have photos of the cell, but it is put together with two nylon bolts, where the production models will have four, to better control plate spacing.

send e-mail contact info, and I will send photos.

BoyntonStu
08-14-2008, 12:26 PM
Their math is based on a standard multiplication factor of ten, where you don't even seem to grasp the concept that a single plate has two sides!

And edges, why not count them too?

Only ONE side if a cell plate produces gas.

And only 1 plate in a cell of 2 plates produces Hydrogen.

AFAIK No other person in Hydroxy cell discussion ever counts both sides of a single plate or counts the area of both cell plates.

Wanna buy 20 sq yards of carpet; I count both sides?

BoyntonStu

Stratous
08-14-2008, 01:45 PM
LMAO, that was funny

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 02:21 PM
Their math is based on a standard multiplication factor of ten, where you don't even seem to grasp the concept that a single plate has two sides!

And edges, why not count them too?

Only ONE side if a cell plate produces gas.

And only 1 plate in a cell of 2 plates produces Hydrogen.

AFAIK No other person in Hydroxy cell discussion ever counts both sides of a single plate or counts the area of both cell plates.

Wanna buy 20 sq yards of carpet; I count both sides?

BoyntonStu
I agree with the concept that the outsides of the two polarized end plates do not produce a relative amount gas, as they have no direct opposition current (but do get stray induction currents, and produce minute gas amounts).

The outsides of the end plates, and edge widths (plate thickness edges), are almost irrelative to gas production, and anyone wasting his time calculating the 1 mm wide surface area, of each of these plates, to include it in total surface area, should be in a looney bin.

Those edges, like the two outside surfaces of the end plates, only react with stray currents (not intentionally inducted currents)

The relavant areas lie on every plates surface, that faces another inducted, or pole plate, which includes both sides of every plate, excluding the outer surface of the end plates.

These are set up in +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+ array, where only the two outside surfaces of the positive end plates, are turned away from an opposing plate, or neutral plate, and thus all of the plates with the exception of the end plates, are productive on both sides.

The two end plates produce a measurable amount of gas, on their inside (reactionary) surfaces only!

However the question posed, was relative to total plate "area", not total "production area".


Further, with the spacing held to 0.0445 (1.1 mm), production (caused by induction) is increased, as compared to cells with greater spacing.

The amount of voltage induced, is relative to the distance between the electrical conduits (in this case, plates). Further spacing, provides less induced current, and closer spacing provides greater induction (and increased HHO production).

In truth closer spacing yet, would further increase production, but you get very dangerously close to one plate touching another.

It is for that reason, we decided to use spacers, and bolts at each corner, which for the most part, guarantees uniformity of spacing, and less tweaking, or bending of plates.

The plates are punched, rather than drilled, and no matter how sharp your tools are, there is always a slight bit of deformity to the punched metals. Securing all four corners with spacers, is the only true way to secure this minute measurement of water flow between all of the plates facing each other!

Note that Stanley Myers recomended a 0.045" gap (we use 0.0445 gap)

Westcoastrocks
08-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Yes please post pictures. 32$ for a cell that big seems cheap. Maybe I read it wrong

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 03:29 PM
Their math is based on a standard multiplication factor of ten, where you don't even seem to grasp the concept that a single plate has two sides!

And edges, why not count them too?

Only ONE side if a cell plate produces gas.

And only 1 plate in a cell of 2 plates produces Hydrogen.

AFAIK No other person in Hydroxy cell discussion ever counts both sides of a single plate or counts the area of both cell plates.

Wanna buy 20 sq yards of carpet; I count both sides?

BoyntonStu
Adressing your comments ....

Only ONE side if a cell plate produces gas.

And only 1 plate in a cell of 2 plates produces Hydrogen.

That is essentially incorrect, using only one positive plate, and one negative plate (with no neutral plates)!

But it does not hold true when using neutral plates, placed between the charged plates.

Oxygen is naturally a positively charged atom, while Hydrogen, is naturally a negative charge. For that reason the two elements bond together (opposites attract, likes repell)

However due to the size of the molecules, multiple (2) atoms of hydrogen are electricly attracted to the oxygen atom, creating a strong bond, but imballanced structure.

The positive plates (in this case three), are in no way electricly connected to any other plates. Plates which do not carry a direct positive charge, all naturally attract the negatively charged hydrogen. But, in varying degrees of efficiency, due to the depreciating values of inducted current from plate to plate. Each plate in sequence, suffers an approximate 2 volt drop in inducted current, until reaching the negatively charged plate, where current exits.


Catalyst formerly mixed into the formula, causes the negatively charged hydrogen, to adopt the characteristics of the sodium based matter, which causes the naturally negative charge of the hydrogen atoms, to change to a positively charged molecule. The catalyst (which is always some type of a sodium (salt) based substance), does not react with the Oxygen, but instead changes the hydrogen, to also become positively charged.


Introducing catalyst, confuses the magnetic attraction process of the poles, and causes the naturally negative hydrogen atoms to take on a positive charge (being pulled to the negative, and neutral poles)

Because all of these plates are not connected to the positive, they all attract the far heavier count of the hydrogen atoms, which forces the unchanged positive oxygen atoms to repell away from the like charged hydrogen, and away from the positive pole, leaving only the posibility of floating to the surface, repelling everything in the water.


Because like charged elements naturally repell away from each other, what was H2O now becomes HHO, as their electronic structure repulses each other.

Like introducing two unrelated women, and forcing them to reside under the same roof, they can't get far enough away, from each other.

Separately, these two elements are the most explosive elements, in the known universe!

The hydrogen atoms far outnumber the oxygen atoms, and repulsed by them, they gather on both sides of all the neutral plates, and the negative plates.

The Oxygen atoms are positive, and do not cling to the positive terminals, but being far out numbered by the now positive hydrogen atoms, they can not be attracted those plates, so they are cast off, to rise to the top, as also the vast number of hydrogen atoms also rise.

But even in a gaseous state, they do not mix well.

Note that when burned, the hydrogen returns to is't negative state, and water drips from the tailpipe, as the elements again become attracted to each other.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 03:40 PM
Yes please post pictures. 32$ for a cell that big seems cheap. Maybe I read it wrong
You did not read it wrong!

We use Chinese labor, and buy through Chinese sources, who do not get raped with our heavilly devalued dollar!

You can't buy the raw mateials here in the states, for what I can sell a completed electrode for!

For some reason I can't post pix to this forum, but can send to an e-mail address.


Send me an e-mail address, and I'll send pix.

Note in the pix, we use two nylon bolts, but we are changing the design to use four (and 64 spacers).


My intent is to wholesale, these, and other HHO parts, or needed items. That is why I insist on one hundred unit orders.

Quantity will automatically separate the men from the boys, and those who properly set up now, will reap huge profits, as more and more people become aware of the potential of HHO.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 05:00 PM
Yes please post pictures. 32$ for a cell that big seems cheap. Maybe I read it wrong
The following link will take you to pictures, and more information........


http://shuttermotor.tripod.com/

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 05:46 PM
Yes please post pictures. 32$ for a cell that big seems cheap. Maybe I read it wrong
West coast...........

I followed the link to your fuel cell, and I have to say that you seem to be big on wire ties1

The plastic in wireties is way too soft, and dangerous to wrap around your plates if that is all that holds them together.

You state 1/8 inch spacing.. That is 0.125 "

I use spacing that is 0.0445 (approximately 1/3 the spacing you use)

Your plates also are thicker, which creates aditional heat.

I run a similar 17 plate design, using thinner plates, and a far narrower gap, at a constant 128 F, and 10 amps.

c02cutter
08-14-2008, 06:33 PM
Lmfao!!! Before you think I don't grasp the concept of math you are out there. You ought to know who it is you spout to. You have really shown us here what it is you don't know....

Stu I need some carpet...

Westcoastrocks
08-14-2008, 06:33 PM
So far I have not had any problems with the zip ties. But if i do it would be very hard for me to change it because i have not tools to drill holes into the cell plates. Not unless you can think of a better way to secure them.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 06:46 PM
So far I have not had any problems with the zip ties. But if i do it would be very hard for me to change it because i have not tools to drill holes into the cell plates. Not unless you can think of a better way to secure them.
I would consider using some other type of substance to wrap the electrodes other than wire ties, or in addition to the wire ties.

I read or saw something somewhere on youtube, where a guy wrapped a very substancial amount of electrical tape around the outside of his cell, leaving the top and bottom open for flow.

In fact he said it aided production, as it forces water flow between the plates, and out the top.

With the heat you create, I wouldn't trust the wire ties.

DaneDHorstead
08-14-2008, 07:41 PM
Lmfao!!! Before you think I don't grasp the concept of math you are out there. You ought to know who it is you spout to. You have really shown us here what it is you don't know....

Stu I need some carpet...
My God!

Man, you can't even read, how could anyone expect you to do any math!

You state...

"I want a pic. the math you are saying in the post does not compute...[I am producing 17 plate (16 cell) electrodes] where does 16 cell come in??? when you say this...[5 ea. Polarized plates 6.5" by 3"]

[5 ea. Polarized plates 6.5" by 3"] which means the there are 5 "N" plates per cell.... 5 multiplied buy 16 = 80...???"

Huh??? Where did you grasp that concept?

Are you for real?

Now that I understand your dissability, I'll explain to you again, this time real slow, and I'll help you with the math too!

The cells comprimise the gaps between the plates, where HHO gathers on on the plates, just as a battery has cells, where electrolyte produces current, instead of the vice versa happening, to produce HHO.

Is that too hard?

OK!


Then, lets do it this way......

The cell concept could be easilly understood, if you were in jail.....

It does not compromise the walls, floor or ceiling, or even the bars. But instead, it incorporates the area between the walls (or maybe the distance between some peoples ears). It's kinda like a great big empty place (in some cases, real empty)!

Got it?

There are a total of five plates that connect to the poles (on both sides), they total an area ten times greater than the surface area of one plate which is 17.25 sq in (just incase you can't calculate it, that is 172.5 sq in) Ten times any given measurment, is real difficult, if you don't understand Metrics.

It's kinda like the cell thing.........

You move the decimal, to the next vacant spot, between the numbers (but you have to be real careful which way you move it).

In addition, there are 12 neutral plates, each compromising 13.5 sq in, (on each side), 24 sides total (24 times 13.5 = 324 sq inches) That was a hard one, so I did it for you!

Adding the two numbers together, we have what is known as total surface area.

And yes, I understand that the two outside end plate surfaces, only produce from stray currents, but that is, the way it is!

And, as for buying carpet, I'd like to see anyone buy one without a bottom surface!

The price of the bottom of the carpet, is incorporated into the price of the top side (they just don't tell you that, so you don't get too upset).











There are 5, the pole plates (2 neg. - 3 pos), each has 3 neutral plates between them.

5 ea pole plates, and 12 ea neutral plates, set up

Westcoastrocks
08-14-2008, 09:04 PM
I would love to buy that cell for my other vehicles. But buying 100 at a time that is just to costly. What is the price that you sell them individually?

computerclinic
08-14-2008, 09:14 PM
I saw the pix,

It looks to me that when he was sanding or assembling, some of the neutrals got just enough out of shape that they are nearly touching...even close to the electrodes...

Maybe its not so important that they be that close when not in water and vibrating (such as a car does when the engine is running) but I would think that the plates would be much safer if the gaps were consistant, I mean after all, if you are going to have close tolerances thats good, but too close can be a risky hazard.

Perhaps larger radius washers, a thicker gauge material, or even more precautions and care in assembly would better the design.

Im not trying to down your products, im just making suggestions based on my observations.

I would like to say that Dane and co2 cutter should stop stomping on eachother. No one gets a good reputation by being argumentive. If you both have items for sale thats good, but please remember that your potential customers will likely read all of your threads....

DaneDHorstead
08-15-2008, 12:51 PM
I saw the pix,

It looks to me that when he was sanding or assembling, some of the neutrals got just enough out of shape that they are nearly touching...even close to the electrodes...

Maybe its not so important that they be that close when not in water and vibrating (such as a car does when the engine is running) but I would think that the plates would be much safer if the gaps were consistant, I mean after all, if you are going to have close tolerances thats good, but too close can be a risky hazard.

Perhaps larger radius washers, a thicker gauge material, or even more precautions and care in assembly would better the design.

Im not trying to down your products, im just making suggestions based on my observations.

I would like to say that Dane and co2 cutter should stop stomping on eachother. No one gets a good reputation by being argumentive. If you both have items for sale thats good, but please remember that your potential customers will likely read all of your threads....
I agree, as to the need for better control of spacing, and that is why, I now use four nylon bolts (one at each corner) Each plate is separated by an "approximate" 1.1 mm washer.

Further, I suspendthe electrodes in the canister, so they do not touch any of the sides, or bottom. Bouncing, has no effect on them, as the only thing they hit, is water.

I emphasize the word approximate, before Darth Vador calls me out, on the mathematics of it.

I also agree the bickering should stop, but he projects to the world, that I am using 5 neutral plates between pole plates. And, wrongly calculates total surface area.

I never said any such thing, and in fact, if I had, the entire electrode would be worthless, as a two volt drop between cells +NNNNN- would produce Zero volts, at the exiting point!

It would in fact be 12 10 8 6 4 2 0, with 12, and 0 representing the entering, and exiting currents. Obviously "0" volts, can not exit, as 0 volts, is a non existing number, or electrical current.

For that very reason, generators with neutral plates need to be wired in parallel, and fused/breaker separately. Wireing two such generators in series would input only 4 volts to the second generator, which would not reach the exiting point of the same, suffering a two volt drop between plates.

Further, the lack of visual evidance of oxygen production, on the opposite side of every so called neutral plate, does not mean that its surface area, does not come into play.

Because the electrons in the hydrogen atoms (after dissassociation), outweigh the electrons of the Oxygen atoms, by a two to one ratio, they are by the laws of physics, drawn to the negative poles, where they cling. Remenber, that at this point, dissassotiation has taken place, and the hydrogen atoms are changed for a natural negative, to positively charged atoms (attracted to the opposite pole).

The Oxygen atoms are twenty times larger, that a single hydrogen atom, but the shear number of the smaller atoms, makes it impossible for the oxygen atom to go to the negative pole, as it is also repelled by the like charged hydrogen, which resides there.

Size has no effect whatsoever, in the electrical strength of the atoms. Each atom (of both elements), is now equal in strength, but there are twice as many hydrogen atoms (and hydrogen electrons). So, by shear force, it takes precidence being attracted to the opposite negative pole, as well as the negative sides of the neutral (inducted) poles.

Further, oxygen (also positively charged) can not cling to the positive poles of any of the plates, as they also repell like charges.

There is no other place for the oxygen atoms to go, but to try to escape the water (thus the term dissassociation of water).

Because of their shear size (approximately 20 to one), they stir the water, and break the bonds of the hydrogen atoms, in the rukus. (note we also cross sand the plates, to help break this bond).

As for the neutral plates, they have no physical contact with a power source, and rely strictly on induced current. Inducted curent, is magnetical in nature, and thus requires that both fields be present on opposites, of the same metalic item (in this case plates). That does not mean opposite "ends" of the plates, but instead effects the opposite sides of each plate, as each plate faces, each other. I know that sounds difficult to do, but it is possible being the plates are bolted, or otherwise bonded together, leaving intentional gaps.


Hydogen can easilly be visualized, gathering on one side only of each plate, however it is the other side of that plate that repells the oxygen atom, which stirs the soup! Because the repelled oxygen atom is twenty times larger (outnumbered 2:1), it actually has ten times the production value of the hydrogen producing sides.

It is that shear volume, that causes the soup to stir!

Both sides of the plates in question, do play a very important part of the process, and not counting them both in total surface area, is denying the actual process, as it happens.

It would be comparable, to the pre Colunbus era, when the earth was still flat, and the sun still rotated around us! Or before gravity existed!

Obviously, the earth was not flat, and people didn't float in mid air prior to Newton, but the laws of physics, had to be re-written.

We are at yey another such junction, in relation to the laws of physics.

The point is, just because you only see hydrogen bubbles clinging to one side of the plate, does not mean that the other side of the plate does nothing at all.

Without the other side of the plate repulsing the oxygen, dissassotion of water would not take place!

DaneDHorstead
08-15-2008, 01:30 PM
I agree, as to the need for better control of spacing, and that is why, I now use four nylon bolts (one at each corner) Each plate is separated by an "approximate" 1.1 mm washer.

Further, I suspendthe electrodes in the canister, so they do not touch any of the sides, or bottom. Bouncing, has no effect on them, as the only thing they hit, is water.

I emphasize the word approximate, before Darth Vador calls me out, on the mathematics of it.

I also agree the bickering should stop, but he projects to the world, that I am using 5 neutral plates between pole plates. And, wrongly calculates total surface area.

I never said any such thing, and in fact, if I had, the entire electrode would be worthless, as a two volt drop between cells +NNNNN- would produce Zero volts, at the exiting point!

It would in fact be 12 10 8 6 4 2 0, with 12, and 0 representing the entering, and exiting currents. Obviously "0" volts, can not exit, as 0 volts, is a non existing number, or electrical current.

For that very reason, generators with neutral plates need to be wired in parallel, and fused/breaker separately. Wireing two such generators in series would input only 4 volts to the second generator, which would not reach the exiting point of the same, suffering a two volt drop between plates.

Further, the lack of visual evidance of oxygen production, on the opposite side of every so called neutral plate, does not mean that its surface area, does not come into play.

Because the electrons in the hydrogen atoms (after dissassociation), outweigh the electrons of the Oxygen atoms, by a two to one ratio, they are by the laws of physics, drawn to the negative poles, where they cling. Remenber, that at this point, dissassotiation has taken place, and the hydrogen atoms are changed for a natural negative, to positively charged atoms (attracted to the opposite pole).

The Oxygen atoms are twenty times larger, that a single hydrogen atom, but the shear number of the smaller atoms, makes it impossible for the oxygen atom to go to the negative pole, as it is also repelled by the like charged hydrogen, which resides there.

Size has no effect whatsoever, in the electrical strength of the atoms. Each atom (of both elements), is now equal in strength, but there are twice as many hydrogen atoms (and hydrogen electrons). So, by shear force, it takes precidence being attracted to the opposite negative pole, as well as the negative sides of the neutral (inducted) poles.

Further, oxygen (also positively charged) can not cling to the positive poles of any of the plates, as they also repell like charges.

There is no other place for the oxygen atoms to go, but to try to escape the water (thus the term dissassociation of water).

Because of their shear size (approximately 20 to one), they stir the water, and break the bonds of the hydrogen atoms, in the rukus. (note we also cross sand the plates, to help break this bond).

As for the neutral plates, they have no physical contact with a power source, and rely strictly on induced current. Inducted curent, is magnetical in nature, and thus requires that both fields be present on opposites, of the same metalic item (in this case plates). That does not mean opposite "ends" of the plates, but instead effects the opposite sides of each plate, as each plate faces, each other. I know that sounds difficult to do, but it is possible being the plates are bolted, or otherwise bonded together, leaving intentional gaps.


Hydogen can easilly be visualized, gathering on one side only of each plate, however it is the other side of that plate that repells the oxygen atom, which stirs the soup! Because the repelled oxygen atom is twenty times larger (outnumbered 2:1), it actually has ten times the production value of the hydrogen producing sides.

It is that shear volume, that causes the soup to stir!

Both sides of the plates in question, do play a very important part of the process, and not counting them both in total surface area, is denying the actual process, as it happens.

It would be comparable, to the pre Colunbus era, when the earth was still flat, and the sun still rotated around us! Or before gravity existed!

Obviously, the earth was not flat, and people didn't float in mid air prior to Newton, but the laws of physics, had to be re-written.

We are at yey another such junction, in relation to the laws of physics.

The point is, just because you only see hydrogen bubbles clinging to one side of the plate, does not mean that the other side of the plate does nothing at all.

Without the other side of the plate repulsing the oxygen, dissassotion of water would not take place!
I hope everyone reads the former reply, and thinks this process through, to conclusion.

I can not overemphasize the importance of the second side of each plate, even if no visual evidence of production is seen on the second side.

Because both oxygen and the now altered polarity of the hydrogen atoms are now both charged positive, only one element will be attracted to the negative (opposite) pole, through the commonly held laws of nature.

Hydrogen now has twice the electrons of the oxygen atoms, because hydrogen has twice the count of atoms. Thus hydrogen, attracts (and clings) to all negative sides of every plate in the neutrals, and the negative pole plate.

It repels the oxygen atoms, which are also repelled by the positive poles, of both the polarixed positive plate, and the positively inducted sides, of the neutral plates.

That means oxygen atoms are now repulsed by everything surrounding them, and they try to escape the water solution, causing a boiling type stir.

Oxygen is repulsed from all the positive plates (including neutral plates with inducted current), and thus do not "gather" oxygen, but in fact repell approximately ten times the actual volume of the produced hydrogen.

Because the oxygen atoms are repulsed, there is no visual evidence of production on these plate sides. Yet, they produce ten times the actual volume of the visually active sides.

The oxygen atoms seem to boil, in effort to escape the water solution, which causes many of the hydrogen atoms to also stir in the soup.

Sanding the plates helps to break this bond as well, by creating cross cut ridges in the plates to break surface tension.

john29302
08-27-2008, 09:39 PM
gap them .063 or 1.6 mm cuz others have tried different gaps and they dont produce as much. use lye and distilled water, say around 1n teaspoon per quart to start. plates should be less than 2.4 volts, water and lye behaves different than say copper. will leak more and heat will generate more if you use a higher voltage. leakage is waste. always place an insulator on all but the top, wher you leave about a 3/8 gap for bubbles to escape.i use cutting board and draw together with bolts duh but if you act an expert you should not be 3 gapping :eek:

john29302
08-27-2008, 09:54 PM
what a windbag. bad science no facts. all cells have to have a 0 volt, or exiting potential less than the other plate or plates. parrallel plates? 12 volts or 13.8 between all plates? play bingo but drop electronics and get to your point without the bad science

leob1000
08-27-2008, 10:06 PM
OK hear is what needs to happen inside the water of a cell the electric needs to be directed to go through all of your plates not all of them have to be connected to power supply they need to be insulated from one another with out voltage going around your neutrals plates if you need to insulate the side and top and bottom whatever it takes to have voltage go through all the plates

crrrock
08-28-2008, 04:14 AM
Coupla points....
I may be wrong, but
1)
I thought the composition of water (H2O) was (H+) + (H+) + (O--)
Now, doesn't that make Oxygen negative?
I thought the 2H2 (H+H+) gave up a (+) at the neg plate (cathode) and liberated from the 2(O--)
Therefore the (H) component is produced at the cathode.

2)
Hydrogen and Oxygen are not the most explosive on earth.
Hydrogen is extremely flammable, but Oxygen can not burn.
Oxygen is an Oxidiser and assists combustion.
HHO is in a pure stoichometric ratio, and thus becomes very volatile.

3)
Dunno about your claim of converting Hydrogen to positive charge (which it already is, I believe) from negative charge. How do you do that?

4)
I think the electrons do not "cling" to the plates, but become part of the electron flow that we know as current.

my 2c worth

crrrock
Oz.

1973dodger
08-28-2008, 04:47 AM
Danedhorsestead,

I said I would not argue with you concerning your thoughts on oxygen repulsing, so I want.

I just wanted to chime in on keeping spacing uniform with our plates. I use cabinet door bumpers on each corner and next to the screws, they are cheap and you can put as many as you feel you need to keep the spacing uniform. I use the stiff felt ones, which leave apprx. 1/16" between my plates. Other thicknesses are available. I think it makes quick work of putting a cell together, as well.

1973dodger

DaneDHorstead
08-28-2008, 06:23 PM
Danedhorsestead,

I said I would not argue with you concerning your thoughts on oxygen repulsing, so I want.

I just wanted to chime in on keeping spacing uniform with our plates. I use cabinet door bumpers on each corner and next to the screws, they are cheap and you can put as many as you feel you need to keep the spacing uniform. I use the stiff felt ones, which leave apprx. 1/16" between my plates. Other thicknesses are available. I think it makes quick work of putting a cell together, as well.

1973dodger
Dodger;

I would much prefer to agree, to dissagree, than to argue a point, that has no chance of changing your mind.

I will state that the link I gave you, leads to a downloadable PDF file, written by a Mager of the RAF., P Lithrtland Teed, in 1919. I can copy you with the PDF file, if you wish (using e-mail), but it will not upload to this forum.

He dedicates his study to two of his senior ranked colleages, both Brigadeer Generals, who died in the first world war, as the three of them, were responsible for creating the Hydrogen, that filled thousands of Blimps. Some of them very small, and some were a thousand feet long, by 200 ft in diameter. The war was in 1916, and his paper was published at the University of California / Berkley (now known as UCLA/ Berkley).

To produce this much Hydrogen successfully (which they did), they had to know a little bit more, than just a little something about producing hydrogen, as they needed to produce multiple billions of cubic feet, of hydrogen.

Note that all my measurements are stated in imperial, and not the metric, so numbers will not match, info provided in his papers.

In his notes, which have been read by mentors of this forum, as well as others, he states the following ...........

(note there are several large drawings on the pages, so the verbage streatches across several pages)

His words " At the same time Oxygen is liberated at the cathode, hydrogen is liberated at the anode (found at the very bottom of page 131.

On pages 133 to 135, he writes: " Filter Press Type - If in the diagramatic cell (Fig. 15) a plate of conducting material was placed between the anode, and the cathode, and current was switched on, hydrogen would be liberated at the original cathode, and oxygen would be liberated at the original anode, but besides this, it would be found that on one side of the plate facing the original cathode, oxygen would be liberated, while on it's other side hydrogen would be given off. Thus, it is seen that the intermediate platebecomes on one face an anode, and on the other a cathode.

Further, it will be found that the polarisation, or back EMF Resistance, of the cell from the original anode to the original cathode is doubled. Thus the placing of a conductor, to which no electrical connections have been made, turns the original cell into two cells."

____________________________________

Liberated, definition by Mirriam Webster:

Freed from, or opposed to, such as a sexually liberated woman.
________________________________

Given the definition of liberated, it can be established that Oxygen, in order to be liberated at the original anode, can only be electricly opposed to the positive polarity (likes repell, opposites attract) Thus it also, is a positively charged atom, and is not attracted to the anode, as you stated.

It is produced at the anode, but is not attracted to the anode. It is in fact electrically repulsed from the anode.

c02cutter
08-28-2008, 10:45 PM
The info is basic production of HHO, it is about time you substantiate to more than a having a moderator see the pictures. You can read and study all the documents that you have, but what does that say that say you have the design that has it all and more than has been proven as a good product. I am not being an ass on this, just pointing out a fact.

If you a need a disclaimer beyond what I am about to say, you need to look at the law.

As a manufacture of items involving HHO. I will not in any way disclose or manufacture any configuration of the production HHO that does not conflict with designs I already produce, or those that I have legal knowledge of .

And I never do, there are those that can vouch for this. But since you have not produced pictures, to public, or video of the cell in action.

I want to purchase one of these cells. This way the new guy here can see it in action. I'll do an honest bench test, and do video for the forum. If you are afraid or that, then quit already. You keep trying to prove a point on a cell that nobody has, and nobody has proven, but make claims that you do not substantiate.

Like I have said before sell me a cell at your claimed per cell price, and I will do a real world bench test on it.

So all know just to do this I purchased a new bench power supply that can deliver up to 30v at 50a and adjustable on both aspects for bench testing on anything I think up as a design or test.

DaneDHorstead
08-29-2008, 10:56 AM
http://shuttermotor.tripod.com/id11.html

This is not the first time I have posted this picture/webpage, although before, it was done with e-mailed link, and at least one viewer posted back, to say he thought one plate seemed, to touch another.

They are gaped at 1.1mm, using nylon washers, at the two Nylon bolts, centered at the width of the plates. 1.1mm is 0.04331", whis is extreemly comparable to stanley Meyers ideal gap of 0.045", as stated in his writings/drawings.

We agree, that the edges of the plates almost touch each other (but a volt ohm meter says they do not), so the production models will utilize four nylon bolts. Each will be set 3/4" by 3/4" away from the four corners of the smaller neutral plates, through all of the plates.



This will better guarantee equal spacing, and eliminate the possibility of any plate touching another.

One thousand of these 17 plate electrode sets are in production, and it will be an estimated 13 weeks before thay are ready, for distribution. I also have previously stated this timetable, for the release of these items.

Currently, the prototype models which I have, are in my three automobiles, and I am not about to dissassemble working units, to satisfy your dissalusions.

At no time, have I ever claimed to be an expert, on this subject, however I do have international contacts to make these units, at very affordable prices, and to offer them without greedy ambition. Note that I do not state that your undertaking is in any way greedy, and in fact I have taken your side, in a discussion, about what these plates can bring pricewise. I stated that, your ambition is to avail all, at a reasonable price, and that it in no way involved greed.

The pictured unit, in the link above, is hand made, and hand drilled, and as such the metal plates, are not 100% perfectly flat.

Production models, will be laser cut, both for the metal shapes, and holes. This will eliviate any twisting, or bending of the metal.

However I do have enough common sense to realize that the neutral plates work through EMF (inducted), and that each neutral plate, offers both the production anode, and production cathode relationships to the equasion, without physical electrical contact.

The 1919 study of the three ways to produce hydrogen, draws the same conclusion, and particularly agrees that the oxygen is liberated from (not attracted to) the anode, with the cathode dispensing the hydrogen. Note that his writing discusses the single neutral plate idealism, but the figure in his writing, shows a set up that litterally has hundreds of neutral plates (obviously charged with a much larger current input).

When you, like the man that wrote that study, have produced billions of cubic feet of hydrogen, I will respect your input.

Until then, I will not disrespect anything you have to say, as this is very much still an ongoing science. But, I will not bow down to your self proclaimed holliness (even if you are running for President)!

Who the hell elected you, to be God over all?

I do not owe you anything, and after you misquoted me previously, I'll be damned if I'm going to submit anything to your holliness, for your review, or criticisim!

Previously, you have misquoted me, as saying there were five neutral plates, when I said absolutely no such thing, ever! I have always stated that they are set up +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+, and I gave the total area, to include both sides of the plates. I realize, the outside of the cathode/anode plates play no role in production (excluding stray currents), and that also applies to the excess measurements of the pole plates height, as compared to that of the neutrals. But in no way, ever, did I state it used 5 neutrals, or totaled 80 sq inches!

Then you ranted and raved, about how the opposite sides of plates play no role in the production of the vapor/gases. The man that produced billions of cubic feet of Hydrogen, dissagrees with you, as well as do I. We live by basic laws of physics, and two of those laws are for every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction, and the attraction of opposite charged electrons, and repulsion of like charged electrons.

Both of those effects play into the production of Hydroxy, through the EMF produced by both sides of the neutral plates!

As stated above, I will respect your right to dissagree, but don't ever misquote me!

When you produce billions of cubic feet of hydrogen, I will better respect your theories (but I still won't bow to you).

computerclinic
08-30-2008, 11:57 AM
I think that I might change this thread title form the "wholesale 17 plate design" to Dane and Co2 Rant pages...lol

DaneDHorstead
09-25-2008, 03:33 PM
Up date to wholesale plates, and more..........

Folks keep writing me, to get a progress report, on the wholesale plates, and to find out if I still have more to sell?

Of the original 1000 each 17 plate assemblies, seven hundred of them are spoken for, but 300 remain available.

Below, is a link, to see the plates and other items that are nearing completion, and almost ready to be shipped. Note that the O2 extenders in the photo, are not zinc plated yet, and there are 2000 of them, in this order, as also are tens of thousands of the nylon bolts, and nylon spacers.

To see progress use this link:

http://shuttermotor.tripod.com/id12.html

I have over 70 thousand of the nylon spacers being made, and am producing an extra 15 thousand nylon bolts, over and beyond, what the plate assemblies require.

I also have the ability to mass produce PWMs, and MAP enhancers, but will only do so, once I have a commitment for 500 units either/each.

Note the PWMs and MAP enhancers can be bulk purchased for $16.00 per unit, and upwards.

DaneDHorstead
12-04-2008, 12:42 PM
They are here!

A long time coming, but they finally arrived.

This order, is for 304L grade plates (17 each, with matching grade hardware, complete with everything needed, to be fastened to your container, or drycell design.

Note if used for drycell, gaskets are not included, but can be cut from shower pan under liner, easilly available at Lowes/HD.

We have thousands of O2 extenders, and extra nylon bolts, 1 mm spacer washers, and nuts.

Special pricing to forum members only! $32.00 per set sold in 100 set qty. $42.00 per set purchased individually!

We also sell o2 extenders individually for $2.50 ea, or $1.50 ea, in 100 unit bulk.

Nylon bolts, spacer washers, and nuts also are available in bulk orders. We have over 15 thousand bolts/nuts, and over thirty thousand spacers available.

H2OPWR
12-05-2008, 01:38 AM
I am sorry to say what I have to say here. It is these type of profit takers that keeps HHO from really working. People who buy 100 of these kits will re-sell them individually for double or more what they paid. The people who spend their money and time on this in-iffecient design will forever be corrupted as to the actual potential of HHO. This design is made only because it can be produced cheaply absolutely no thought went into effeciency. For everyone who gets one of these systems and fails they will tell at least 10 others about getting shafted. All opf those people will forever be tainted as to HHO and it's wonderful promises. I am all for free enterprise and making money based on selling a great product that will help people avheive real results. A large or even huge profit should be made by people selling good products that actually work. I know for a fact that this product is just being made for a profit and will not help anyone acheive their goals. I hope you sleep well. I for one could not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DaneDHorstead
12-05-2008, 02:00 PM
I am sorry to say what I have to say here. It is these type of profit takers that keeps HHO from really working. People who buy 100 of these kits will re-sell them individually for double or more what they paid. The people who spend their money and time on this in-iffecient design will forever be corrupted as to the actual potential of HHO. This design is made only because it can be produced cheaply absolutely no thought went into effeciency. For everyone who gets one of these systems and fails they will tell at least 10 others about getting shafted. All opf those people will forever be tainted as to HHO and it's wonderful promises. I am all for free enterprise and making money based on selling a great product that will help people avheive real results. A large or even huge profit should be made by people selling good products that actually work. I know for a fact that this product is just being made for a profit and will not help anyone acheive their goals. I hope you sleep well. I for one could not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
H2OPWR;

Now that you've kicked both me, and the product into the dirt, I'd like tom inform you, that Boyton Stu used these same plates, to make several, of his Ameoba Drycells cells.

I provided them to him.

You assume that the design is strictly for open bath types of installations, and that I aim for huge profits. These plates are laser cut, and perfectly flat! There are absolutely no ridges, or dimples around the bolt holes, and they lay perfectly flat against one another, if stacked like a new deck of cards (without the spacers).

Your assumptions are incorrect! The plates are able to be used in either drycell applications, or the open bath style of use. And, if used in a drycell, the tops of the pole plates, can be used as a heat sink (either as is, or they can be finger cut, to better dissipate heat).

Plus, being assembled with four nylon bolts, it prevents plates from being pulled together, if mummy wrapping the units. The plate design uses very close to the ideal metal thickness, and gap, as prescribed by both Myers, and Dave Lawton, who both state the ideal metal, and gap, to be 0.045".

In truth, the closer the gap (if it can be properly maintained), provides a cooler, and more effective cell.

In a very recent, posting by Boynton Stu (to Painless), he states that he is now looking for a 0.025 plate, to get even better results. My plates are 0.039, as also are the spacer washers.

Stu is correct, that thinner is more effective, but it also is more problematic!

The thinner plates are more effective, as also is the closer spacing, but plates that are too thin, can warp (and can short). Four bolting the plates, at the corners, eases this concern, and I don't think you will ever find a better, cleaner cutting, of the metal.

I make no excuses for asking for a slight profit, but I also request you keep in mind that it is a slight profit!

Most people can't even purchase sheet goods at this price, and work the product by hand, to produce anything near this quality!

Even quality wall plates, will cost nearly as much, and have a multitude of problems associated with their use, in HHO applications.

Painless says he spent 1.60 per wall plate, and drilled a hole in his hand, assembling them.

Note he not only, had to work the materials, but he also had to buy additional hardware for it.

With my product, everything (except membrane gasket, if drycell design), is included, at a price under $2.00 per plate.

DaneDHorstead
12-05-2008, 03:23 PM
To further demonstrate just how flat the plates are, I added a photograph at my HHO Wholesale website, with 68 of these plates (with holes, ready to be assembled).

I leaned the first plate against the end of a nylon bolt, from an assembled unit, and stacked all 68 plates together, flat as can be.

That photo can be seen midway down the page, at the link below!

I further want to add, that H2OPWRs comments are out of place, as the thread properly is named "For Sale". What would you expect to find, in a For Sale listing, except items listed for sale?

And the already worked items, are indeed, only slightly more than raw materials cost!

H2OPWR
12-05-2008, 04:11 PM
To further demonstrate just how flat the plates are, I added a photograph at my HHO Wholesale website, with 68 of these plates (with holes, ready to be assembled).

I leaned the first plate against the end of a nylon bolt, from an assembled unit, and stacked all 68 plates together, flat as can be.

That photo can be seen midway down the page, at the link below!

I further want to add, that H2OPWRs comments are out of place, as the thread properly is named "For Sale". What would you expect to find, in a For Sale listing, except items listed for sale?

And the already worked items, are indeed, only slightly more than raw materials cost!

Dane. I am sorry for being so blunt. I did not intend to infur that the product can not work (which after reading the post I did). It clearly can make HHO. I am only thinking of the end consumer who is not Stu. 99% of the end consumer's who end up with the product will not have 1% of his knowledge. I was not knocking listing any product on the For Sale Thread. This thread is the perfect place to sell a kit like yours because the people here are clearly above average HHO minded people. If they are not they soon will be. My problem was the 100 cell approach that will have re-sellers selling a product with a purpose to people trying to get something and getting only a bad experience (that is what I should have posted). After I made the post I wished I had not and again I am sorry. I should keep my thoughts to myself when it comes to these type of things.

overtaker
12-05-2008, 04:53 PM
I have no issues with selling your hho products wholesale. I do believe your 17 plate design will never have a high mmw number with 14v. between 4 gaps equaling approx. 3.5 volts. I believe your customers would have less heat issues with a 16 plate ( 4 power plates ) design or a 19 plate ( 4 power plates ) design. You could show some other boosters made using your plates and advertise their efficiency numbers. Just my 2 cents. I wish you luck with your business. :)

DaneDHorstead
12-05-2008, 06:00 PM
Overtaker / H2OPWR;

I don't want to argue, with anyone, but I also did not take this on, to come accross as a crook, either!

I resented the implication, but don't want to make further issue of it, other than to explain the quality of the products.

The plates themselves, are quality, for the price!

First of all, I (myself), do not 4 gap, however I designed the assembly, to be used in many configurations, according to the users wishes. Personally, I use configurations, of both 5 neutrals (6 gap), and the seven gap style (dropping two pole plates), and I use NaOH, as electrolyte.

However, the end user, can choose any combination, of configurations (learning, as he goes).

The plates are not 316L, but they also do not carry the 316L price tag! They are 304L grade, with matching grade ss hardware.

All too often, (even supposedly educated people), use mismatched plates, and hardware, and the whole thing goes wrong, as the softer metal will be eaten up, quickly, if they are unequally yoked!

Except in relatively rare situations, you can not find 316 grade stainless, at lowes, or HD, let alone, in the low carbon "L" grades. But people don't think it through, and buy it anyway!

In certain areas, like Alaska, 316L bolts, are the norm, as it is necessary to hold up in brittle cold. But try finding it, in Texas, or Alabama........

However, provided the electrodes are made of all common grade components, even the least grades of stainless, can last a relatively long time! But as soon as cross grades are introduced, the electrolyte always eats away at the softest materials, until it arks, (if above water).

But how many times have we seen people setting 316 plates, and linking them, with copper wires, and aluminum spade connectors?

I don't infur at any point, that a given individual will have great success (or disaster) with them, as I know he can fail (depending on his particular level of inteligence).

What the individual does with them, is completely up to him.

I supply top level machining of the plates, and I can only suggest, gaps, and various configurations.

If a man wants all pole plate types, to do a +-+-+-+-+ (series type) of install, I can accomodate him. Or if a man needs all neutral plates, in any given number, I also can accomodate him. But in each case I adjust prices accordingly!

I know for a fact, that I have supplied product in the past, to people, who take the seventeen plate designs, I sell... And ,they make electrodes, of five plates total (or even less), in order to make more money, on e-bay. I have no control, over what they do!

I also, do not insist on orders of 100 assemblies, but I do price small orders, at a higher price. I also sell other items such as individual nylon nuts/bolts/spacers, and o2 extenders.

I also explain, that when used as a dry cell, gaskets should be cut, to overlap diagonal bolt holes, and that all bolts in this case, are to be beyond the outside edges, of the plates, allowing the water/electrolyte solution, to flow through those holes, normally used for bolts, in the open bath type of generator.

By cutting gaskets with 2 square cut (diagonal corners), and two inside corners that cover the holes, alternating the cut corners every other gasket, forces the water solution, to opposite corners, to flow between plates.

Also, cutting finger tabs in the top sections of the pole plates allows, the heat sink.

I am an importer/exporter, and I know where to get things made, at the right price!

I can get Pulse modulaters, or MAP Sensor Enhancers, or virtually anything you want made, at the right price, provided qty is sufficent!

overtaker
12-05-2008, 06:39 PM
Dane, I like the flexibility. As you look at the huge supply of plates, are you tempted to make a monster-mac-daddy generator?

DaneDHorstead
12-05-2008, 07:54 PM
First off, I don't know what a Mac Daddy is, but a lack of knowlege, never stopped me before, so Why not?

I've got more damned plates, than I know what to do with, and can get plenty more!

I designed the plates, to be as flexible a system, as I could. It's original intent, was for it to be a learning tool, making the changing of configurations easy.

Then, Stu, and I got to talking about using them for the drycell, and adding the heat sink.

Further, we added an aluminum back shield to it, catching bottom draft, under the radiator, and directing the air over the heatsink, and into the radiator.

There's no limit to the congigurations that can be done, even to set drycell, next to drycell, all sandwhiched, to large front, and back blocks, covering all.

overtaker
12-05-2008, 10:43 PM
Mac-Daddy, you know the kind you would have to plug into a 220v. outlet. :D

John Sargent
12-06-2008, 09:17 AM
Dane, I sent you a private message @pwms. I am interested, could you send me more info? Thanks, John JBSargent at gmail dot com

DaneDHorstead
12-06-2008, 04:26 PM
Mac-Daddy, you know the kind you would have to plug into a 220v. outlet. :D
And this helps your 12 to 14 volt system how?

If my car had a 440 volt ciggerette lighter, I'd consider it. But even if it had a 240 volt system, you would be pushing the available power to the edge, and would most likely melt the car, all the way down to the puddled tires!

Of course, if I had a 440 volt ciggerette lighter, I wouldn't need to smoke!

There would be nothing left of it, after lighting it!

Randohr
12-09-2008, 12:33 PM
Their math is based on a standard multiplication factor of ten, where you don't even seem to grasp the concept that a single plate has two sides!

And edges, why not count them too?

Only ONE side if a cell plate produces gas.

And only 1 plate in a cell of 2 plates produces Hydrogen.

AFAIK No other person in Hydroxy cell discussion ever counts both sides of a single plate or counts the area of both cell plates.

Wanna buy 20 sq yards of carpet; I count both sides?

BoyntonStu

I count both sides of a plate as usable surface area if there is adjacent plates in the configuration. I have a cell in service that has three plates, 1.5"X10", -+- in a 2" pvc "T" style cell case. I have personally observed oxygen bubbles forming and dispersing from both sides of the middle positive plate. Therefore I must count both sides as usable surface area, I have no choice. Surface area = 15 x (4) = 60 sq In
But I wouldn't charge double for one plate just because it may have adjacent plates.;)

crb
12-09-2008, 06:11 PM
DaneDHorstead, Sent you an e-mail about ss plate.
Do you have any assemblies that will fit into 3" abs pipe?
Say 2"x8" or so.
Thanks, crb

DaneDHorstead
12-10-2008, 11:08 AM
DaneDHorstead, Sent you an e-mail about ss plate.
Do you have any assemblies that will fit into 3" abs pipe?
Say 2"x8" or so.
Thanks, crb
CRB


Somehow, I did not get that e-mail, but your answer is....

My plates are metric, thus they differ slightly, from imperial measurements, but comparing the metric to our own, they are an approximate 2 13/16" wide, and 4 7/16" high for the neutral plates ( 5 15/16" high for pole plates).

Stacking seven plates maximum, would put corners right at the inside edge, if a 3" ID cylinder, is used.

But, that would give you a 6 gap, with five neutrals, and a 2.33 volt drop, per gap (given 14 volts in).

The plates were designed, for the larger 4 inch set-up, or to be used, with square/rectangular cut acrylic, if used for open bath designs.

We also use them in drycell types, but have to modify the pole plates, in one, of two ways....

If using gaskets, the higher pole plates tops are outside the gasket, and can be finger cut, to also serve as a heatsink.

Or, the tops of the pole plates, can be cut to fit inside neoprene (or similar) front, and back halves, with sealant around the sides.

Painless, and myself are also discussing, and experimenting a third option of use, for the plates, which we hope to release in the relatively near future.

Painless will be discussing the results of those experiments, and he is a very trusted member of the forum.

Note also, that I supplied plates to Boyton Stu, for some of his ameoba experiments.

And Stu also, is a well respected member!

Stu has already released results of many of his experiments, as well as video.

DaneDHorstead
12-10-2008, 11:25 AM
One further thing I should have mentioned.....

These plates are virtually impossible to cut with a hacksaw, so hand shears can be used (but they distort the metal, from perfectly flat). If using hand shears, plan your cuts, so that any distorted metal turns away from other plates. You can also cut the pole plates slightly longer than the neutrals, so any distorted metal, bends above neutral plates.

I use a diamond blade water saw (floor tile saw), to cut the metal, and even then, I have to dress the cuts, using a grinding wheel, or disc grinder. However, I can get straight cuts, and have very good control, of the cutting process.

As long as water is used on the blade, the tile saw will even cut porcelin tile, which is harder, than steel.


If interested, most Home Depot/Lowes, will rent tile saws, or you can purchase one, for about $100.00.

karl.uk
01-05-2009, 04:16 PM
hi really new to this game , i have spent the last week or so reading what you guys are up to , and finding it really interesting , just wondered if you would tell me what temp ,and amp draw you would expect this type of unit to run at in a bath sit uation

H2OPWR
01-05-2009, 04:46 PM
hi really new to this game , i have spent the last week or so reading what you guys are up to , and finding it really interesting , just wondered if you would tell me what temp ,and amp draw you would expect this type of unit to run at in a bath sit uation

The seller could probably tell you more but your temps and amp draw are directly related to your electrolite concentration. There is no one answer to your question. But I might as well be the first to tell you to make gaskets and if you use these plates turn them into a dry cell. They are way more effecient and run cooler than bath type. Look over the thread "Painless Experiment in HHO" in general discussions He is experimenting with these exact plates. Good Luck with your project. It is great fun and challenging. If you become a bigger part of the Forum reading the posts and asking questions there is a wealth of information here that couls save you alot of money.

Welcome to the Forum
Larry

karl.uk
01-06-2009, 04:33 PM
thanks for the welcome LARRY i take on board what you are saying but i am not in a position at presant , have been playing with my first wet cell . I no this is probably childs play to you ,i set my unit up ina water treatment canister which hold just under 1ltr im just about to wrap the plates which i have read on this site, but would like to ask do you think this sort of volume is large enough

karl.uk
01-06-2009, 05:29 PM
thanks for the welcome LARRY i take on board what you are saying but i am not in a position at presant , have been playing with my first wet cell . I no this is probably childs play to you ,i set my unit up ina water treatment canister which hold just under 1ltr im just about to wrap the plates which i have read on this site, but would like to ask do you think this sort of volume is large enough

Consaka
02-06-2009, 02:21 PM
My God!

Man, you can't even read, how could anyone expect you to do any math!


Are you for real?

Now that I understand your dissability, I'll explain to you again, this time real slow, and I'll help you with the math too!


Dane Dane,, You are soo wasting your breath. He will never understand. He doesn't WANT to understand. I understood from your very first post and I will say that by description they look like they would produce very fine hho cells. I have worked with neutral plates before and was pleasantly surprised how well they worked. Unfortunately I am not a MAN as you describe it, but rather a poor boy trying to get his own website going www.black-ridge.com (http://www.black-ridge.com). I would like to try and sell these units on there at some time or other but I need a good source with the right price that could drop ship for me. So far I haven't found anything that would let me start small enough, short of making my own kits that is. I want the Map and O2 enhancers to sell at the same time though because I think the three go together.

Consaka
02-06-2009, 02:25 PM
I saw the pix,

It looks to me that when he was sanding or assembling, some of the neutrals got just enough out of shape that they are nearly touching...even close to the electrodes...

Maybe its not so important that they be that close when not in water and vibrating (such as a car does when the engine is running) but I would think that the plates would be much safer if the gaps were consistant, I mean after all, if you are going to have close tolerances thats good, but too close can be a risky hazard.

Perhaps larger radius washers, a thicker gauge material, or even more precautions and care in assembly would better the design.

Im not trying to down your products, im just making suggestions based on my observations.

I would like to say that Dane and co2 cutter should stop stomping on eachother. No one gets a good reputation by being argumentive. If you both have items for sale thats good, but please remember that your potential customers will likely read all of your threads....

While I can see your point on the spacing. My experiance has been that for neutral plates it isnt that critical. Even if they did touch they really wont cause a dangerous short or anything.

H2OPWR
02-06-2009, 03:04 PM
thanks for the welcome LARRY i take on board what you are saying but i am not in a position at presant , have been playing with my first wet cell . I no this is probably childs play to you ,i set my unit up ina water treatment canister which hold just under 1ltr im just about to wrap the plates which i have read on this site, but would like to ask do you think this sort of volume is large enough

Karl, Sorry for the late reply. I did not notice the post as it is in the For Sale section. To answer your question, If you are going to make enough gas to have a chance of helping only 1 litre of water will over heat rapidly. I might as well be the first to give you this advice. No matter how well you wrap the cell you will have issues with an open bath design. You will end up with the cell wrap failing and steam issues along with many other issues. I do not want to tell you how to build a cell. Most of the fun is in the challenge and learning. If you do end up with an open bath design a larger container would be better. Best would be to cut some gaskets and end plates to make a dry cell then use your container as a resevoir. Also you will get much better response to questions if you post them in the General Discussion Area.

Larry