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Fishhook
06-12-2008, 01:06 PM
What is the advantage/difference in +-+-+-+- configuration versus
+nnn-nnn+.
Also, for anyone on this site that is interested, we all need to calculate our results in HHO Liters per minute, and the amperage at 12 volts required, or
HHO liters per amp/minute.
This way, we will be able to find an optimum electrode configuration,
an optimum electrolyte,(Naco2,KOH, NaOH, SO4whatever).

Lastly, what is the optimum HHo needed per cc of engine dispacement.

I need lots of response on this, and then I will share my cooling design details with you all. No pumps or fans or radiators!

tbhavsar
06-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Hi,

Nice to know about this thread; it will be interesting to know what people are trying and test result.

BTW; I show some video on you tube by ZeroFossilFuel and he is talking about adding neutral plates to reduce heat. What is 'n' means here; I am not sure how to read this configuration; is ‘n’ means individual plate? Please enlighten me, I am new to HHO.

Thanks
Tushar

Fishhook
06-12-2008, 03:47 PM
Well, the n means neutral plate. I am drawing a diagram of my cell model, which I will have someone scan for me. Then you should be able to link and see it. I am encouraging everyone to calculate their liters per amp minute, so that we can all use this forum to figure out how to get the most out of our time and money, which is the same as making prudent use of our heartbeats.
I am also concerned about rate of heat rise in these things, so hopefully everyone will be measuring that as well.

bagrman
06-12-2008, 09:07 PM
When you add a N plate between you + and - you cut the power oing to each by half . All that is need to split water is about 2-2.3 volts so a car regulator will put out 12.5-14 volts, and on avg. you will be getting the 2-2.3 when you have 5 neutrals between your + and -. This will cut down on your heat. you can even do a +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+ if you have room .

tbhavsar
06-12-2008, 09:35 PM
Thanks;

Also check FAQ section at 'http://zerofossilfuel.googlepages.com/index.html'; He is talking about plate configuration in detail.

Ronjinsan
06-13-2008, 04:16 AM
All that Bagrman said is correct, except that after doing all those tests myself I found that the optimum neutral was 3 or 4 after that there was little effect. The more neutrals i added the more I had to increase electolyte and the production didnt increase enough to be of any use! ;)

tbhavsar
06-13-2008, 09:33 PM
Hi Ronjinsan,

What is your plate configuration?

Thanks
Tushar

xjguy
06-14-2008, 05:31 PM
All that Bagrman said is correct, except that after doing all those tests myself I found that the optimum neutral was 3 or 4 after that there was little effect. The more neutrals i added the more I had to increase electolyte and the production didnt increase enough to be of any use! ;)

this is an awesome thread.
ronjinsan when you say that you have to increase electrolyte and increase nuetral plates your setup runs cooler? so hypotetically i can take my 12 plate setup and add neutrals as well as electrolyte and my output stays the same with less heat....i know im just restating what you said kinda but i was just wanting to confirm that i understood it as you meant it

Deanr3D
06-18-2008, 06:18 AM
Disclaimer: I just got into this stuff and have only done minimal testing.

With that said, I don't understand why we use more +positive (anodes) than -negative (cathodes). For example a popular setup might be +nnn-nnn+. Wouldn't -nnn+nnn- be more effective? My reasoning is based on observation and (most likely) flawed science.

So, water has twice as many H's as O's(H2O, duh). I rigged up a simple setup using SS threaded rod and a computer power supply(12v). I noticed increased bubble buildup on the cathode, or negative, side. Wouldn't it make sense that the Hydrogen is splitting to the cathode at twice the rate of Oxygen splitting to the Anode because there's simply more of it present in water? Finally, increasing the number of Cathodes vs. Anodes(2:1 or 3:2) seems like a great way to boost hydrogen production because you get more cathode surface area, which is where the HH comes from.
My logic is all flawed, probably. Teach me Mentors!

Dean88
06-18-2008, 10:25 AM
I am very new to this as well, but the negative plates are producing as much as the positive plates (in the 2-1 ration) because only one side of the positive plates are producing, while both sides of the negate plate are producing in the popular +nnn-nnn+ set up.

So by switchin the position of the negatives/positives you would make the negative plates only work on one side and the positive work on both sides

Stratous
06-18-2008, 12:49 PM
I am very new to this as well, but the negative plates are producing as much as the hydrogen plates because only one side of the positive plates are producing, while both sides of the negate plate are producing in the popular +nnn-nnn+ set up.

So by switchin the position of the negatives/positives you would make the negative plates only work on one side and the positive work on both sides

The plates with the negative charge produce the hydrogen.

Dean88
06-18-2008, 08:05 PM
The plates with the negative charge produce the hydrogen.

Oops sorry about that one, guess lack of sleep can get us all.

gasmakr
06-23-2008, 01:37 PM
Thanks;

Also check FAQ section at 'http://zerofossilfuel.googlepages.com/index.html'; He is talking about plate configuration in detail.


I have been following him for a wile...his ZOOFER cell makes some serious production!:eek:

gasmakr
06-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Disclaimer: I just got into this stuff and have only done minimal testing.

With that said, I don't understand why we use more +positive (anodes) than -negative (cathodes). For example a popular setup might be +nnn-nnn+. Wouldn't -nnn+nnn- be more effective? My reasoning is based on observation and (most likely) flawed science.

So, water has twice as many H's as O's(H2O, duh). I rigged up a simple setup using SS threaded rod and a computer power supply(12v). I noticed increased bubble buildup on the cathode, or negative, side. Wouldn't it make sense that the Hydrogen is splitting to the cathode at twice the rate of Oxygen splitting to the Anode because there's simply more of it present in water? Finally, increasing the number of Cathodes vs. Anodes(2:1 or 3:2) seems like a great way to boost hydrogen production because you get more cathode surface area, which is where the HH comes from.
My logic is all flawed, probably. Teach me Mentors!


You are 100% right there should always be more cathodes than anodes for that exact reason.good job for picking up on that. GOLD STAR for you....my setup is
-nn+nn-nn+nn- and it just so happens that my lucky nunber is 13 so a 13 plate setup works out just right.:D

Kwiksilvr
06-29-2008, 01:09 AM
I'm new here... but I have been playing with thsi HHO for about 3 months without really understanding it...

i have been learning quite a bit over the past few months...

I just bought me some stainless steel 304 plates froma metal shop here in town... I got 2.5" X 6" plates...

I am running 13 plates in a -NN+NN-NN+NN-

I built a bubler out of pvc pipe 4" and did a simple setup. I have not tried it yet..

What I want to know is... the HHO gas is made released from the (-) negative plates right? and the oxygen is released from the (+) positieve plates?

i also understand the neutral plates help prevent heat and drops voltage?

is it better to run the configuration I am using now, or is it better to run more positives than negaitves? or is it better to do a +-+-+-+-+ or a -+-+-+-??

i understand heat is what you want to get rid of, so what would be best? I already have the plates, and they are solid, but I sanded them with a sander, then I i sanded them in 2 directions.. this should aid in releasing the gas...

my first attempt wa to run little stainless steel bowls as the positive in the center of a Stainless steel jar as the negative... what i found was that it got WAY to hot and the water dissapeared over an 80 mile trip really fast. i am assuming that is becasue it was drawing too much current... I did get 55MPG on a 4cyl kia with it though... I was extremly pleased with that, I normally get 31MPG on it... so imagine my surprise when I did the calculations and got 55MPG.. AMAZAING..

then i went back to the drawing board becasue the first one i did was a POS and it fell apart to quickly... so now i am building a more robust one. but since my first setup did not have plates, I need a little help...

I have a o2 extender and a map sensor enhancer

thanks for all the info...

Stratous
06-29-2008, 01:24 AM
I'm new here... but I have been playing with thsi HHO for about 3 months without really understanding it...

i have been learning quite a bit over the past few months...

I just bought me some stainless steel 304 plates froma metal shop here in town... I got 2.5" X 6" plates...

I am running 13 plates in a -NN+NN-NN+NN-

I built a bubler out of pvc pipe 4" and did a simple setup. I have not tried it yet..

What I want to know is... the HHO gas is made released from the (-) negative plates right? and the oxygen is released from the (+) positieve plates?

i also understand the neutral plates help prevent heat and drops voltage?

is it better to run the configuration I am using now, or is it better to run more positives than negaitves? or is it better to do a +-+-+-+-+ or a -+-+-+-??

i understand heat is what you want to get rid of, so what would be best? I already have the plates, and they are solid, but I sanded them with a sander, then I i sanded them in 2 directions.. this should aid in releasing the gas...

my first attempt wa to run little stainless steel bowls as the positive in the center of a Stainless steel jar as the negative... what i found was that it got WAY to hot and the water dissapeared over an 80 mile trip really fast. i am assuming that is becasue it was drawing too much current... I did get 55MPG on a 4cyl kia with it though... I was extremly pleased with that, I normally get 31MPG on it... so imagine my surprise when I did the calculations and got 55MPG.. AMAZAING..

then i went back to the drawing board becasue the first one i did was a POS and it fell apart to quickly... so now i am building a more robust one. but since my first setup did not have plates, I need a little help...

I have a o2 extender and a map sensor enhancer

thanks for all the info...

THe "n" plates drop voltage across the cell. A +nnn-nnn+ would have a 4.5 volt drop between the + and - plates. They also take the polarity of the closest charged plate. n plates work well when you have limited space, but its better to run multiple cell is series. If you ran 5 cells configured as +-+ in a series circuit, the voltage accross each one would be about 2.8v on a 14 volt system. I dont recomend running all cells in the same container, but you can. I am currently running 4 in a 8"x8"x6" container. Congratulations on you MPG, that is a great increase.

tbhavsar
06-30-2008, 03:09 PM
FYI - Technically, electrolysis only need 1.24v, then rest is waste and converted in to heat. so you can have multiple cell in series in separate container to improve production.

troymacdonald
06-30-2008, 10:57 PM
So I made a 6 plate configuration this past weekend: - + - - + -. I didn't use any neutral plates and used nylon bolts and washer to space the plates. It created a fair output and got a little warm, but not scalding.

Then this evening I added 3 more plates, which put the config at:
- + - -+ - -+-. This got so freakin' hot that it melted the plastic around the hold my negative terminal passed through in the top of the rubbermade container and melted the wire that connected to the plates.

I don't have an ammeter so I have no idea how many amps it was drawing, but I know those are not the results desired. I will say that prior to the "meltdown" it was kicking out the HHO.

so my next few questions are these:
1. Should I keep the 9 charged plates and add a few additional neutral plates?
- OR-
should I revert to the 6 charged plates and use the additional three as neutral.
2. These neutral plates, are they just additional stainless steel plates that are not wired to either a POS or NEG lead?
:confused:

rzone
07-02-2008, 09:51 AM
Before you change the configuration, try it with less electrolyte in the water.

ELECTR0N3RD
07-04-2008, 02:55 AM
I like the +NNN-NNN+ set up only because it seems most logical, but for some reason i can not get my neutral plates to generate anything, then again my connections are not the greatest, i need some SS nuts to connect them right now theyre just floating. any suggestions?

rmptr
07-04-2008, 11:10 AM
TrueValue hardware store chain?

or Ace hardware chain stores?

probably 12 -14 cents each for small SS nuts.

Best

OK... I just returned from local True Value hardware store...

A company named Hillman stocks the TV nut& bolt selection. The guys were there... SS is grade 304.

10-32 x 2" =16c
10-32 nut = 16c
#10 flat w = 16c
large flat w= 30c
Nylon wash= 5c
Nylon nuts = 20c
1/4-20x2 nylon bolt=30c

Roebic brand Drain Opener. Sodium Hydroxide, Lye, is $5 for one quart liquid.

Forgot to check SS blank outlet cover plates, but they are $1.59 @ Home Depot.

Adjustable barbed irrigation bubblers go from 80c to $2.30 each.

Still no source for a single one quart wide mouth Ball Mason canning jar. A case of 12 is $10...

Best

h-power
07-04-2008, 01:45 PM
I'm using a +nnnnnn--nnnnnn+ arrangement. At 1 tsp of KOH per gallon this unit draws about 5 amps cold and 12 warmed up to operating temp 130. I have it running on full manifold vacuum.

It's pushing out 700ml/min but I haven't installed an o2 enhancer yet. On my friends 6.5 diesel his mileage increased nearly 50%.

electron3rd, I bench test my cells for continuity and resistance. I suspect if you check you'll find an open somewhere in your neutrals or high resistance at one of your connections.

troymacdonald
07-04-2008, 11:30 PM
I have changed my configuration to this:
-nn+nn-nn+

this generates a fair output. I ran the generator output through a bubbler and got a steady flow so I tried to light the outlet of the bubbler just to see if I got anything. Well, it popped and shot a small amount of water back into the hose coming from the generator.

The main reason I don't add another 3 plates is due to the length of my nylon bolts. I might have to get creative in my bolt arrangement as I am certain that the 13 plate set up will give me the output I'm looking for.

Also, I'm using SS wall plates which I find work really well. The problem I'm running into is that as I cut notches out for the SS bolt connections and drill holes, the start to get a little warped around the curved edges. To fix this I'm thinking about taking all of my plates and pounding the edges flat so they will be easier to work with.

http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/girliemac420/?action=view&current=PICT0434.jpg

h-power
07-05-2008, 07:50 AM
I had exactly that problem. Drilling the holes and buying different wall plates that have slightly different shapes then sanding these curved surfaces compounded the problem. So I went to a sheet metal fabricator and had them make me plates that were flat, drilled exactly to size and sanded. Each plate cost me less than HD or Lowes. Now assembly is quicker and more accurate.

Had a look at the electrical junction box at Lowes. Its made of PVC which will melt at 150 degrees. Found another made of glass reinforced polypropylene that melts at 360 degrees and has a watertight seal. Its triple the price but much more applicable.

troymacdonald
07-05-2008, 09:54 PM
I am looking into some local sheet metal fabricators as well. My budget is on the tight side so I'm making do with the wall plates for now. Today I got the install done on my truck but my plates decided to crap out on me.

Here is what I did:
First off I pounded them flat with small sledge. I have been using silicon sealant on my box and it has gunged up my two SS bolts pretty bad. These two bolts are my electrical connection to the plates. Since the local Lowes and Home Depot seem to be extremely lacking on SS hardware - especially bolts - I've been reduced to nylon bolts and SS washers. I think that what has happened is the build up on sealant on the bolts has made it more difficult for the current to pass from the bolts to the washers and then to the plates. SO tonight I'm cleaning the plates and bolts in water/vinegar mix and will look into a better arrangement tomorrow.

Its over a 100 outside and I'v been at this all freakin afternoon...I'm beat.

As far as the electrical box I'm using - know it has a lower melting point than what I would like. but I'm mounting it in front of my radiator in the space between the radiator and the front grill - '03 F150 - and it seems to be a really cool place to mount. When I'm able to I would like to get a contain of the sort you are talking about.

rmptr
07-06-2008, 12:31 AM
Troy, I have a 00 F-150 with 4.2 V6 and 5spd.

What engine/trans do you have?

Pretty sure your ECM will be samo-samo as mine, so I'll watch your performance.

Did you do any EFIE stuff yet?

I wish I could spring for a scangageII... Got no budget for it now.
One good job would get me a cash surplus to do it!

Best

h-power
07-06-2008, 05:39 PM
If I'm not mistaken the scangageII is only a monitoring device. Does it have the ability to allow you to alter ECU input signals like an EFIE??

Omega
07-06-2008, 09:20 PM
If I'm not mistaken the scangageII is only a monitoring device. Does it have the ability to allow you to alter ECU input signals like an EFIE??

The ScangaugeII allows you to read trouble codes, turn off the Check Engine Light and on certain makes of cars read many different engine/performance parameters. The most useful function for HHO fans is the MPG feature that allows you to see, in real time, what your fuel usage is. See the website for all the info.

Heres the website: http://www.scangauge.com/

troymacdonald
07-07-2008, 09:38 AM
rmptr;
I just put my generator in my truck. Here is what I did and how I did it:
- I located the generator in front of the radiator but behind the grill. To do this I had to use my Dremmel and cut some of the fiberglass frame - not too much and nothing visibly deforming.
- Ran a on/off power switch into the cab directly off the battery and put a 30A fuse inline to the load.
- In my generator I'm using a -nn+nn-nn+nn- configuration that puts a steady stream through my bubbler.
- For right now I'm running the HHO line straight into my air intake as close to the to throttle plate as possible and behind the MAF sensor.

So far the most I've run the truck on HHO is backing it out of the garage yesterday. I plan on a short trip around town today to see if there is any change in fuel economy.

h-power
07-07-2008, 05:53 PM
I thought that was the case but just wanted to verify. I already have an $8,000 computer that has all that info and more on it. What I am looking for is a good set of plans to build an under dash EFIE for the O2 sensor enhancer.

Phantom240
07-07-2008, 06:34 PM
TrueValue hardware store chain?

or Ace hardware chain stores?

probably 12 -14 cents each for small SS nuts.

Best

OK... I just returned from local True Value hardware store...

A company named Hillman stocks the TV nut& bolt selection. The guys were there... SS is grade 304.

10-32 x 2" =16c
10-32 nut = 16c
#10 flat w = 16c
large flat w= 30c
Nylon wash= 5c
Nylon nuts = 20c
1/4-20x2 nylon bolt=30c

Roebic brand Drain Opener. Sodium Hydroxide, Lye, is $5 for one quart liquid.

Forgot to check SS blank outlet cover plates, but they are $1.59 @ Home Depot.

Adjustable barbed irrigation bubblers go from 80c to $2.30 each.

Still no source for a single one quart wide mouth Ball Mason canning jar. A case of 12 is $10...

Best
Hobby Lobby has them for like $1.50. The jars, that is.

goingreen
07-07-2008, 09:04 PM
I thought that was the case but just wanted to verify. I already have an $8,000 computer that has all that info and more on it. What I am looking for is a good set of plans to build an under dash EFIE for the O2 sensor enhancer.

Try this link for EFIE plans:
http://www.alt-nrg.org/efie.html

This is by Zero Fossil Fuels.

I was going to build my own but for around $55 you can buy one already made....I Figured it would take be 8+ hours to get the components, build it, etc so, decided to buy a ready made unit....
This is the one I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130235417192&rd=1
Hope this helps!

Bwanar
07-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Here is the best and cheapest one I've found. He even shows you how to make them yourself in a Youtube video if you'd like to go that route.

http://www.pwmpower.com/efie.html

lou
07-08-2008, 08:53 AM
Well, the n means neutral plate. I am drawing a diagram of my cell model, which I will have someone scan for me. Then you should be able to link and see it. I am encouraging everyone to calculate their liters per amp minute, so that we can all use this forum to figure out how to get the most out of our time and money, which is the same as making prudent use of our heartbeats.
I am also concerned about rate of heat rise in these things, so hopefully everyone will be measuring that as well.

in the words of my youngest daughter "this place is da bomb" :D
There is so much info and you guys are so gracious.

And I'm catching on...but what is a liter? I was going along grasping the HHO thing but "liter" came along and.......I'll goggle it.