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Sparkie
06-13-2008, 04:00 AM
Right, now that I have your attention.

Lets say we have this configuration.

+nnn-nnn+ Stainless steel 316 grade. Same electrolyte for this scenario, be it sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide or baking soda.

Now we are successfully pumping 15A@13.8V through the plates and they are spaced 1mm apart.
Now my question is this.
Would making the plates a foot square versus 6 inches square make a difference to the amount of hydrogen being created?
I say no because it is the amount of current being passed which creates the hydrogen....but I could be wrong.
Also what about the thickness of the metal? would it make a difference.
Someone said after a few experiments .9mm 316 stainless was the best producer for him.

I put it to the you...the avid hydrogen creators of this forum...what do you think?

Ronjinsan
06-13-2008, 04:11 AM
I think...you answered your own questions admirably! :D;)

Stratous
06-13-2008, 09:16 AM
I think more surface area would help some because one of the major limiting factors on production is that the bubbles stick to the plates which causes the plates to loose surface area for production. It is documented on the web that part of the efficiency lost is due to bubbles not releasing from the plates. check out this patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7014740.html. Its my opinion that making the plates larger will yield better production.

Sparkie
06-16-2008, 02:56 AM
:mad:

I have finally set up a decent ammeter although its range is only 20A.
Turns out I am producing about half a liter of HHO per minute at 20A.
Not good enough by any means.Imagine the current draw at 1LPM of HHO.
I am running +NNN-NNN+ a nine plate arrangement and the plates are 143mm deep by 66mm wide and 1mm apart. needles to say I am a bit disappointed.
I must admit I have not insulated the 1/4" stainless steel supply rods yet or used a decent electrolyte. Damn baking soda is getting to hot for my liking.
Can't wait for my Potassium hydroxide to turn up.
I might try a smack booster arrangement next. Except I will use my 316 Stainless without the bent edges as I cannot purchase those wall plates here in Aussie land.
Maybe I need to paint the edges with something to prevent current leakage as well.
I need to stay under my 30A self imposed limit for this.
I guess this is what it is all about...trial and error.
has anyone looked at those Alexis cells yet. 2.2LPM at 18A sounds too good to be true.

Hydroginist
06-16-2008, 11:13 AM
I'm not big on the neutral plate thing.

One thing I do know is that the more N's the more HHO

Hydrogen is made on the negative side so you need to have -nn+nn-

every n drops your cell volts and amps down by about 1.5 to 2 volt and proportional current each. Spacing also effects this.

Good luck.

gasmakr
06-18-2008, 12:53 PM
I think...you answered your own questions admirably! :D;)

Ron your 2 funny......:p

gasmakr
06-18-2008, 12:54 PM
I'm not big on the neutral plate thing.

One thing I do know is that the more N's the more HHO

Hydrogen is made on the negative side so you need to have -nn+nn-

every n drops your cell volts and amps down by about 1.5 to 2 volt and proportional current each. Spacing also effects this.

Good luck.

Hydro is right hydrogen is made on the neg. plate and the oxy is made on the pos. from my exp. the more neg the better:D

airdude
06-30-2008, 03:34 PM
I'm not big on the neutral plate thing.

One thing I do know is that the more N's the more HHO

Hydrogen is made on the negative side so you need to have -nn+nn-

every n drops your cell volts and amps down by about 1.5 to 2 volt and proportional current each. Spacing also effects this.

Good luck.

Now don't take this wrong. You say you aren't big on the Neutral plate thing and the next sentence you say that the more N's = more HHO. 'N' and 'n' being the same thing, you lost me.

HHOWolfen
07-10-2008, 01:56 AM
neither H or O are 'made', 2 H and 1 O are bound in one mole, you collect the products of cracking the mole into it's constituent parts, 2 H and 1 O, which are attracted to their appropriate poles, and the released into the medium. if your plates are too close together, the bubbles get bound between the poles, sticking like a balloon between two boards.

Johnh
07-10-2008, 09:18 AM
Got to agree with the last post, The gasses are released in the 2:1 ratio when the water molecules are broken, seeing we need a balanced ratio of water molecules on each plate then it make sense to have the same area on each side.

As far as plate size is concerned Amp loading is definitely proven to be a limiting factor in hydrogen generation.

From "The chemistry and Manufature of hydrogen" P Litherland Teed 1919 the usual amp loading in commercial electrolysers of the day with iron plates was between 15 and 30 Amps per sq ft. With modern electrolysers with stainless or nickel plates this has been increased, its hard to pin a figure down because its commercially sensitive but it seems a practical limit is about .1amp/Sq cm or 93 amps per sq ft. Much higher current densitys are being touted for nano particle electrodes Quantum Sphere are quoting 1.2 Amps / sq cm for their nano nickel elctrodes so 1100Amps / sq ft.
quantum electrodes (PDF) (http://www.qsinano.com/white_papers/QSI_DSE_Hydrogen_PPT_March_07.pdf)

The .1Amp /Sq cm seems to be about right for what I have made But to get up there without excess heat everything has to be right. From my experience 1mm plate spacing is too close with the amount of gas generated at high amp loading, but there may be ways around this.

Regards
John

dennis13030
07-10-2008, 10:57 AM
Got to agree with the last post, The gasses are released in the 2:1 ratio when the water molecules are broken, seeing we need a balanced ratio of water molecules on each plate then it make sense to have the same area on each side.

As far as plate size is concerned Amp loading is definitely proven to be a limiting factor in hydrogen generation.

From "The chemistry and Manufature of hydrogen" P Litherland Teed 1919 the usual amp loading in commercial electrolysers of the day with iron plates was between 15 and 30 Amps per sq ft. With modern electrolysers with stainless or nickel plates this has been increased, its hard to pin a figure down because its commercially sensitive but it seems a practical limit is about .1amp/Sq cm or 93 amps per sq ft. Much higher current densitys are being touted for nano particle electrodes Quantum Sphere are quoting 1.2 Amps / sq cm for their nano nickel elctrodes so 1100Amps / sq ft.
quantum electrodes (PDF) (http://www.qsinano.com/white_papers/QSI_DSE_Hydrogen_PPT_March_07.pdf)

The .1Amp /Sq cm seems to be about right for what I have made But to get up there without excess heat everything has to be right. From my experience 1mm plate spacing is too close with the amount of gas generated at high amp loading, but there may be ways around this.

Regards
John

Thanks John for sharing that PDF. The info on the efficiency vs. Cell voltage was VERY interesting to me. It looks like ideal voltage is between 1.3V and 2.0V per cell.

timetowinarace
07-10-2008, 10:58 AM
:mad:

I have finally set up a decent ammeter although its range is only 20A.
Turns out I am producing about half a liter of HHO per minute at 20A.
Not good enough by any means.Imagine the current draw at 1LPM of HHO.
I am running +NNN-NNN+ a nine plate arrangement and the plates are 143mm deep by 66mm wide and 1mm apart. needles to say I am a bit disappointed.
I must admit I have not insulated the 1/4" stainless steel supply rods yet or used a decent electrolyte. Damn baking soda is getting to hot for my liking.
Can't wait for my Potassium hydroxide to turn up.
I might try a smack booster arrangement next. Except I will use my 316 Stainless without the bent edges as I cannot purchase those wall plates here in Aussie land.
Maybe I need to paint the edges with something to prevent current leakage as well.
I need to stay under my 30A self imposed limit for this.
I guess this is what it is all about...trial and error.
has anyone looked at those Alexis cells yet. 2.2LPM at 18A sounds too good to be true.

I think 1mm gap is too close. 3mm or 1/8" has been found to be optimum.

Plate size does matter. 2-4 square inches of plate area on every face is recommended for each amp of current for optimal performance according to Patrick Kelly.

Dewayne
07-13-2008, 11:37 PM
Hydro is right hydrogen is made on the neg. plate and the oxy is made on the pos. from my exp. the more neg the better:D

If "H" is produced on the - plate and "O" on the + plate, I guessing an over sized - plate might be helpfully.

If we're extracting 2 atoms of "H" to 1 atom of "O" dosen't it make sense to have the - plate twice the area of the + plate.

Any ideas?

Johnh
07-14-2008, 08:48 AM
If "H" is produced on the - plate and "O" on the + plate, I guessing an over sized - plate might be helpfully.

If we're extracting 2 atoms of "H" to 1 atom of "O" dosen't it make sense to have the - plate twice the area of the + plate.

Any ideas?

There needs to be the same no of molecules of water being acted on on each plate.

When the Oxygen is released two hydrogen ions are also released.
When the hydrogen is released something happens to the oxygen but I'll have to have a look and see what.

Although twice the volume of hydrogen is produced 8 times the mass of oxygen is produced !

I really don't know the correct answer. sounds like some experiments are needed.

John

ridelong
07-16-2008, 06:26 PM
It seems like plate area helps.

Adding neutral plates definitely helps at automobile voltages. I use a +nnnn-nnnn+ setup and it works pretty good. At 4 to 5 amps with 1 qt jar, I went from baseline 22.4 mpg in my 2.3 liter ranger to 30.8 mpg.

Just put a 1/2 gal bottle in at 5 to 7 amps, have to wait to fill up to give data on it.

scottyhho
07-17-2008, 01:31 AM
I must say, up until now, i have understood most of what everyone has been talking about. You guys have now lost me. Y'all are smart and stuff......

ozboy
07-19-2008, 06:29 PM
hi guys

im from aussie check our e-bay www.ebay.com.au the following is for sale
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230261988458&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013 they are a twin unit whats your thoughts i have purchase a single on problem i have is i live in the snowy mountains and the water freezes and leaks out over night any ideas also could i ran anti freeze in bubbler

cheers conrad

HomeGrown
07-20-2008, 08:53 PM
Could someone please explain the concept of neutral plates? I simply don't understand the benefit of plates basically not being utilized. If you have a configuration of -nn+nn- then how are you getting any reaction between the - & + plates? Is any gas generated between the neutral plates? How is -nn+nn- better than simply -+- ?
If you have an investment of 7 plates, wouldn't you get more gas production out of a -+-+-+- configuration?

Sorry for all the n00b questions, but I'm really curious about this. :)

computerclinic
07-20-2008, 09:20 PM
Well the easiest way to explain the neutral plate thing is this.

By adding neutral plates to the mix, we are reducing the ammount of electric in the water, this reduces heat in the cell. Neutral plates will take on the polarity of the neigboring plates. I would guess that -nnn+nnn- would be the best producer in this example, but my experiments and many others as well have found that the +nnn-nnn+ config works out best. The down side is that we need to use a stronger electrolyte in order to produce the same ammount of gas.

Thats at least my understanding so far, and I am hoping that someone may correct me or add to this.

You also see alot of folks discussing PWM's or pulse with modulation. This will help control the ammount of electric in the water, too.

An alternative that I am experimenting with right now is increasing the ammount of water in the cell to over come the heat issue without needing the PWM or neutral plates. Although it may be a good idea to keep the neutral plates anyway because I think that it may put less stress on the alternator and battery in the car. Havent gotten that far with those experiments to see if there is any truth to the car parts stuff yet, but thats next.

Stratous
07-20-2008, 09:28 PM
The amount of oxygen produced is equal to the amount of hydrogen. During the reaction, part of the anode is oxydized releasing an oxygen atom. That is why the anode falls apart after time, because part of it is being destroyed. Ok, i will attempt to expain why +-+ is better than -+-. It easy actually once you undetstand that electrons flow from negative to positive. +-+ is actually two circuits where as -+- is only one.

HomeGrown
07-20-2008, 10:34 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate your time & patients to explain this!
But, it begs yet another question: I see far more discussion regarding plates as opposed to tube configurations. Are plate cells by and large better than tube cells? Both my cells I built are tube type, using 1.00 & .75" 316 stainless. My big cell has an array of 7 tubes @ 6" long, while my smaller cell (just finished it today) uses 3 tubes @ 5" long.

I also have several plates I could play with, which are 1.5" x 6", aprox. .05" thick. I haven't done anything with them yet.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/autocadder/CIMG5102.jpg

scottyhho
07-22-2008, 10:39 PM
i'm using tubes also. curious to know if anyone else out there is....

zenoptic
07-23-2008, 04:35 AM
I am working on a system that uses .041" safety wire ( 302/304 Stainless steel). Any one use this type of SS? Will it hold up?

daveczrn
07-23-2008, 10:50 AM
304 stainless steel is fine. alot of us use it. The down side to wire is that it does not have very much surface area. It is much better to use something with more surface area so that bubbles have room to form on it.

HomeGrown
07-23-2008, 12:17 PM
i'm using tubes also. curious to know if anyone else out there is....

What's your tube confiuration Scotty?

HYDROTEKPRO
07-23-2008, 01:55 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate your time & patients to explain this!
But, it begs yet another question: I see far more discussion regarding plates as opposed to tube configurations. Are plate cells by and large better than tube cells? Both my cells I built are tube type, using 1.00 & .75" 316 stainless. My big cell has an array of 7 tubes @ 6" long, while my smaller cell (just finished it today) uses 3 tubes @ 5" long.

I also have several plates I could play with, which are 1.5" x 6", aprox. .05" thick. I haven't done anything with them yet.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/autocadder/CIMG5102.jpg


That tube configuration is very nice!

Plates are easier, that's why they're more popular.

If you could decrease the distance between the center tube and the outside tube (x all of the columns of course), your gas production would be better. This means a smaller diameter outside tube, or a larger diameter inside tube.

However, your tube configuration is neat and clean, professional looking. Very nice!

computerclinic
07-23-2008, 05:38 PM
Awsome cell build!

scottyhho
07-23-2008, 06:04 PM
Im using six 4 inch long 1/2 inch tubes with SS bolts in the center. I positivly charge the bolts and negitavly charge the tubes. I also have a few random hole drilled in the tubes. It's a pretty simple design but it works well. I'm putting it in my car on saturday. I'm producing 1 ltr a minute. I'll put some pics up in a few days. I'm in the process of moving so it's been a pain.

scottyhho
07-23-2008, 06:06 PM
Oh, also, the bolts/tubes stand upright and are secured through a 4 inch round piece of white cutting board.

Boltazar
07-23-2008, 07:33 PM
HomeGrown Nice tube design, very professional looking, are you a machinist? I haven't built a generator yet but I'm thinking of using the tube design also, mostly because of the surface area. I too feel the spacing between tubes needs to be smaller around .045 and haven't been able to locate tubes that come close enough yet. How much production do you get out of the 7 tube generator and at what amps and temp. Last question, does the 7 tube design fit into a 4" PVC pipe.

daveczrn
07-23-2008, 09:03 PM
HomeGrown Nice tube design, very professional looking, are you a machinist? .

Looking at the picture i see a lathe on the right and a milling machine with a servo drive attached on the left....

Very nice.

HomeGrown
07-23-2008, 10:17 PM
Thanks for the kind comments guys! :)

Will try and remember all the questions......
I was a machinist for 15+ years, but now I work at Toyota doing quality verification (portable CMM measurements) on new bodyweld equipment. And yes Dave, that's definately a lathe & mill, although they're just cheap ones from Harbor Freight. My last project was doing a 2 axis CNC conversion on the mill. It's in a varying state of incompletion. :rolleyes:

The tubing is 316, I bought two 5' sticks of it for $135. It's .065 wall, so my effective gap is about 1.5mm or .060" Scotty, I seriously doubt you can find any "standard" ss tubing with any thicker wall. You *MAY* be able to find some workable combonation of inch & metric size tubing that will close the gap, but I'm not sure where you'd find the metric tubing at. Truthfully, I really don't think it needs to be any closer than what it already is.
BTW: good luck with your move! It's really difficult to keep up with a project like this in the middle of a move. :(

The bigger cell will fit inside a 4" PVC pipe. I've got a housing already made for it. Unfortunately I don't yet have an ammeter (although I see they have one on sale at Harbor Freight for $4.99, so I'm there!). I also haven't configured a LPM gauge yet either. I can tell you that it worked scarry good though! I ran it straight off my car battery with about a tsp. of baking soda, and it bubbled like crazy. It bubbled at least as much as some of the really high-output units I've seen on Youtube. BUT, it also drew big-time current, melting the nylon nuts I had on the electrodes. That's when I built the smaller cell, because I didn't know if I could tame-down the big unit enough. I bet it was pulling well over 30 amps.
Actually I do have an ammeter, but it only reads up to 20 amps. My smaller cell was pulling around 18 amps, but I was running it open-top, so I can't guestimate the LPM. I don't have the housing for it complete yet. It will fit into a 3" dia. PVC pipe.

Here's a pic of the small cell taken apart. I drilled & tapped 3 holes radially in the top & bottom of the inner tube, then put in 6-32 nylon screws and machined down the heads so the outer tube would fit over them. I also wanted a design that would pull apart easily for occasional cleaning.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/autocadder/CIMG5101.jpg

scottyhho
07-23-2008, 10:37 PM
The tubes are the same that a F-16 might use.... 1/2 round with a 5/16 SS bolt in the middle. I ran zip ties between the bolt and tube to avoid shorting out. It's pretty strong stuff.

Boltazar
07-23-2008, 11:03 PM
HomeGrown If you configured the tubes differently to use a few neutrals it may tone down the amp draw or use distiled water only.

I ordered my 316L tubes tonight I'll have a .060 space between tubes also. To incorporate neutral tubes we'll need another way to get the electricity to the tubes

scottyhho
07-23-2008, 11:12 PM
It's kind of ghetto but I put a radiator clamp around each tube and put wire under the clamp and then hooked them up to the -...

HomeGrown
07-24-2008, 07:31 AM
HomeGrown If you configured the tubes differently to use a few neutrals it may tone down the amp draw or use distiled water only.

I ordered my 316L tubes tonight I'll have a .060 space between tubes also. To incorporate neutral tubes we'll need another way to get the electricity to the tubes

I suppose I could try and use 1/2" tubing inside the 3/4" inner tube... I will give that some serious consideration. It's definately doable...

EDIT: I was just about to order the 1/2" tubing but then I started thinking..... The 1/2" tube will have only have a little more than half the surface area of the 1" tube.
Is that going to be an issue? :confused:

1/2" tube = 1.57" circumference
1" tube (.87 i.d.) = 2.73 circumference

EDIT 2: Maybe I should try a 1/2" bolt for the center electrode, since it would have more effective surface area....

Boltazar
07-24-2008, 08:27 AM
How about 1 1/4 pipe on the outside?

HomeGrown
07-24-2008, 09:54 AM
How about 1 1/4 pipe on the outside?

Logistics and cost keep me from using 1.25". My current setup lends itself to really easily put in a smaller .5" dia. electrode. Plus, the place where I get the seamless 316 tubing only goes up to 1.00" dia. I imagine the cost of 1.25 dia. 316 tubing would be :eek: :eek: :eek:

The price for a 6' stick of .5" dia. tubing is $38.

daveczrn
07-24-2008, 10:53 AM
Type Stainless Steel Seamless Tubing
Metal Stainless Steel
Shape Single Line
System of Measurement Inch
Outside Dia. 1-1/4" (1.25")
Inside Dia. 1.084"
Wall Thickness .083"



Type 304 Stainless Steel Material — -425º to +1,500º F Operating Temperature Range
36" 89895K179 $81.35
12" 89895K279 39.44
6' 89895K65 123.26
Type 316 Stainless Steel Material — -325º to +1,500º F Operating Temperature Range
36" 89785K179 $80.94
12" 89785K279 36.29
6' 89785K85 139.56

Hydroginist
07-24-2008, 01:57 PM
I worked inspecting tube heat exchangers for many years most of which are made from SS and other alloys.

www.tubesalesqld.com

This place is located in Houston and supplies most of the exchanger shops in the area. They have minimums but they also have tube sizes in Metric and standard. You could actually start at 3/16 and continue to 8" with just minimal gaps between sizes. I think they are also a sources for Copper/Nickel and other alloys that are much better conductors and very close to being as resistant to corrosion as SS but may be a bit pricey.

HomeGrown
07-24-2008, 04:55 PM
I ended up stopping in at a hydraulics supplier, and they had 1/2" tubing in-stock, which they normally don't carry. I snagged a 7' stick of it for $44.

Another reason I can't really go with 1.25" dia. is that I would have to remake the outer tube carrier and space everything out farther (they're spaced @ 1.25" now). Doing that, it would no longer fit inside a 4" PVC pipe, unles I clustered them together all touching. That may not be a bad idea anyway though.....
The additional surface area would be nice for a high-voltage, high-frequency setup though.

The way I have the spacers set up on my 3/4" tube, I drilled holes much the same as shown on my 3-cell setup, except I drilled them 1/4" and use pieces of zip tie cut 1" long and folded into a /\ shape through the hole. This means that I don't have to do a thing regarding spacers for the 1/2" tube, they're already in place. When I take it apart to put in the 1/2" tubes I'll get some pics.

Boltazar
07-24-2008, 07:05 PM
HomeGrown What type of plastic do you use to support and space, tight fit or set screws Thanks

HomeGrown
07-24-2008, 09:03 PM
HomeGrown What type of plastic do you use to support and space, tight fit or set screws Thanks

I use some sort of a UHMW material. Very much like a non-brittle type nylon.
I was originally planning on using roll pins (a.k.a. spring pins) but after drilling the holes with a standard wood boring bit, they were a perfect size with a nice snug fit. That saved a lot of headache with assembly/disassembly.

I got my 1/2" electrodes cut & prepped tonight, shortened the 3/4" tubes, and got all 7 cells assembled. I either need to make a new lower plate for the 1/2" tubes, or find some sort of spacer to assemble it with. Will probably opt for the latter, because it's easier.

Here's a pic of how the tubes go together with the zip tie spacers. Works pretty well, and really simplifies assembly.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/autocadder/CIMG5116.jpg

JDog Newb
07-24-2008, 09:42 PM
This is a very interesting discussion. I just read all the post here and almost forgot my question. If the positive is connected on the end, and the negative in the middle of the plate arrangement and you wanted to get more negatives, could you not just reverse your wires connected to your bolts going thru the top cap?

PS- I am greener that anyone on this site, so if I ask a dumb question, don't worry, I can take the jokes!!!!

Boltazar
07-24-2008, 11:09 PM
JDog Newb There are no dumb questions This is all new to everyone once

HomeGrown I'm trying to figure out how you connect the tubes to the electric, dyeing to see the results, LPM, Amps, Temp, keep us posted

HomeGrown
07-24-2008, 11:26 PM
Before the tubes are pushed thru the plastic pieces, I put a piece of stainless steel shim from each hole on the outer 6 tubes to the hole for the center tube, so all 7 tubes are electrically connected.

More to come...

Greenspank
08-18-2008, 08:55 PM
I want to get this stright... I used 1/4" stainless rod in pvc and used stainless washers and nuts to mash together 10 larger stainless washers in a plate design, one side + and one side -. I droped the contraption in water and hooked it directly to a car battery with a 15amp fuse. It bubbled... but I had no major hydrogen production. This thing would only last about 5min's before the fuse would burn. If I am reading this post correctly.. I am smarter I think. I need neutral plates to get the HH seperation?

I just found a place today that has all the stainless I'll need!
I'm bran freaking new at this...

JojoJaro
08-18-2008, 09:22 PM
I don't understand the appeal of using tubes for electrodes. It seems to me that it is harder to fabricate, harder to assemble, harder to wire together, and does not have that great of a surface area relative to the space it occupies.

Am I missing something? Why are tubes superior to plates, or cones?

c02cutter
08-18-2008, 09:36 PM
Actually tubes do offer the advantage of a lot of surface area to minimal space. This concept has been used, and successfully before. There are many ways to do it and it works. To do it is expensive, and takes the equipment involved to produce the cell. Not really a standard back yard mechanic design. Beautiful work I must say!!!

JojoJaro
08-18-2008, 09:51 PM
Actually tubes do offer the advantage of a lot of surface area to minimal space. This concept has been used, and successfully before. There are many ways to do it and it works. To do it is expensive, and takes the equipment involved to produce the cell. Not really a standard back yard mechanic design. Beautiful work I must say!!!


Yes, theoritically I suppose, tubes do offer more area, but only if you can really pack them tight together. Many tube designs simply do not do that.

Plates, you can customize to the size of your container and pack them tight.

I believe cones/funnels have the best 'Surface Area to Size' ratio. I am thinking of a design that will pack 480 sq.in of area into an 11" X 3" cylinder. I'd like to see a design that can achieve this level of density.

c02cutter
08-18-2008, 10:08 PM
The biggest issue is yes as you say space, but also manufactural possibilities of the person building, as I said, possible, but not something done without the proper equipment The biggest issue is yes as you say space, but also infrastructural possibilities of the person building, as I said, possible, but not something done without the proper equipment and I will add engineering. Still think and know from what I see, he has what it take to pull it all off.

daveinsingapore
08-19-2008, 03:25 AM
Yes, theoritically I suppose, tubes do offer more area, but only if you can really pack them tight together. Many tube designs simply do not do that.

Plates, you can customize to the size of your container and pack them tight.

I believe cones/funnels have the best 'Surface Area to Size' ratio. I am thinking of a design that will pack 480 sq.in of area into an 11" X 3" cylinder. I'd like to see a design that can achieve this level of density.

Having looked and studied HHO for the last 4 months and having taken note of all the developments over the last couple of years, there is a lot to be learnt. Yes surface area of the anode and cathode - no matter what shape they are...is the one of controlling factors to good quantity HHO production. Lets take a standard size container and consider the surface area possible from several differing styles of plates, tubes and other designs.

Using a 4 inch tube as a container, and building a electrode pack 8 inches high...you could use 16 guage plates (1.6mm) x 3" wide x 8" deep. If you jam in the most in 25 of them - you can set the plates 1/16" (1.5mm) inch apart and create 4 sets of 6 cell units in parallel - each set comprising of -NNNNN+, with these 4 sets sharing either the + or the -, looking something like this... -NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-, you would have a 2 volt drop between each plate. Understand we are looking at the 'active' surface area, that is between the plates...we end up with 48 surfaces of 3"x8" = 1152 sq"

Now if you use 3" discs set 1/16 apart...area per disc would be 7.07 sq" per side, 14.14 sq", and 11 sets of 6 plates would use 66 discs, set up as 11 units in parallel and giving a surface area of 919 sq". You could push the disc size up to 3 1/2" and get 1250 sq" for 66 discs.

When you look at cylinderical pipes/tubes considering what is available in tube/pipe sizes - lets look at .065 wall thickness, and available sizes of 3-1/2",3", 2-1/2", 2", 1-1/2" 1" and 1/2". I have worked with these tubes before and know what they are like...(part of my past life as a machinest-toolmaker)...the areas of the external and internal are slightly different but I can calculate them easily enough....totally you will get 583 sq" using 8" long tubes....sort of dissapointing really even though it would look really good, of course that was using a 1/2" as the inner-most tube that could be a shaft....however if you used a 4" stainless tube as the external housing and a negative electrode and not include the 1/2" tube/shaft you could end up with 733.8 sq" of surface area.
Note how ever - that you do get a discrepancy of balanced electrode surface areas when comparing the inner surface of the 4" outer tube and the external surface area of the 1" innermost tube...their surface areas are 97.26sq" and 25.13sq" respectively. There has been some discussion on this anomoly....but I do know that a lot people like this basic tube design. Note I am looking at these designs with 7 elements to give a 2 volt drop across each of the pair of electrodes...and mostly in a -NNNNN+ configuration.

Then there is the spirals....whether of not you use 1/16 wire, or 1/4 rod...it does not mean you will ever get enough area....I had done some calculations but gave up because there are so many variables...how many spirals to the inch, what diameter...etc...

and then there are the funnels....well how much area do each of those stainless sauce bowls have guys...I do not know cause I tend to not work that much with kitchen utensils when trying to make something that will work well in the garage....but it would be fun to have someone give us figures on the surface area these funnels/sauce bowls have....till then..go figure...we are after maximum surface area here right....well let the numbers do the talking....ciao for now...

JojoJaro
08-19-2008, 07:47 AM
and then there are the funnels....well how much area do each of those stainless sauce bowls have guys...I do not know cause I tend to not work that much with kitchen utensils when trying to make something that will work well in the garage....but it would be fun to have someone give us figures on the surface area these funnels/sauce bowls have....till then..go figure...we are after maximum surface area here right....well let the numbers do the talking....ciao for now...

The funnels I am working on (not the sauce bowls) are 10 sq in per side. I stack 25. This makes the height 10.5". Diameter is 3". Total square area is 480 sq in.

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 09:59 AM
How about spirals inside of tubes... Now your talkin.