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JojoJaro
08-18-2008, 10:15 PM
Folks, I am starting this thread to try to really get a good understanding of what makes a cell produce.

If I am understanding this correctly, current is the factor that affects production. The more current the more gas. Surface area will only come into consideration as it pertains to the 'Current Density'.

I've read that you should not exceed a current density of .5 Amps per sq. in. So, if your surface area does not exceed this current density, wouldn't surface area be irrelevant?

For example. If you have a surface area of 10 sq. in. You should not exceed 5 amps per the density rule. The question is, will you produce more by increasing your surface area to 20 sq.in. while maintaining current at 5 amps.

To me, having 20 sq.in. only means that I can increase my current to 10 amps thereby increasing my production. So, the benefit of size only comes into play as it allows me to pump more current. I don't believe there is anything inherently beneficial to surface area, only as it allows me to have more current.

Am I correct in my analysis?

timetowinarace
08-19-2008, 11:06 AM
Yep, I think you have it right.

sp1r0
08-19-2008, 12:15 PM
Try watching some vid's on youtube. lulu777, ammanninox, zerofossilfuel, sirhoax, just to name a few... Coil work done by ammanninox is very impressive.

JojoJaro
08-19-2008, 09:22 PM
Try watching some vid's on youtube. lulu777, ammanninox, zerofossilfuel, sirhoax, just to name a few... Coil work done by ammanninox is very impressive.


Hmmm... I watched some of the videos except the Lulu777 ones. I can't find those.

Anyways, seems like these design do produce but at a cost of excessive amps. Sure, if you put a lot of amps, most cell designs will produce impressively. But isn't the point, trying to come up with a design that will do better than 1 LPM per 10 amps and not overheating.

I've been looking for such a design but can't seem to find one. Any leads?

Phantom240
08-19-2008, 10:45 PM
10 amps isn't going to get you far without some serious thought. The traditional, "Open Bath" design probably won't get you 1lpm on 10amps. If you can find a way to make production more efficient, then have at it.

I'm thinking of building a smaller version of the cell I'm working on, and pumping the same current to it, but with plates MUCH smaller than what I'm working with now, to see how much surface area affects production.

sp1r0
08-20-2008, 06:25 AM
I can save you some time as I have made a simple plate electrolyzer with 6 plates. An observation I made after I added 6 more plates, the current doubled. As surface area doubles, current doubles with the same voltage. If you double the voltage with the same surface area, the current doubles.

JojoJaro
08-20-2008, 11:08 AM
I can save you some time as I have made a simple plate electrolyzer with 6 plates. An observation I made after I added 6 more plates, the current doubled. As surface area doubles, current doubles with the same voltage. If you double the voltage with the same surface area, the current doubles.


what was you original configuration? and after you doubled it?

+-+-+- and doubled to +-+-+-+-+-+-

+nnnn- and doubled to +nnnn-nnnn+

+nnnn- doubled to +nnnn- +nnnn-

Connected in series, parallel?

Jaxom
08-20-2008, 12:30 PM
This is something that's been on my mind lately as well. I really think that as long as you can keep the current density in check then more surface area won't do much good. It may help up to a point in that the bubbles won't get in each other's way as much when seperating from the plates, and it may help the electrodes dissipate heat, but those are the only possible benifits that I can think of. I look forward to some actual test results on this.

I've been seriously considering building a cell half the size of the one I have for this very reason. I figure my radial cell can handle 45-50A and I don't plan on running more than 20A since it's for automotive purposes, and a smaller cell will be far easier to mount.

Something to watch out for: you can't figure current density by the total SA in your cell, especially if you use neutral plates. You'll have to go by the SA of the smallest conducting surface. For example, if you have 7 plates at 3"x4" in a +NNNNN- config. then your total productive SA is 144sq.in. However, since the full cell current has to pass through both sides of all the plates, you'll need to figure current density using 12sq.in.

JojoJaro
08-20-2008, 02:19 PM
Something to watch out for: you can't figure current density by the total SA in your cell, especially if you use neutral plates. You'll have to go by the SA of the smallest conducting surface. For example, if you have 7 plates at 3"x4" in a +NNNNN- config. then your total productive SA is 144sq.in. However, since the full cell current has to pass through both sides of all the plates, you'll need to figure current density using 12sq.in.


Yes, current density is figured on the size of the cathode (negative electrode), becase this is where electron originate from.

jdv109
08-20-2008, 02:45 PM
Been reading here for awhile but first post so please bare with me.
I am running +_+(+)+_+ in series in distiled water with a little less then
4 oz of Roebic drain opener.
Hooked up to 12 volt battery and it showed 7 amps and put out about
4 oz lpm aftyer one hour down to 5 amps and dropping. I thought the amps should have went up?????
Anyone know what is happening???

Jim

JojoJaro
08-20-2008, 02:57 PM
Please stay on topic.

Post your question in the Q&A section. Mentors will answer them there.

Jaxom
08-20-2008, 06:03 PM
Yes, current density is figured on the size of the cathode (negative electrode), becase this is where electron originate from.


Makes sense, but if the cathode is smaller (i.e. in a Joe cell) then it's the limiting factor. Figure it by the cathode or anode, whichever is smaller.

Zarni
08-22-2008, 04:49 PM
I've also been looking at current density. The industrial ones seem to run around the 0.5A/sqcm but as I've only got a 10A power supply I shall be creating a set of plates that are 3cmx3cm giving 9sqcm and the possiblity of having over 1A/sqcm. I do wonder about plate thickness at that sort of density though ?!

Currently my plates are 95mmx125mm giving 118sqcm and the test are performed as close to 5A as possible (giving me some play when I get the electrolyte conentration wrong) but this only gives 0.04 ish A/sqcm which is really low, but it works for me.

Anyway just another point if you wanted to get 1lpm out of 10A you would need a cell running at 14v (a high alternator output) with an efficency of 7.14mmw which is slightly over what is claimed to be 100% efficency (or so zero says anyway), so you may find it a bit tricky to find a cell out there with that sort of output. My cell is only 3mmw at present but I'm still working on it. When I get it above 4mmv I'll post some info :)


-= Zarni =-

otrcomm
08-24-2008, 03:03 AM
Hello,

You might want to look at this page:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm

and then papers by Stan Meyer:

http://waterpoweredcar.com/stan.html

If I understand them correctly, Meyer was getting a 300% plus increase in hydrogen gas production not so much by size per se, but by creating a resonance between the power input into the system and the water molecules. The way I understand it, and I may be totally wrong, is that he built up a charge on the positive electrode like a capacitor and, at the same time starved the negative electrode. Then the only place that the positive charge could "find" a negative charge was from electrons in the water molecule. This is how he broke the water molecules apart. And it happened without any heat build up since there was not an arc between the positive and negative electrodes. Several people at the jnaudin site have replicated the Meyer system and have reported over 300% hydrogen gas production than is predicted by Faraday's "laws."

Dave Lawton has the best "translations" of Meyer's circuit diagrams that I have found:

http://waterfuel.t35.com/wf_meyer_lawton.html

otrcomm
08-24-2008, 03:07 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot to add, Stan Meyer didn't need an electrolyte like KOH, NaOH, or Baking Soda; he used pure water. And the people replicating Meyer's system are using pure water.